the rolling Final Crisis thread

Because I am a fool:

http://finalcrisisannotations.blogspot.com/

You're a genius! I need a hand-holder for this thing.

Yeah, really. I'm more a DC guy than a Marvel guy, but all these millions of continuity thingies go over my head.

I'd just like to say that, although the Final Crisis Sketchbook is blatantly just Morrison and Jones get pissed in a pub and scrawl/draw on napkins, it has made me incredibly excited about the whole endeavour.

I'd just like to agree.

Being that I just gave it a read, I'd say Grant Morrison is probably going to reference some stuff in the JLA 'Rock of Ages' storyline. There are a whole lot of things in that story with Darkseid and the New Gods that seem to parallel what might be coming in Final Crisis.

Oddly enough in the next JLA trade 'Strength in Numbers' the concluding issue of one storyline is titled 'Seven Soldiers of Probability', which includes the Justice League trying to fix history as something has changed and Bruce Wayne never becomes Batman.

I've not finished Grant Morrison's run on JLA, so I don't know if the whole thing where "Earth needs to prepare for the big one coming up" was ever resolved. The New Gods are a big part of these two stories with Highfather sending Orion and Barda to join the league because of this preparation.

I think I need to break down and check out those Seven Soldiers series and give them a read.

Yeah, the big one turned up. It was a supermassive planet-destroying anti-sun sort of thing.

Interesting comparison...

http://www.ellroy.com/crimewave.jpg http://i.newsarama.com/dcnew/FinalCrisis/t_FCCv1bnewsarama.jpg

I want to believe.

But my lack of faith is indeed disturbing.

Kidd's done a bunch of Ellroy, but is that one him?

It is--see the bottom left.

http://sitb-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35leqb0GDX/Qx6GuKWqk329BduykRzMvKvsCTokFDUbobhSM8TpAJKDs6h

Recycling in action!

It's a great design tho, and it works better tweaked a little on FC

Not wanting to spoil anything much but:

- It read a lot better the second time, for me.

- I get the strong impression (and wasn't there an interview with someone basically confirming this?) that Grant M had a list of things he needed to be in place before the series started, and that the versions of those things ACTUALLY in place are either annoyingly or flagrantly different, so it looks like Final Crisis is just ignoring stuff that happened very recently. By the time the series ends people will have stopped caring about this I expect, but it explains some of the slightly dampened reaction and reviews.

- The early reviews seem also to be taking a "not much happens" line, which seems baffling to me until you realise they're (overtly or not) measuring it against Secret Invasion. Which I also like! But there's more than one way to do a crossover, and it's a shame if first issues now have to be slam-bang rather than slow build. Morrison's been pretty open about the structure of Final Crisis being basically a spike - things get worse and worse and worse and then evil wins, and presumably the remainder is evil un-winning again (or not, who knows). So no surprise that the stuff that happens - and LOTS happens - is mostly piece-moving and setting bad stuff in motion.

- That said I think GM's using some of his Seven Soldiers style pacing again - lots of epic shit is going down, but largely off-panel or briefly on while we look at the things which are going to be genuinely important. I think a lot of readers won't be expecting or wanting that from a 'summer event'.

- Lots and lots of great bits though - my favourite being the Alpha Lanterns double-page spread - and in a single sequence he's made the Monitors intriguing, even if it introduces a thing we'd surely have seen mentioned before. He's got the tone right, and the moments right, it's just a case of seeing how well things tie together.

- That said I think GM's using some of his Seven Soldiers style pacing again - lots of epic shit is going down, but largely off-panel or briefly on while we look at the things which are going to be genuinely important. I think a lot of readers won't be expecting or wanting that from a 'summer event'.

Yeah, I find this weird and a little offputting in a lot of GM's work. It keeps me at arm's distance away from being really emotionally engaged with the story.

can someone tell me who's waking up on the last page? i can't tell

also, i very much do not want the martian manhunter to be dead. this makes me feel like i have failed to become an adult in some meaningful way.

I actually liked that in Seven Soldiers, as I got much more emotional engagement by the camera staying with our heroes rather than zooming out to OMG invasion of the space-elves.

I'm pretty certain it's Nix Uotan waking up.

Never mind the Monitors, this is the first even vaguely interesting Guardians panel I've seen!

Jones kind of blew the first shot of the Black Rider, I think - it's not as clear as it should immediately be that he's just standing there in mid air.

I think Jones got the shot of the Black Racer </pedant> just right. I think it was meant to be subtle, and it was.

I read this immediately before the L O S T season finale, so I'll admit that I may have been a little too amped to make a rational judgment, but I kind of loved this a lot. Points:

-I think Morrison managed, in about half a page, to clarify and refine his use of the New Gods in the Mister Miracle mini into a pretty solid concept (although similar to the Outer Church fellows in The Invisibles). I knew what he was going for before, but it was a little muddled.

-Guardians as cosmic detectives is pretty rad.

-I was kinda dubious about the demise of Martian Manhunter until I remembered what he looks like nowadays.

-All the Monitor stuff and the 52nd Earth...that was all referring to Countdown, wasn't it? I don't have to actually read that shit, do I?

Two things not yet mentioned I liked:

- Supervillain protest march!

- "Ha! The first innnocent victims of the blindingly obvious Doctor Light/Mirror Master team!"

Pedantry acknowledged.

-All the Monitor stuff and the 52nd Earth...that was all referring to Countdown, wasn't it? I don't have to actually read that shit, do I?

Oh fuck, no. It had a new Monarch! Do you want to read about a new Monarch? No, you do not. Basically what you need to know is there on the page - 52 Earths, one of them goes boom, the emoest Monitor takes the fall for it. The only shorthand being used is that the different earths are linchpins of different multiverses.

Actually one thing I'm not clear on - is that Solomon(?) the eeeevil Monitor in the last panel of Monitorworld? I thought he'd been blatted (though if Morrison wants to say "no, it was this", then that's fine with me)

I have been wavering on the spandex lately, and this pulled through just when I really needed it. Many things delighted me, and y'know what, fuck a Martian Manhunter. His new costume is entirely shitty, and nobody's done anything fun with him in ages and maybe now that he's every fanboys favourite alltime character (as the newly deceased comic folks tend to become) they'll do a Sandman Presents style series of noir Martian Manhunter stories set in the 50s. All I really wanna know is how come there's no tribute display to him in the Batcave???

I READ ALL OF COUNTDOWN IN ONE DAY.

I understand that this makes me a slave of the Anti-Fun Equation. But I can confirm that Solomon the eeeeevil monitor survived, and in fact is behind the "sabotage" Nix U is protesting about - by sending the plague-infected Karate Kid to Earth-51 rather than "home" to New Earth as promised. In fact - though god knows I can't remember the "intricacies" of CD's plot - he or his stooge Bob The Monitor may have been responsible for Earth-51 getting destroyed the first time too, by Monarch's quantum energy breach. Solomon in Countdown was a rival to Darkseid and enemy of him, so I have no idea who he's talking to when he's talking into his hand at the end of that page.

The Monitors in Countdown were portrayed slightly differently to those in Final Crisis - no mention of the Orrery, enormous interest in what's going on in each Universe. But the backstory SEEMS to be that Solomon wants Nix Uotan off the table for some unrevealed reason. To do this he engineers the destruction - or severe compromise, anyway - of his universe, and then presumably agitates for his punishment.

Speaking as someone with little contact with the DCU, I have to ask: have the Monitors always been so...Arkwright-y?

There is no "always" w/r/t the Monitors. The Monitor appeared in the original Crisis 20 years ago and, as far as I know, never again until just after Final Crisis. The whole plurality of Monitors thing is pretty much all from Countdown, innit?

Annotated now: http://finalcrisisannotations.blogspot.com/2008/05/final-crisis-1.html

So I have now read FC #1. I thought it was the kind of continuity-heavy crossover rubbish that gives superhero comics a bad name, and I can't see myself bothering with #2.

I think you're 100% wrong, Vicar. There's a ton of continuity stuff in there, but it's all easter eggs. The story doesn't depend on knowledge of much more than what's spelled out or at least hinted at within the bounds of the story itself. I think Morrison did an excellent job of giving any potential newbies exactly as much information about the characters and situations as they'd need to make sense of what's going on. Re-read it and tell me that I'm wrong.

Douglas, I enjoyed the annotations, but did you actually like the comic?

There's a ton of continuity stuff in there, but it's all easter eggs.

I remember when I started reading superhero comics, it was actually kind of fun being confused by all the characters, and having to try and find out about them.

Also, Final Crisis wasn't that complex! It's a comic. It's just, you know, superhero biff-baff.

I've read issue one a couple of times, I don't really see anything that one would need to be read beforehand to get the issue. It seems to be set up more as a detective story than an action film. I've got a feeling that it is going to be very self contained for this kind of comic story.

JG Jones artwork is really lush. The panels with the Guardians and Monitors were really great, that guy can really do some cool cosmic comic looking stuff.

I liked it a lot. Actual review to follow, prob., on Savage Critix...

I'll re-read it sometime when I'm sober.

The second time reading through FC #1, everything was clear and awesome and made sense, except for dispatching J'onn J'onzz in such a non-dramatic way, making this insanely powerful guy seem like a chump.

Alright, Douglas. Here's my list. Admittedly, some of my questions are probably because there are unrevealed things in the comic, but I can't distinguish [between the intended secrets and unintended ones] because there are so many unrecognizable things to me. Also, it seems to me that a lot of Morrison's "poetic liberties" are confusing me. So... here's my reading of the comic. (If I didn't mention it, I probably understood it. Or understood it *enough* to not be totally lost.)

Ok. It opens with a caveman. Suddenly he's interrupted from his regularly scheduled events (foraging, hunting, assumedly) by a glowing blue guy in a floating chair. He says that he is Metron. It's not in a word bubble, but a funny-looking bubble. So I assume he's communicating telepathically. Probably in the caveman's language. He then gives the man fire. Next, we see a bunch of cavemen beating the shit out of each other, some guy is dragging some gal away by her hair - standard caveman stuff. Then the guy from before comes and he's wielding fire. He's totally badass, and lights the whole place up. It's unclear why - maybe he's pissed with everyone. Maybe he loathes himself - he's a self-hating caveman. Maybe it's his way of demonstrating power. (Question one: Why is he burning everything?)

Now we've got the slightly overweight guy. Today. He's smoking a cigarette and it's a noirish monologue. He finds a super muk muk in the garbage. I have no idea what a super muk muk is. (Question two: What is a super muk muk?) The muk muk is not dead tho - he jumps up and shouts some vague warning ("He is in all you") and then falls down again.

Stewart lantern is called to the site where the detective found the muk muk. The Detective says that seeing this is like sacrilege. (Question 3+4: What is it that he's seeing that is disturbing him? Why is it sacrilege?) It looked like it was day when we last saw the detective, but now it's night and the sky is full of red lightning. (Question 5+6: Has the detective been standing around doing nothing while it became dark? And what the hell is that weird lightning?)

What does "six" mean? Is it a noir term for a corpse? (I've seen a lot of noir flicks, but I don't recognize it.) Maybe this is the sixth body he's found? Why does the detective thank the Question for helping him, when it seems like Question only asked him a question? What does Dark Side Club signify? (This is questions 7 through 9.)

What does "deep and dreamless" mean? Does it mean Hal Jordan was sleeping? Or is there some greater significance? It sounds like poetry that is supposed to sound good, but doesn't actually mean anything.

I know who Sparx is (from Superboy and the Ravers) but I have no idea what's going on with her here. What are they looking for? Who is this empress? If this was a trap, does that mean the empress's vision was manufactured by some villain?

"waiting 50,000 years for vandal savage to crush..." I get that this probably relates to the opening sequence with the cavemen, but I don't understand it. Who is Vandal Savage? Is this just another piece of poetics?

What does M'YRI'AH mean?

What's the deal with these missing kids? Who is Granny? Am I supposed to recognize this kingpin'esque figure in the club? (I know what the anti-life equation is, so I can guess that maybe this guy is a physical personification of Darkseid, or something. But what does the murder of the muk muk from earlier have to do with these kids he's brainwashed?)

I don't know anything about Earth 51, or who these monitor guys are. What's their job? To save realities? What is the orrery? Obviously something has changed for these guys, but since I don't know who they used to be, I don't really understand what's going on with them now that's special.

Back to the caveman, and suddenly there a statue of liberty behind him (wtf?) and some guy is asking for the weapon Metron gave him. (The fire?)

Some guy wakes up. I have no idea who he is.

A few answers:

Vandal Savage is an immortal supervillain who's kinda badass, especially during the early part of the Wally West Flash series (i think the first 15 issues or so?) where he makes a super-speed steroid called Velocity 9 and fucks shit up. He's seen in the cavemen scene in FC 1.

M'yri'ah was the Martian Manhunter's wife on Mars.

Also, read Seven Soldiers (esp. the Mr Miracle stuff) for an intro to the New Gods avatars theme Moz is working with here.

Bah. I read Shining Knight, Guardian and Zatanna, but couldn't force myself to read the other four. I guess I should probably do that?

You missed Frankenstein!

anyway, they read quite well in the trades, yr local library might have 'em.
and the Muk Muk was Orion, Darkseid's son who was raised on New Genesis by Highfather in a trade for Mr. Miracle--who was raised on Apokalips by Granny Goodness, who raised kids in the service of Darkseid at her orphanage and that answers another of yr questions.

The Detective is "Terrible" Turpin, a cop from Kirby's 70s New Gods comics, who here takes on many qualities of Kirby himself.

I think most of these questions (and more) are answered on Douglas's Final Crisis blog, but I still think it's good to have some discussion here, or else we might else all just meet up over there and try to sort it out.

It is, unless I'm very mistaken, absolutely irrelevant that it may or may not be Vandal Savage in the opening sequence. All you need to know is that he's been around along time, and periodically tries to take over.

The Caveman is burning stuff because he's just been given the knowledge of fire, and is demonstrating it in the most visible way possible, driving away those that have good reason to distrust him (it's not clear whether it's an invasion or just a Friday night, but he's putting a stop to it)

Muk muk is just slang for someone high up, short for muck-a-muck (though I suppose if you didn't know that piece of slang you'd have to take it from context).

It feels like sacrelige because he's looking at a dead god in a dumpster.

Fair point, the red skies are a throwback to external knowledge, in that it also happened in Crisis on Infinite Earths (I don't actually know if there was an explanation for it except that it's a great shorthand for a) something that everyone in the world can see and b) after the continuity was straightened out, all that almost anyone remembered was that the skies turned red, which was creepy).

Turpin's "six" are the six kids that he was looking for when he found Orion. I think you've become confused about whether he's investigating the deicide - he's not.

The Question gave Turpin a lead (it should in fairness be clearer that the dialogue on panel two is from the Question rather than Turpin). We (and Turpin) don't necessarily know what the Dark Side Club is yet.

Deep and dreamless is sleeping, yes.

Empress is the name of the lady in red (did she start in Young Justice?), the object they are searching for is Metron's chair, which is occupied by Libra in the next scene. It's a relic of considerable power, so it makes sense that more than one group would be seeking it.

The monitors monitor realities, one of them went south, it's monitor mis taking the rap for it. The guy who wakes up on the last page is him as a human.

Questions that are (as far as I can tell) supposed to be unclear at this stage*:
What is Orion talking about?
Why is Metron's Chair empty?
Who is Libra?
Is Martian Manhunter dead?
Was there something special about the six kids, or was Darkseid just looking for the best and brightest?

*I don't mean that they're unanswerable based on the entire knowledge of the DC Universe, but they're not in this issue, and we can have a reasonable expectation that they'll be cleared up in a further issue of Final Crisis.

So when monitors "die" they wake up as human beings? How does that work? And why would a monitor be punished for his Earth going south? If you're a monitor, you're just supposed to monitor it - right? What's your liability?

Also, when Turpin is attacked by the kids, there are eight of them. Does that mean he only knew about six? It seems confusing on Morrison's part to have Turpin searching for six and then throwing in two more without explanation.

So when monitors "die" they wake up as human beings? How does that work? And why would a monitor be punished for his Earth going south?

As noted above, the Monitors have only existed in a plural sense for maybe most of a year, and have only been used in one other series, to my knowledge. There is no pre-existing cosmogony here.

Have you read much Grant Morrison stuff before?

Martian Manhunter is definitely dead.

I've read All Star Superman, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Batman, we3, Seaguy, New X-Men, JLA v.3, the parts of Seven Soldiers I indicated above, Kill Your Boyfriend, and a bunch of Invisibles.

(I should clarify with the Batman - I'm reading his current series and I've read Arkham Asylum.)

And Animal Man + New X-Men were both of my top 10 runs of all time list.

MARTIAN MANHUNTER IS NOT DEAD

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

Honestly, at this point it's more of a mercy killing. Aside from Rucka in Checkmate I can't think of a single writer who's done anything decent with him in ages. This just puts a stop to the terrible stories he's been in lately and gives whoever inevitably revives him a few years down the line a clean slate to work with.

The monitors appear to have become more involved in their worlds (kind of like Marvel's watchers). As noted the penalty for Nix Oatan's failure is exile, being stripped of power and duties, to live out the rest of his life as a human. As also noted, there are divisions within the monitors about whether this is fair, and one in particular appears to have been manipulating the situation to remove him.

I mean, if you want to know how all this happened, you have to read Countdown, but the fact that it happened seems to me to be right there on the page.

I thought the extra kids were there to indicate that Darkside has been using many of them, not just the ones Turpin's looking for, but I'm possibly wrong.

The one thing that I think is both unclear and unexplainedly important: Earth 51 wasn't destroyed at the end of Countdown, but all the humans except a young boy died. This presumably makes it the setting for Jack Kirby's series Kamandi, The Last Boy On Earth. And so what we're seeing on the last two pages is the dude from the start (apparently his name's Anthro) copying the markings from Metron's costume, and catapulting himself through space and time to Kamandi's world, which explains his agitated reception. I might be completely off-base here, of course.