A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

lol at 'somebody saw this coming 28 years ago' fuck is he on

the bitching on the cos thread starts here

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

As others have noted, he suggest that indie rockers because of "racial sensitivity" are not trying to incorporate African-American influences, but compliments Eminem, and ignores the attempts of Linkin Park and Maroon 5.

Bill Cosby defents criticism of Hip Hop...music industry "glorifies the wrong things..."

― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

5. Lil Wayne. "Believe the hype and then multiply it by ten. You are going to feel dumb if you realize in five years that you were too cool to enjoy the dataflow."

― and what, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

Several groups that experienced commercial success, such as the Flaming Lips and Wilco, drew on the whiter genres of the sixties---respectively, psychedelic music and country rock...

Psychedelic rock was pretty white in terms of the players, but not the sounds: most psychedelic records in the US were totally blues based, and lots of them in the UK and elsewhere as well (we're leaving Donovan out e.g.). Ditto for country rock in the 60s: listen to the first Flying Burrito Bros record and you'll hear not just blues sounds but soul covers. So this claim is pretty blatantly false.

― Euler, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

What the hell is Bangs to have supposed to have seen all those years ago? that a genre sfj basically limits to folkies and brian wilson fans wouldn't have much to do with rap?

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

have you read the Bangs article?

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dude, I first read it in high school.

You remember last year when everybody got all mad at me? If that was—to choose a physical analogy—a rowboat, on Monday we launch the QEII. All I will say is this: listen to the podcast before you write your scathing letter. But by all means—write it. Or anything.

Ok, now I actually feel bad for encouraging this guy.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

and uh, no I won't listen to your podcast, your article's a pretty shitty ad for it.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

have you read SFJ's article, Mr. Que? It really has nothing to do with punks being ignorant and making bad jokes.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

so. . .you don't see a connection between what Bangs said and what SFJ is saying?

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

But by all means—write it. Or anything.

haha sfj knows he's safe with this one, most of the ppl who hate on him can't be bothered to run any deeper than one-line bitch-outs on message boards

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

he doesn't have a comment box, dude. and evidently i have to listen to his podcast to have an opinion he wants to hear. that's just cruel.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

and this piece is so haphazard and pointless I really don't see how one can "run any deeper" on it without putting a point in his mouth.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

you seem awful ticked off, dude. maybe you should try and articulate what's cheesing you off so much instead of bitching about podcasts and remembering good old high school days.

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

I put a link to the thread where I already did, first post on here.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

x-post- Bangs cited specific examples of white punks exhibiting racist behavior. SFJ criticizes Arcade Fire and Wilco for not being rhythmic enough in his article, yet by linking to the Bangs article he is seemingly trying to suggest more. But alas, he has no quotes from Tweedy or Win Butler or whomever saying at a party, "Sasha why you playing that Lil' Wayne'. He lists his e-mail address on his blog btw.

As I watched Arcade Fire, I realized that the drummer and the bassist rarely played syncopated patterns or lingered in the low registers. If there is a trace of soul, blues, reggae, or funk in Arcade Fire, it must be philosophical; it certainly isn’t audible. And what I really wanted to hear, after a stretch of raucous sing-alongs, was a bit of swing, some empty space, and palpable bass frequencies—in other words, attributes of African-American popular music.

There’s no point in faulting Arcade Fire for what it doesn’t do; what’s missing from the band’s musical DNA is missing from dozens of other popular and accomplished rock bands’ as well—most of them less entertaining than Arcade Fire. I’ve spent the past decade wondering why rock and roll, the most miscegenated popular music ever to have existed, underwent a racial re-sorting in the nineteen-nineties. Why did so many white rock bands retreat from the ecstatic singing and intense, voicelike guitar tones of the blues, the heavy African downbeat, and the elaborate showmanship that characterized black music of the mid-twentieth century? These are the volatile elements that launched rock and roll, in the nineteen-fifties, when Elvis Presley stole the world away from Pat Boone and moved popular music from the head to the hips.

Sasha used to love Arcade Fire I thought. He wrote a prior New Yorker article all about them and that show he saw over in London. As others have noted there have been indie bands since the early '80s that did not swing; blues (except for Fat Possum style, Otis Taylor, & chitlin circuit soul) has been transformed by anglos mostly into cliched barband rock; the heavy African downbeat is being kept alive by older African musicians mostly; sometimes Sasha interchanges the term "rock n roll" for indie here without examining non-indie bands; and shouldn't he have said that "African-American rappers" and not "Black musicians" "are now as visible and as influential as white ones. They are granted the same media coverage, recording contracts, and concert bookings" (Non-American black musicians who are not rap or r'n'b are not famous). In his discussion of great live performances he focusses on comparing current indie acts to long-ago African American ones-James Brown and the Meters (there's also no discussion of the muddled embrace jam bands have given to African-American music)

― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

There's already been evidence that SFJ reads ILX threads about himself (and judging by his blog posts he's DYING to) so there's really no reason to e-mail him.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

There's already been evidence that SFJ reads ILX threads about himself (and judging by his blog posts he's DYING to) s

LOL, what are you the Sherlock Holmes of the Internet?

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

da croupier that chip is makin' you look like you're wearing shoulderpads or something

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, just as he's ignoring all the rock bands that aren't "indie rock," he's ignoring all the indie acts that aren't "indie rock" (the stuff that tends to make his best-of lists). He's stacking the deck to a ridiculous extreme.

x-post hey mr. full disclosure feel free to actually acknowledge the complaints rather than settling for "u mad"

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

"All I have is one-line bitch-outs. This is the fault of the piece I am bitching out."

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

especially if you're gonna complain about "one-line bitchouts on message boards"

x-post!

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dude with respect it's hard to parse what your complaints are through the foam 'n' froth you're bringing here. Here, let me acknowledge this complaint:

lol at 'somebody saw this coming 28 years ago' fuck is he on

Incisive, penetrating criticism there, da croupier, aka the dude who has the nerve to accuse somebody who actually posts under his name of having disclosure issues

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

da croupier, if it will make you feel better go ahead and articulate your positions, or complaints. basically as far as i can tell right now your position is: "LOL SFJ Googles himself and didn't write about 311, LOL."

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

curmudgeon did you the favor of detailing the flaws of the piece in a full paragraph, John. Feel free to respond to it if you think there's no meat.

Mr. que, there was some thread ripping on him a year or so ago and his response-to-the-haters on his blog had some pretty direct references to it.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

so?

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah he ain't you so the line about one-line bitch-outs still sticks man, "co-sign" doesn't count as critique

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol i found ilx through sfj's blog

― jhøshea, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dude, you said "lol what are you sherlock" when I said I didn't have to e-mail him to know he'd see the complaints here. I'm just explaining.

da croupier, aka the dude who has the nerve to accuse somebody who actually posts under his name of having disclosure issues

Hahaha your name is "John D"?

x-post I'm sorry you're disappointed with the brevity of my disses, John. Still feel free to explain what aside from that and their perceived rancor is ill-minded about them.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

this thread deserves better than you, da croupier.

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'm sorry i'm interrupting your contributions to it, Mr. Que.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

four-year-old thread on same subject, featuring actual thought and exchange of ideas, here:

Class, etc Pt. 2: Indie vs. Pop Culture

bonus fact: thread was started by sfj

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

so what do you like about the article, john?

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

let us exchange thoughts and ideas about it, rather than this unbecoming sniping

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

(The heavy bass frequencies cause car seats to vibrate, literally massaging the passengers.)

― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

Not attempting to derail the discussion, but: how about some counter-examples in response to SFJ's argument? What are some indie acts that swing, etc.?

Just axing

― Brad C., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ignoring his conflation of "rock'n'roll" with "indie rock," his "best-of" lists on his site provide the names of plenty of indie acts that swing as much as the Stones did, especially if we're allowed to include indie dance acts.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

you're not talking about the article yet.

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean, if we're talking about "indie" not "rock," then you have to acknowledge groups like LCD soundsystem, unless by the very act of having a dance beat you're disqualified from the genre, which would make his point fairly moot.

x-post I'm really baffled as to how you and John can keep chastising me for not saying anything when I'm throwing a lot more effort into it than either of you.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

i believe anthony's complaints are roughly mine, i.e. that even for a position i might agree with at times (that indie rock shouldn't be so scared of dr. funkenstein) this is a poorly constructed piece of rhetoric that falls apart before it gets anywhere near a finish line but that most egregiously ignores the fact that in many ways indie rock is more connected to "rhythm" than it has been in quite some time (coughcoughDFAsashayouchoadcoughcough). and that john and mr. que's weird pile-up mostly seems born out of unwilling to do the unpacking of the SEVERAL YEARS WORTH OF DISCUSSION WEVE ALREADY HAD ON THIS TOPIC including THE SAME SHIT SFJ TRIED FOISTING UPON US A FEW YEARS BACK CIRCA EMP TIME that anthony has managed to squeeze into his "one-line bitchouts" ala "basically limits to folkies and brian wilson fans" i.e. get the fuck out of here with that reductionist bullshit, to say nothing of the reductionist bullshit that automatically comes from "where has it gone, the fonky fonk of my youth," i.e. putting "black rhythms" up on a pedestal, or ignoring that the vast majority of 70s and 80s white folks music was about as funky as starland vocal band or goddamned wang chung, which also ignores that maybe wang chung and starland vocal band had something to contribute to popular music despite not sounding like either grand funk or the isley brothers.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

i could kiss you all ovah

― da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

royal trux
spoon
ween

― jhøshea, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

wow, strongo on fire & otm!

da croupier is anthony miccio for those keeping score at home

― gershy, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

da croupier, it's not a question of liking or not liking it, I haven't really even thought that hard about it. I'm just sick to death of people reaching, at the earliest convenience, for dismissals as lame and phoned-in as "I'd criticize it if it were coherent!" and so on - it's the sort of thing you see on political blogs, lefties patting themselves on the back for their namecalling skills and righties spitting venom without any particular analysis of their targets, on the grounds that the targets "aren't worth" a thoughtful dismissal instead of ad-homs, nice zings, etc. It's worthless on political blogs and even more pointless when talking about music, though I would say that, since I care a good deal more about music than about politics.

Brad I'd suspect, just knowing sfj's tastes a little, and reading between the lines here (Clash reference, racially loaded words like "miscegenation"), that he's waxing a little nostalgic for stuff like Ludus or Cristina or Essential Logic even New Order: stuff that was in conversation with other genres, not always successfully but interestingly. Which is where his article doesn't go: making an "interesting" record, one that doesn't firmly place itself in one recognizable genre, is something of a risky business move; the more cross-genre an artist gets, the less likely he is to find an audience quickly, and a lot of people feel like if you don't find your audience fast, you're liable to miss the boat. I think he's lamenting how even when a band is said to be "taking risks," they seldom are, and that there was a time when more bands actually did take risks that might have alienated them from their audience but which made for exciting records.

My own position here is that I'm always very suspicious of any "it was better then" thinking. I hate eighties nostalgia with a fucking passion, even though there was a lot of music made in the eighties that I love intensely. But I also don't think it's necessarily a nostalgia trip to talk about stylistic shifts, and with respect to indie rock, it has failed/did fail to seek out the sort of musical cross-pollination that often makes music exciting. Purism's only good at extremes I think, and extreme indie rock is something of a contradiction in terms.

Just thinking aloud/onscreen here and doubt I could defend all this loose stuff but that's my first response.

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha I had no idea da croupier was anthony

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

the comparison with the white noise supremacists is cute but mostly seems like a lame attempt to draw unfounded connections with a rather virulent strain of direct racism on the cbgb's scene with OMG MUSICAL RACISM THE SILENT KILLER, as if win butler not being bootsy collins is somehow the same as someone writing songs about gooks or a member of teenage jesus hurling the n-bomb at an african-american kid, i.e. it seems to be suggesting that the arcade fire are somehow at some kind of <i>fault</i> for reflecting the music which interests them rather than some idealized polygot mutant sfj has in mind because his wig got flipped as a 13-yr-old to sandinista, which seems about as silly as castigating trae or ne-yo for not incorporating the majesty of born to run into their own little musical worlds. lol you ain't white enough.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

i should note that i'm about five beers deep here

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have no beer and I must scream

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay okay i think he's right on the money as to why Wilco and Arcade Fire are so boring. Especially this part:

If there is a trace of soul, blues, reggae, or funk in Arcade Fire, it must be philosophical; it certainly isn’t audible. And what I really wanted to hear, after a stretch of raucous sing-alongs, was a bit of swing, some empty space, and palpable bass frequencies—in other words, attributes of African-American popular music.

But then again, I'm sure he digs Spoon and LCD, and both bands certainly do these things (empty space in their songs, swing) so I don't know. He doesn't talk about either of those bands in the article, so maybe he realizes this? Also, Arcade Fire are really easy to make fun of, so i dunno.

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

Black people: you're alright by me.

― Dom Passantino, Saturday, 10 May 2008 15:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

glad that's cleared up

― Morley Timmons, Saturday, 10 May 2008 17:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

was worried for a minute there!

― max, Saturday, 10 May 2008 17:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

don't be a hatter

― The Reverend, Sunday, 11 May 2008 02:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

Sally and Dom give me ample opportunities to translate rap lyrics, reggae songs, and/or street slang! Like I'm a mouthpiece for many, many cultures of dark-skinned people.

― The Reverend, Sunday, 11 May 2008 02:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

There is white people music and black people music simple as that...there will always be a seperator because both races can never agree on musical stylings...

More importantly, Indie music is not void of African influences. It in fact takes the roots of the african sound, and cuts out the middle man. You could say it has no African American influences, but once again Rock and Roll was formed upon African America music.

Not to mention some of the biggest Indie bands have african influences and even black members. See: Tv on The Radio, The Ruby Suns, Vampire Weekend, Islands, The Arcade Fire, (Does no one realize that Reggine is black? not in skin but in blood SHE HAITIN....theres a song called Haiti on the first fucking album..jesus) Iron and Wine,

the list goes on and on and more importantly Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...

the whole idea is absurd as fuck.

― wesley useche, Sunday, 11 May 2008 07:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

The Ruby Suns? What?

― Niles Caulder, Sunday, 11 May 2008 07:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

The Ruby Suns rock.

― wesley useche, Sunday, 11 May 2008 07:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

SHE HAITIN

― The Reverend, Sunday, 11 May 2008 08:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...
Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...
Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...
Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...

― J@cob, Monday, 12 May 2008 11:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

Britney can i get your sister jame spears Email why because SHE HAITIN

― Savannah Smiles, Monday, 12 May 2008 12:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

A SFJ book on this?! Whatever happened to that rap producers one he was working on?

From an Adam Rosen interview with SFJ in Gelf magazine

http://www.gelfmagazine.com/archives/the_new_yorker_gets_pop_cultured.php

GM: You took a lot of flak for your article, "A Paler Shade of White." What do you think was the most valid criticism leveled at you?

SFJ: It was too compressed, so the shorthand did damage. Black-and-white anything—music, in my case—is difficult to discuss because people instantly move from the part to the whole. An aspect of black music becomes all black music becomes black people. This is why there's that slightly awkward phrase on the first page (parodied by the Voice the following week) about sway and bass frequency. I was bending over backwards to try to restrain that point to purely formal attributes, but I am not sure the essay is consistent enough, or specific when it needed to be. I had the same problem with indie rock and mainstream rock. The lines between the groups being discussed weren't clear enough, and hip-hop ended up sounding like a proxy for all black music.
Also, the timeline is off — the shift I was focusing on was really a '90s process. It's a flawed piece; this is why it's becoming a book, as it needs expansion. The experience of being wrong (or sloppy) in public was really fruitful and got me thinking about the critical voice, in general, and how rarely popular critics go back and say, "Hey, I got this wrong." Why don't we? There is also an autobiographical story I need to sort out.

GM: Well…why don't you?

SFJ: That's what the book is going to be, in part.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 September 2008 01:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

reading through some of this thread...it's time for my opinions (oh boy)
(disclaimer: have not read year-old article tho most of it has been reprinted here blah blah etc.)

if sfj is wondering why white rock doesn't have any black influences, then he's unfortunately up a creek...rock music has always been such a mishmash of white and black sounds and concepts that to try to even separate and differentiate the two threads would take a man with a substantially higher IQ than sfj (whose IQ is prolley substantially higher than mine btw) to pull off...as a thousand plus posts right here would make evident.

if sfj is wondering why there aren't any great records nowadays like Y, Cut, Dragnet, Entertainment, Unknown Pleasures, etc.: well duh..I wonder the same thing often myself.

if sfj is wondering why indie rockers are turning up their noses at contemporary mainstream R&B, well, then...

bcz the most resonant excerpt from the article is Win Butler at a party wondering why sfj put on Lil Wayne...I mean, I imagine that rock&roll in the 50s was v. likely what mainstream pop is right now: loud, obnoxious, hysterical, unapologetic in its uniform desire to express/inhabit/embody teenage kicks, and most importantly almost universally derided by the world as pure unadulterated adolescent trash...I mean, we like Soulja Boy and T-Pain, but most people, esp. parent, to them it's crap...and Wim Butler falls into that category, and it kinda freaks sfj out.

Beatles Analogy: We can all read Shout! and cheer on Lennon for being a Teddy Boy, obssessed with Elvis, Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, well into his tenure at artschool, while his classmates were into farty bigband jazz, and we watch with pleasure as all that jazz is washed away by the deluge, but fast-forward 50 years later and it turns out that sfj looks out into the crowd and sees a bunch of tripey-nerdy jazzheads where the indie-rock scene used to be and he wonders how he got on the wrong side of the fence i.e. how did we lose the script? why is indie so resolutely complacent-uncool-stupid? "why do i hang out with a bunch of dorks? am i a dork? i can't be a dork, i listen to james brown, and the clash and liquid liquid..."

and though i think a few people have brushed on this (disclaimer: i have not read the whole thread) it might be worth some discussion.

(tho i think implicating the 80s hardcore-post-hardcore scene is pretty much otm. i wonder what paul westerberg in 1985 would have said if he was a t a party and somebody put on some prince...suggesting that prhaps it was all illusion, maybe indie-rock was never cool...)

(tho maybe paul w. liked prince. idk. that's why i wonder...)

(of course, i imagine 90% of ilm, if they never hear the word cool again it will be too soon.)

― Drugs A. Money, Thursday, 11 September 2008 04:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

one more thing:

I I remember the prominent general music critic Henry Pleasants made this very complaint about "loss of black influences" when he first heard the Velvet Underground. What a surprise that bands that follow in their footsteps should not break away from the trend!

― Cunga, Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:20 PM (10 months ago) Bookmark Permalink

AAAAAAAAAARGH! Does anyone else here listen to White Light/White Heat and not hear a great dub record?

― Drugs A. Money, Thursday, 11 September 2008 05:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

(of course, it's totally possible I might not be sure what dub is...)

― Drugs A. Money, Thursday, 11 September 2008 05:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

Man, would I be like really out of line and gauche to ask SFJ to offer up some thoughts on what prompted his own band's pretty tepid and bloodless (but not altogether uninteresting) music? I mean this could be really helpful in terms of moving towards an answer to his own initial question. I mean, SFJ was there.
-- Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, April 20, 2003

― velko, Thursday, 11 September 2008 05:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

More importantly, Indie music is not void of African influences. It in fact takes the roots of the african sound, and cuts out the middle man. You could say it has no African American influences, but once again Rock and Roll was formed upon African America music.

All "rock" music is more or less influenced by black music, but you could say that indie has some white influences too while the white influence on contemporary R&B is very close to zero.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 11 September 2008 08:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

now stfu

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 11 September 2008 08:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

worldofjustin.com

is this your site big hoos?

― its sad he was a ringtone poster (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 11 September 2008 08:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

in any event someone plz photoshop a picture of geir's head onto that disco ball

― its sad he was a ringtone poster (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 11 September 2008 08:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

aw that ain't nice

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 11 September 2008 08:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

So in exactly which way has Justin Timberlake influenced current R&B. It seems more to me like it's the other way round.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 11 September 2008 09:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

Black influence in music can be waaay overrated. Plus, nobody is forced to use anything or to acknowledge any cultural factors that don't mean anything to them. Actually, if anything some kinds of black music should be denounced rather than used, but to each his own.

― Vision, Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

lol

― omar little, Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

Vison: Don't forget that ALL pop music is influenced by black music in some form or another. It surely belongs there in the mix. Actually to such an extent that all "rock" related music is "black" in a way. Which makes it meaningless to ask for blackness. I mean, as for the indie bands that are being accused of not being "black" enough: They do have a rhythm section. That in itself is a very obvious "black" element.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

Geirbot.jpg

― Neil S, Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

And to take the bait: since when were rhythym sections a designator of race?

― Neil S, Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

I just used the "Suggest Ban" button.

― The Referee (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

that mr. diamond post is great

― cool app (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 11 September 2008 20:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

whoops! in regards to my wl/wh dub post, 'not hear'='hear'

― Drugs A. Money, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

Hi Geir, the influence does exist, but we don't have to buy it wholesale, it happened as a complex process, and it does not imply any obligations or debts. The way some people put it, it sounds as if black musicians are supposed to get 40 acres and a mule as reparation, and that of course puts the whole debate under a politicized, bitter perspective.

I dislike these "Elvis simply took black rhythms and styles blah blah blah" faulty generalizations. That's oversimplifying a complex and politically charged equation. I'm also puzzled that black influence is often equated simply with "rhythm", i.e, with some tribal pusating undercurrent to make people shake, rattle and roll. When Johnny Marr does that counterpoint thing in "This Charming Man", for instance, that's an african influence as well to a certain extent, but again, it's complex, because there's also a strong european contrapuntal tradition and so on.

Plus, I encourage people to express their dislikes a little more openly, and this is a subterranean discomfort that must be let out in the open: many people who like stuff like train,Garth Brooks or martial industrial bands loathe black music of any kind, particularly contemporary styles. So let's not rush anyone into being force-fed anything and respect all kinds of perceptions and worldviews.

BTW, I use black because 1)"african-american" it's a PC cop out which I reject and 2) to include other important traditions such as african-brazilian, afrocuban etc. So, 'till things are brighter, I'm the man uses the word "black".

― Vision, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

lol

― Patrick Leahy, (D)-VT (deej), Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

I didn't miss this place.

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

The way some people put it, it sounds as if black musicians are supposed to get 40 acres and a mule as reparation, and that of course puts the whole debate under a politicized, bitter perspective.

Dude...

― Neil S, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

Hi Geir, the influence does exist, but we don't have to buy it wholesale

I would say about 50 per cent of each. The Beatles got the mix between "black" and "white" elements just about right from around 1965 onwards.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

(Otherwise, I'd much rather give them 40 acres and a mule - imperialism is a factor that shouldn't be ignored. But in music it may)

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

...

― omar little, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

jesus

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

― omar little, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

This time I hit "Confirm".

― The Referee (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

hahaha

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 11 September 2008 21:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

oh hey, ilm is back

― you don't make friends with salad (Jordan), Thursday, 11 September 2008 22:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

― Patrick Leahy, (D)-VT (deej), Thursday, 11 September 2008 22:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

― Vision, Friday, 12 September 2008 00:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/rupert_christiansen/blog/2009/02/24/has_rock_music_got_a_cultural_diversity_problem

― meme economist (special guest stars mark bronson), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 11:38 (8 months ago) Permalink

Nice comment from Jimmy Tarbuck there.

― Bernard Braden Misreads Stephen Leacock (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 11:45 (8 months ago) Permalink

I think that's Peter Sissons

― Queueing For Latchstrings (Tom D.), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 11:47 (8 months ago) Permalink

Oh hold on, he was at school with Jimmy Tarbuck too!

― Queueing For Latchstrings (Tom D.), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 11:48 (8 months ago) Permalink

It may well be failed London Mayoral candidate Steven Norris.

― Bernard Braden Misreads Stephen Leacock (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 11:49 (8 months ago) Permalink

most black music concerts almost always have a much larger spectrum of people from diff races than any rock show ive been to, even ones where the bands have black/non white members (bloc party, tvotr, cornershop etc etc).

― Yellow Carded (titchyschneiderMk2), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 11:50 (8 months ago) Permalink