The ILC Favourite Characters Of All Time

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We didn't get a positive comment about Opus but he got two! hate votes, one of them reproduced below...

Berke Breathed is the most overrated cartoonist of the last thirty years. Whatever he didn't pinch from Garry Trudeau, he stole from Charles Schulz (the long-running story of Opus's search for his missing mother was a direct rip from “Peanuts,” though while Schulz’s strips on the theme had a tragic, hopeless undercurrent, Breathed’s were all too obviously designed to elicit sympathy from the reader) – and that didn't stop him from sneering about Schulz's sad decline, nor from boasting of his own ignorance of the form. Opus was an appealing character, but Breathed seemed to have no idea who he was, saddling him with so many pointless pop-culture wisecracks that he became all but indistinguishable from any other smug, wisecracking cartoon animal. [JD]

Best Moment: Over to you!

I'm sort of baffled about Opus, he wasn't so much a character as a walking cypher. His thing was that he didn't understand bits of society, so they were explained to him in ways that made them seem hilarious. Later changed his name to John Bird.

http://www.helsinki.fi/~lakoma/comics/pics/corto/corto.jpg

Corto Maltese is as much a traditional adventure hero as the stories starring him are traditional historical adventures. Each new Corto Maltese comic finds this shipless sea captain in a different part of the world, getting entangled in a web of colourful characters and occurences. More often than not, however, he doesn't seek adventure or thrills - things just happen to him. A bit of a melancholic, Corto doesn't divide people into good and bad; to him, they're either sympathetic or unsympathetic. This is the reason he stays friends with the vile-but-loyal Rasputin, even though he often feels like killing him. Corto is enough of a realist not to think he can change things in the long run, but not enough of a cynic to have stopped caring. He's not a heroic figure, but situations he faces often force him to do good deeds. One thing that rarely comes across him is love, and he seems quite careful not to even think about it. But we do get a few glances into this side of him, and they reveal Corto to be a romantic at heart. This probably is his greatest tragedy: love, like everything else, happens to Corto without him having too much say in the run of things. It seems the circumstances are always against him, and he's fate is to always wander ahead, never making home anywhere. Not because he wants to run away, but because he seems to exist in a flow. That is the only way for him to be. (Tuomas)

Greatest Moment: over to you!

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Just for his achievements! He has won everything as a player and a manager. (Pete Baran)

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He's big. He's green. He's the smartest guy in the room. He hates clothing. (Huk-L)

Perhaps the greatest DC character never to have gotten any sort of fame with a solo series whatsoever? I prefer him to Superman, really (no offense to big blue): a predilection for oreos is a lot more interesting coming from a totally alien creature than it would be coming from a Kansas farm-boy, and having your home planet’s civilization destroyed when you were a baby doesn’t quite hold up to witnessing the whole deal when you’re a married adult. (Daniel Rf)

it still seems like he is full of secrets after however many years of comics (Jordan)

Greatest Moment: DC: The New Frontier

http://galileo.spaceports.com/~xsufiru/images/Covers/jlia028.jpg

In the sitcom set-up of the JLI, Guy Gardner's role was clear: the dick. The asshole. The bad guy. The one you love to hate. He fulfilled this role very well, but he wouldn't have made this poll just for that - Giffen and DeMatteis kept the character fresh and made him far more appealing by introducing the 'lobotomised' happy-happy Gardner and then by giving him an unlikely relationship with Ice. That was when the character really got going: the situation of a sleazy guy trying to get into the pants of a nice girl is familiar from comedies, but not from superhero comics. It provided a lot of the funniest JLI issues, but it's also a good example of how that comic could expand the emotional range of spandex books without making a big fuss about it.

After the glory years Guy slipped back into being a knob, and then being a macho knob played for applause rather than chuckles, and then an embarassing stint as a living weapon and barkeep. Now a shadow of his former self, he props up the cast of the new Green Lantern book.

Greatest Moment: The covers of JLI #18 and #19 (which I didn't find, sorry Huk!)

Roy Races Finest Moment was surely winning the European Cup as Manager, CHairman and his son captaining the team, AND THEN coming on to score the winning goal when his son was brutally taken out of the game by the evil Italian team.

And then doing something similar three years later. And being relegated to the conference in the meantime due to an arcane FA rule

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/SPMTOR001_COV.jpg

As Pete put it in his comments, "a fun version". The essence of Spidey's character is that he's a nice, funny, kind of dorky guy - what defines him isn't the angst, it's how he copes with it. Dan Slott prefers the Spider-Man who slaps his forehead and says "Oh BRO-therr" to the one who clenches his fists and howls at the rain-soaked world. That said...

Greatest Moment: Slott [in SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH] sums up the tragic core of Spidey in five words. Torch says that Spidey should take a holiday. Spidey replies: "No. I can't stop. Ever." (Al)

#54. Acid Archie (Zenith)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/archie-744495.jpg

Grant Morrison's Zenith Book 3, published in 1990 in 2000AD re-introduced and revived a vast number of old UK comics heroes (many of whom are getting more boring treatment in Albion right now). One of them was Robot Archie, who had fought crime in the 60s. Robot Archie, like the original Iron Man, had a particularly clunky, yet appealing design, very much a pulp idea of what a robot would look like. Morrison kept the look intact for Zenith but painted a smiley face on and renamed him Acid Archie, creating a raving robotic hero who fit 100% with the times and would stick in the memory of all 2000AD readers way beyond any actual contributions he made to the storyline.

Greatest Moment: There in the picture you can see that he's tamed a war dinosaur and painted a big flower on it. But his finest moment is his introduction. Pop star superhero Zenith is arguing with his agent, hears a knock at the door, opens it and there, out of nowhere, is a giant robot with a smiley on its head who barges into his flat shouting "SPEED SPEED ECSTASY". The 90s had arrived.

I like original Robot Archie as well, and probably would not be so fond of Acid Archie were it not for original Robot Archie.

I like the fact that Robot Archie has "Robot" in his name, as an aid to the hard of thinking.

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In Jim Woodring's curious dream-universe the bestial Manhog seems to represent our most venal, pitiful, greedy and stupid instincts. He is repulsive, but also often a victim, and not entirely without sympathy. The pained, desperate expressions on Manhog's face as he fails each time to understand or cope with his situation are some of Woodring's most powerful images.

Greatest Moment: Over to you!

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To be frank, I'm not sure why of all the Dykes to Watch Out For characters I chose to nominate Mo; in a comic filled with colourful characters she's probably the least colourful. She's as stereotypical as a lesbian (in a lesbian-themed comic) can be: an angry feminist, left-wing, masculine-looking, a vegetarian, has cats. But one shouldn't always scare away from sterotypes, since many lesbians really are like that. It's up to the other characters to fill the spectrum, and, like Tintin in Tintin, she's the centre that holds the spectrum together. Unlike Tintin though, she isn't an empty signifier - we can relate to her, and maybe that's exactly because of her plainness. (Tuomas)

Greatest Moment: Over to you!

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For her astonishing empathy. (Leee)

Greatest Moment:

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/blacklois2-740632.jpg

I can't think of any good examples of where this has completely backfired for her, since it's been a while since I've read the strip. But this is a common theme among gays and lesbians (who often go through a period of "well I'm gay so I'd better buy some Madonna CDs!" which sometimes NEVER ENDS ARGGH) and of course among the non-gays and -lesbians out there too.

(49 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/spiderj-758228.jpg

[No blurb or greatest moment for him - if someone wants to send me a blurb I will cut and paste it in this space]

(53 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/optimus-743096.jpg

Greatest Moment: His death in the Transformers movie, obviously. I was five years old, and I think I started freaking out and crying. (Laura)

(53 points)

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Imaginary friends is a constant Grant Morrison trope, because after all that's what comics characters used to be for a lot of kids. Flex Mentallo, in Doom Patrol and particularly in his own series, is Morrison's most involved working-through of this idea, acting almost as the imaginary friend of superhero comics themselves. Flex, slightly dim, often baffled, always heroic, is as much symbol as character but is no less memorable for that. Also he has one of the greatest origin issues in comics!

Greatest Moment: Flex turns the Pentagon into a circle. (Vic Fluro)

(56 points)

http://homepage.mac.com/merussell/iblog/B835531044/C31175526/E1653270529/Media/Marv1.gif

He's the heart and soul in the Sin City universe -- every other protagonist has been an unimaginative and tired genre exercise. Balancing his invigorating self-unawareness with intimate familiarity with the seamy underworld and his ultimate fate, and with dialogue that Frank Miller hasn't topped since... (Leee)

Greatest Moment: I want to say the panel where he kicks in the windshield of the police car, but that's mostly because I love its art. Instead, I'll go with Marv shooting at the statue of Roarke and then laughing like the loveable psycopathic lunatic that he is. (Leee)

(56 points)

Darkseid is the nuclear bomb of the DC Universe. He's Mutually Assured Destruction. He's powerful enough that he could take down every hero who's ever been a member of the JLA with one Omega Beam behind his back, but he's such a cocky bastard that he never quite does. While his life's work, the Anti-Life Equation, is essentially the End of All Things, he's not necessarily a bad guy. (Huk)

Greatest Moment:
http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/darkseid-794253.jpg

That's how they spell "struggle" in Apokoliptian, and he's reading his own book.

Not at all.
Left to right they are Noel Baxter (team joker), Jimmy ???(the kid), Blackie Gray (Roy's best friend), Charlie 'The Cat' Carter (goalkeeper), Roy Race, Lofty Peak (hard man), Mervyn Wallace (inconsistent genius), and Duncan MacKay (the Scot).

(59 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/hellboy-746341.jpg

Like a savvier, more knowledgeable and more indestructible Marv. Just as key is the fact that he's out there in the world, with friends who actually look up to him, and the fact that he tangles with Nazis, Rasputin, vampires, werefrogs, dragons, ghosts, demons and manages to tell them all to shut up in so many words, cos he's got the Right Hand of Doom to back him up, you know. (Leee)

Best moment: From Wake the Devil, when he jumps out of the plane with the jetpack that doesn't work, stubbornly clicking the ignition without success while freefalling, and muttering, "Aw crap," which sums up his appeal: unprepossessing, straight-forward and with understated humor. (Leee)

and yeah, what huk said. when he first fought those monsters i figured it was a ghostbusters/slimer thing, the first ugly bad guy before the other stuff happens... but it was really just those cgi things.

ie, just like the comic!

Huk, the criticism you're making has absolutely no bearing on the movie "Hellboy" (unless of course Hellboy has been a top-tier character since 1930 and I just didn't notice).

HULK CALL AGENT

HULK HAVE RANGE AND PATHOS

HULK HAVE AGENT CALL JOHN WOO

(59 points)

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As with most Pat Mills characters, Mek-Quake is only really worth reading before about 1988. But his catalogue of golden moments before then makes him a worthy inclusion, and he's one of the most memorable characters in 2000AD. He started as the Ro-Busters' disaster squad's resident bulldozer, and has had a chequered career since as a demolition robot, a war droid, an ABC Warrior and even Tharg's personal hitman. Throughout Mek-Quake has been venal, stupid, and enormously violent. He's also been the perfect henchman, which is the key to his character - he has a simple, eager thuggishness which would be sinister if it wasn't played for laughs.

Greatest Moment: Nemesis the Warlock Book III, where Mek-Quake's gleeful brutality reaches an apex as he destroys the Gothic Empire's artificial moon, causing it to rain down on the planet while he gives his signature cry of "Big jobs!"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1840237945/qid=1129064989/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8309900-4870466?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I think you'd love it, it's one of the most insane reads in comicdom.

(61 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/tharg-775930.jpg

(a rare photo of the Mighty One, from the pages of CRASH! magazine. See! He's real!!)

"I, Tharg, from my alien head, bring you THE FUTURE" proclaimed the second-best ever strapline on a 2000AD cover. And he did, this green alien from Betelgeuse, introducing every prog of 2000AD to this day, aside from a handful where the non-scrot human staff attempted to retire him before reader protest brought him back.

Very much a creature of the 1970s, when most British weeklies had a figurehead character as editor, Tharg has outlasted them all, and starred in many strips of his own - all credited to T.M.O. (The Mighty One). His best value though was always on the letters pages, praising Earthlets for donating progs to a children's ward, damning Earthlets whose behaviour was insufficiently thrill-powered and forever talking up the ghafflebette new series to be coming "in the Spring". A national galactic treasure.

Greatest Moment: Tharg has a temper tantrum and threatens to destroy the planet. A huge crowd, mindful of the danger, gets together and sings 'For he's a jolly good alien'. "They attempt to soothe my anger with flattery! And it works!" He then puts up a statue of himself to commemorate the day he saved Earth from his own wrath.

Also the time when he tries to write and draw a prog himself and they have to take it away in a lead-lined van. "One glimpse and your mind will explode! Don't look at it!" (Vic Fluro)

I should search for the 2000AD threads, I think

"Yes, Jimmy...a prank.....grrr-rrr-rrr"

42. Mona Lisa Ludacristits (ILC)

(62 points)

PICTURE URGENTLY REQUIRED.

Image Comics' finest hour, as I recall this character is the Mona Lisa with laserbeam tits. Possibly also with Ludacris' face. Appeared in Deathmate Puce.

I'll never forget the first time I saw Mona Lisa Ludacristits. It was one of those hologram-covered multi-publisher crossovers from the mid-90s. She was teamed up with Swamp Thing and Alpha Flight in a story that only Ron Marz and John Byrne could have created. Sentimentality be damned, I sold my 9.7 CGC'ed copy for $10K (Cdn) on eBay last fall. Figuratively speaking, I much the poorer for it. Literally speaking...not so much. (Huk-L)

++THRILL POWER 99.9% AND RISING++DO NOT MISS NEXT PROG EARTHLETS++

Answer: No, probably.

I seem to remember one of his thrills being drawn by Bellardinelli.

(65 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/chick-795060.gif

ANTHONY EASTON WRITES!

Some things about homosexuals in Jack Chick Comics (esp. The Gay Blade)

1. In the Gay Blade, from the mid 70s, the cover combines three prominent signifiers of queer desire; two common and one not. (Lambda, Mauve, Sissy Prancing.) To know the Lambda is to spend enough time w. queer texts to get the cult.
2. The first three panels of Gay Blade actually make the married gay couple look as normal as possible; his strange over the top (camp?) phisiognomy is absent here.
3. The fourth panel is the most famous depiction of Chick and Homosexuality, and requires a closer reading.
a. Two Queer Radicals vs. Mother and Child.
b. It was a stated goal for glbtq folx when written to scare children, to antagonistically oppose the mother and child as an example of middle class sentiment
c. The men look like radical faeries, they have the genderfuck costume down pat, one large and bearded, with a brocade vest, a gay revolution t shirt, and be crowned with a v. fine bouffant—which seems to directly quote this foto: http://www.crazyfunnypictures.com/items/1619.jpg (Though it is a
radical queer picture, I find this mostly on funny picture now sites,
and not on places like gay.com or even the more pseudo-academic history sites.) taken about the same time… was it possible, living just north of SF, that he saw this, that he saw what was in the water?
i. The weird thing about the foto, is that it doesn't say faggot, he never actually engages in directed hate speech—it cannot be debated that the text is noxious, but he avoids saying things like faggot, queer, or any of the other more famous ones. His use of the word sodomite is explicitly biblical.
4. He footnotes the Lambda, talking about its presence as one of unity against oppression—which is true, and accurate, but does not note its classical and martial roots. Does he know it, is one of the reasons that jack chick hate fags, is that they are pagan, is that they oppose Christ and Christians, is their sin one of unbiblical decadence.
5. The sixth panel has the authority of the state is behind us, it faces the mob of radical queers, yelling and waving placards for gay revolution and gay power—there is only one cop for dozens of angry fags, they do not look pathetic, or angry, they look almost like they could win.
6. The text of this panel, talks about being defiant, it adds, almost half heartedly discussion of us being pathetic, miserable, etc—but the big thing for chick in the gay blade (and if that isn't a camp title I don't know what is) is that radical queer discourse provides an opposition to the order of both the state and god.
7. He then goes thru the standard, leftist gay is everywhere shit—literally the next three panels could be cribbed from something like Is It a Choice, or any of the don't feel bad about wanting to fuck men manuals that came after the militancy, the third panel in this sequence has two clones holding hands under an American flag, and the next panel has a butch dyke holding court at a school meeting, but she isn't the stone butch prison rapist that is so common in xian shit from this time…these two panels are actually fairly tolerant.
a. Chick is a skillful propagandist, he knows his Market, he has not gone over the top, he verges on journalism and he hasn't said anything that doesn't have correspondence in the queer communities…until about half way thru the comic.
8. Here he inserts the story of Sodom, and here he becomes the most vitriolic, the most revolted…in every anti-gay comic since the publication of the gay blade, chick inserts Sodom, and in Doom Town, his latest on the subject, he includes refutations of leftist hermeneutics about hospitality and social codes; Sodom is the key to this text.
9. The weird thing is that even biblically centered homophobic preachers don't really deal w. Sodom anymore, in many ways it is out of fashion (because of the wrath of YHWH is out of fashion, because we do not want to believe that someone is capable of such destruction (Pat Robertson is the exception here, with his recent comments on Hurricane Katrina.)
10. His Sodom sequence is drawn in the same style as bible illustrations from the 50s, before the good news bible:
a. Two archeologists sees images printed on the sides of caves indicating great and lasting evil, images so grotesque, that one immediately vomits (compare this to Doom Town: with its panel of a giant, yeti of a man, looking over a large eyed innocent child, saying "its that time again"—not saying that pedophiles are homosexuals, but saying allowing one sexual other lets the barn door open for everything else, an impt difference…)
b. It is from now on, biblical reportage: Abraham, Lot, The Two Angels, the great evil in the city, until we get about half way through the tour of Sodom
11. He then uses the line that Homosexuals surrounded the house of Lot, later calling them gay—this is the important part of the whole thing, he has moved between polemic and reportage, between theological point and moral one, between being fairly fair and being an asshole, between conservative but ethically consistent readings and cracked out misreading—the instability of the tract means that no grip can be held on it—there was same sex activity at that time and that place—b/w the Hittites mostly, and mostly related to foreign gods—there was a conflation b/w idolatry and adultery, w. Chick there still is.
12. The rest of the scene, 4 panels (including an oversize one) dealing with the evil of the homosexual men, two dealing with the angels who blinded the men, and one dealing with Lots Daughters a. Lot offered rape and murder as an option against anal penetration, in the most conservative reading of this text, and though Chick alludes to this, the phallocentric violence against women that grounds this story, that really does make it about men's violence against each other and women (Lot and His Daughters, YHWH and Lots Wife, etc)…there is a subtext here, mentioned previously, about order and the state, that the whole city, the government, the state, was corrupt, that corruption oozed into Lot, and Lot was in danger.
13. Then, nearing the end, we see the destruction of Sodom, ranking with Basil Woverton's illustrations of the apocalypse, this fire storm is so apocalyptic, and so modern—the desert, some people, and balls of flame, like Dresden, like Hiroshima, the left of the image looks like airplane fuselage and the right of the image looks like railway tracks.
a. This modernization of the fear of god, in the destruction of the modern world, comes in the this small picture, sandwiched with text, the top being the biblical verse, and the bottom being a footnote from an archeologist named DR MG Kyle, one of the ones who got sick I am assuming, the quote from Kyle (in 1924!) is one of salt plains, sulfur, and a "massively populated city" that is destroyed overnight.
b. The most powerful terror that permeates this entire comic, is that Chick is almost convinced that this slippage of gender and sex will destroy the world again, he is not looking forward to the apocalypse, not one of those rapture optimists—he surely has taken Christ into his heart, but even then, the fear of god is permeable.
14. The last 5 panels tell us that god hates fags, that they are coming to take over good Christians, has a few text panels added post AIDS with the same lying stats that have been bandied about forever, talks about recruiting, its so banal, so bog standard, it reminds us that homosexuality is one of many sins that can send us to hell, and that we have to pray and be forgiven. It rather ruins the enterprise.
15. This comic is the only one that still convinces me that I am going to hell, it is the only one that keeps terror in me, it is such a brilliantly executed piece of polemic, and there is nothing cute, nothing ironic, nothing amusing about it, it is a piece of religious fury, if best can be said to be a synonym for most effective, the homosexuals in Jack Chick Comics are one of the great villains—pathetic, dangerous, deluded, subversive, and able to be turned.

(68 points)

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Because we all know someone like that: the asshole with a heart of
gold who actually turns out to be a self-righteous asshole after all. (Douglas Wolk)

I’ll be the first to admit that Garth Ennis’ embrace of old time John Wayne macho culture is altogether too whole-hearted, and that his attempts at contradicting this (Jesse Custer’s read Greer, so he has – not that he’s learned anything from it of course) are painful to say the least. But I also believe that the things Ennis fetishizes have aspects worthy of salvaging, alongside those that should truly be condemned. Drunken revelry, teary-eyed sentimentality and the ability to face any problem with a bemused grin or a comical cry of “feckin’ ‘ell” – none of this should be underestimated. Cassidy’s comedown and the revealing of his “dark side” are as heartbreaking as they are inevitable, and though the character does get sold out in the last few issues, along the way there’s been sufficient crazed hijinks to fill a thousand versions of “On The Road”. (Daniel Rf)

Greatest Moment: Coming to New Orleans, Cassidy finds what turns out to be another vampire. The stranger takes him home and begins a pompous old style vamp speech about children of the night and such. Slowly, it sinks in that this is the first person Cassidy’s ever met that shares his particular situation – “yeh’re a wanker, aren’t ye?” is his saddened reaction. (Daniel Rf)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Here's a pretty hilarious one documenting in harrowing detail how playing Dungeons & Dragons will turn you into a SATANIST:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

http://pc59te.dte.uma.es/cdb/series/oni/bitmaps/tarachace.jpg

(68 points)

Rucka's better works always feature a female lead (which explains why Wolverine and Adventures of Superman were relative failures), and certainly, without Tara Chace, Q&C would just be an amazingly gripping espionage thriller. With her, Q&C gets bite -- permission to become sexy and saucy without being exploitative. (Leee)

Greatest Moment: from Gentleman's Game, where she nearly kills someone with a magazine. (Leeee)

Isn't this part of the conceit of the series, though? I think I wrote in another thread that I thought the themes of ineffable "meaning" in regards to dreaming and the exploration of storytelling and mythmaking across different cultures actually provided a useful tool for Gaiman to cover up any such weaknesses as a writer. Since the end of the series, I think it's hurt his stories to not be able to rely on that anymore, making them more straightforward structurally than they ought to be as myth/fairy stories, too straight-ahead protagonist-focused fiction (but given that he's talking about how myth impinges on the individual in the modern world, this is not entirely a fair cop). I think he comes out of the same zeitgeist as Moore and Morrison in regards to exploring this stuff, but he has that charming "middlebrow" aspect of his work I think I mentioned which makes him more accessible to genre readers, for better and worse-- I think his approach can provide food for thought, but it also runs the risk of being read as mechanical and shallow (or being read mechanically and shallowly).

Oh, and that Chick "Angels?" track is awesome, in a sad way! (Ozzy and KISS want "to destroy country, home, and education"? Rock and roll "removes love and ushers in lawlessness"? I like how Lew Siffer has an organizational flowchart worked out for the "Killer Rock" tho. This paranoid "king of the world" stuff is a shame, but it was almost like reading an episode of The Invisibles gone horribly wrong, especially with the L man in that white suit!)

(69 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/robotman-757807.jpg

In Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol, Robotman first seems like he'll be playing the part of miserable Marvel-type hero, the mind-body problem made flesh metal. Then you realise his second role - to act as the reader's anchor in the weirdness, first sceptical and then grudgingly accepting, making the best of whatever outrageous situation the team's adventures lands him in. Then you find that he's the male lead in one of comics' most touching love stories. It all adds up to a highly sympathetic character - and on top of all that he gets a lot of the best lines!

Greatest Moment: Vic Fluro nominated the appearance of spider-Robotman, and I can't argue with that.

Another Best Moment: Cliff had his own ashes put in a jar to brighten up the room. Also, "Brain Versus Brain".

(73 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/flash-723513.jpg

It's no secret that the Flash I like pretty much ended his run with #61 of his current comic, with occasional appearances in JLA since. I was new to the DCU, Wally wasn't, but he was new to what being an icon in the DCU meant. And since the DCU in 1986-90 was pretty much synonymous with the 'new comics', mainstream division, that put the character right in the middle of an approach to superheroing - sometimes realistic, sometimes ironic, sometimes gritty, sometimes whimsical - that counts as my personal Golden Age (OK looking at the Baron and Loebs runs NOW I can see some of the influences, 'specially Gerber and Englehart).

The first year of the FLASH series is honestly up there for me with Amazing Spider-Man as a fantastic kid-with-powers series that's grounded in its time and the issues of its time. Wally West grapples with money, sex, drugs, computers, and a fair number of goofy new villains, and pretty much every episode is a joy. Loebs' run is gentler and more playful but the character development continues. The Waid run takes that development on logically - Wally ends up a true hero, unfortunately for my money not a very interesting one.

(& the big setpiece Waid stories are all too much about hammering home that Wally is a REAL HERO NOW - not a sin Waid alone was guilty of in the mid 90s)

Greatest Moment: This is a very personal choice, I've been reading The Flash since I was ten years old, so I grew up with this character. I also liked him when he was with the New Teen Titans. Finest hours -

Loser Wally (Messner Loebs era) - The issue where he goes to Captain Cold's birthday, I think messner loeb's idea of turning the Rogues Gallery into a JLI-esque supporting cast was the best way to deal with their silliness.

Superhero Wally (Waid era) - Coming back from the speed force in "Terminal Velocity"

Alternative timeline Walter (not Wallace) West - Flipping through the pages of the Flash comic book and saying goodbye to Angela in the last issue of the "Flash from the future" arc that came after "Chain Lightning" (Iodine)

Speed Force tho = k-rub (we've had that discussion before).

...then I'd be quite grateful.

*& not an elf.

Does anyone know which run of Flash this was, who was the author etc? And if its available in one of those DC comps?

Ok, I've done the first bit.

36. Astoria (Cerebus)

(77 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/astoria172-725765.jpg

Astoria is the first woman Dave really thought hard about when writing Cerebus, and it shows. She starts scheming, manipulative and power-obsessed, and ends scheming, manipulative and power-obsessed. She is the true Power Behind The Throne in Cerebus' rise to high office, and the power behind the schism of the feminist movement between Mothers and Daughters. Never mind threatening to sleep with Cerebus, this woman slept with Lord Julius (and Lord Gerrick) just to be close to power.

I suppose her most famous moment is the 'rape' scene. In it, Cerebus 'rapes' her after she encourages him while she is chained in jail, to be tried for killing the Pope of the West - although Astoria admits to him in Reads that she entirely manipulated him into doing it. (In case you're wondering, Cerebus marries them so they can have sex then divorces them, so it's not legally rape under Iestan law, hence 'rape') Deni tried to rationalise it that it was Dave having a go at her now they'd split up, but she forgets that she was happy with Dave during High Society where Astoria does something very, very similar to Cerebus (she pretends to be drugged and tries to seduce him, but is shown to have been in complete control all along and only trying to trap Cerebus) and didn't say anything about it there...

So I prefer to think of her best moment as when she reveals the truth to Cerebus about his hermaphroditic nature. Indeed, Astoria seems to be the non-aardvark with the best grasp of what the inherent nature of the aardvark actually is and as such is present in the throne room at the conclusion of Reads (that is, the end of the Second Third) along with Cerebus, Cirin and Suentius Po (the three living aardvarks). She knows she's possibly witnessing the end of everything, but for once is not thinking of herself and rather of what might happen if everything survives. (aldo_cowpat)

Astoria's something of a comics archetype--the Bad Character Working Toward Good Ends--but her way of going about it is almost entirely behind the scenes and political. When we first see her, the comedy of her relationship with the Moon Roach is played up so high that it's easy to miss what's actually going on: she's controlling a demented thug to perform political assassinations for her. We see her mind at work as she controls Cerebus's rise to power, and we gather that she's got an uneasy relationship at best with the political establishment as it is, but we don't find out quite what her goals are for a few years--and they turn out to be democracy and women's suffrage. But the essence of Astoria is that she's always, always, always in control of the situation, or, rather, that she always sees the shortest way to turn any situation to her advantage. When we see her again in Church and State II, she's chained to a wall in a dungeon, and she's still in control--even more than we realize at the time. (Douglas Wolk)

I think The Wuffa Wuffa Guy was in the running at one point.

but she walks out of the series forever the second she realises that it's really getting her anywhere or making her happy...

*6 months later?

35. Emma Frost (X-Men)

(78 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/efrost-731901.jpg

Being a bit of a hippie, and suffering – as many do – from excessive empathy with villains, I’ve always greeted bad guy redemption stories with a great deal of joy and anticipation. Emma Frost is one of the most convincing cases of this happening (because she was never a – ahem – black and white character to begin with), so I get a kick out of that. Also: rowr. (Daniel Rf)

Someone else in their comments called Emma Frost "Morrison's Kitty Pryde", which may explain why I always 'hear' her as British, and she's - for now at least - the most lasting legacy of his X-Men run. Witty, morally ambiguous, deadly sharp, passionately comitted to mutants in general, and part of one of the few emotionally convincing superhero romances, we should celebrate her while she's still relatively unspoiled. Morrison's greatest achievement may turn out to have been in making her so enormously fun for other people to write.

Finest Moment: "Riot At Xaviers"

Right, time to catch up on the last 3 weeks of ILC.

There's doubt about her citizenship? Crazy!

Well, really I'm just reviving this in the vain hope that Tom will let us know some more choices.

It's TOM 3WWWWWWWWING: THE OTHER!

He was diagnosed w/ the bird flu & killed by Tarkus! Now he must choose between The Business Professional and The Interweb Mentalist! And this choice will affect him FOREVER (because he'll be getting a new costume, and fancy new powers)!

One one person voted, but gave all his points to Jerry Cornelius before cryptically saying he was off to kill Hitler's grandparents. However he did not finish the sentence because his hand was fading away.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like Chap was right here.

And seeing your current quagmire, I take pity and have communiqued with teh Time Variance Authority, and they have given me approval to reveal teh results!

34. Spawn

This beloved character ushered in teh OH NO TEH LIEFELD BOTS ARE HERE TO STOP MY MISSIO---BZZZZzzzzz.

34. Robert Crumb (assorted comics by Robert Crumb)

78 points

http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/crumb/crumb_splash.jpg

Like a lot of great comics creators, Crumb is a mix of genius and crank in varying proportions. Unlike many, he's rarely sought to turn his obsessions into any kind of philosophy - in fact the niggling baseness of the stuff that "gets him going" seems to be what drives a lot of his work. Crumb's placing of his stylised self at the heart of his sex stories is often what stops him turning into just a fetish artist: the lack of distance gives his work a grubby vigour that's grotesque and sympathetic at the same time. And when the Crumb horn dies down his grumpy autobiog vignettes and nerd-joy blues obsessions can still trounce most 'personal' comics.

Greatest Moment: I'll leave that to the experts.

Vic is OTM, although Mr. Natural's pretty great as well.

(I can forgive people for not remembering what this poll was about, I admit.)

"Crumb’s only real character was himself; only the
hilarious sharpster Mr Natural came close to having a
life apart from his creator. Crumb’s early attempts at
self-analysis now seem dated and self-indulgent, but
by the ‘80s he’d evolved into a great artist, fully
capable of stepping back to fully appreciate his own
nature – that of a rather unpleasant and neurotically
self-absorbed man."

(81 points)

http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/games/ps2/action/fantastic_four_ben_grimm.jpg

"Great visuals, and balances angst and gags better than any Marvel hero." (Pete)

"It breaks my heart to say this considering how much I love Jack Kirby, but was there ever a more annoying whiner in the entire history of comics? Get over it already!" (JD)

The Thing is the finest example of a particular Kirby type - the tough reg'lar guy who Gets Things Done. Think Dum Dum Dugan or Terrible Turpin, and then give them rocks. Muscular, street-level, simply heroic, he's almost like the last Golden Age hero as well as one of the lynchpins of the Marvel Age - though the "why am I a monster?" plot could really have done with being dropped after FF#51, rather than remaining as fallback characterisation ever since. He's also a bullshit detector and a guide to the outlandish, and almost any time he's in a 'serious' story his character doesn't work - what more could you ask for?

Greatest Moment: "I know everybody loves "This man, this monster", but to me, the best-written Ben Grimm would be the one Mark Waid did, especially in the last issue of his run. That issue also features my favorite Reed Richards ever." (iodine)

(82 points)

http://pc59te.dte.uma.es/cdb/series/max/bitmaps/jessicajones.jpg

"Hard smoking, hard drinking, lumpily drawn." (Pete)

Greatest moment: "Explaining that she can fly, yeah, she's just always had some trouble landing..." (Douglas Wolk)

xpost

I like Reed more than Ben btw.

Ben Grimm is Jewish? That never occurred to me.

Black panel borders: dud.

still... greatest comic book punchline ever?

(83 points)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/DrManhattan.jpg

Alan Moore's take on a cosmically powered supercharacter is at heart a standard what-is-this-thing-called-emotion story arc (tho with a last issue twist of sorts) but Dr M is so well realised you hardly care. His mechanistic perspective on the universe maps nicely onto the hyperformalism of Watchmen, and what's more he was naked for pretty much the whole series.

Greatest Moment: "Watchmen #4 in its entirety" (Vic F)

Haha, yes.

60. Opus
59. Roy Race
58. Corto Maltese
57. Martian Manhunter
56. Guy Gardner (Giffen/DeM)
55. Spider-Man (Dan Slott)
54. Acid Archie
53. Manhog
52. Mo
51. Black Lois Lane
50. Spider Jerusalem
49. Optimus Prime
48. Flex Mentallo
47. Marv
46. Darkseid
45. Hellboy
44. Mek-Quake
43. Tharg The Mighty
42. Mona Lisa Ludacristits
41. A Homosexual
40. Cassidy
39. Tara Chace
38. Robotman (Grant M)
37. Wally West Flash
36. Astoria
35. Emma Frost
34. Robert Crumb
33. The Thing
32. Jessica Jones
31. Dr Manhattan

"Stand by" for #30 on!

(88 points)

http://www.unificationfrance.com/IMG/jpg/xmen_beast.jpg

"One of the few marvel mutant characters to break out of the narrow field and into the larger fictional world, he's changed with the times, remaining on, or at least slightly behind, the forefront of cool. Early experiments with 'beat culture' changed to full-on hippiedom, drinking and 'alleged' smoking of dope. When the mutant comics became angst-filled, meandering plots-that-go-nowhere coolfests, he was there too, tragically losing his supermind by degrees before being replaced by his own evil twin from an alternate Earth! And for the new century, he reinvented himself again as a smooth-talking metrosexual." (Vic F)

"If the X-Men, more than about race or sexuality, are about plain old-fashioned teenage alienation, surely Hank McCoy is one of the best role models the series can muster. He’s been dealt one hell of a rough hand – unlike most of his fellow mutants, his powers are not hidden and he doesn’t look like an extra from “Melrose Place” – and yet he whines about it considerably less than most of his colleagues. Which pays off – first x-man to join the Avengers, respected member of the scientific community, Beast has adapted to real life as well as anyone in his crew. The Marvel universe’s proof that you can be both a giant nerd and the life of any party, and that smarts, wit and bonhomie make up for a hell of a lot." (Daniel_Rf)

Greatest Moment: "At the Coffee-A-Go-Go he is made king of the
Beat-niks. His road to ruin begins here." (Vic F)

(89 points)

http://www.grovel.org.uk/reviews/darede01/darede03.gif

The Stan Lee Daredevil is yr standard garish romp, twin brothers and fights with the likes of the Owl. But - maybe accidentally, maybe alchemically - Lee had hit on a character with massive symbolic freight: a lawyer, a vigilante, living the high life, from the mean streets, and get this he's blind! The result is the hero probably best able to sensibly carry the weight as comics got darker and grittier - DD's campy past never preys on him like it does on Batman, there's rarely the lurking shadow of the ludicrous. Which means that when Daredevil's comics get grim it doesn't feel so affected. Of course this might be hindsight because Miller and Bendis did what they did so well - but it seems to me that they found something that was already there.

Greatest Moment: Playing russian roulette with a comatose Bullseye (Daredevil #191) (I think this was Leee's pick)

(89 points)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/news/silver-surfer/silver-surfer-movie.jpg

In Kirbyworld, the Surfer was a cold, alien figure incapable of understanding human emotion yet capable of sacrificing his freedom to save the human race – a postmodern take on the Christ story. In Stan Lee’s hands, he was a bit more mundane, and prone to sleep-inducing lectures – yet the fascination of the character remained. (JD)

Greatest Moment: Over to you!

I was probably a bit thick in the 80s.

http://www.hembeck.com/Images/FredSez/BlueBeetleJLA380.jpg

(91 points)

From Steve Ditko's faux-Spider-Man to Giffen & DeMatteis's most sympathetic character, Ted Kord spoke to the insecurities in all of us. And for that, we killed him like a Kennedy. (Huk-L)

I don’t think I’ve ever gotten as angry about the offing of a fictional character as I did when DC decided to do away with Blue Beetle. How to justify such emotional investment? The best that I can come up with is that, unlike Booster Gold say, Blue Beetle isn’t just a moderately pleasant clown: he’s the prankster that reads Chekov, the c-list character that, precisely because of his mediocre status, often ends up looking a lot more heroic than Superman, Batman or any of the other big guns. (Daniel_Rf)

Greatest Moment: Meeting Catherine Cobert for the "first" time in JLA #8, "Moving Day" (Iodine)

Does "zzzzzzzzork" mean "then they fucked like bunnies" or "and then the title started sucking bigtime" or something else?

(96 points)

http://www.dogmaticblog.com/images/blog_images/constantine.jpg

John Constantine is the ultimate "Mary Sue" character - pretty much everyone who writes him infects him with their own habits and concerns, and no surprise as he's the perfect vehicle to live out both yr coolness fantasies and yr bastard ones: unlike most Mary-Sues he allows writers to explore self-disgust as well as self-glorification. He's also - albeit intermittently - one of the only convincing British characters in US comics, which may explain a lot of his votes.

Greatest Moment: Despite a 200+ issue ongoing series (not bad for someone designed to look like Sting!) his biggest impact is still his first dozen or so appearances, as the plot device and Greek chorus behind "American Gothic". Alan Moore's concept of an outsider who sees how the bits fit together has been ripped off umpteen times since but these appearances are still the freshest. Swamp Thing #46, the CRISIS tie-in issue, might be the best crossover issue of all time and shows how well the guy works in a shared universe.

That's one of my favourite aspects of him, which is why my favourite moment is still the big scene in Books Of Magic.

(99 points)

http://www.austinbooks.com/images/DCArchiveWESpirit17.jpg

Leaving aside the visual mastery and narrative genius of Will Eisner, Denny Colt still stands as a classic character. The Spirit contained everything we would love about adventure heroes in the years to come. Like James Bond, he knew the importance of a well-tailored suit. Like Indiana Jones, he usually took more punches than he threw. He was occasionally cruel to those he cared about, but he always maintained a stoic sense of duty. In a lot of ways, he was camp before camp was cool. (Huk-L)

Greatest Moment: "The Post-War Strips" sez Huk.

As for the Spirit--it's one of my favorite comics, but does anyone actually like the Spirit? I've never wondered what would happen to him, what he was like, etc. He just seemed like an automated "Main Character" for Eisner to send out into gigantic diminishing points of perspective and multi-colored postmodern metafictions.

but this could be any noir hero no? philip marlowe, the continental op...

Also - this is true of the Surfer too - a "good character" isn't just down to the writer! How the character stands, poses, moves, looks, smiles are just as important and that's where the Spirit picks up points and votes, surely.

The Spirit contained everything we would love about adventure heroes in the years to come

what i meant was a lot of those qualities were also contained by heroes who were the spirit's contemporaries.

(103 points)

http://www.zeuscomics.com/images/covers/she-hulk-v4-3.jpg

She's big. She's green. She's the smartest gal in the room. She hates clothing. (Huk-L)

A nothing character that lots of people have done a surprising amount with. (Pete)

Greatest Moment: defeating Blizzard with the power of booze (Mark C)

And the good Eisner-written stories from the Spirit totally pwn everything he did post-retirement obv.

Maybe tomorrow, though...

You're pretty much right -- this would have been circa '42-'45, when Eisner diverted his attentions from comic books to beating the Nazis, albeit using comic books to do it, using them as instruction manuals for GIs. Still, Lou Fine was drawing El Spirito, and since he was one of the three best Golden Age artists, that's no bad thing.

David

23. Heathcliff (Heathcliff and the Catillac Cats)

(4,602 points)

http://www.shoutfactory.com/img/detail/heathcliff.jpg

Imagine Garfield -- but funnier!

22. Juggernaut/Cain Marko (X-Men)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Juggernaut.PNG

Greatest Moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV_3cBmAHjA

http://es.geocities.com/beatlescomicsmelgar3/notbrand8b.jpg

He's got a pot. On his HEAD. A pothead, gettit?

Greatest moment: beating the Meatles. Whoops, meeting the Beatles.

Wimpy is probably best know for
his consumption of hamburgers,
and anything else if hamburgers
are not available. Here is his famous,
"I would gladly pay you Tuesday
for a Hamburger today." line.
-- David R

if calvin's dad isn't top 5 there's something wrong somewhere!!
-- J.D.

(not to give anything away JD but i sorta kinda address the "calvin's dad" issue in my comments --- albeit in a way that will possibly disappoint you!!)
-- mark s

REPENT THE END IS NIGH, FOR WHEN SONIC THEE HEDGEHOGS COMiCS REACH THEE ISSUE 200 THEE END SHALL BE UPON US

-- the eunuchs, Cassim and Mustafa, who guarded Abdur Ali's harem

“Ah, I love “Drabble”. The dad’s like an unfunny version of me.”
-Homer Simpson

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8690/eggfuqc0.gif

"Just a bit of fu"
-Tom Ewing

"Mel Gibson was arrested for suspicion of driving under the influence. He was released later this morning. The investigation was still ongoing, just like it would be with any other person, especially Egg-Fu."
-spokesman for the Los Angeles Country Sheriff's Department

23. Superman (Superman, Action, etc)

(111 points)

"Iconic character. Impossible to write good stories about." Pete

http://theages.superman.ws/History/all-star/sitting-on-a-cloud.jpg

Probably the character whose star has risen the most since the voting closed, with Showcase Presents reintroducing the crazy Silver Age tales, All-Star making a strong case for the same spirit in modern comics, and one of the few good One Year Later renovations. I voted for him, mostly on the basis of his appearances in Morrison's JLA: a particular favourite moment was the panel of him wrestling an angel.

"greatest moment: Superman's Return To Krypton! A novel-length epic written by Jerry Siegel, drawn by (I think) Kurt Shaffenburger and screamed at by Mort Weisinger!" Vic Fluro

If we have unfinished polls, then suck it.

If Superman has gone up, how far DOWN has Batman gone? Aside from the Morrison issues, he's like a giant turd sitting in my drink.

Yay for Andrew!

Hey, the vagina dentata thread is thattaway!

But please don't post there, Zillaman might come back.

(113 points)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/29/Magrex1.jpg/403px-Magrex1.jpg

"He's been good and he's been bad but common sense he never had. During the swinging marvel sixties, nobody was more maniacal than Magneto! But he could reform at the drop of a hat to become a sincere, deep, profound, achingly deep man of immense DEPTH. But we secretly like him better when he's a gibbering freak, as Grant Morrison proved." (Vic F)

Excellent example of a villain who's ethos rather than powers makes him a great foil to the hero(es), and the subject of a grebt essay by Tom on the perils of character growth.

Greatest moment: Answering a door – "Who am I? I am power! Men call me – MAGNETO! And now – come in!" (Vic F)

Did Morrison write this stuff, or it was Claremont meddling?

Yay! The legacy continues! Onward to #1! LET NO ONE STOP US!

I think the answer lies in less short-term factors: Batman's had a pretty great run in media visibility for almost two decades now (from the Burton and Schumacher flicks through the animated series up to "Batman Begins", and of course the 60's show got shown a lot on TV, too), and then there's the Miller stuff, which might not be too popular with ILCers *these days*, but I'm willing to bet most of us went through a phase of thinking "Dark Knight Returns" and "Year One" were pretty hot shit. So between those two factors it seems pretty difficult for a comic fan not to have at least a passing fondness for Batman, while Superman has just been a lto more...avoidable.

Did anybody else have absolutely no interest in Bat/Supes comics when a child? After all the movies, tv shows, cartoons, etc., the comics always felt superfluous.

Surely! Isn't half the point of these things that they're soap operas? You follow them because you've come to hold some sort of (irrational) attachment to the characters, and even if you realize there's no reason to assume you'll be interested in what Chuck Austen does with Kitty Pryde, you've built up an affinity for Kitty Pryde following all her previous misadventures, close scrapes, and milkshake dates, and so there you are, reading a Chuck Austen book against all your better instincts.

(118 points)

http://www.localarcade.com/arcade_art/data/thumbnails/2/popeye.jpg

I guess we could make some sort of claim for Popeye to be considered the first comic superhero, but I think that's an angle of little interest. Popeye was the toughest guy around (it was a couple of years before spinach got any credit for this, and it never played a crucial part until the animated shorts played it up), and an adventurer (ha, I'd much rather draw parallels with Corto than Superman), but he didn't seek out crime or evil to fight. He wasn't a character who would profess nobility, make speeches about good and evil or anything like that, but he had the right kind of heart, albeit along with a very short temper. He was about as far from an intellectual as you can imagine, but he was generally pretty smart, and remarkably secure in himself - "I yam what I yam" is a very firm statement of individuality, although it's probably more accurate to regard it as a sign of a total lack of interest in self-examination.

It's the Popeye in the Segar strips I love: Popeye in stories that are inventive adventures, with beautifully played broad comedy, satire, great characters all the time (I love the Jeep, the whiffle hen, the sea hag, Wimpy and lots more) and they even have the famous romantic elements with Olive, a relationship that was always complex and problematical and multi-faceted. For me, the nine years from Popeye's introduction until Segar's death is the best run of daily strips ever created, by some distance (and I think Segar is one of the most important influential figures in comic history too, something that's often rather neglected), and a strong contender for the best comics of any kind ever (I guess I'd maybe put Herriman's Krazy Kat sundays above them, but it's close); and I don't know that comics have ever produced a character I like better than Popeye. - Martin

The best not superhero superhero - Pete

Greatest moment: Thimble
Theatre had been starring Castor Oyl, Ham Gravy and of course Olive for nearly ten years before, in 1929, they took a sailing trip and met this gruff, tough seaman with an entirely unique appearance and way of speaking. No one before or since (aside from parodies and homages) had muscles like that, or one eye missing or screwed up enough so it might as well be, and the pipe, face and tattoos are equally distinctive. The speech patterns are established from the first moment - asked if he's a sailor, our first sight of him has him saying "Ja think I'm a cowboy?" - Martin

20. Crazy Jane (Doom Patrol)

(119 points)

http://yukihime.com/board/crazyjane.jpg

Quite hard to search for on ILX, this lady only seems to appear as the subject of a letter from Tom Ewing to DC Comics, explaining why she needed a spanking. Half of the love story at the center of Doom Patrol, one of Grant Morrison's initial pair of assaults on everything good and DC, Jane was a multiple personality sufferer whose every personality had a different superpower.

I wrote a much more boring letter, which got printed.

(126 points)

http://www.blogzine.com.br/rorschach.jpg

Hero-of-sorts from Watchmen, based on the old Charlton comic The Question (though I'm unsure whether Watchmen was during one of the characters lower-profile eras). For all that Owlman was the analogue of Batman, it's Rorschach that the subsequent decades of writers seem to have taken as a template.

And Rorschach with his self-conscious "life as art" attitude is actually a pretty Nietzschean superhero, so that quote fits in more than one way, although it's a pretty lame Nietzsche quote as Nietzsche quotes go. (I guess it's the popular favorite because it feeds off the legend of his madness?)(Chris F)

Actually, Pal Joey/Taxi Driver era Peter Boyle coulda made a great Rorschach. He's too old now. (HUK-L)

I always thought the "free to carve my own morality into the world" issue was kinda problematic regarding Rorschach's personality. If he was free to choose his morals, why would he still cling to the sort of conservative ideas he had previously? I don't think real extreme rightists ever go through such a moral epiphany.

This is perhaps exemplified in his confrontation with his landlady once she has turned him in. He is there, Rorschach forced to be Kovacs, and recognises one of her children as him in his youth. Despite his sense of honour in what he does, he recognises the days of heroes are over and cannot run the risk of the child potentially turning into another version of him - so protects the child from the absolute knowledge of his mother's life and gives him another chance.

Rorschach really is the most interesting character in the whole comic; everyone else sort of serves the function they've given in the story, but he's goes through an arch of personal change. Okay, there's also Dr. Manhattan "humans are worthy" realization, but I never found that (or the whole character) as convincing as Moore may have intended.

I think the whole conclusion of Watchmen is a lot more morally ambiguous than certain people are making out - Moore never really asserts an authorial opinion on Veidt's plan. Obviously our gut reaction is that it's an atrocity, but if it does, debateably to be sure, 'save the world', then can it be a wholly bad thing? I think Moore's intention is more to show notions of good and evil to be far more fluid and nebulous than they are generally portrayed in this type of fiction than to provide a simple reversal of expectations.

Oh, I think he does, though in a clever way. The ending of Watchmen is well-known for it's openness - "I leave it entirely to your hands"; does Seymour pick up Rorschach diary or not? - and it's clear this is Moore's way of saying, "I leave it to readers to decide whether or not Veidt did right or wrong"... But he also sneaks in his own opinion inside the pirate story, which parallels the main story all the way through, and in which the protagonists ends up doing most hideous things only because he thinks he's protecting his loved ones, so in the end he is condemned for his sins and has to enter the black pirate ship. The fact that Veidt is his alter ego is made clear when Veidt says, "sometimes I dream of swimming towards a black ship...".

This is the only time I can remember ever being tempted to use the acronym QFT.

Wait, so we're both right, except you're righter. Yellowcard for you.

18. Scrooge McDuck (Uncle Scrooge)

(134 points)

ihttp://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/archives/mcduck.gif

There was a sober, stoic quality to Carl Barks'
stories and artwork that reached its ultimate
expression in the brisk, no-nonsense character of
Scrooge. Initially a cartoonish miser in the mold of
his Dickens namesake, Scrooge eventually evolved into
a remarkably original character – a modern version of
that classic American archetype, the self-made man. He
made his fortune, he says, by "being tougher than the
toughies, and smarter than the smarties – and I made
it SQUARE!" (Justyn)

His Scrooge can be greedy as hell, but ultimately Scrooge always chooses his fellow beings before money - witness the tear-jerking story where he's willing to give up everything he owns to save his beloved sled dog from drowning. (Tuomas)

Best moment: Rolling around in his money bin. (d a simpson)

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/archives/mcduck.gif

This is actually a part of the plot in one of Barks' stories - the Beagle Boys have robbed Scrooge's money, and he asks for one last swim. Seeing Scrooge bathe in the money, the Beagle Boys want to do that as well, and jump into the pile of coins, only to hit their heads and lose their consciousness. Then they're arrested, and Scrooge reveals that only he can actually swim in money, after years of practice.

(136 points)

http://flakmag.com/books/images/bizarro.jpg

A silverage foe of Superman which shares with Braniac the distinction of unobtrusively slipping into mainstream vocabulary.

"Me hate Bizarro. Bizarro am most useless example of uncreativity of Silver Age. Bizarro am joke that am alway get serious. Best Moment: "Bizarro Creates a Monster!", Adventure Comics #292, Jan 62. By Jerry Siegel and John Forte." (Huk-L)

I'm sure everyone's been Bizarro once or twice as a kid. The idea "what if we did everything exactly the other way around than how we usually do it?" and the increasingly convoluted logic that springs from this are staples of childhood imagination. But the sheer genius audacity of applying this concept to fiction – how could you not love that? Comic books do "WTF" better than most any other medium – what in literature might seem slappeable, and on film mannered, could so often be saved by inserting it into the colourful, intrinsically bizarre medium of comics. And no one does WTF better than Bizarro (Daniel RF)

Alan Moore killed off Bizarro immediately pre-Crisis, and Htrae was removed from continuity during the Crisis. Since then, however, there have been two Bizarros in DC Continuity - the one created by LexCorp and the one created by the Joker using Mr Mxyzptlk's powers. Since the first LexCorp Bizarro appeared in 1986 (i.e. the same year as the Crisis) there's an argument that can be made that he nearly appreciably left continuity.

Of course, he's most recently been associated with Bizarro Comics and Bizarro world. Collections of non-hero superhero stories by indie authors - I would have thought they would have been exactly your sort of thing?

Not much later, Superman's secret identity was exposed and all the members of his rogues gallery attempt to kill him and everyone associated with him. Superman later discovers that Mr. Mxyzptlk is the villain orchestrating the attacks, and was most likely also the one responsible for Bizarro's strange behavior.

and a page that looks like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bizarrodeath.PNG

FWIW, I barely remember it either and it never appears as part of Moore DC collections.

Aldo's point remains, though - dead or not dead, there's no silver-age Bizarro any more.

I believe that the story appears in the second edition of Across the Universe: the DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore, the one with the Brian Bolland cover.

There's an episode of Superman, the Animated Series, that focuses on Bizarro. Excellent, but not as good as the one what has Gilbert Gottfried as Mr Mxyptlyk.

sissy boy that i am, I wept while re-reading the story in the mid-90s.

THIS IS MY CONTRIBUTION TO DC DISCUSSION.

Plus it was specifically written immediately pre-Crisis so that it would be written out the next month obv.

("the times" - it actually happens MUCH MORE these days but they think there's such a thing as canon now!)

(137 points)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9923/hopey.gif

Dark-haired, bitchy, full of herself and utterly
magnetic – was Hopey an older version of Lucy? (Justyn)

I had an only half-joking crush on Hopey Glass in Love&Rockets — despite my Grate Critic's Brane being perfectly aware that she is nothing if not a Comicbook- Device-by-Which-to-Produce-Pash-in-the- Punky-Fanboy — which I then managed to transfer into a non-joking crush on an extremely Hopey-like friend, with DISASTROUS consequences. crushes on the Hopey-like in Real Life: DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS!! THEY ARE ALL AS MAD AS MAD JACK McMAD!! (mark s)

Greatest moment: "Hay's for horses, ass-bite!" (Douglas Wolk)

(137 points)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Judge_dredd.png

The flagship character for the galaxy's greatest comic, a not entirely subtle parody of the Thatcherite police state that survived that and a lot else over the last 30 years. I've never been that fond of the big epics, but the little done-in-ones where he ends up arrseting everyone are fantastic.

The greatest comment ever on the fascist overtones of the fantasy of the costumed hero. (Douglas Wolk)

Like Batman, Dredd is good because of his world, not himself (Pete Baran)

Greatest moment: Too many to count. Dredd's worst day under John
Wagner is better than 80% of other comics. (Vic Fluro)

Obviously future technology means that the ageing in real time is a bit of a cheat - active lifespan can be as long as the writers need it to be - but definitely Dredd's role in the stories has shifted: he's more of a planner than an action man, and he's gone from being the best Judge of an upcoming generation to a living legend with a mildly anti-system aura - his repeated refusal to become Chief Judge, for instance. There's a younger Judge Dredd running around too, of course - the second Rico (I think).

I don't think Wagner planned any of this at all, of course, but because he's been the main scripter for so long he's been able to steer the ship in mostly sensible directions, and the result is a strip and character of surprising depth when taken as a 30-year ongoing whole! (Probably closer to some of the European single character strips, like Tuomas' favourite Corto Maltese!)

"As the strip occurs in real time, Dredd is currently more than sixty years old. However, his vitality is explained in the context of the stories with allusions to rejuvenation treatments. Recently, characters in the comic have mentioned that Dredd is not as young and fit as he used to be.

Joe is nicknamed "Old Stoneyface", a name he apparently acquired while still a cadet. More recently, he has become known as the "Old Man"; though not confirmed, Joe is likely the oldest Judge still on active street duty."

The idea of a comic book character who ages through the years is very interesting, but it's better fitted for character who have their own monthly comic books, which isn't the case with most European or indie comics. It's a pity so few superhero/action comic publishers have even tried the idea.

Note, though, that "Day By Day With Hopey" started in late 2004, ended in the most recent issue, and takes place over the course of a week...

Um, apart from 52, you berk.

(154 points)

http://basketbhall.blogsome.com/images/meet_linus_big.gif

Linus's recitation from the Bible in the 1965
Christmas special remains the most moving minute of
television ever. It's hard to know what to add to
that. (Justyn)

Indeed.

(x-post)

FINAL DESTINATION 4

(157 points)

http://kalimochoweb.iespana.es/charlieb.gif

Charles Schulz once said that he woke up every morning
with an inexplicable feeling of dread. He poured that
feeling into Charlie Brown, a gentle, likable boy who
is, for no obvious reason, scorned by his peers and
plagued by persistent anxiety and loneliness. "I
wonder if I'm dying," he said to himself during a
hospital stay. "I wonder if they'd tell me if I were
dying…Maybe I'm already dead….I wonder if they'd tell
me." There was something strangely abstract and
Kafkaesque about Charlie Brown's troubles: he seemed
to be a decent ball player and a reasonably good
student, but still the 600-to-nothing losses and bad
grades came. Of course, some of Chuck's problems were
more familiar: Surrounded by friends with
all-too-obvious crushes on him (Peppermint Patty,
Marcie, even arguably Lucy), he obsesses over a girl
he can't even bring himself to talk to. At some point
Schulz seemed to back off from this theme, perhaps
feeling he had revealed too much of himself; it's
possible he never intended to show so much in the
first place. But it gave Peanuts more lasting
resonance than (almost) any other comic strip ever
published. (Justyn Dillingham)

Linus is also, at least in the early years, shockingly competent, preternaturally gifted, and completely unaffected by and possibly unaware of that, which foils off Charlie Brown's obsessions over his mediocrity. But, again, he's also the one who believes in the Great Pumpkin.