the rolling Final Crisis thread

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And why do I have the feeling it's going to be rolling for a good long while?

Five pages (plus Morrison's script!) up here: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20198161,00.html

I'm impressed. Interesting that Jones draws Montoya without her mask--that can't possibly be an artist's error.

Douglas, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 15:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

Should I resist or kowtow to the impulse to buy the FC spinoff minis -- I should've learned my lesson 10 times over (w/ House of M & the pre-Infinite Crisis armada & Civil War), but the fact that they actually have NAMES attached to these things now (even if one of them is, ungh, Johns) makes me wonder.

David R., Wednesday, 7 May 2008 15:50 (nine years ago) Permalink

Then again I think I'm on the hook for all the Secret Invasion minis, so I shd just stfu and swallow the pill.

David R., Wednesday, 7 May 2008 15:55 (nine years ago) Permalink

Nice art, but a bit decompressed, innit?

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 16:00 (nine years ago) Permalink

That's some good-looking stuff. Oddly Marvel-ish, too.

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 16:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

how can you complain about Johns and then buy into a Bendis event

AJ Styles, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 16:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

Nice touch with, uh, Officer Jack Kirby. And "Super Muk Muk".

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 16:15 (nine years ago) Permalink

how can you complain about Johns and then buy into a Bendis event

If Bendis had a crippling continuity boner (instead of a crippling Sorkin boner), then you'd have a point.

David R., Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

Bendis has a crippling shitty writing boner

How dare a writer give a shit about continuity, give me recurring characters with no cohesive characterization any day

AJ Styles, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:08 (nine years ago) Permalink

Interesting that Jones draws Montoya without her mask--that can't possibly be an artist's error

Although Morrison's script specifically mentions that she has no face. Miscommunication, artistic license, or maybe a last-second change that isn't reflected in the script?

Garrett Martin, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:08 (nine years ago) Permalink

and oh yeah - this looks awesome. this is the first time I've been genuinely excited for a huge cross-over thing since like Operation Galactic Storm or something.

Garrett Martin, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

I couldn't find the script pages - are they an active control under the pages, maybe? My work has that kind of fancy internettin' disabled.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

AJ: if this BENDIS SUCKS / JOHNS SUCKS thing blows up, it should go on another thread, so my last piece about JvB on this thread:

1) Continuity doesn't equal characterization (which you seem to be inferring), and it sure isn't a SUBSTITUTE for characterization (which is possibly my biggest beef wrt GJ)
2) One man's "giving a shit about continuity" is another man's "beat readers over the head with useless trivia"

David R., Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

above each preview page there's a line that reads "to see this page in detailed script-form (courtesy of Grant Morrison!), click here". clicking superimposes a page of script over the art. it's some crazy HTML shenanigans and probably easily blockable by work-folks.

Garrett Martin, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:39 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah, I don't see that. I'll have to check the script pages out elsewhere.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 17:47 (nine years ago) Permalink

Well, given that Jones drew all the 52 covers and was working from a full script here, I think miscommunication is unlikely...

Douglas, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 21:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

I don't even see the art!

energy flash gordon, Thursday, 8 May 2008 01:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

At least from the outside, I don't think the Final Crisis mini-series are directly tied to the actual plot of the Morrison series. They seem more like stand alone big DC Universe stories.

I think Final Crisis seems like it will have some ties back to some threads that were in 52 and Infinite Crisis. That whole thing with Libra in the DC Universe Zero seems to be maybe tied into the whole Crime Bible and Intergang thing.

Outside of Final Crisis, I know I am game for the Legion of Three Worlds story. The others maybe not so much.

earlnash, Thursday, 8 May 2008 02:00 (nine years ago) Permalink

There's no way to qualify this without sounding like a dick, but from what I've been told by a person who has actually read the first issue, Final Crisis has kind of a slow, moody start, and that it's very Morrison-y, but not exactly what people might expect from something called a "Crisis."

Good lord, I am sooooooo excited for Legion of Three Worlds. It's kinda ridiculous.

Mr. Perpetua, Thursday, 8 May 2008 02:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

not exactly what people might expect from something called a "Crisis."

Sounds good to me after the last two somethings called a "Crisis".

I too am jazzed for Legion of Three Worlds. I have been reading one or two Showcase Legion stories before bed every morning and am full of good Legion thoughts and ideas and I have a FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC idea for a 30th (or 31st) Century mini-series or sub-series that would fucking culminate my entire lifelong love affair with the DCU and Ultra Boy.

Dr. Superman, Thursday, 8 May 2008 04:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

Ultra Orgy On Infinite Legions?

Mr. Perpetua, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

man this better not be like Seven Soldiers

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 13:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

Do you mean "an awesome and deeply rewarding read" or "delayed beyond ridiculousity"?

Oilyrags, Thursday, 8 May 2008 14:00 (nine years ago) Permalink

"Pissing all over everything Morrison didn't personally create"

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 14:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

Um...what? Did you read the same 7S as me, AJ? I mean, it's not like he had Zatanna raping and eating Vigilante or anything.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 15:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

the whole New Gods thing, hence the image up thar

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 15:46 (nine years ago) Permalink

Well but the 7S version of the New Gods was just meant to be the facet/incarnation that Mister Miracle was interfacing with. Like, Morrison probably isn't going to be using DarkSuge in Final Crisis. Also, see the New Gods in Morrison's JLA.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 15:51 (nine years ago) Permalink

I'm just saying, Morrison has had some really dumb ideas in the past

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 15:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

Name me a writer that hasn't had bad ideas, and I'll bet that writer's either dead or retired (or you're a rose-colored fanboy).

David R., Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

Seriously. And let's be honest: Morrison has had way more (admittedly mostly underdeveloped) good ideas than 95% of people working in comics.

Also: I'd argue that Morrison's take on the Joker is one of the least dumb things about his Batman run.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

that Joker issue was AIDS in comic book form

if I recall it was so bad that DC offered refunds for it

Morrison's love affair with REIMAGINATION is fucking tedious at this point...I am all for new ideas but there's plenty of room to plant new seeds with out clear cutting the forest on the adjoining lot

or something

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

If re-imagination isn't your thing, AJ, I'd recommend reading stories set outside of an established universe.

P.S. Your argument is kinda leaky because:

= new seed.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:21 (nine years ago) Permalink

he wanted Zauriel to be the new Hawkman, actually

someone thankfully pulled him aside and was like "what no"

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:22 (nine years ago) Permalink

Ha - yes, that would've been criminal, epsecially given the lofty heights that Hawkman has realized since then.

David R., Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

the St. Roch Hawkman stuff was good

I dig Hawkman's current incarnation

but no let's make Hakwman an MAGIC ANGEL who can do ANYTHING

much cooler

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:27 (nine years ago) Permalink

also I'm sorry this happens to me all the time I forget that everyone else likes the Britishing of American comics

I like the whole color coded corps thing, moving along

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:30 (nine years ago) Permalink

I like the whole color coded corps thing, moving along

Yeah, we're definitely on "agree-to-disagree" turf now.

David R., Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

one day I will make a big ranty post about how the British have ruined hero books

today is not that day

also I was almost-but-not-really bummed that the Reach has nothing to do with the Color Corps thing

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:34 (nine years ago) Permalink

See, I thought the Fourth World stuff in 7S was <i>incredibly</i> respectful of Kirby--using Shilo Norman was a brilliant move. That's one of the things I love about Morrison's DCU work: he takes <i>everything</i> that's previously been published as canon, both story and characterization. It's like the basic rule of improv: you never ever contradict something somebody else has said, you just figure out an interesting way to build on it.

Other comics people with a notorious love affair with reimagination: Julie Schwartz (fuck a Silver Age), Stan Lee (why'd he have to go and do that to the Human Torch?), Alan Moore (Swamp Thing was so much cooler when he could turn back into Alec Holland), etc.

Douglas, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

sorry about the badly formatted itals there...

Douglas, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

See, I thought the Fourth World stuff in 7S was incrediblyrespectful of Kirby

Right? I think AJ's argument was a pretty simplistic "they didn't look like the New Gods, therefore Morrison is pee-peeing on Kirby" thing. The only real outright change I can think of in 7S was with Klarion, but it's not like Klarion had an intricately-woven tapestry of backstory to begin with.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:49 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah no Darkseid as the Kingpin that wasn't a change

but I was trying to move on

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 16:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

HEY GUYS -- CRISIS!

List of one-shots & minis (according to the Wiki page):

Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds (5 issues)
Final Crisis: Rage of the Red Lanterns (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Requiem (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Resist (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Revelations (5 issues)
Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge (3 issues)
Final Crisis: Submit (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond (One-Shot)

MUCH cleaner than Countdown (thankfully). Only 2 announced in-stream x-overs so far -- 1 issue of JLA to coincide w/ FC #1, and 2 issues of Batman following the whole thing.

David R., Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

I once saw AJ Styles wrestle at a redneck bar in Georgia in 2000. He was pretty awesome.

And you could easily make an argument about British writers not quite respecting traditional American superheroics, but Morrison is pretty much the last guy you'd ever want to mention in such an argument.

Garrett Martin, Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

Dude, AJ:

Hamburglar costume = Kingpin Darkseid, dude in Hamburglar costume = 4-REALZ Darkseid. GEDDIT?

MUCH cleaner than Countdown (thankfully).

Yeah, but wasn't Countdown originally intended to be much less unwieldy until DC figured out they could make lots of money crossovering the shit out of it? I don't think all of those minis and specials and ongoing series tie-ins were intended when it all first started, if I remember correctly.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

so it's going to be like that

also I thought Countdown Arena was a great idea, and then I actually read it

so who can know how this will turn out (answer: not as shitty as Secret Invasion)

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:39 (nine years ago) Permalink

Zauriel was a bad idea? I missed the memo. He might not have been sterling, but awful? Nah.

And yeah, if you want new ideas instead of reimaginations of franchise characters, superhero comics are largely not for you. Me? I can do without a lot of 'em, but when they're done very well, there's nothing that sings like 'em.

Not hugely excited over the idea of FINAL CRISIS, but I'll give it a couple of issues should I and they be in a shop at the same time (not a given with my schedule.)

Matt M., Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:56 (nine years ago) Permalink

xpost

Aw, I ain't tryin' to pick fights, AJ. You just seem to be the Anti-Me, is all. Which maybe isn't a bad thing at all, depending on who you ask.

Deric W. Haircare, Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

Are you British, Deric?

AJ Styles, Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

Yeah, but wasn't Countdown originally intended to be much less unwieldy until DC figured out they could make lots of money crossovering the shit out of it?

That'd explain the dodgy quality of most of the x-over shit, tho I can't imagine how DD & company thought books centered around Captain Carrot & obscure villians from the Giffen / DeMatteis run on Justice League EUROPE would actually sell. From what I remember from the Diamond Charts, most (if not all) Countdown minis sold about as well as a high-selling Vertigo title, which I'm guessing was a result they weren't hoping for.

David R., Thursday, 8 May 2008 18:01 (nine years ago) Permalink

But I still don't quite get it: why did Darkseid think he would need a dead copy of Batman? What use did he have for that, when he was about to conquer the whole world anyway?

WHOLLY EXTRAPOLATING HERE:

As a tool; the better to break morale, let's say. Clearly he's learned by then not to underestimate Batman (respecting his enemy enough to commission an entire army of clones from him, the better to bend and break break break the world), so, whilst the hunt for Batman continues, he can parade the bloodied corpse of this man, this...epitome of AWESOME, on a pike so as to permanently impress frowns on any remaining resistance, the ensuing river of tears being put to good use for his hydroelectric power plant...of Evil!

Plus I still don't get why he sent Batman back in time instead of killing him in the first place?

Clearly he expects him to die of smallpox within moments of arrival.

R Baez, Thursday, 25 February 2010 21:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

Or bcz that's how Omega Beams work? Also BOO AT TUOMAS for flinging spoilers for B&R#8 willy-nilly!

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Friday, 26 February 2010 00:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

Like someone said upthread, in previous Darkseid stories we've seen the Omega Beams can both totally erase someone out of existence, and send someone to live in alternate realities/histories. Here is an example of the former:

What I don't get is why Darkseid choose to do the latter instead of just terminating Batman's existence?

Sorry about the spoiler, I thought now that B&R #9 is out too, everyone would've read #8 already.

Tuomas, Friday, 26 February 2010 09:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

Whoops, sorry, this is the pic I was supposed to post:

Tuomas, Friday, 26 February 2010 09:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

uh but desaad was still around after that!

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Saturday, 27 February 2010 01:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, because Darkseid later resurrected him. But the Omega Beams didn't sent Desaad to some alternate history, they completely erased him. So saying that Batman was sent to the past because "that's how Omega Beams work" doesn't sound like a good enough explanation, because in previous stories they have been shown to kill people.

Tuomas, Saturday, 27 February 2010 12:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

From here:

Well one of the big questions that everyone is going to be asking is what exactly is the Omega Sanction. In Seven Soldiers, we saw the Omega Sanction transport Mister Miracle to a number of harsh realities until he arrives back seven days later. I could be wrong, but it also seemed like you suggested in Final Crisis #6 that Sonny Sumo might have been sent through time via the Omega Sanction. And of course, there's Bruce, who is sent all the way back to the dawn of man and the last days of Anthro when he's hit. So what is the Omega Sanction, and why does it affect people differently?

Morrison: It fires its victims through time. Originally, it sent people back to different time periods in Earth's past, as seen in 'Forever People', and then I came up with a version of it that actually reroutes the victim through a disorienting succession of different lives, each of which grows more hopeless and more horrible until your soul is dead. Kirby did the bouncing-through-time original and I made up the multiple-corrupted-lives adaptation for the "Mister Miracle" series.

It affects people differently because of the higher levels of cruelty shown by the incarnate Gods in Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis.

EZ Snappin, Saturday, 27 February 2010 16:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I know what the Omega Effect is and what it does, but I've been trying to say is that that's not all Darkseid's beams can do. In previous Darkseid stories it's been show he can also kill people with them. (He'd be a pretty weak-ass God if all he could do is zap people into the past.) And I don't get why he doesn't do that to Batman. That quote from Morrison doesn't explain it, unless Morrison thinks the Omega Effect is the only effect the beams can have.

I know this sounds like a minor point to complain about, but I thought the way Batman averted death in FC was weak. Darkseid has no reason not to kill him. And Batman's heroic sacrifice was probably the most awesome moment in the whole story, so it was kinda undermined by the revelation that Batman didn't die after all. And I really like the idea of Dick finally taking the mantle of Batman, and in Batman & Robin Morrison has managed to make Dick a likable character, who both works as Batman and is significantly different from Bruce. I'd have no problem with it if Bruce had actually died and Dick would become Batman permanently. I know this isn't something Morrison could've actually pulled off, but I just find this whole Bruce-is-not-dead-but-in-the-past thing a weak way of getting back to status quo.

Tuomas, Saturday, 27 February 2010 18:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

And I don't get why he doesn't do that to Batman.

Because then they couldn't do a RETURN OF BATMAN storyline.

there's a better way to browse (Dr. Superman), Saturday, 27 February 2010 20:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

Also, you seem to miss point of the cynical cruelty that is The Life Trap!

there's a better way to browse (Dr. Superman), Saturday, 27 February 2010 20:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

^^This. Erasing someone ends their torment - trapping them away from all they love and making them more and more miserable is a far greater punishment. Thus, he used the Omega Sanction vs the Omega Effect.

EZ Snappin, Saturday, 27 February 2010 21:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

earlnash, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, because Darkseid later resurrected him.

uh but Darkseid couldn't REsurrect someone if he had never existed! make sense, Tuomas.

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Sunday, 28 February 2010 07:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

I can't cite Kirby chapter & verse here, but:
Wiping someone out of existence is something Darkseid seems to do to his own minions (esp. Desaad) when he is annoyed by them. In his mind it's a petty punishment easily undone according to his whim. It reminds them of their insignificance in the stony face of Darkseid. Remember that the Anti-Life Equation, which Darkseid seeks above all else is not so much about destruction as it is about the domination of his will over everyone else.

there's a better way to browse (Dr. Superman), Sunday, 28 February 2010 17:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

Batman=Kenny!

that guy who doesn't get it but doesn't know he doesn't get it (M.V.), Monday, 1 March 2010 11:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

now that I've read #8:

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

Sorry about the spoiler, I thought now that B&R #9 is out too, everyone would've read #8 already.

Didn't they come out like a week apart?

Anyway also now I've read it, GRRR ARGH DC for not putting Final Crisis on the cover of the two issues of Batman that Morrison intended as part of Final Crisis (or collecting them in Final Crisis), and then being two years behind floppies in your TPB program [yeah I know there's a hardcover of RIP, but if you think I'm paying $40-50 for a hundred-some pages of Tony Daniel, you have been CRUSHED by the LIFE TRAP]

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 22:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

Both of them actually have "Final Crisis" on the cover! See http://www.comics.org/issue/536026/cover/4/?style=default and http://www.comics.org/issue/536027/cover/4/?style=default ...

Douglas, Thursday, 4 March 2010 03:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

those links don't work but argh! I guess the issues sold out in my shop then. they certainly weren't promoted as being proper parts of FC ahead of time though. or if they were, underline my TPB whinge.

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Thursday, 4 March 2010 06:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes. So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

Also, I don't really buy the "Omega Sanction is a worse punishment than destroying Batman" explanation. Not long ago, in Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, Darkseid had already witnessed that a strong-willed individual can escape the Omega Sanction. And he must know Batman is strong-willed enough, since he'd just escaped from an almost similar trap in Last Rites. So why, instead of completely destroying Batman, would he risk Batman escaping again, especially considering Batman had proven resourceful enough to almost kill him?

Tuomas, Thursday, 4 March 2010 15:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ego. Anyone can kill Batman, but Darkseid would be the first to break him. Darkseid wasn't ever interested in killing everything; he was always about domination. He needs his enemies to know he defeated them. When Darkseid kills an enemy it is to cause greater despair in that being's allies. Using the Omega Sanction on Batman and than dressing a clone in his garb achieves both - Batman will know the despair of being unable to help his friends and all he's fought for and the other heroes think him dead. Win-win.

EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 March 2010 15:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

Darkseid had no problem killing Mister Miracle in Seven Soldiers, though, after he'd escaped the Life Trap. And unlike with Batman in FC, in SS Darkseid totally had the upper hand, he could've done anything to Mr. Miracle, but chose to just shoot him.

Tuomas, Thursday, 4 March 2010 15:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

key - after he'd escaped the Life Trap.

If Batman comes back and challenges Darkseid we'll see what happens. The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people. You don't like what Grant wrote. We get it.

EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 March 2010 15:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think this is true. Unless I'm completely wrong, Darkseid's fall back in time is because of his "death" in Countdown to Final Crisis, not because of his actual death in FC. After Countdown he falls back in time into the "Dark Side" body he has in Seven Soldiers. In Seven Soldiers that body is still healthy, but in FC we learn that he has worn it out, which is why he needs to move into Dan Turpin's body. So the FC Darkseid is chronologically after Seven Soldiers.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people.

It's not even consistent with Morrison's previous usage of Darkseid... Anuway, my point was not so much to argue about DC lore rather than to say that the way FC dealt with Batman's much-advertised "death" felt like a cop-out. The Omega Sanction solution both undermined the dramatic effect of Batman's heroic sacrifice, and was kinda dubious from a character point of view.

Tuomas, Thursday, 4 March 2010 16:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

But he wasnt!

idk what Last Rites is but IIRC from one read of B&R #8 Darkseid says "okeydokey, flush all those dodgy tube-Batmen down the drain except one which we'll keep around in case"

so they flush the rest and then dress up the one they decided to keep as a cunning decoy

right?

also re 'much-advertised "death"' - Morrison repeatedly said over and over in RIP publicity that he wasn't going to die

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Friday, 5 March 2010 03:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

Okay, with the issue in front of me:

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes.

"DISPOSE OF THEM. ALL BUT ONE."

As I said.

So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

"A PERFECT COPY OF BATMAN, DEAD?

I CAN USE THAT."

Gosh you're right T-dogg, no reason at all to infer that Darkseid would have stashed his dead Batman clone in a Batman costume to make people assume it was Batman! What WAS I thinking?

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Saturday, 6 March 2010 10:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Er, my point was that the cunning decoy Batman corpse would've been kinda useless if the real Batman was alive and kicking, or if anyone saw what happened to the real Batman, so Darkseid must've somehow predicted that after Batman escaped he wouldn't join the other heroes, rather than come after him alone, which would give him the chance to send Batman into the past and replace him with the clone corpse without anyone else noticing. I guess it's possible Darkseid planned the whole thing like this, but it still seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Tuomas, Sunday, 7 March 2010 23:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I just realized that Final Crisis might've provided an answer to a question that always bugged me about the Rock of Ages arc in JLA. In that story, the time-travelling heroes must stop Superman from destroying the Philosopher's Stone/Worlogog, because its destruction will lead to the dark future where Darkseid has conquered Earth. What bugs me is that the story never explains why destroying the Worlogog would lead to this future, especially since there's no obvious connection between the Worlogog and Darkseid. However, in the end of Rock of Ages, the heroes give the Worlogog to Metron, and in Final Crisis #7, Superman discovers "Element X" in Metron's chair. Element X looks similar to the Worlogog, and Superman uses it to power the Miracle Machine, so I guess it's possible the dark future in Rock of Ages would've resulted from Superman not being able to use Element X in FC. However, there's a couple of problems with this theory... First of all, since Superman has seen the Worlogog before, wouldn't he have called it that in FC #7, and not "Element X"? Secondly, Supes discovers Element X only after he has (supposedly) sang Darkseid to death, so I'm still not sure exactly how the future of Rock of Ages would've happened, since Element X isn't used to kill Darkseid.

And speaking of unexplained things in Rock of Ages, can someone explain to me why, in the future Earth of that story, Orion destroys the universe after Darkseid had been defeated? That one bugs me even more than the Worlogog thing. Orion says he does it so that the universe will be free of "Darkseid's taint", but by that point the heroes had already defeated Darkseid and he was dying. So what was the point of destroying the universe?

Tuomas, Sunday, 7 March 2010 23:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

Darkseid didn't have to predict exactly that Batman would come after him alone after escaping from something not shown in the comic, he could keep his Batman clonepse around IN CASE an opportunity presented itself!

you live in a space battle homo cave (sic), Monday, 8 March 2010 03:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

I remain glad that I did not read anything Final Crisis related.

The New Dirty Vicar, Monday, 8 March 2010 17:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

You shouldn't be! It's not a bad series or anything, just a bit of a mess, even by Morisson's standards. But there are enough of cool and awesome moments to make up for the plot incoherence. And the Superman Beyond 3-D mini is simply one of the best things Morrison has ever written. IMO it's even better (and more fun) encapsulation of the major themes in his work than Flex Mentallo, and in half the space.

Tuomas, Monday, 8 March 2010 18:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 13:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pretty much. The whole thing is framed on characters like Anthro & Metron, who only show up to signify the gravity of the crossover. Show me one DC stan who has ever read an Anthro comic.

there's a better way to browse (Dr. Superman), Tuesday, 9 March 2010 16:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

ANTHRO is one of those great oddball late 60s titles that temporarily made dc a semi-interesting comics company, eg CAPTAIN ACTION, HAWK AND DOVE, ANGEL AND THE APE, THE CREEPER, BROTHER POWER THE GEEK etc etc. ANTRHO was written and drawn by a guy called howie post, who had a really interesting career in and out of comics and animation, and some issues were inked by wally wood! Far more interesting and entertaining than 90% of DC's usual superhero balls

Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 16:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

I've never read an Anthro comic and I didn't who the guy was when I first read FC, but it didn't matter, because his role in the story it's pretty obvious even if you have no knowledge of his history. Metron is another thing, but he's not a minor forgotten character, is he? I'm not that well versed in DC lore, but I had no problems getting what the various characters do in the story. If you have the basic knowledge on the major DC heroes (Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Flash) and know at least something about Darkseid and the New Gods, that should be enough. Knowing about some of the minor characters might enrich the reading experience, but what they do in FC is not hard to follow even if you don't know who they are. For me, a much bigger problem was that the plot had some holes in it and was sometimes hard to follow because of itself, not because of my lack of PhD in DC mythology.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 16:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Gah! No! FC proper is totally formulated to be self-contained. Yes, there are lots of obscure references that enhance the text if you understand them, but you aren't left in the dark if you don't. It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person (assuming that person has a generally competent level of reading comprehension, as that seems to be the biggest stumbling block w/r/t reading FC).

SNEEZED GOING DOWN STEPS, PAIN WHEN PUTTING SOCKS ON (Deric W. Haircare), Tuesday, 9 March 2010 19:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

You guys I am totally going to do my page-by-page explanatory walkthrough of Final Crisis as a video. No, seriously. In about a month. (I've been called upon to do it at a couple of parties already.)

Douglas, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 20:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person

Really? Even if I agree that it doesn't an extensive knowledge of DC trivia to read Final Crisis, I can't imagine anyone without a good knowledge of superheroes as a genre appreciating it. So much of it plays with, comments on, takes for granted, and deconstructs superhero comic conventions (and also specific conventions relating to Batman and Superman) that I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with those conventions. Take Superman Beyond 3D, for example: the whole thing is pretty much a meta-commentary on superhero stories. I can't imagine the bits about the Limbo of forgotten characters or about the alternate universes would make much sense even to a indie comic reader who's unfamiliar with superheroes, let alone to someone who hasn't read comics at all.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 22:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

someone get ready to edit in Tuomas every ten seconds going "but what about--?"

x-post Tuomas OTM

Lot, Heady & Regal! (sic), Tuesday, 9 March 2010 22:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

I guess the Limbo thing was better explained in Animal Man, where it first appeared, but if you only come across it in Final Crisis, you'll probably have to already know what the term "comic book limbo" means in order to understand that you're seeing a literal interpretation of the metaphor.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 22:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

As a casual comics Christian, I would definitely not recommend Final Crisis to me, let alone to a comics infidel. Maybe offer the All-Star Superman instead?

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 23:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'd definitely watch that walkthrough, Douglas! I still haven't figured out the answers to most of the questions I asked upthread.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 9 March 2010 23:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

what would be in the walk through? is it the kind of footnotes people do to those League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Comics, so people can get all the references to DC nerd stuff Grant Morrison drops?

The New Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 10 March 2010 17:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

the rolling Final Crisis thread

Lot, Heady & Regal! (sic), Wednesday, 10 March 2010 23:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

I pretty much never agree with Tuomas about anything but he's OTM about FC being near incomprehensible to non-DC comics nerds. It was near incomprehensible TO ME and I have more than a passing familiarity with most of the major characters (never heard of Anthro before tho)

Utopian Paisley Shirt Production Co. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 March 2010 23:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, I pretty much just tried to find a way to enjoy it without having to understand it.

Religious Embolism (WmC), Friday, 12 March 2010 00:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Has there ever been a big superhero crossover event that would be comprehensible to non-superhero readers though? When I first read Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was pretty hard to swallow too, because I didn't know much about pre-Crisis DC characters. These kind of series are essentially meant for the loyal fans, right? The only difference with Final Crisis is that it was written by someone with a large fanbase outside superhero readers, so some non-nerds have tried to grapple with it too.

Tuomas, Friday, 12 March 2010 08:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think the main story is generally understandable even if you don't know all the references. Even as a fan I still needed a ton of help (like Douglas' notes) to get them, though, and when you don't get those references, you can feel like you're missing a huge chunk of the book, both in plot and greater conception - then it can seem like a really scattered, badly jumbled adventure with too many characters with minor roles jumping in and out that isn't even as enjoyable as say, the original COIE, or various other clusterfuck crossover stories. (Bear in mind I REALLY dug FC!)

I don't honestly think any non-comics fan, or even a casual fan, is really going to get what Superman Beyond was about? Though I guess it's arguable how much it really matters/connects to the central Darkseid story.

COIE was pretty straightforward though, the only weird thing a casual reader would have to understand is the concept of the multiverse, but not necessarily who Huntress was. Other than that, I found it pretty easy to read through a year or so ago (with no memory of what was going on in the DC Universe in '86 or who many of the characters were). It's paced well over the 12 issues, and doesn't feel too overstuffed. FC was gettin' in all this stuff from previous Crises, the aforementioned crazy 60s comics, and the Kirbyverse!

Nhex, Friday, 12 March 2010 09:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

I found COIE literally unreadable. I think it was not so much the DC Universe stuff that melted my brane but the really fussy layouts.

The New Dirty Vicar, Friday, 12 March 2010 15:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

I reckon superhero crossovers could be theoretically understandable by a casual reader, so long as they had heard of at least some of the superheroes involved. I suppose the problems come in if you start bringing in ones that a serious fan would know but a casual reader would not - do you throw in loads of "as you and I know" dialogue for the casuals or just let them sink or swim?

The New Dirty Vicar, Friday, 12 March 2010 15:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

I have to re-read FC now, because I am convinced that you are all RONG. I do think reading some of the Morrisonian set-up books (52, Seven Soldiers, ASS, Animal Man, etc.) is helpful, and I would recommend reading those prior to FC, but I really do remember FC proper being among the most comprehensible of Morrison's works. It involves some close reading, but it does make sense. Douglas's notes were awesome, but I read them after the fact and didn't need them to sort out the what's what.

I dunno. If my girlfriend (who knows maybe slightly less than zero about anything relating to superhero continuity) makes it through Doom Patrol and is interested in reading more Morrison, I might see if she's up for testing my theory.

SNEEZED GOING DOWN STEPS, PAIN WHEN PUTTING SOCKS ON (Deric W. Haircare), Friday, 12 March 2010 19:37 (seven years ago) Permalink


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