Do we have a PAZZ AND JOB 2009 thread yet?

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If so, well, mods, you know what to do.

YOUR MOMS SPOT HERON WITH NO HANDS I'M SMACKIN HER (Beatrix Kiddo), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

e-mail me when we start talking about the animal collective.

scott seward, Friday, 6 November 2009 21:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Email me when we've won the war on terror.

I yanked that sucker hard, and work it did. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

more like pazz and get a job

jØrdån (omar little), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

"the" animal collective

YOUR MOMS SPOT HERON WITH NO HANDS I'M SMACKIN HER (Beatrix Kiddo), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

"pazz and nod off"

YOUR MOMS SPOT HERON WITH NO HANDS I'M SMACKIN HER (Beatrix Kiddo), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

man, i need to change my screen name, like, last week - i'm sick of this thing

YOUR MOMS SPOT HERON WITH NO HANDS I'M SMACKIN HER (Beatrix Kiddo), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pazz is the teacher, Job is the preacher.

Durian Durian (Jon Lewis), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't think they're doing pazz and jop this year. budget cuts.

scott seward, Friday, 6 November 2009 21:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

maybe they'll just do pazz.

STRATE IN2 DAKRNESS (tipsy mothra), Friday, 6 November 2009 21:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

would prefer jop tbh

tylerw, Friday, 6 November 2009 22:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

I don't want to be one of those ppl who are like "every songs a single in the digital age, maaaaan" but i'm having the hardest time trying to find 10 honest-to-god singles i really loved this year

LJ 1214b (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 17 December 2009 22:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

And like every year, I didn't bother voting for singles.

Here's the Top Ten I submitted, btw.

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Thursday, 17 December 2009 22:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

shartin jort (am0n), Thursday, 17 December 2009 22:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

there were so many good singles this year! more than in '08 anyway.

The Plieslight Saga: New Goon (some dude), Thursday, 17 December 2009 22:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

Various Artists, Sí, Para Usted: The Funky Beats of Revolutionary Cuba, Vol. 2

Interesting to see this on yr ballot. It's been out for a few months, at least. Aside from a Dusted Magazine review I spotted this week, I hadn't heard anything about the disc (by contrast, Vol. I seemed to get lots of attention). I'm going to give it a listen now, so thx.

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 17 December 2009 22:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

Top Ten Metal Albums of 2009 to Village Voice Media (which will show up on the Voice's blog, as well as the blogs of numerous other VVM papers across the U.S.A.)

First I've heard of this. Are they doing other genre-specific polls as well? (The jazz one goes back a few years, I realize.)

Btw, re P&J, I asked this on another thread yesterday but nobody noticed: Are people who voted eventually getting an automatic confirmation email back? (I didn't, at least not yet.) Weird that you don't even get to a page where you can doublecheck your votes after you press submit, before you absolutely confirm your ballot (which was always the way the site worked in the past, at least a few years ago.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 17 December 2009 22:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

First I've heard of this. Are they doing other genre-specific polls as well?

I don't know. Last year, one of their editorial high-ups emailed me asking if I'd want to do a metal Top Ten for which I'd be paid a flat fee, and which would run throughout the chain, on the various papers' blogs. I said sure. It got a pretty decent response - varying numbers of comments depending on the paper. This year, I emailed him and asked if he wanted another one, and he said yeah.

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Thursday, 17 December 2009 23:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

I heard so many good singles in the last four weeks that my ballot runneth over.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 December 2009 23:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

pazz & job = why do good things happen to bad records?

unicorn strapped with a unabomb (deej), Thursday, 17 December 2009 23:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Oh hey look:
http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

Go nuts.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hahah simultaneous posts ahoy.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

well lookee here

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

1 Animal Collective, Merriweather Post Pavilion
Domino Points: 1794
Mentions: 154
2 Phoenix, Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix
Glassnote Points: 1463
Mentions: 139
3 Neko Case, Middle Cyclone
Anti Points: 1201
Mentions: 106
4 Yeah Yeah Yeahs, It's Blitz!
DGC/Interscope Points: 1199
Mentions: 114
5 Dirty Projectors, Bitte Orca
Domino Points: 1169
Mentions: 108
6 Grizzly Bear, Veckatimest
Warp Points: 1073
Mentions: 106
7 The xx, xx
Young Turks Points: 977
Mentions: 93
8 Raekwon, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx...Part II
Ice H2O/EMI Points: 857
Mentions: 85
9 The Flaming Lips, Embryonic
Warner Points: 681
Mentions: 65
10 Girls, Album
True Panther Points: 652
Mentions: 63
11 Mos Def, The Ecstatic
Downtown Points: 613
Mentions: 59
12 St. Vincent, Actor
4AD Points: 573
Mentions: 62
13 Fever Ray, Fever Ray
Rabid Points: 551
Mentions: 53
14 Maxwell, BLACKsummers'night
Columbia Points: 525
Mentions: 49
15 The Avett Brothers, I and Love and You
American/Columbia Points: 497
Mentions: 42

(this will surely look a mess when I submit the post... but damn, what a lazy top 15)

Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

Lots of overlap between the albums/singles top 10: six songs in the singles top 10 (Animal Collective, Grizzly Bear, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Dirty Projectors, and Phoenix [x 2]) come from albums in the albums top 10. That's gotta be a record, no?

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

i feel robbed of the fact that no one associated w/ ilx got the inevitable dream essay

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

The The-Dream essay mentions that he got the highest point-average. The lowest (among albums with 10+ votes) was the Decemberists.

More stats:

http://furia.com/all-idols/2009

Even more, and the whole data-set in the system used for tabulating it this year:

http://www.needlebase.com/pj2009

glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hoison/jaymc, you left out Girls, which makes 7. Ties a record; I wrote about it in there somewhere.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

Crazy Cousinz, This Is UK Funky House, Vol. 1
Warner Points: 5
Mentions: 1

:(

samosa gibreel, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

Already read Chuck Eddy's essay complaining about too much indie rock in the top 40. Thought I'd show y'all where my all-Latin ballot turned up in the total.

Bebe - #1384 (I was the only vote)
Graciela Beltran - #1207 (me on my own again)
Bomba Estereo - #501 (one other person voted for them)
Don Omar - #1387 (alone again, naturally)
Girl In A Coma - #645 (one person with me on this one)
Natalia Lafourcade - #180 (THREE other voters!)
Paulina Rubio - #1093 (just me)
V/A - Si, Para Usted: The Funky Beats Of Revolutionary Cuba Vol. 2 - #654 (two votes)
Los Tigres del Norte - #599 (two votes)
Wisin y Yandel - #616 (two votes)

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think these are the worst P&J results I've ever seen.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think that was the worst phil freeman post i've ever seen

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

For some reason I'm shocked to see that many "more eccentric" voters than Scott Seward.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

The fact that Ryan Schrieber is the 5th-most centric voter says everything you need to know.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

rev otm

anyone have any comments?

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

i like xhucx's essay about how boring and predictable the results are

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

lol @ 2009 header being up & having a link up to the 07 poll (?)

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

My comments weren't printed; you can read them here.

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

I had a comment printed (on lol Animal Collective)

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

also: on lol Adam Lambert.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hoison/jaymc, you left out Girls, which makes 7. Ties a record; I wrote about it in there somewhere.

Ah you're right.

I actually just spent the last 30 minutes trying to figure this out! Should've just read your essay first, xhuxk.

But since I've got the stats on hand, these are the years in which there was a lot of overlap between the singles and albums lists:

2009, 1987 (7 songs in the top 10 singles were by artists in the top 10 albums)
1984 (6)
2000, 1994, 1991 (5)
2004, 1993, 1988, 1985, 1983, 1980 (4)

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

favorite ballot: http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/684580

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

good comments unperson.

it's funny i was thinking of a list of all-decade albums if i was actually a rock critic or something and a surprising number of them were local minneapolis bands that pressed in quantities of <1000, like just people i know and stuff but make great music IMO...and part of it was just tied to having had the bands be more a part of my life like seeing them on a regular basis

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

miles marshall lewis needs a 77 invite

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

I liked metal thread denizen J3ff T's comments on the futility of it all.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

though i am glad ol' man raekwon got on the top 10

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's almost reassuring that this is the worst consensus of my lifetime.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

idk i'm too young to really have a deep emotional connection with michael but that ballot is a bit OKAY WE GET IT *APPLAUSE* for my taste -- it's like a ballot that justin timberlake would've sent in

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.
2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.
2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.
2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.
2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.
2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.
2009 was the year of Gucci's World—we were just living in it.

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I've got theories. First off: Lazy indie voters turning a fun exercise into a dutiful one by listing random "singles" off albums they also voted for are the new version of lazy AOR voters who used to vote for perfunctory tracks off albums they also voted for.

I don't think it's as random as you think, xhuxk. I think these days, it's much more obvious what the "singles" are from indie-rock albums, because they're the promotional mp3s that labels release in advance of the album, they're the songs that Pitchfork posts on its Forkcast, they're the videos that make it onto countless blogs, etc. All of this online chatter codifies certain songs as the ones to pay attention to, and I bet there are even people who voted for Grizzly Bear's "Two Weeks" without even having heard the album, just because that's the one that you could download for free on the band's website, or that's the one that was recommended by NPR's All Songs Considered blog, or whatever.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

For the record, Miles Marshall Lewis' original ballot had three entries, all of them Thriller, but I caught it.

glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

MML's Sly and the Family Stone 33 1/3 is a fun read.

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hi Maura!

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hoison/jaymc, you probably have a point. But it doesn't really explain the overlap between the album and singles top tens. It would be less pathetic if there were different indie bands on each list -- which is what's always tended to happen in the past, historically, in this poll, with indie rock and every other kind of music.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

(waving)

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

My "centrality" was .008 (#679 of 692).

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

MML's Sly and the Family Stone 33 1/3 is a fun read.

― forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 19, 2010 6:51 PM Bookmark

^^ love that dude

good article, xhuxk

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 02:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's almost reassuring that this is the worst consensus of my lifetime.

reassuring to me that it's my least-centric ballot ever. i only had two things in the top 100 (jay reatard #79, nellie mckay #94). and my #1 vote for nels cline secured him a 200th-place finish, yay.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

seems to me the boring consensus problem is the result of most balloteers just not having heard enough albums. it'd be interesting to see sum comparative stats on the distribution of mentions across the list. seems the number of albums released and those actually listened to by critics are going in opposite directions.

samosa gibreel, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's almost reassuring that this is the worst consensus of my lifetime.

reassuring to me that it's my least-centric ballot ever.

My albums (final position): Koze (245), Art Brut (75), Quik & Kurupt (62), Tanya Morgan (185), Hyperdub 5 (143), Fiery Furnaces (99), A-Trak (one vote), BMSR (132), Bloody Mary (one vote), Syran Mbenza (818).

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

(I do wish they'd collate the ties a little more clearly, but BELIEVE ME I KNOW what a pain in the ass that is.)

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

Albums — Votes For How to Be a Lady, Volume 1
Marcello Carlin
Tom Ewing
Steve Kiviat
Frank Kogan
Alex Macpherson
David Moore
Jordan Sargent
Julianne Escobedo Shepherd
Al Shipley

sup ilx

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

the results are absolutely atrocious but tbh i'm pretty excited to read the essays. more than a few could be interesting

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

The Dreamer essay doesn't really get to his appeal at all. If I wasn't already a fan, I wouldn't find it convincing.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

really liked xhuxk's essay, but this singles list is seriously abysmal.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

soderberg voting for bp3 is depressing too

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 04:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

and wavves, wow, wtf from one of my fav critics

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 04:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

This might be a dumb question, but how much of Pazz and Jop does the Village Voice include in the print version? Do they print all of the ballots they received, just the names of those who contributed to the poll, neither, something else entirely?

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 04:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

They have a print edition? (Haven't been to NYC in a couple years.)

T Bone Streep (Cave17Matt), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 04:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

usually they print the results, comments, essays and a list of the voters (not their ballots -- that's an online-only feature).

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 04:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

Cool. Would someone mind grabbing a copy and sending one to me in the mail? If it's no trouble, of course. It's kind of silly, but it's a real kick to have my name printed in the Village Voice.

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 04:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

THE FACT I WAS THE ONLY ONE TO VOTE FOR "GUTTER MUSIC" (Starkey featuring Durrty Goodz) IS SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON THE ENTIRE WORLD.

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

Do they not automatically send you a copy of the print edition anymore? I guess they probably don't in this economy.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

idk how "empire state of mind" became the year's critically coalesced huge pop single & not "blame it"

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

anyone who thinks the former is better is obv retarded but i'd guess it has something to do w/ the stars, jay & alicia are way safer rockcrit picks

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's almost as if people were looking for another signature song about fuckin' new york

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't for a second understand why non-NYers can begin to give a shit about that song.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

dude, that song is a fucking tourist trap. my mind is blown that any New Yorker thinks of it as anything but corny garbage

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

Voting "Empire State Of Mind" is like getting your picture sketched in Times Square

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, as I said elsewhere, it's a chart-topping pop song featuring two well-regarded personalities that became a minor cultural phenomenon and that most everybody seems to like, or at least not mind too much.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

whiney otm

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

smh @ this http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/1519966

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

a vote for 'empire state of mind' is a vote for a-rod. THINK ABOUT THAT.

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

looks like schnipper slept on music in 2009

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Do they not automatically send you a copy of the print edition anymore? I guess they probably don't in this economy.

― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Tuesday, January 19, 2010 11:40 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think u can just request it tho

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

smh @ this http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/1519966

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, January 19, 2010 11:47 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

coincidentally his videotaped interview with project pat is one of my least favorite things of the year

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah i'm sure there's plenty of writers w/ better taste who'd like to actually vote in this thing, thanks for playing matthew schippner & that goof who voted for thriller or whatever

xp lol maura

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

Shit, I might've voted for "Empire State of Mind," if I'd voted this year. Jay-Z is kind of terrible on it (he sounds out of breath most of the time), but that hook is pretty damn unstoppable. Plus, I've got a soft spot for hip-hop that samples old soul songs, and there's not enough of it on the radio these days.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

ethan p posted 'for fucks sake' im assuming re: the election results -- i thought about making a joke abt it being pazz & jop related but just settled on kent brockman's 'democracy simply doesn't work' which could also apply here

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

(on facebook)

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

hey i found some more of schnipper's ballots

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

11 of the top 13 LPs and five of the top six singles are shared between this and the Pitchfork list. fwiw.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

dude, that song is a fucking tourist trap. my mind is blown that any New Yorker thinks of it as anything but corny garbage

Voting "Empire State Of Mind" is like getting your picture sketched in Times Square

― forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 19, 2010 9:46 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Ok, I can buy this. My disinterest (beyond being annoyed at mediocrity from an artist I've liked a lot in the past) probably boils down to the fact that I've never been to or particularly cared about going to New York.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 05:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/686073

Hahahahahahahahhahaahha.

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

amazing

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

I noticed DJ/Rupture voting for himself, too.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ten favorite albums? What's an album?

Steve Ciabattoni
Brooklyn, NY

in which year was this comment cryogenically frozen

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

I still maintain that people wouldn't care about OB4CL2 any more than The Lex Diamond Story if it weren't for the title.

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

i can't wait for Purple Haze 2 to be the only rap album in the top 10 of Pazz and Jop 2018

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

Well, Rodney, I certainly agree that the Dre beats are BRICKS. They're terrible. I've actually had people try and defend them to me.

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

Does the 2003 long list still exist somewhere so I can see how many votes Raekwon's last (relatively equal in quality) album garnered?

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

this is better than lex diamond story

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

hes been on fire for awhile though, anyone who copped mixtapes he was dropping in like '06 knew he had this in him. i believe i even *pats self on back* wrote about it in '06

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

Rev, your super-challopy argument about raekwon is fucking stupid and it would have done just as well if he called it "CRANK DAT RAEKWON" because it's a dope album and lex diamond was crap

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

Reverend: http://web.archive.org/web/20040221181050/http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/03/

If it's anywhere, it'd probably be there?

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

whiney is that a note of triumph in your voice from the critical cabal around gucci mane u predicted

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

Those who know me have heard the story a dozen times apiece. When the Strokes still played clubs right after Is This It? came out, I stood in the front row at the Casbah and got biffed in the bean by Julian Casablancas's microphone stand, producing an impressive golf-ball-size knot. Between the head injury and the revelation of hearing "Barely Legal" for the first time, I fell in love on the spot with what became one of my five favorite bands of the decade. Phrazes for the Young is the first time since Room on Fire that I felt a tingle in that phantom spot on my forehead.

Jennifer C. Cooke
Chula Vista, CA

someone needed to inform this woman that the head is not the #1 body part associated with the word "bean"

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

I personally would've loved if he titled it CRANK DAT RAEKWON.
.
The kids would've loved it.

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

deej: good point about him having been killing it for a while prior, but I don't think it really translated to the album

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

gucci would have been higher if dude didn't split his vote between 17 mixtapes

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

with no critical on which was the best

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

My disinterest (beyond being annoyed at mediocrity from an artist I've liked a lot in the past) probably boils down to the fact that I've never been to or particularly cared about going to New York.

The NYC boosterism has nothing to do with why I like it.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

oh come on. do i have to go in & count how many people voted for him?

as far as i can tell, two of his mixtapes got votes, and his one album. also, one random dude voted for a mixtape from 2008. i doubt there were even 12 ppl voting for gucci long players

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

xxxp to whiney

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

What works for me is that "Empire State of Mind" could conceivably be about ANY mega metropolis, EVEN with the very NY-specific references and such. Plus, the emotions it conjures aren't exclusive to NY. Any city you love makes you feel like that.

rennavate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

its a good song bcuz of alicia but it never really resonated w/ me in a big way. i think its an odd #1

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

Grizzly Bear, "Two Weeks" **
Warp

if this song isnt about total recall then fuck indie rock imo

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

Background: this thread
Foreground: every poster besides deej and whiney

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

someone needed to inform this woman that the head is not the #1 body part associated with the word "bean"

I guess someone needs to inform me, too. And Merriam Webster's should fix that fifth definition.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

xps: gawwwd, the idea of "LEEETTTSHEARITFORSEAAAATTTTLLLEE" makes me even more nauseous

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

lol jordan

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

Background: this thread
Foreground: every poster besides deej and whiney

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:28 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he wasnt taking the bait in the gucci thread \o_O/

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 06:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean, you were being monster stupid on the swag thread coming up with some weird inverse critic venn diagram sitch where for every writer that cosigns drake a gucci loses his wings. And then some dude called me psycho on the hugitout thread. I'm just pretty much gonna let this one lie

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

nah i just needed to i-told-you-so after yr shit about all the hipster critics who were overrating gucci cuz it really was you being a vayjayjay about admitting you just didnt agree with those of us on ilx who talk about him

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

the essay about the-dream is really self-defeating in the way that it glosses over electrik red in one sentence by saying that it provides "cheap thrills" but finds ample space to chide people for not being totally up on the-dream

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

the same year that he got a feature 4-star review in rolling stone magazine

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

can someone find the 08 results? i want to see how many ppl voted for his first album

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

wanna say it placed in the 50s

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

really? i wanna say it placed in the triple digits. i think there were at most ten votes for it or something but i could be imagining that

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

or #91, rather

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

ayo glenn can you do something like you did here?: Pazz & Jop 2008

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 08:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

thnx 2 noz for finding one of the funnier ballots to vote for 'trap goin ham'
http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/685700

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 08:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

*smh*

lol @ one of the comments being on the douchiness of "actually". get this dude on 77

i'd look psychotic in a baklava (The Reverend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 08:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

uh deej that allison stewart vote is kinda awesome in way that I simply cannot put into words.

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

wait is that

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

I hope so, she has hotness and we could have a totally awesome platonic but flirty relationship while listening to "White Lies".

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/686367

interesting list

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

snoop dogg smh .gif @ empire state of mind

a hoy hoy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

I kinda disapprove of any votes for Daniel Merriweather's "Impossible".

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

its forks. what can u say.
dap for voting "own step" though, i dig that song

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 09:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Lady Gaga had three singles in the top thirteen and scored votes for seventeen (!!) different songs (and nine of those seventeen were received multiple votes). There has to be a P&J record in there somewhere, right?

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 10:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

lol I've only just seen these. thanks, australian open, for distracting me. horrendous. get better taste, critics.

btw, i hate it when people justify their love of "empire state of mind" by citing its huge hook, as though a) we didn't already know that it has a huge hook - it doesn't exactly hide this, b) no other songs had huge hooks in 2009. i mean yeah there's a hollow power there but one of the TEN best songs of the year? i mean, no way. even its boosters mostly admit that jay-z is shit on it!

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 11:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

and you know, if you want big alicia keys drama, she did "try sleeping with a broken heart" herself in 2009 too.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 11:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

biffed in the bean by Julian Casablancas's microphone stand

I think ur a probotector (cozen), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 12:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't think they're doing pazz and jop this year. budget cuts.

― scott seward, Friday, November 6, 2009 11:24 PM (2 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if only

the not-metal one (Ioannis), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 12:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

hi guys! What's an empire state of mind and how can I buy one?

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 12:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

My annual whine--Not enough critics who listen to stuff other than indie rock participate in the Pazz & Jop poll. The P & J poobahs every year say they reach out to be fully inclusive with the electorate, but it seems some folks who write about non-indie can't be bothered to be part of this or are somehow unaware of the poll. I've tried to encourage fellow writers in the past, but did not do so this year.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 12:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

^^this is becoming my regular whine too.

on the plus side, great essays from maura, chuck and rich juzwiak.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 12:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think the indie-centric nature of the list has been overstated a bit ... I see a lot of fashionable consensus picks at the top (e.g. Phoenix, Animal Collective) but a fairly wide variety of genres represented on the list overall.

I usually complain about the lack of techno on the list, but I understand that it's a fringe genre when you look at the big picture, and am generally happy to see which two or three other people voted for the albums I picked. This year, the dance music hivemind picked Joy Orbison (#20 on the singles list), and even though I'm ambivalent about that single, I find it more interesting to study the consensus that forms within a fringe genre than the consensus that forms around Phoenix being in the top 10 in every publication.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 12:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Glenn's stats mash ups...

All idols 2009
http://www.furia.com/all-idols/2009/
"All·Idols is an autopsy of the album ballots from the 2009 Village Voice Pazz & Jop critics' poll. For All·Idols purposes all ranking and point-weighting is ignored; a vote is a vote."

Winners · All Albums · Similarity · Kvltosis Voters · Centricity · Similarity

including:

Most Eccentric Voters
0.000 Kerry Dexter
0.000 Nana Brew-Hammond
0.000 Todd Burns
0.000 Viva Las Vegas
0.000 William Ruhlmann
0.001 David Royko
0.001 J Poet
0.002 Angela Sawyer
0.002 Scott Seward
0.004 Justin Farrar
0.004 Ken Roseman
0.004 Nathan Birk
0.005 Stewart Voegtlin
0.006 Carol Cooper
0.006 Glenn McDonald
0.007 Miles Marshall Lewis
0.008 David M Snyder
0.008 Phil Freeman
0.009 Mike Wolf
0.010 Anthony Mariani
0.010 Bryan Reesman
0.012 Jace Clayton
0.012 Will Romano
0.013 Eric Arnold

djmartian, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 13:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think the indie-centric nature of the list has been overstated

It's not overstated at all, because it's never happened before, not even close. (But yeah, as I said in my essay, the list gets somewhat less Pitchforky -- and slightly less indie -- past the Top 10. But I doubt the Top 40 has ever been near this indiecentric before, either.)

Surprised nobody else has noted that there are three metal albums in the Top 25 -- which is far and away the best showing for metal in Pazz & Jop, ever. I mentioned it in passing in my essay, but I would have thought that would have deserved an essay of its own. I guess not.

Love Scott Seward's ballot -- for all I know, he made all of these albums up -- but I'm kind of sad he didn't vote for Kid Sister!

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/685429

And here's one reason Lady Gaga got so many diverse singles votes:

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2009/685630

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 13:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

was pazz and jop published early this year? as the official Stats Guru/Savior was Glenn McDonald

djmartian, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 13:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

No, it wasn't published early, I actually did the data-correction and tabulation for real this year, not after the fact. (You can read more about that here if you're interested.)

Matthew Schnipper's ballot originally contained 10 votes for Girls, not just the one.

The-Dream got only 8 votes last year.

Here's a consolidated Gucci Mane report, and a similar one for Lady Gaga.

And as always, I'm happy to try to do any other extractions or calculations that anybody wonders about.

glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 13:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

notice the ilm joke about GAPDY consensus it's statistically proven

GAPDY in order APYDG

http://www.furia.com/all-idols/2009/index.html

# votes album
1 154 Animal Collective · Merriweather Post Pavilion
2 139 Phoenix · Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix
3 114 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · It's Blitz!
4 108 Dirty Projectors · Bitte Orca
5 106 Grizzly Bear · Veckatimest

djmartian, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 13:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

The explorable version of the poll data here has several more views on it, including this voter-overlap for the top 10 albums...

glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 13:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

btw, i hate it when people justify their love of "empire state of mind" by citing its huge hook, as though a) we didn't already know that it has a huge hook - it doesn't exactly hide this, b) no other songs had huge hooks in 2009.

Obviously everyone knows it has a huge hook. I'm not saying that as a nudge, like "hey did you ever notice this hook?" I'm just saying that that's a big part of why I like the song -- which I thought was worth mentioning in response to people criticizing the song for its lyrics or general attitude. Also, I agree with you that other songs had huge hooks in 2009. Some of those songs I like better than "Empire State of Mind," some of them I don't like as much.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

The poll and comments are boring (Maura's excepted), the way people are down on r & b and think a bad year is sign of a greater trend. TOO NEGATIVE and why would you want all that negativity when you are buying music. Also I personally was underwhelmed by a lot of artists at the tops of these polls.

Seems to me a lot of people are still having trouble wrt internet and music. I don't see why the internet is such an obstacle for some people, back in the old days, most people relied on RADIO to get their music, conceptually the internet isn't much different, it's just that the variety is much greater.

I consume music on the internet in much the same way I consumed it when I was a kid: flipping the dials, if I am sick of one style, I go to another one. This poll seems so press-oriented and out of touch with how most people get their music these days.

Lawn Cheney (u s steel), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

Also, I like unperson's all-Latin ballot, this is the future in the USA, better get used to it.

Lawn Cheney (u s steel), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

mike powell's anco essay is typically well-written but (and i'm sure he realizes this) functions just as well as an argument against them as it does an argument for them.

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think what finally made "New York State of Mind" finally click with me was hearing it in a bunch of different settings, it just sounded huge and anthemic - a quality that seems to have been missing from hip-hop for a while now (cue the autogoon crew popping up with dozens of refs to "anthemic" Gucci mixtape moments). I liked how bold and brash it sounded, that's all. Wasn't my single of the year, in fact it wasn't even top five. It just had a quality that a lot of other rap singles have been missing. I mean, all you guys complaining about swag, this isn't Jay's young man swag, this is "fuck you, I run this city" swag.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

i have a lot of mixed feelings abt this whole thing; i get why everyone is disappointed in the consensus this year but i really liked several records that made up that consensus and some of them placed high on my own list. part of me thinks it was a uniquely good year for mass-appeal pop/indie and we have to wait for next year to determine if there's any kind of trend.

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's not overstated at all, because it's never happened before, not even close. (But yeah, as I said in my essay, the list gets somewhat less Pitchforky -- and slightly less indie -- past the Top 10. But I doubt the Top 40 has ever been near this indiecentric before, either.)

I guess what I'm really saying is that I'm not convinced it *means* anything in the long run, I think it's a fluke. There were a handful of indie records that got an insane amount of hype but otherwise (i.e. if you showed me the entire list but removed #1-10) then it doesn't look too different from other years, complete with an inexplicably high showing for U2.

mike powell's anco essay is typically well-written but (and i'm sure he realizes this) functions just as well as an argument against them as it does an argument for them.

Yeah, that's what I loved about it!

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

There were a handful of indie records that got an insane amount of hype

There also wasn't a lot of hype for any non-indie rock from old touchstones - Dylan and Springsteen's were pretty much non-starters once the albums were actually out.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

See, thats kind of what I was wondering. Would people have been more satisfied with the list if perennial faves like Dylan and The Boss had made the top ten? I think that would have disappointed me in a different way.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

Empire State of Mind is awful, the chorus feels like it comes straight out of an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical about hip-hop.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

any year, you can always say "gee, i wish people checked out this obscure stuff only i liked," but its not like that usually makes the top 10. but as much as I find most of the indie stuff negligible personally, i'd still take people ganging up over it instead of 21st century breakdown or whatever.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical about hip-hop

Now I understand why I love the song.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 14:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's not a fluke if things have been headed in this direction for the last several years of the poll (xpost)

aspies like us (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think the main reason its not an "interesting list" is that there's 700 critics voting in it--of course it's gonna be a bunch of consensus choices. The VV Film Poll is super-interesting--and prolly my fave critic poll anywhere--because they cap it at 94 ppl.

One of my rants to Flavorpill re: critics in 2009 is especially apt: There's so many records coming down the pipeline, and they are all so easy to hear that critics mostly have to heed advice of other critics just to decide what to even LISTEN TO. It's not like the 70s where there was 600 records that come out and you can hear all of them. Everyone has LIMITLESS access to EVERY record released, and "records" are easier than ever to release. The only way to decide what to even spin is to listen to other ppl doing the same thing.

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

that's not really true, it's possible to listen to a ton of music and still be on your own path and not really care about what other critics are recommending

aspies like us (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

mike powell's anco essay is typically well-written but (and i'm sure he realizes this) functions just as well as an argument against them as it does an argument for them.

well, it makes me not want to see where the wild things are, at any rate. otherwise the constant "white guys in their 30s"..."adults pretending to be kids"...refrain just made me think, oh fuck the fuck OFF you tiresome dudes and your tiresome mid-privileged-life crises, just fuck OFF, these things are not interesting or worthwhile.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's also possible to cover a micro-beat, a very specific genre where you hear everything that comes out and then you can tell everyone else what the stand-outs that year in that genre are

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

it seems like one could strike a balance between listening to your fellow critics and then checking out other, less well-known stuff in whatever genre's one's interested in

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

Would people have been more satisfied with the list if perennial faves like Dylan and The Boss had made the top ten? I think that would have disappointed me in a different way.

I don't know about "more satisfied", but the narrative definitely shifts if you make just one or two (hypothetical) changes. If you bump Bob Dylan off the list in '06 (remove him completely and bump everyone else up one spot) then it's an indie-centric top 15 without the "indie was big this year but in the end, the old guard won out" storyline.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

that the-dream essay is really not v. good at all

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

one thing that struck me about the trax ballot particularly - it only took SEVEN mentions for a track to place in the top 100?? is that unusually low? because it seems so.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

yay lex we agree on a thing (re: midlife crises etc.)!

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

:D

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

it seems like one could strike a balance between listening to your fellow critics and then checking out other, less well-known stuff in whatever genre's one's interested in

It's possible people aren't - I'm not looking at full ballots of pitchfork types or anything to see what they put between grizzly bear and the xx - but there's no way we'd see that just by looking at the top 40 of pazz'n'jop, where the consensus choices are what would be apparent.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

I really miss the separate reissue category. Wish they'd bring it back.

Jazzbo, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

if all critics are just going to vote for the same records that P4k bumps, it seems like what we really need is fewer critics. or at least fewer indie rock critics, because at this point we can pretty much glean everything about a wide swath of critics' tastes just by visiting one website. still, i'd be more interested in reading more ballots from genre specialists. the most interesting ballots were the most idiosyncratic ones.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

to be fair (if that's the word) to animal collective, their potsy-dotsy childhood-wonder thing has been part of their dna forever. it's not a midlife crisis, it's just plain old arrested development.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

as a lolindie sidenote, it also seems strange that Animal Collective didn't break with Strawberry Jam, which production and songwriting-wise is much more immediate than Merriweather. it was probably a bootstrap thing whereby SJ got them a much bigger audience from 2007-2008, and then when Merriweather leaked there was a huge group of people waiting to hear from it, and the hype machine pushed it to even more people from there.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

pazz'n'jop always tends to reward cult lifers a little after their peak

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

so who's this year's John Hiatt?

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

kshighway otm

We prolly need more actual "critics" and less "internet people" on this list. I think when the poll opened itself up from just a handful of bloggers to TONS of bloggers, it just started reflecting hype machine--which basically is a pazz and jop-style blogger poll that runs all year.

But then again RSS-ville is maybe better than when P&J reflected the Springsteeny tastes of a bunch of 40+ alt-weekly editors?

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

that's not really true, it's possible to listen to a ton of music and still be on your own path and not really care about what other critics are recommending

Sure, it's possible. But I think it's far easier to pay attention to your peers. I don't vote in P&J anymore, but I know that a lot of the stuff that I choose to buy or download is a direct result of recommendations from ILXors or ex-Stylusers. I pay attention to those albums in part because I trust the people recommending them, but also because I want to participate in the discourse around the album. Which only leaves a handful of albums each year that exist outside the critical vacuum.

Btw, I wrote about this issue at length in Stylus a couple years ago:
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/soulseeking/life-inside-the-hivemind.htm

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think the main reason its not an "interesting list" is that there's 700 critics voting in it--of course it's gonna be a bunch of consensus choices. The VV Film Poll is super-interesting--and prolly my fave critic poll anywhere--because they cap it at 94 ppl.

One of my rants to Flavorpill re: critics in 2009 is especially apt: There's so many records coming down the pipeline, and they are all so easy to hear that critics mostly have to heed advice of other critics just to decide what to even LISTEN TO. It's not like the 70s where there was 600 records that come out and you can hear all of them. Everyone has LIMITLESS access to EVERY record released, and "records" are easier than ever to release. The only way to decide what to even spin is to listen to other ppl doing the same thing.

― forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:00 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The number of critics is not the problem. Would you complain if next year a number of additional folks who write about non-indie for websites, magazines, or newspapers decided to submit their names to Harvilla and vote. Regarding your other point, everyone may have "limitless" access to tons of music, but part-time freelance writers with dayjobs and families and whatever else, all use their limited time they have available to keep up on music differently. Alas for some of us, most of the P & Jers use that time mainly for indie.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

2002:

1. Wilco: Yankee Hotel Foxtrot (Nonesuch) 2328 (201)
2. Beck: Sea Change (DGC) 1506 (139)
3. The Flaming Lips: Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots (Warner Bros.) 1227 (111)
4. The Streets: Original Pirate Material (Locked On/Vice) 1189 (101)
5. Sleater-Kinney: One Beat (Kill Rock Stars) 1126 (100)
6. Bruce Springsteen: The Rising (Columbia) 1108 (96)
7. The Roots: Phrenology (MCA) 1092 (109)
8. Eminem: The Eminem Show (Aftermath/Interscope) 1012 (93)
9. Coldplay: A Rush of Blood to the Head (Capitol) 964 (88)
10. Missy Elliott: Under Construction (Elektra)

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

i get a ton of recommendations from ilx - and my like-minded peers here remain probably the most reliably excellent recommenders i know - but i'd feel seriously claustrophobic if it was my only source - i pay just as much heed to UK critics, IRL friends, my own forays into random stuff and so on

actually, v pertinent and interesting is this kogan post-ballot post on where we first heard/heard about the albums/trax on our ballots (mine are in the comments) - http://koganbot.livejournal.com/199238.html

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

Would you complain if next year a number of additional folks who write about non-indie for websites, magazines, or newspapers decided to submit their names to Harvilla and vote.

this is such a weak argument because PLENTY OF people who "write about non-indie" usually end up voting for a few token indie records too--just like many indie critics end up voting for Raekwon or whatever

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

geez i don't care for anything in that 2002 top 10

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

It was the last list to inspire so much....dissent.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean, i don't know what ppl expected. the pazz list is exactly what critics polls on every site and mag have been leading up to all year except throw Neko Case in the middle of a GAPDY top 6 because a lot of P&J voters are older,

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

But then again RSS-ville is maybe better than when P&J reflected the Springsteeny tastes of a bunch of 40+ alt-weekly editors?

in both cases the tastes of one very specific demographic are being over-represented and passed off as the "critical consensus," where there really is no single monolithic critical consensus anymore. either the editors should rebrand this as an indie rock poll, or it should be reconfigured so that there are separate genre polls.

as it is, i don't think P&J is an exercise worth doing anymore. as Whiney said, Hype Machine tells people what the indie blogosphere thinks is hot all year round. we know a lot of indie rock critics and bloggers liked Animal Collective and Grizzly Bear, and making that semi-definitive by polling them is a worthless exercise.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

I love the Neko Case placement, btw. I think the album definitely deserves it.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

This poll seems so press-oriented

Well, that tends to happen when it's a poll of writers.

the main reason its not an "interesting list" is that there's 700 critics voting in it--of course it's gonna be a bunch of consensus choices

But 700 P&J voters is nothing new. And the list is way less interesting than it used to be. (If not the album list, then definitely the singles list. But as I say in my essay, it's not just Springsteen and Dylan who fell short this year. As for whether this is a long-term sea change or a one-year blip, only time will tell. For the people who think the latter, I'd be curious why they think that; are they suggesting that Pitchfork's influence will diminish in the near future? And if so, why?)

One guy commenting on Voice website did find an error in my essay, though; I kind of love this:

Rob Tomshany on Wed Jan 20, 2010, 07:18:26, says:
As a longtime Pazz & Jop watcher I mostly liked your essay, but found one slight error; Los Lobos's cover of "La Bamba" was the title song from the movie of the same name, and did not appear on their top 10 Pazz & Jop album By the Light of the Moon which came out in the same year. That makes only six top 10 P&J singles from top 10 P&J albums in 1987, so this year's seven is a record. (1987 still came close, though; R.E.M.'s "It's the End of the World as We Know It"--from Document, same as "The One I Love"--missed tying for 10th by a single point.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

We prolly need more actual "critics" and less "internet people" on this list.

But, conversely, putting more interesting internet people on the list would probably get more votes to more idiosyncratic albums; by all rights they should take me off of the list, what with not reviewing anywhere for forever, but then that Crazy Cousinz comp would lose its vote :(.

Also tough to draw the line with internet people -- most of the "most central" voters are, I imagine, legit reviewers for alt-weeklies, online sites like Pitchfork or PopMatters or [insert indie site I don't happen to read]. I think everyone who writes at the Singles Jukebox should be eligible to vote in P&J -- not sure what the stance on UK/non-US people is these days -- but under stricter guidelines some of the more interesting writers there might not make the cut. Part of what makes them valuable contributors is not being sucked into to some of the more deadening cycles of music/internet chatter.

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, ksh kind of otm. i don't think it's "not worth doing," i just think it has to be like the film poll and work with a higher standard for what it considers a critic if we want interesting results

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

at this point i'm not even sure what "interesting results" would look like

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

I wonder if the poll spotlighting interesting ballots, like the all-Latin one, might not help this issue. Not only would it add some variety to the same top 10, but it would encourage other micro-beat following critics to submit more obscure lists for next year -- which would in hand start to reshape the general albums list.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

i do wish more UK writers took part - i actually can't think of a single british critic who submits ballots who hasn't been ilx-affiliated, which obviously skews towards "internet people" again - afaik not a single one of my own guardian colleagues sent in a ballot

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpAlso, P&J never really "reflected the Springsteeny tastes of a bunch of 40+ alt-weekly editors," I don't think. The Kevin McFrenches I talked about in my essay were one demographic of critics out of several -- a real easy one to make fun of, even back then. They never dominated the top of the poll as fully as indie voters this year. And their lame singles votes never had much effect on the overall results.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think that's because British writers who aren't "internet people" have no idea what Pazz and Jop is. (xpost)

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

well yes, precisely! but it seems so random and illogical that some british writers contribute to it and others have no idea

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

I want people who do not participate in the previously published critics polls to write. I want the Latin Beat magazine poll participants to vote (even if Rudi thinks they're too NYcentric and vote for too much Latin jazz and not enough salsa); I want Southern soul (Ecko/Malaco type stuff) bloggers to vote; I want California and Texas banda and mariachi fans to vote; I want NY based Haitian compas types to vote; I wanted the contributors to the now in 2010 defunct Los Angeles based Beat magazine(African, Caribbean music mainly) to vote; I want more rap and r'n'b and dahnce and reggae and soca folks to vote.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

i guess what i'm trying to say is partially that, when you ask mostly white, middle class, college-educated males writing for indie rock blogs, indie rock websites, and alt-weeklies what they thought the best albums of the year were, they're probably going to get back to you with a lot of indie rock records. the few people polled who fall outside this demographic, unsurprisingly, tend to vote for different records, but their votes don't affect the overall results very much for obvious reasons.

you get the results you ask for.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't even consider myself an indie-blogger, but when you're sure that the consensus is going to shake out a certain way it's hard to vote for albums that you know will never place in a visible place on the list.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

another thing: in this discussion, "internet people" is more or less a stand-in for "white, middle class, college-educated males writing for indie rock blogs, indie rock websites, and alt-weeklies." hip-hop, metal, electronic, world, etc., etc. bloggers and writers are on the internet too, but their voices aren't heard either because they don't want to participate or because their voices don't dominate the same parts of the internet that most people voting in the poll tend to hang around.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

poll Pitchfork's entire masthead, receive results similar to P4k's own year-end list

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

Comparing to other years, did it take fewer points for AnCo and Phoenix, e.g., to take the top spots? If so, what's happening on P&J is not dissimilar from what's happening on the charts -- the falling ceiling would mean that smaller consensus looks bigger when you make a list. The other question would be whether or not there are more albums TOTAL listed than ever before (someone may have mentioned this already.) It might just be what a "selling 100,000 albums now counts as a really big deal in a way that it didn't before" looks like in a critics poll. But I could be totally off base.

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

The 2002 list is excellent!! Fresh sounds that are accessible, that is how an alterna-list should look.

Lawn Cheney (u s steel), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

The 2002 2009 list is excellent!! Fresh sounds that are accessible, that is how an alterna-list should look.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't like this top 10 either, but i don't see how you vote with any sort of broad pool and not end up with a kind of boring consensus (even if the nature of the consensus shifts over time from say dadrock to alt-dadrock). the film poll model wouldn't do you any good because let's say you limit it to the 100 most prominent critics or whatever -- go look at the top 10 lists from the 100 critics at the biggest publications, and you'll see a lot of animal collective and grizzly bear etc. limit it to one critic each or five critics each from a bunch of different specialty areas (rock, country, hip-hop, jazz, latin, avant-garde, whatever) and you'd get a bunch of interesting individual lists and no meaningful "consensus" at all -- and if you want that you can just scroll through the individual ballots or go look at the lists in the specialty mags and websites.

the problem may be with the democratic poll model. maybe a tournament system would be more fun: nominating committees of specialists could select a handful of candidates in various categories and send a field of 64 things out to fight each other. then the broader voting pool could listen to all of them and vote in each head-to-head matchup. you might still end up with animal collective winning, but everybody would hear a lot more stuff along the way.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

The reason that 2002 list inspired so much dissent is because it's almost as dull as this one.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pazz & Jop, proving once again that the target audience for most music polls are not the people who post to www.ilxor.com

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

mostly white, middle class, college-educated males writing for indie rock blogs, indie rock websites, and alt-weeklies

Take out the word "blog" and this is pretty much just "rock critics" from the beginning of time

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

the more i think about this top 10, the more i'm cool with it in the sense of "if you want to know what critics were talking about in 2009, here ya go." it is what it is - and I'd only be annoyed by its lack of excitement for me if I thought 2009 was an exciting year for music.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah well i thought 2009 was a super-exciting year so maybe that's why all these dull EOY lists grate on me

Take out the word "blog" and this is pretty much just "rock critics" from the beginning of time

is it too much to hope that this might, you know, change at some point?

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Just pulling some data randomly since the P&J archives are useless (if they even exist anymore), here's a stat from ILM re: 2005 that I'm assuming is accurate:

Late Registration on 28.6% of ballots cast
Arular 27.4%

By comparison, MPP was on 22% of ballots cast, Phoenix on about 20%. Not that huge of a difference, possibly not significant at all, but I do wonder if it's a trend. (TVOTR and AnCo had the same number of mentions at #1 this year and last, though I don't remember how many people were in the poll at that point.)

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 15:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

the answer is not getting nichey microgenre obsessives or these mysterious critics of race that you guys think pazz and jop isn't reaching out to (tons of non-white ppl vote in pazz and jop, and NEWS FLASH, African-American rock critics like indie rock too!)

the answer is focusing more on a smaller selection of pan-genre pop critics like Christgau, SFJ, Caramanica, Powers, Harvilla, etc who listen to tons of music that lives outside of the hype machine

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

Imaginary comments on imaginary 1960s poll--"aw man, nothing but Beatles, Beach Boys and garage rock, what about Motown, Stax and all those hard to find Franco records from the Congo"

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

sincere question: if P&J were to only poll the type of critic you want them to, why do you think the results would be more interesting/useful?

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

would there even be a consensus or would all of their ballots be so disparate that it wouldn't be worth doing anything but publishing each one of them individually?

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

Um.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Ha ha, pretty sure what few critics actually existed in the '60s had even less use for garage rock (which wasn't even called that then) than the Supremes, fwiw.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean, i know they'd be more interesting/useful. i guess i'm asking in what way that would be true, beyond the obvious "they would know the field better and wouldn't all vote for Animal Collective"

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

I agree with people who are saying that the top 10 of a large poll like P&J will, by definition, be predictable and "boring". The spots from #11 - ~75, OTOH, now this is where you're hoping to find quirks and surprises. I evaluate a poll (and the diversity of the participants) more from what I see in that section of the list, not from what I see in the top 10.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't understand your point. Lots of the critics you're talking about would probably like the Animal Collective record!

xpost

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Don't get me started on A. Powers, Whiney

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Would hate for Pazz and Jop to turn into the Slate year-end "chats," though. Anyway, this has always been the exact opposite of what Christgau wanted to do with the poll. I think the most reasonable answer would be that anyone with a weak link to some other critical universe should use it to try to get other people on board, but this has been a plea since the beginning.

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

(xpost)

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Who is "Viva Las Vegas"? http://www.furia.com/all-idols/2009/4552.html

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

Alfred: Whiney's point seemed to be that, if we were to poll the critics he was mentioning, we'd get very different results than the ones we got. So, I was assuming that, yes, while some of them would vote for Animal Collective, we wouldn't see the same overwhelming consensus for the same handful of indie rock bands that we saw.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

"The world would be a better place, the Dems would have won in Mass., dogs and cats would live together if they all voted for the Maxwell record."

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

Someone find an individual ballot that has all of GAPDY on it

forksclovetoFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU- (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

Scott Brown is truly my state's Animal Collective

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, if people from across the spectrum all happen to like AC, then great. But Glenn's similarity scores show strong correlations between people who voted for AC, and people who voted for Dirty Projectors and Grizzly Bear, to name two. If you know with a fairly high degree of certainty that voters who like Band A will also like Bands B, C, and D, then you're going to end up with a boring list that will be dominated by a small number of genres.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

just wants a gigantic house in wrentham for his girls

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's the truth

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

poll Pitchfork's entire masthead, receive results similar to P4k's own year-end list

This whole exchange is kind of amusing to me now (pretty sure this was my second-ever post on ILM):

Hey nabisco, et al. -- how come no Pitchfork writers voted in the Pazz & Jop? Seems like writing for the site should be make you far more reputable than some of the freelancers they get lists from. Then again, I don't know what's involved in submitting a list.

Partially, I bring it up cuz I feel like PFM writers could have some sway. At least Enon, who put out such a fun record (#15 on Pitchfork's year-end), wouldn't have to languish at #733 (!!) on P&J02.

― jaymc, Wednesday, February 12, 2003 12:09 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Jaymc: I have no idea how they decide that stuff, but it seems pretty print-oriented to me. I can think of a lot of other issues, too.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, February 12, 2003 2:55 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Like?

― jaymc, Wednesday, February 12, 2003 3:16 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Well, ILM associates seem to be one spot of non-print inclusion -- which, so far as I care, is terrific!

"Other issues" wasn't meant snarkily: I'm thinking of things like the fact that Pitchfork has quite a few writers (do you ask them all to vote?) with a more consistent aesthetic (would they turn into a voting bloc and do you want that?) that's not entirely in line with the Voice's (most of the critics included cover wider varieties of material than Pitchfork as a whole does). (Also I don't imagine Chuck being very into Pitchfork: a hunch.) These aren't giant issues, I don't think (I think several of the individual writers actually aren't a bloc and probably would cover a wide variety of stuff), but it's not as if I'd expect them to sit down and give this careful chin-scratching consideration: it's not like they use loads of people from equivalent web sites and I seriously doubt they're all that bothered about the issue.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, February 12, 2003 3:30 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think it's less about getting certain people to vote than getting qualified people to--people who cover music regularly, basically.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, February 12, 2003 3:33 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

oh man, that whole exchange: prescient.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

the exact opposite of what Christgau wanted to do with the poll.

Well, the really early Pazz & Jops (pre mid '70s) just polled critics he handpicked, right? By it would be hard to go back to that, more than 30 years after opening the floodgates to everybody out there.

Who is "Viva Las Vegas"?

http://vivacide.com/about/vivalicious/

Not sure if she's still at Willamette Week in Portland or not.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

wow, looks like nabisco was......OTM!

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think the "let's get more specialist writers in" position is noble but I don't think it changes "the results" - it means more (better?) records at the bottom of the list, at best a more interesting 50-100 perhaps. But it doesn't change the top 50 whatsoever.

What this list reflects is the lack of consensus around many if any great non-indie records among "boring" critics. I mean, we have to accept that if records we like get into the top 20 it's because a huge whack of critics who are otherwise consensus types put them there.

So the interesting question for me is why only a couple of non-indie records were able to beat the indie-onslaught - notably in the tracks list - and what it is about the ones that did make it that that is distinguishable. Why "Empire State Of Mind", "Bad Romance", "You Belong With Me" in the top 10 but not other stuff? All "anthems" in their respective genres, and in Taylor and Gaga's case it seems the moment when enough steam had built up to bust down genre-based resistance to the artist - lots of critics (myself included in Gaga's case) breaking down and embracing these songs after ignoring or disliking the artists previously.

Why such a marginal presence for R&B in the top 50 (Alicia and Rihanna's Jay-Z choruses, the critically distinguishable "Pretty Wings", the stylistically borderline "Best I Ever Had" and "I Gotta Feeling", then 2008 hit "Single Ladies" at 46) in particular?

Likewise with rap - Jay-Z wins, but then hardly anything else in the top 50 - though both of Jay-Z's other singles, Kid fuckin' Cudi, weirdly "Shine Blockas", Raekwon.

The R&B results look like genre-abandonment en masse. The rap results look like critics lost in a world suddenly unfamiliar and mostly looking for familiar faces to grab onto until the storm passes.

The dance results are curious: if we ignore "Day 'n' Nite" (assuming votes were for the original and the remix) then the top and only result in the top 40 is for "Hyph Mngo", a decent record but not one which deserves such spotlighting relative to other dance music released, and certainly not one which fits the "big anthemic hit by established artist that was also critically popular" mould for non-rock placements.

This suggests to me a similar story as for R&B - mainstream critics just weren't interested this year - with the proviso that "Hyph Mngo" was probably pushed that high owing to a bloc vote from dance critics, or at least dance critics bloc-promoting a track which then gets picked up by less dance-focused listeners ("Raindrops" at 46 feels more like an organic choice from mainstream voters to me). This reflects two things:

1) "Hyph Mngo" (which won Resident Advisor's poll) is the "cross the board anthem" you have when there were no cross the board anthems and no one sub-scene big and exciting enough for that not to matter - it's dance music critics looking for a record that seems best (or least worst) able to play the role of "telling the story of 2009 dance music" and pushing it as such.

2) R&B, which has no similar self-identified critic base to speak of (refer to discussion of this in the Stylus poll thread), relies on the scraps thrown by mainstream critics to get any placings whatsoever - i.e. stuff has to translate as pop-crossover (or push general crit buttons a la Maxwell) to do well at all. I think it's notable that this year the really big R&B records in ILM terms - The-Dream, Electrik Red - weren't exactly massive hits singles or albums wise.

3) Rap structurally should act more like a combination of 1 and 2, getting both scraps from maintream critics and its own bloc push, but maybe this year the mainstream were nervous while the bloc was confused and didn't really unite behind anything - I thought maybe "Shine Blockas" was the default option there but it's hard to say as it looks like almost all its votes were from indie types - was this indie types picking up on rap crit hype, or independently tracking Big Boi for lack of any other old reliable heroes to latch onto?

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

There were four people who listed all five of those indie albums. 18 people had at least 4 of them, 67 had 3+, 176 had 2+, 356 had at least one...

glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

wow

GAPDY Killmore (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hyph Mngo's status as critical placeholder really snuck up on me, it must be said.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

Congratulations Luke Hackney whoever he is for winning the prize for least original taste imaginable.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

http://lukehackney.com/

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

"He also regularly contributes to the Village Voice's annual music critic's poll, Pazz & Jop."

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

Matt I reckon that prize goes to Julie Seabaugh actually. At least Luke voted for "Thao Nguyen with the Get Down Stay Down".

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

don't blame it on luke hackney.....blame it on his wiiiiiiiild heaaart!

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pitchfork gave "Shine Blockas" a 9.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

Have to admit it's interesting that Barry Walters -- a gay man well into his 40s, I believe, from San Francisco who has been writing about dance-pop music for over a quarter century; also, a real good writer fwiw (and the first critic I know who wrote about Scooter, who I voted for this year) -- is one of those four.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

tim's whole post v otm - and i LIKE "hyph mngo" a lot, but as per twitter earlier a) don't get why it, particularly, and not ikonika or joker or guido or a host of same-genre-but-betters; b) it really is a proxy for the whole genre given the total lack of anything else from the same scene

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

The R&B results look like genre-abandonment en masse. The rap results look like critics lost in a world suddenly unfamiliar and mostly looking for familiar faces to grab onto until the storm passes.

also this sentence, while otm, reflects so badly on critics and their so-called critical faculties in 2009

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

"Raindrops" at 46 feels more like an organic choice from mainstream voters to me

haha, no, to me it looks like:

critics lost in a world suddenly unfamiliar and mostly looking for familiar faces to grab onto until the storm passes

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 16:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ha ha yeah those two mean the same thing really!

Re the placement of "Hyph Mngo" relative to other "post-dubstep", I guess combo of:

1) it fits better into house/techno type sets; while
2) not actually being house/techno, hence people have an angle

An actual house/techno record couldn't do well at the moment because of the weird self-hating cul de sac dance crit has wandered into, but even stuff like "Purple City" or "Digidesign" are too closely tied to dubstep's torpidity for them to become the number one consensus people who are still operating in a house/techno framework.

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Dudes his name is HACKNEY. What did you expect? (jk)

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

is the goal of the P&J poll to celebrate originality or to reach concensus?

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's really to celebrate consensus.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

tim's whole post v otm - and i LIKE "hyph mngo" a lot, but as per twitter earlier a) don't get why it, particularly, and not ikonika or joker or guido or a host of same-genre-but-betters

Hyph Mngo has a classicism that's absent in the others (Subeena excepted), and also a hands-in-the-air dancefloor MOMENT element to it that the others lack. It's reference points are things like Pacific State, Papua New Guinea, Halcyon and even So Much Love To Give as much as they are any dubstep.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hyph Mngo elevation is particularly annoying if like me you actually like Wet Look a bit more (maybe one of 09's best double-whammy singles along with Walter Jones I'll Keep On Loving You/Living Without Your Love)

mdskltr (blueski), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

subeena soooo overlooked, her new single is amazing

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

I suppose Hyph Mngo is the track that feels like it would work as well in big fields as it would in dark and grimy basements. It's appeal is pretty obvious (and I don't even like it that much).

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

i dunno, maybe the time for stuff like pazz and jop has passed. maybe they shouldn't do it anymore.

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

And it doesn't help that straight house and techno, especially of the post-minimal variety, has been somewhat short on anthems over the last year or so.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah I can't claim to be surprised or disappointed by the albums list, but the singles list is always more unpredictable and this year it was total shit. I've been thinking for a while about running some numbers on how much of P&J's singles list for any given year is actual Hot 100 charting hits and how much isn't -- might get motivated to do that now if I have the time.

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

fair enough but the #1 p&j single is also a gigantic chart hit, and it's just as shitty as the indie stuff below it.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

and "1901" apparently hit the top 100, tho not by much.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

It cracks me up how when I'm looking at various pages on the P&J site, my browser title bar says "New York Pazz and Jop," but when I'm on the singles list it simply says "New York," as in "LET'S HEAR IT FOR NOOOOO YAAAAWWWWWK"

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

well yeah, didn't mean to imply that the lack of commercial hits is the only thing wrong with the singles list.

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

haha i thought the same thing re: NEW YOOOOOOORK

i thought that was intention!;

GAPDY Killmore (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't even consider myself an indie-blogger, but when you're sure that the consensus is going to shake out a certain way it's hard to vote for albums that you know will never place in a visible place on the list.

How’s that? All 1,934 albums are listed on the same page. It would still be nice if ballots allowed for up to 50 or even 100 albums though.

Whiney: the answer is focusing more on a smaller selection of pan-genre pop critics like Christgau, SFJ, Caramanica, Powers, Harvilla, etc who listen to tons of music that lives outside of the hype machine

Exactly! My idea was dismissed on previous threads, but I think the ballot should include an estimated number of albums the voter had listened to, and allow readers to sort the results if they choose to factor that in.

My suggestions for improvements aside, I really don’t see the point in griping about Pazz & Jop every year. I’m unconvinced by the argument that it’s “less interesting” this year than any other year.

Fastnbulbous, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

I've been thinking for a while about running some numbers on how much of P&J's singles list for any given year is actual Hot 100 charting hits and how much isn't -- might get motivated to do that now if I have the time.

Would LOVE to see that, Al.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

Figured out the decade in percentages of voters voting for #1 and #2 albums

2001: 38% 1st place, 25% 2nd place
2002: 29% 1st place, 20% 2nd place
2003: 42% 1st place, 29% 2nd place
2004: 31% 1st place, 21% 2nd place
2005: 29% 1st place, 27% 2nd place
2006*: 19% 1st place, 20% 2nd place
2007: 24% 1st place, 26% 2nd place
2008: 27% 1st place, 18% 2nd place
2009: 22% 1st place, 20% 2nd place

So 2009 actually looks like an anomaly here in terms of how few voters overall voted in the #1 album (except 2006 which had a ton of different issues). Would be interesting to see if this has happened at other points in the poll's history, will check it out. One question I have is where the extra 100 voters between last year and this year came from (696 up from 577).

The gap seems to have closed in 2005 between the #1 and #2 album -- Christgau wrote at the time that it was the closest 1-2 finish (between Kanye and MIA) in the poll's history, but it seems to have repeated itself just about every year since, except for 2008. But it's also possible that each year in which this happened after 2005 was due more the general shake-up at the Voice plus fewer voters overall than a trend.

I'm guessing that total albums listed have increased dramatically this decade.

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 17:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

except 2006 which had a ton of different issues

Are you just referring to the boycott of P&J by voters who defected to Jackin' Pop? Or something else, too?

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

where the extra 100 voters between last year and this year came from (696 up from 577).

I was actually wondering whether Glenn McDonald recruited metal voters! (Which would help explain that mysterious Mastodon/Baroness/Converge convergence between #18 and #24, which apparently nobody but me cares about. Not to mention Sun O))))))))))))))) at #42, maybe.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

^^^best thing about this year's poll results imo.

the not-metal one (Ioannis), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

Your musical compatibility with lukehackney is Very Low

Music you have in common includes Grouper, LCD Soundsystem, Blonde Redhead, The Cardigans and The Blow.

thank fucking fuck for that, last.fm. ps who are the blow and when did i listen to them, lol

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

you don't remember because the blow is a band that reviews themselves

GAPDY Killmore (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

dude really likes m. ward

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

the(y) blow

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

you don't remember because the blow is a band that reviews themselves

A curious sentence.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 18:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Re the placement of "Hyph Mngo" relative to other "post-dubstep", I guess combo of:

That song was in the Pitchfork top 20, was made a big deal of on Pitchfork, etc. 30% of its voters are Pitchfork staffers.

Also, two of the seven all-metal voters are Pitchfork's primary metal writers the past few years. (The others voted 7/10 and 5/10)

And six of the nine people P&J asked to write essays have written for Pitchfork in some capacity, including the two primary editors of the whole thing.

So to blame us for just the indie stuff ignores that, again, most of our non-indie selections are also the same ones picked out here; and to blame us for crashing the gates is silly since the two top names on the masthead of pazz and jop are p4k vets.

//

hell, also:

* in general, I don't see why it's weird to anyone that nominally indie rock is at the top of this. Rock music made by 20s and 30somethings presumably *always* was pretty well at the center of this stuff. Today almost any of that stuff that gets any critical traction is under the pointless tent of 'indie', whether its yyys or lcd or spoon or hold steady or some tiny band in williamsburg - or hell even electronic (v acoustic/electric) artists like mia or hot chip or anco. The change is with rock music more than it is with critics. This is what rock music made by and for adults looks and sounds like now.

* e.g. I don't see anyone here riding for radio-ready modern rock and complaining about Kings of Leon. I don't see them plumping for Flo Rida or BEP whatever either. In fact in all the hand-wringing I see very few realistic alternatives that people "should" be making, which makes me wonder what people thought would place high on this thing instead of what actually did.

* "stuff pitchfork covers" isn't just an indie diseases here-- take any music not made by boomers, performing in any genre, and it matches up well with our publication. (e.g. a full 30 of the top 34 songs also made the pitchfork list; exceptions: BEP, Kings of Leon, Avett Bros., and a Lady Gaga song that was tossed because she already had two spots on the list)

* more examples: the four metal lps in the top 50 here are the same as the four in our top 50/hm; five of the six hip-hop lps in the top 62 here are the exact same ones on the pitchfork list as well; the two r&b lps in the top 50 are the same; The *whole thing* matches up with our sensibilities, so long as we cover that genre)

* Which is another way of me saying for the 100th time: we cover a lot more than the indie stuff, and I think we can direct people to more than that too. If anything, with our readers, it's safer to say they'd have found Phoenix regardless and what we do more than anything is expand their POV, which I've said previously as well: For all the shit we get, I think our coverage of pop over the past seven years arguably did as much for "poptimism" as anything else. certainly more than the one time the NYT published an article on it, or whatever gets credit for that. (e.g. I assume joy o and shine blockas weird placements are more due to us than, say, phoenix or yyys)

*last thing, which amazes me is almost never brought up in these handwringing threads, is everyone says "it's too bad there aren't more crits who want to write about x, y, z" and I would guess there are plenty of them-- but there aren't many readers who want to read about that stuff.

In the internet-era, when there is way less guesswork about what readers want from critics, I don't see much evidence from consumers or whomever that people want to read analytical or intelligent writing about, say, R&B or modern country, or even most metal. Maybe I'm wrong and there is some sort of place for discussion of this stuff, but I've seen us and RA and Stereogum and some other places thrive and/or get a foothold while the old VV, Blender, the thing CNET tried to start, Maura's Idolator, Stylus (which was about 5% less indie than p4k anyway) drift away and I feel like by now everyone complaining about that or missing them are people, say, posting in this thread. Don't get me wrong: And I say that regrettably, it's an awful state for music criticism to be in, but after watching this happen for five years I have a pretty realistic and less romantic view about it than I used to. This is the way it is and unless you turn the people who do want to discuss and read about music online (i.e. who many of you would call "indie fans") into R&B fans too, I don't see where the audience for this stuff comes from.

And, so, it's possible, just possible, that it was *always* like that-- and a lot of outlets were publishing a lot of words about a lot of things their readers cared zero about, and now that we have fairly direct metrics to sort out what readers do like, that is being exposed.

don't mean to sound either confrontational or triumphant, just feel a little defensive in the face of some of the finger-pointing and I think a lot of it is a matter of scapegoating us for the things one doesn't like but never giving any credit for things that you all do like about these results.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

hell, I'm sure there are a lot of typos there, which is what I get for hastily tossing thoughts off the top of my head and not re-reading, anyway..

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

re: the first bulleted point up there, I didn't close my thought, but shit like spoon or yyys or THS is only indie these days by default; it's basically just "rock" but since there is no place in the marketplace to validate rock music that isn't utter lunkhead third gen grunge or made for pre-teens, it's all called "indie" and it appears that "indie" is growing when more to the point "rock" is contracting

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

Are you just referring to the boycott of P&J by voters who defected to Jackin' Pop?

The boycott (and in some cases just plain lack of interest after the firings at the Voice) was a part of it, but generally I just meant the participation drop from about 800 critics in '05 to 500 in '06, the lowest number of critics polled since at least the 90s (not sure which year participation was comparably low).

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't know that anyone is "blaming" Pitchfork for the indie stuff, or claiming that indie stuff is the only thing Pitchfork covers, either. (And I do agree that the genre "indie" is really vague now -- in the top 10, for instance, do YYYs or Flaming Lips or New Pornographer Neko Case even fit the genre? I honestly have no idea. Which was one reason I didn't try to quantify indie vs not-indie in my essay.) What I tried to get around in my essay was (1) the unprecedented overwhelming domination of a single aesthetic, or what is perceived to be a certain aesthetic, at the top of the poll; (2) the poll's unprecedented overlap with a poll published by a website largely dependent on that aesthetic (i.e., my problem isn't that Pitchfork exists, but that P&J voters suddenly seem so reliant on what it's already decided counts as good music); and (3) most dumbfoundingly for me, the overlap between the singles and albums results, only with records that people associate with that aesthetic. Maybe that really is "just the way it is" now. But it wasn't always. It's something new, and it's worth figuring out.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

scott: all great points, as usual! my only question would be: why do you think P4k, Stereogum, and RA are "thriving" while those other publications you listed aren't? because the former are writing to a large audience that wants to read about indie and related music and the latter were more esoteric?

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

(i read what you posted twice, just trying to think it through a bit more.)

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

In the internet-era, when there is way less guesswork about what readers want from critics, I don't see much evidence from consumers or whomever that people want to read analytical or intelligent writing about, say, R&B or modern country, or even most metal.

Is this also your reasoning for dropping the reggae/dancehall column? Monthly grime column ok, ocassional cd reviews of Afropop and r'n'b and metal and and reggae reissues ok, but nothing more.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

Do Tim Finney's ocassional reviews of R'n'b on Pitchfork get less internet hits?

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

curmudgeon: well the main reason was that Dave Stelfox moved and that coincided with us moving from five/features a week to three -- something had to go. You could blame the economy as much as anything else.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

I actually tried going back to previous P&J Top 10s, fwiw, and counting the number of indie artists in each. But it was basically impossible, because there are so many grey areas in the definition -- where do you put Portishead, Santogold, Nick Cave, Radiohead, M.I.A., Danger Mouse, White Stripes, Drive By Truckers, Modest Mouse? So I put that piece of paper away. Thing is, no matter how stringently or liberally you define the genre, no Top 10 came close to 2009's in terms of artists that people somehow associate with the genre. And by my count, there are at least five, probably six (Phoenix?) artists this year where there's no grey area at all. As far as I can tell, that's never happened before. And the singles Top 10 is way beyond any previous year's total; again, I'd be more comfortable if it at least had different indie artists on it than the album list. As is, it just looks retarded.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

1978
1. Elvis Costello: This Year's Model (Columbia)
2. The Rolling Stones: Some Girls (Rolling Stones)
3. Nick Lowe: Pure Pop for Power People (Columbia)
4. The Clash: Give 'Em Enough Rope (Epic)
5. Talking Heads: More Songs About Buildings and Food (Sire)
6. Bruce Springsteen: Darkness at the Edge of Town (Columbia)
7. Ramones: Road to Ruin (Sire)
8. Neil Young: Comes a Time (Reprise)
9. The Cars: The Cars (Elektra)
10. David Johansen: David Johansen (Blue Sky)

Since I'd argue most of these albums come from what can easily be perceived as a "single aesthetic," does anyone know if this is basically what Rolling Stone was praising at the time? There's no singles chart for P'n'J yet so I don't know how much overlap there would have been.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

look at all the white ppl

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

oh to return to those unpredictable days when top 10s looked fresh and unusual

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

Well, 1978 is also the year that Christgau wrote his essay about "new wave hegemony," right? He was worried then that one aesthetic was coming to dominate the poll. (Black artists did really shitty, too, as I recall, partly in the wake of "disco sucks.") I'd say that Top 10 looks more homogenous in retrospect than it did then (I'm not sure; I wasn't writing about music yet.) But his 1978 essay was to some extent in the back of mind when I started thinking about the 2009 results.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

(3) most dumbfoundingly for me, the overlap between the singles and albums results

Singles used to have a somewhat objective definition - something you could hear on the radio or see a video of on MTV. Now any artist can make a video and upload it to YouTube, hence the explosion of what qualifies as a single. I think the old pattern was that critics would vote for their less mainstream favorites under albums and then the mainstream stuff would go under singles. Now the mainstream is whatever you want it to be, so there's less need to go outside your musical comfort zone for singles picks.

o. nate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp And right, there wasn't a singles poll until a year later. But in 1979, the only Top 10 single overlapping with the album Top 10 was by Donna Summer. (Not a white ppl.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

FWIW the 'research shows the readers don't want that' doctrine pretty much destroyed the NME, in terms of both readership and quality.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

There were always plenty of "non-mainstream" singles in the poll, though. (In fact, the singles poll was the first place that indie label rock -- the Brains, Robin Lane & the Chartbusters, Bush Tetras, Pylon -- actually placed. None had an album that did comparably well.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

Since I'd argue most of these albums come from what can easily be perceived as a "single aesthetic," does anyone know if this is basically what Rolling Stone was praising at the time?

RS 1978:

Best Album
• Some Girls - Rolling Stones

Runners-Up
• Darkness On The Edge Of Town - Bruce Springsteen
• Running On Empty - Jackson Browne
• This Year's Model - Elvis Costello
• Road To Ruin - Ramones
• Misfits - Kinks

Best Single
• Stayin Alive - Bee Gees

Runners-Up
• Life's Been Good - Joe Walsh
• Miss You - Rolling Stones
• Because The Night - Patti Smith
• Rock And Roll Fantasy - Kinks
• Werewolves Of London - Warren Zevon
• Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
• Just What I Needed - Cars

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

If "singles" were limited to songs heard on the radio and seen on MTV it would definitely be a consensus, what with shrinking playlists everywhere.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

I definitely think the singles homogeneity is more concerning (i think that the "no reason to go outside musical comfort zone" has a lot to do with it) than the "homogeneity" of the album choices. The top ten is always about forming a canon, and since no one can really come up with some obvious LPs being ignored, I'd just say it was a year where you didn't have a lot of canonical LPs coming from pop, r&b, etc. But "hipster shit" tends to dominate whenever there aren't a lot of undeniable popular works outside of it - as Scott notes nobody's screaming "where are the black eyed peas???" - and this year just had fewer pre-indie canonical fogies of note to make the list look less pitchforky.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

FWIW the 'research shows the readers don't want that' doctrine pretty much destroyed the NME, in terms of both readership and quality.

I don't think it's research so much as dollar votes and actual measurable metrics (i.e. hits)-- and I do think there is a lot more history of quality music writing in the UK tbh. There were far more music mags of note there, despite the smaller population.

(more defensiveness: fwiw, we don't trend toward embracing the lowest denominator anyway-- we write often about what we want to cover instead of waiting to sort out what readers might like, and we print lengthy reviews while everyone else is doing the opposite.)

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

There were always plenty of "non-mainstream" singles in the poll, though

Sure, there were, but they were usually limited to tracks that had a physical release as a single, like on a 7-inch. Since not every band released stuff on 7-inch, there was an upper limit on how much overlap there could be with the albums.

o. nate, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

top 5 selling albums of 1978:
1 Saturday Night Fever - ost
2 Grease - ost
3 Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (#1 seller of 77!)
4 Billy Joel - The Stranger
5 Steely Dan - Aja

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

btw, for anyone who followed my attempt to review 1000 2009 releases over twitter, here are the 10 highest ranking records on Pazz And Jop and why I didn’t end up reviewing them. dunno what some of these exactly say about my "worldview" or "how I hear music"

43. Allen Toussaint – The Bright Mississippi
N0nesuch hasn’t sent me an e-mail in five years. I literally have no concept whatsoever of what’s happening over there at any given time. I literally didn’t even know this record existed until today. I saw Allen at Bonnaroo and he was amazing. What can I say?

50. Vijay Iyer Trio – Historicity
Everyone was raving about this record around September. I tried at least five times to steal a leak on the internet but “universally acclaimed jazz record” doesn’t exactly get as many Rapidshare hits as 'important' stuff like “Japandroids demos.” I literally tried but COULDNT FIND a leak of this record. Jazz nerds need to step their internet game up. I probably should have reached out to the label, but I had like 300 other records to hear and it got lost in the shuffle. I ended up hearing a copy in laaaaate December as i was in the home stretch and didn't really have room for it.

72. The Black Crowes – Before The Frost… Until The Freeze
It’s the Black Crowes. I promptly judged this book by its leather fringe, patchouli-soaked cover and avoided it entirely. Is this good? I don't believe it.

73. Loudon Wainwright III – High Wide And Handsome: The Charlie Poole Project
I respect his legacy and all but this dude’s stuff is like the Paste magazine jams that are just totally off my radar.

87. Buddy And Julie Miller – Written In Chalk
Them too.

90. Built To Spill – There Is No Enemy
Built To Spill make some of the most boring, uninteresting music I’ve ever heard. After hearing hundreds of bad indie rock bands that rip them off in 2009, the prospect of sitting through an album by them literally disgusted me. I was praying it would be just some probly-6.0-on-Pitchfork nineteenth album by some band people don’t care about anymore. But instead I was wrong and here we are.

94. Nellie McKay – Normal As Blueberry Pie: A Tribute To Doris Day
I was bored just reading the title. What the fuck

103. Vic Chesnutt – At The Cut
R.I.P., dude. I still have no idea what your music sounds like.

115 Lee Fields & The Expressions – My World
I bet I would have liked this. I never heard of it until now.

122. Franco & Le Tout Puissant OK Jazz – Francophonic, Vol 2
I need to hear more jazz apparently

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

1978 music consumers >>>>>>>> Pazz Joppers imo

more like Nick LOL

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

quick think of 10 critically popular bands that broke after 1989 that aren't remotely "indie"

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

xxp 43, 50, 72, and 90 are all over 140 characters.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Green Day, System Of A Down, The Roots

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

and with RATM you have 4

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

U2

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

oh wait, scratch that

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

pretty sure they broke before 1989

xpost haha

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

The Prodigy

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

PJ Harvey

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, she's folk, right

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

nah she's blues

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

i guess she's not a band, though

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Do Outkast, Wu Tang, etc. count as bands?

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

PJ Harvery is a band whose lead singer is Polly Jean Harvey, kind of like how Sade is a band fronted by Sade Adu.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

Harvery

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

saying Green Day (or RATM) are not remotely indie reeks of massive revisionism.

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

DOKKEN

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

idk wtf is wrong with my typing today

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

*crosses fingers in the hope that this thread devolves into a crazy bunch of posts about what is and isn't indie.*

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

Mastodon, Queens Of The Stone Age, Dixie Chicks (or, if they're too early, Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings. Or Tinariwen. Or Kings Of Leon.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

those nu metal and post grunge bands that sold shitloads arent remotely indie.
Hootie as well.

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

My Morning Jacket

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

indie - guitars, distortion, bad singing
not indie - a vagina

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

Fluxblog on xhuxk's article:

This is an extraordinarily depressing essay by former Voice editor/professional contrarian Chuck Eddy. It’s like a guy who used to be principal of a high school getting really angry about the outcome of his old school’s student council election.

http://perpetua.tumblr.com/post/344479080/the-year-of-too-much-consensus

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ha ha.

Oh wait, '89? I thought you meant '99. '89 is easy.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

those nu metal and post grunge bands that sold shitloads arent remotely indie.
Hootie as well.

Right, but they're not "critically popular."

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

wow, there's a lot of discussion going on about xhuxk's essay on Tumblr.

see T0m E.'s Tumblr: http://tomewing.tumblr.com/

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, none of that is indie-rooted or appeals to indie kids. The only that applies I think is SOTD and they, you know, sucked.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

Kings Of Leon were definitely indie when they came out, could even make cases for QOTSA and maaaaybe Mastodon (though by there you're definitely into "non-indie that indie folks like").

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah but all three of those bands sounds different^^^!

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

I refer you to my previous post.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah but "a vagina" is your answer to everything

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

touche

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

how long into our vessel reaches curvy colombian waters?

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

My friend raises this interesting point...

if it's so terrible that indie rock is in the top 5, what SHOULD have been there? Like and I mean things that people could actually rally behind, not just random shit you like

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

Tom Ewing: "It’s like when I first started blogging and I got the reputation of being fiercely pro-pop and anti-indie, and I played up to that a little bit, but what I was being contrary against was my immediate online vicinity."

THAT, my friends is indie guilt defined.

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

gucci mane seems to be getting a bit of attention online...

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

whiney, is your friend scottpl?

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

I can easily see The-Dream or Maxwell (neither of whom I like much, btw) finishing Top 5 in an earlier of era of P&J, Whiney. For starters.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think Tom's onto something here:

My point is that at the moment we have one very big taste-cluster and it’s centred on the Pitchfork Top 10. This is no fault of Pitchfork’s and indeed the editors and publisher should be very proud and happy about it. But there’s also no reason why competing large taste-clusters shouldn’t exist, large enough that P4K’s Top 10 only crosses over with 30% or 40% of the P&J Top 10.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

Neither The-Dream or Maxwell making the top 5 would really make my day, personally. The-Dream would especially be a case of P'n'J praising the album after the one they should have.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think what finally made "New York State of Mind" finally click with me was hearing it in a bunch of different settings, it just sounded huge and anthemic - a quality that seems to have been missing from hip-hop for a while now (cue the autogoon crew popping up with dozens of refs to "anthemic" Gucci mixtape moments). I liked how bold and brash it sounded, that's all. Wasn't my single of the year, in fact it wasn't even top five. It just had a quality that a lot of other rap singles have been missing. I mean, all you guys complaining about swag, this isn't Jay's young man swag, this is "fuck you, I run this city" swag.

― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:43 AM (5 hours ago)

i know this will have already been addressed but it sounds awful like you're grading on a curve here - "well hip hop sucks and this is the only one i heard on the radio so i'll vote for this!" cool if you dig the big hook or whatever, but it's a failure as a rap song considering, you know, jay is a below-average rapper and he sounds as awful on this as he's sounded for the last five years. and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

"...sounds an awful lot like..."

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

I was actually wondering whether Glenn McDonald recruited metal voters! (Which would help explain that mysterious Mastodon/Baroness/Converge convergence between #18 and #24, which apparently nobody but me cares about.

I care very much. Both Mastodon and Baroness were high in my ballot. I think it's also remarkable that Sunn O))) (#42) beat out Them Crooked Vultures (#58), a band with considerable star power. Also:

Kylesa, Static Tensions (71)
Cobalt, Gin (136)
Slayer, World Painted Blood (160)

Still plenty of stadium rock with Muse, Wolfmother, Cheap Trick, Alice in Chains, Black Crowes, Pearl Jam, arguably Dinosaur Jr. I didn't even know about the Black Crowes album.

Fastnbulbous, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

also the closest analogy in an earlier top 5 to maxwell's album(cult r&b figure with some pop success finally makes another album) would be erykah badu at no. 5 last year, which wasn't that long ago.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

PJ Harvery is a band whose lead singer is Polly Jean Harvey, kind of like how Sade is a band fronted by Sade Adu.

i think this was the case until TBYML - since then she's been pj harvey, solo artist.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

fair point, although I like to think that in the context of the time frame being discussed I'm still right

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

how long into our vessel reaches curvy colombian waters?

Into?

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

typo but then again

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

last year, which wasn't that long ago

Which was the point of my essay, partly.

we have one very big taste-cluster and it’s centred on the Pitchfork Top 10. ...there’s also no reason why competing large taste-clusters shouldn’t exist, large enough that P4K’s Top 10 only crosses over with 30% or 40% of the P&J Top 10.

Which was another point of my essay.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

i know this will have already been addressed but it sounds awful like you're grading on a curve here - "well hip hop sucks and this is the only one i heard on the radio so i'll vote for this!" cool if you dig the big hook or whatever, but it's a failure as a rap song considering, you know, jay is a below-average rapper and he sounds as awful on this as he's sounded for the last five years. and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

First of all, I don't think the song is fatally flawed. Secondly, I don't think Jay sounds that awful. I think it's one of the only two songs on the album where he actually sounds somewhat inspired. Of course it isn't a patch on his glory days, but I think his flow fits the song pretty well. I voted for it because I think its a fucking great pop song with a lot of swagger, not because its a well executed example of hip-hop. I guess I might have brought this on by making my point about hip-hop lacking "anthems" lately, but whatever. Also, fuck you for the inference that I don't listen to enough singles.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

the point of your essay (partly) is that a type of album that made the top 5 in 2008 only made it to no. 11 in 2009?

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

sorry, no. 14.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

and my point in pointing that out is that cult r&b comebacks HAVEN'T regularly made the top 5...unless you wanna count the Neville Brothers in 1987 or something.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

Maybe that was a little overboard, but ffs I hate that more than anything, "you have different taste than me, so you must not listen to enough music to be as enlightened as I am"!

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

Of course it isn't a patch on his glory days

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

My annual whine--Not enough critics who listen to stuff other than indie rock participate in the Pazz & Jop poll. The P & J poobahs every year say they reach out to be fully inclusive with the electorate, but it seems some folks who write about non-indie can't be bothered to be part of this or are somehow unaware of the poll. I've tried to encourage fellow writers in the past, but did not do so this year.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 6:44 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

i just want to say and i know this has been addressed upthread to some degree (also, whiney OTM re: black people like indie too) but basically the thing about becoming a critic & being aware that you're voting in this poll is that for 99% of all-genre critics, they go through a not-well-thought-out bit of "what does REAL MUSIC sound like?" that ends with rap critics giving up a lot of ground to other genres aesthetically (& im sure the same is true to some degrees with other genres) -- that just the act of seeing yourself as a critic is like "maybe i should find out what these yeah yeah yeahs sound like" & that 'interesting ballots' that reject critical consensus as a baseline of appreciating music are usually the product of ppl who are concentrated on an aesthetic outside of crit, who are self-aware enough to look at what ppl are listening to who dont exist wholly within an indie rock consensus bubble -- i.e. andy k's list, which yes has a few indie-approved albums, but it genuinely feels like a list with a strong aesthetic worldview that is informed by multiple discourses & filtered through his own worldview, that hes not simply like "man i love all these R&B records but animal collective are very 'worthy'"

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

jon i deliberately distinguished the parts of that 'graph where i was responding to you and where i was talking about all the "yeah jay's kinda boring, but great hook!"

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

but whatever, let's get angry

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

& here's the thing i really really strongly disagree w/ scott about -- (or maybe i agree with him, and i just think it needs to be stated this way) -- the idea that readers of criticism dont care about R&B is, in my opinion, a failure of RHETORIC. That the values celebrated in this poll & on pfork are not nearly as written in stone as they may appear.

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

My official involvement was strictly data-handling after the ballots were submitted, I didn't do any recruiting, metal or otherwise. Not intentionally, anyway. Obviously I can't control the massive internet ripple effects caused by my offhand comments in Rolling Metal. But I don't actually like Mastodon, Baroness or Converge, myself, so if it was a subconscious secret plot on my part, it backfired.

The results of the ILM Metal poll are interesting in this regard, but Kerr is still rolling them out in another thread, so I won't spoil his slow reveal.

glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

Like I said, I didn't vote this year. I'm not even convinced it would've made my list if I had.

But I wouldn't say that it's "fatally flawed" -- sure, Jay-Z doesn't sound that great on it, but there are other aspects of the song that more than make up for that. I don't always listen to rap for the rapping.

And even if wouldn't have made my hypothetical P&J ballot, it's still in my top 10 R&B/hip-hop singles of the year, along with Amerie's "Why R U?", Mos Def's "Casa Bey," DJ Quik and Kurupt's "Hey Playa!," The Clipse's "I'm Good," Ciara's "Love Sex Magic," Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," Whitney Houston's "Million Dollar Bill," Kid Cudi's "Day N Nite," and The-Dream's "Sweat It Out."

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

Why? Jay's flow is weaker than it used to be, but there's a lot more to the song than just his delivery. Alicia owns the hook, my favorite part of the song and I really actually love the beat. So, yes, the vocals can be a little lackluster compared to earlier Jigga, but still be one of the ten best singles of the year.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm not angry, I just hated the inference whether it was aimed at me or not. It's lame.

And ha to jaymc getting to the same point as me.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that. (I thought by #11 you meant Mos Def!) (And yeah, I don't want to quibble about the specifics of r&b comebacks; I'm not about to look at all those past years' polls again. I've done that enough for one month. My point is that having a cult r&b album or two in the top 10 -- say, D'Angelo's at #6 and Jill Scott at #9 in 2000 -- was hardly a rare occurrence in the past. If you're right about them never making the top 5, I stand corrected.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

This is bullshit. If you think a song is one of the best songs of the year, regardless of how it compares to the rest of the artist's output, you should vote for it. THIS is not only grading on a curve, it's grading on one horribly unfair to anyone who ever releases something that gets universal acclaim.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

and xps to myself, the idea that the audience for criticism is set in stone is not correct, i dont think -- you speak to a crowd, the people who you speak to are gonna respond. there are lots of people out there who arent reached by criticism because people arent reaching them in the right way, imo.

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

HI DERE otm

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ciara's "Love Sex Magic,"

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

I don't always listen to rap for the rapping.

yeah i get this but you can't really get away from the rapping in a rap song, and jay-z's flow on ESOM makes me flinch even if i try to ignore it.

This is bullshit. If you think a song is one of the best songs of the year, regardless of how it compares to the rest of the artist's output, you should vote for it. THIS is not only grading on a curve, it's grading on one horribly unfair to anyone who ever releases something that gets universal acclaim.

i didn't mean crème-de-la-crème in terms of artists - i meant in terms of songs - basically if i think i song has a massive, obvious flaw then no matter how much its other elements make up for it to the point that i can enjoy the thing, i don't feel i can vote for it in a ballot - save that for songs i feel don't have flaws. i love every moment and every aspect of every track on my ballot.

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

Okay, but my acknowledging that Jay's flow is weaker than it used to be doesn't make it a "massive, obvious flaw".

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

no i agree with lex, if you can't think of ten songs you love completely w/o reservations, why are you submitting a list? not only is jay not as good as he used to be, imo he's just not good. that's my position at least, and all i'm saying is that if you agree that jay's not any good, you really can't think of ten songs that don't have an awful performance on them? if you love the whole thing, more power to you.

xps

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

i'm so tired of arguing with people who insist that there's no audience for well-written non-indie (or specifically r&b) criticism, and that we should just follow the readers1 follow the readers! as though cultural commentators are unable to LEAD audiences, but deej otm

i mean shit, if there's no audience for well-written r&b criticism i guess i should just give up now, huh?

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't think Jay's performance is "awful" on that song though. I think it fits the song just fine, even if it isn't Reasonable Doubt level.

(xpost)

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

alright fair nuff, that's cool then

guardian nagle (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean, I can love a Bob Dylan song and still objectively admit his vocals are shit, right?

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean, there's BARELY an audience for well-written indie rock criticism

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that.

when combined with the overlap between the singles and album top tens, you could definitely make the case for an increase in indie solipsism. But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 20:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think the real test of how pernicious this indie strangehold would be whether it ignores some upswing in pop quality, not whether it dominates in a slow year

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

Whiney OTM. I don't think 90% of your average daily, non-crit Pitchfork visitor even reads the reviews. They come for the news updates and listen to the streaming tracks.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

you thinking The-Dream's 2nd album was a sophomore album doesn't make it an objective truth.

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year. Or wait, maybe "Like a Surgeon," too, since I seem to recall Singles Jukebox reviewing that and I probably gave it a cursory listen, but it didn't stick. Anyway, I have a huge soft spot for that kind of light disco-funk, with the Chic-like walking bassline (e.g., Omarion's "Entourage" or some of those Snoop Dogg/Neptunes collabs or even Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," which I also listed), so it was something I immediately liked. If you want to recommend more R&B songs with that same "generic" sound, I'd love to hear them.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

Quoting scottpl from above:

Maybe I'm wrong and there is some sort of place for discussion of this stuff, but I've seen us and RA and Stereogum and some other places thrive and/or get a foothold while the old VV, Blender, the thing CNET tried to start, Maura's Idolator, Stylus (which was about 5% less indie than p4k anyway) drift away and I feel like by now everyone complaining about that or missing them are people, say, posting in this thread.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Well, I get the idea that a lot of people who like The-Dream more than me (and like his second album more than you) do perceive that there was an upswing in pop quality in 2009. I actually think it was a decent year myself; I like Lady Gaga more than you. But right, like I said in the essay (the part with the "go out on a limb" aside you're keying in on), I don't expect most of my favorites to place anyway, in good years or bad years, since they haven't done so in a long time.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

the market for intelligent writing about anything seems to be rather small right now . . . and perhaps always has been?

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think it's better than love/hate

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

the market for intelligent writing about anything seems to be rather small right now . . . and perhaps always has been?

depends on a) how you define intelligent and b) what you mean by "anything"

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

market's the same small-but-vocal minority, but the ability to make money off it is IOYVFIY:IOUGEOU(G#R*)Y#)TG#()&Y#)*&T#)(&T#)*^T*FO*YF

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:06 PM (51 seconds ago)

love/hate is probably my favorite album of the decade but i love the new one too...besides guys like kellman and deej from what i can tell the consensus seems to be money > hate though

ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year

you could do worse than to check out "echo", which is incredible http://www.last.fm/music/Ciara/_/Echo

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

money and hate are on a similar level for me but undoubtedly money codes more "catnip to critics"

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp I never liked D'Angelo, Jill Scott, or Erykah Badu much either, tbh. Or Lauryn Hill, who did a lot better than Top 5 one year. Not a big neo-soul/alt-r&b/whatever fan in general. But I'm not really sure what me liking them, or you liking them, has to do with their P&J placement.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm sorry, but when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Carry on.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

TS: L/H vs. LM aside, we're talking about whether albums in the top 20 deserved to be in top 10, and what it says about the polling base that they weren't. We can either assume a) they didn't hear these undeniable efforts because they were too focused on their little world or b) they weren't undeniable. Even with my mild disappointment, I prefer Love Vs. Money to most of the top ten, but I don't think the case for A is that strong.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure I gave some other possible reasons in my essay, Anthony.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:59 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

hey bro maxwell was one of the best selling albums of the year & he was really not a 'minor cult' figure for R&B fans

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

well, I didn't vote for The-Dream (LVH was about my 17th favorite album of the year), I'm just saying it's disingenuous to refer to an artist's critical peak/breakthrough as a sophomore slump just because you happened to like the debut more.

xpost

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

love/hate is probably my favorite album of the decade but i love the new one too...besides guys like kellman and deej from what i can tell the consensus seems to be money > hate though

― ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:09 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest

nah the consensus is "woops we missed his first album"

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

hey bro maxwell was one of the best selling albums of the year & he was really not a 'minor cult' figure for R&B fans

non-indie artists who are not overtly commercial = minor cult figures
indie artists who are not overtly commercial = big deals who we should just expect to see dominate supposedly generalist discourse and lists

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

*pats self on back*

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

― The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:19 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol @ dn

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Ha ha, me too.

And yeah, pretty funny to bemoan "minor cult figures" while defending this particular Top 10.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't think i ever said maxwell was less important than girls or whomever (though yeah didn't realize his album was THAT big a seller, my bad), just that I wouldn't be sure his inability to beat them is neither a) shocking in the context of previous pazz'n'jops or b) cause for concern. He still did well.

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

maxwell probably sold more than anyone else above him in the list right?

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hey, did you guys know pop-bachata group Aventura starts a four-night headlining stand at MSG tonight?

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean, as long as we're talking about who's big vs. who's important...

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

i'm so tired of arguing with people who insist that there's no audience for well-written non-indie (or specifically r&b) criticism, and that we should just follow the readers1 follow the readers! as though cultural commentators are unable to LEAD audiences, but deej otm

those are two v different things. I think there is little evidence that the first half isn't correct though. Where are people reading longform music criticism in any sizable numbers? I mean, outside of things called "indie" in this thread? (I would say Okayplayer board probably, but I also think the general sensibilities and values of those boards are fairly "indie")

I def agree that people should not just follow the readers though, and I've think we've done that better than about anyone the second half of this decade. We've taken a staunchly indie audience and opened up a lot of doors for them, at risk to our reputation and therefore business. Not as many ppl choose to walk through those doors as I'd like but we keep trying.

But like I said upthread if you want people to read about R&B in any large numbers, I think your best bet is to turn music crit readers into R&B fans, not R&B fans into music crit readers. And if you disagree, plz circle back to the question above and let me know the names of the successful pop and R&B outlets doing what you'd like them to do, and how many readers they get. Considering you actually think our site, with its 2.5mm monthly readers and 1.5mm twitter followers, is merely "a niche website with a very specific demographic" I don't think you'll be able to locate an answer.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

<em>when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Ha ha, me too.</em>

And me!

<em>And yeah, pretty funny to bemoan "minor cult figures" while defending this particular Top 10.</em>

Not to rehash my Tumblr but:

<blockquote>cumulative scans (through 1/10): AnCo 148k; Phoenix 277k; Neko Case 180k; YYYs 201k; DPs 58k; Grizzly Bear 153k; The xx 66k; Raekwon 154k; Flaming Lips ??; Girls 27k.</blockquote>

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

(oh jeez, sorry about the html/bb mixup, ugh)

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

Maxwell's by far the biggest seller of the upper reaches of the list (until Jay-Z at #27)

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

i apologize for calling him a minor cult figure, now can we bitch about green day's sale-to-p'n'j-stature ratio, dudes barely made the top 40

da croupier, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

btw, sorry for being a dick there. I only feel comfortable being one to the lex since he's such an unrepentant one about us. btw he unironically posted the "a niche website with a very specific demographic" comment on the single jukebox.

p.s. lex: the #1 LP in america this week is vampire weekend

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

p.s. lex: the #1 LP in america this week is vampire weekend

The fuck.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

seriously

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

well done, vampire weekend up there with susan boyle and ke$ha now

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

Can't wait for "That's What Friends Are For '10"

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

Not sure why that should be surprising...?

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

Score one for the indie kids. In a rather amazing turn of events, Vampire Weekend — they of the piqued Polos, pan-ethnic pop stylings and proudly independent label — will snag the top spot on next week's Billboard albums chart. And the competition wasn't even close.

Contra, the band's second album, sold close to 124,000 copies in its first week to debut at #1, besting runner-up Susan Boyle's I Dreamed a Dream by nearly 50,000 albums. Released on XL Recordings, Contra is the first independent album to debut at #1 since Pearl Jam's Backspacer bowed at the top of the charts back in September (that album was released on the band's own Monkeywrench label but sold exclusively through mega-retailer Target, independent stores and online). Contra is also the highest indie-rock debut since both the Shins and the Arcade Fire released albums — Wincing the Night Away and Neon Bible — that opened at #2 back in 2007. It's the first #1 album in XL's 20-year history, not to mention the label's highest debut since Thom Yorke's The Eraser bowed at #2 in 2006.

velko, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

didn't you hear jaymc? indie is a little nothing that nobody cares about.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

Not that I agree with much of what Lex is posting here, but Scott, haven't you been expending a bunch of energy on this thread explaining the precise niche and specific demographics of your website?

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

P4k still regularly publishes many of the best music writers working today, and their news section and features are also consistently excellent. i used to read it almost exclusively, and even though over the past few years i've branched out to read other sites too, it's still one of my favorite things to read.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean, my line for a while now has been that most everything in pop music, broadly defined, is a niche, including the mainstream. It's a generalization, obviously, and clearly Lex is throwing a dagger there. But is that niche/specific thing altogether bad in Pfork's case? It's done very well by it. (xpost)

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

(i also wish blogs/more publications would follow P4k in (1) splitting up their RSS feeds into categories that make sense and (2) using sensible, non-bullshit headlines for their stories. makes things so much better for people using feed readers.)

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

Indie is a niche Matos, I agree. I think outside of very few artists, all of music is niche these days. But I don't think we are a website that just covers one niche for an audience that only wants one niche, which is what I think the Lex believes.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

p.s. lex: the #1 LP in america this week is vampire weekend
The fuck.

Clue: Their album was released the second week in January.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

(2) using sensible, non-bullshit headlines for their stories. makes things so much better for people using feed readers.)

seo optimization = death

(trust me on this. it doesn't take that much effort to skim the first line of a story!)

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah but xhuxk, just as a point of comparison, last year's no. 1 this week was taylor swift's 'fearless' -- it scanned 63k. breaking six figures in this era is a legit good showing.

(surely i'm not the only one who has seen the 'cousins' video on mtv hits? and thought it fit in well with the rest of that channel's manic-leaning playlist?)

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

Suggest Ban Permalink

p.s. lex: the #1 LP in america this week is vampire weekend
The fuck.

Clue: Their album was released the second week in January.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:54 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

i also maintain that while im sure these guys are pretty super-popular that sales dont actually represent popularity as a proportion in any meaningful way any more

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

God I miss when headlines were considered writing, too.

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

What does then -- ILM mentions?

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

nothing?

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

there is no good way to measure popularity right now, which is part of why critical coverage of genres like rap are so awful

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpFearless had been out how many weeks by then, though? At least two months (since November '08), right? I'm not scoffing at the VW numbers; just saying that their entering at #1 was pretty obviously going to happen, wasn't it? What other albums even came out last week?

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

Also that album was like $3.99 on iTunes, so come on fuckin guy

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't know, deej. Even in this climate a #1 record is a pretty accurate gauge!

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

...of people who buy albums. which includes ... no teenagers basically

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

do u remember how many CDs j0rdan sarg3nt owns

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

but maura, i'm not asking for TechCrunch-style, bland, link-baiting headlines, just ones that make sense! (back when you were running it, and i was reading it, i thought Idolator headlines were good.)

but shit like Tiny Mix Tapes headlines circa-2007 were borderline unreadable, sentence-long jokes that had little to do with the corresponding story, which itself often began with sentences of bullshit puff-text that had little to do with anything. as a reader, i want well-written, non-bullshit headlines, which doesn't equate to non-creative, SEO-bullshit ones.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

but albums aren't CD's anymore, as you admit!

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

From http://web.archive.org/web/20071214102355/http://www.tinymixtapes.com/

Sufjan Stevens Brings His State Odes To Japan and Australia For The First Time, And You and I Know That The Japanese and Australians Will Probably Relate More To The Songs Than Us Because They Know More About American History. Admit It.

Americans are narrow-minded sonsabitches. We’ve been proven scientifically to be the most racist and sexist humans in the history of human civilization. But you know what? We’re god damn proud of it! Simply put: we’re better than everybody who doesn’t hang our red, white, and blue flag — it’s in our DNA. Fuck with us, we’ll fuck with you. Don’t fuck with us, we’ll still fuck with you. We’re mighty proud of being assholes and even prouder of havin’ lower scores in arithmetic than pretty much the whole world.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

^ bad headline, bad lead-in

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

i agree with ksh, but gotta admit that this cracked me up today

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

but albums aren't CD's anymore, as you admit!

― Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:05 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

itunes sales are a minuscule fraction of the amount of music traded online

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Also that album was like $3.99 on iTunes, so come on fuckin guy

but chris, I thought the charts mattered because that was our shared culture and that's why critics have a responsibility to engage with pop and what audiences are buying? That was the crux of your twitter talk. I see it doesn't always apply ;)

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Who reads TMT as an up-to-the-minute news source though?

David Katz (davek_00), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

i did in 2005 i think. even as a non-timely news source tho, it was useless back then. looks better now, although i don't read their site regularly

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

nabisco has an insanely long blog post about (after skimming it v.briefly, what seems like) this kind of stuff up on his tumblr today btw. haven't read it yet, but will definitely do so later.

kshighway (ksh), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

haven't read it but i bet it's otm

Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

Weren't the album charts historically imperfect reflections of what was "really" popular? What with the buyer-reported sales and all? Does no one remember the sea change that occurred during the first week of the SoundScan era?

I mean, I'm not saying that sales as they're measured now aren't an accurate reflection of *something* -- and honestly I do think that the hothouse provided by the Internet makes many a phenomenon seem more important on a grander scale than it actually might be -- but I don't think the Billboard 200 is sacrosanct at all, and I wasn't posting the SS numbers above to claim such. Just trying to point out that, even though they're in the vernacular in these parts and in other Pitchfork-fluent corners of the Internet, probably not everyone out there knows who Girls are!

maura, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

i just mean that plies is probably still a bigger name to most of america than vampire weekend even if hes never had a #1 album

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

haven't read it but i bet it's otm

It is.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

probably not everyone out there knows who Girls are!

In more contexts than one.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

i just mean that plies is probably still a bigger name to most of america than vampire weekend even if hes never had a #1 album

I don't know about that, I mean Vampire Weekend has gotten tons of hype in NYT profiles and other outlets that non-music fans are more likely to be exposed to.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

nabisco hasnt really made a point yet though, just set up the framework for 'part 2'

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

when people start talking about "most of america" i think of my sister, who's just a little younger than me and likes bruce springsteen and green day (and also plays fiddle and listens to a lot of old-time music), and who i just this christmas introduced to an obscure artist she had never heard of: taylor swift.

"most of america" doesn't belong in this conversation at all.

(btw my sister is now a big taylor fan and her 11-yr-old son is mad at me about it.)

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think this is a point, even if he's made it before recently:

What’s always interesting to me w/r/t critics and “indie” is that many people seem to think of middlebrow music criticism as automatically occupying the sphere of privilege and dominance — like the U.S., in this analogy — even though its readership and importance in the wider world of music is really more comparable to that impoverished African nation and its quaint local sport. And they often do this because — even as they lambaste criticism for privileging “collegiate” or middlebrow types of music — they themselves privilege “collegiate” and middlebrow ways of talking about music; the way critics talk is closer to them, more comfortably in their vicinity, than the ways many people talk about many other kinds of music. Which is fine, and not hypocritical at all, though I do wish it were acknowledged more.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

(xpost to deej)

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

Do Tim Finney's ocassional reviews of R'n'b on Pitchfork get less internet hits?

Pretty sure this is the case! The only emails I ever get about my R&B reviews (and I rarely get any) are from trolls wondering why it's being favourably covered in the first place.

The fact that this is probably the case and yet Pitchfork still publish me reflects well on Pitchfork (w/r/t its interest in covering non-indie-rock at any rate) rather than the reverse.

The absence of a "critical community" for R&B is not some new problem by the way. Scott is right to say imply that the big difference this year was a the lack of a critico-commercial nexus that traditionally pushed big Neptunes productions or Missy Elliot albums so high. And yeah I think the difficulty in identifying what is popular is part of that.

Deej's point about the relationship b/w sales and popularity is important in another way: the more "niche" something is (i.e. the more central to the taste of a niche fanbase) the more likely that a significant proportion of its actual consumption will be done for free - not just in the typical sense of illegal downloads, but also specialist radio shows and mixes, which appear online with pristine sound quality and in a vast and regular profusion in a way that simply wasn't true even a couple of years ago.

What this means is that the remaining audience(s) for actually purchasing music tends to be the crossover audience(s), who still depend on the traditional top 40 radio / video clip / stories in broadsheet papers / physical CD or iTunes download process for identifying the pop music they like. This audience will go for Ke$ha and Lady Gaga and BEP and even Vampire Weekend, all of whom are not only populist but receive a level of mainstream non-"critic" journalistic coverage in a way that, say, The-Dream, just... doesn't (in part because of their sales - the cycle is self-perpetuating obv).

The traditional nexus whereby niche fans purchased something such that it gained enough critical and commercial prominence to then crossover to a broader audience is, if not broken, then a lot weaker than it used to be. Why would niche fans go out and buy e.g. a Gucci album when they already have five mixtapes, and probably downloaded his "official" album for free anyway?

This, I think, has been even more deadly for dance music sub-genres than for others. I've stopped expecting a UK Funky track to actually chart prominently in the UK because - unlike in the case of its obvious predecessor UK Garage - much of the core audience who might care enough to gain any potential hit or foothold in popular consciousness probably don't need to buy it: if they haven't already downloaded an illegal copy they probably have it on an internet DJ mix or radio set and that's sufficient for their purposes.

The upshot of all of this is that I think the current dominance of these more marginal/liminal pop figures who exist on the borders between genres (Gaga, BEP, increasingly Taylor Swift) is here to stay, at least until something changes in patterns of music consumption.

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

i just mean that plies is probably still a bigger name to most of america than vampire weekend even if hes never had a #1 album

possibly. But to the music writing-reading population of the U.S I imagine it's no freaking contest.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

no question. but i think its important when writing to have a sense of perspective that way, and acting as if indie is the most popular kind of music out there, as if this justifies its critical dominance, rather than recognizing that these are independent variables, is wrong imo

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

of course, but I don't think anyone thinks indie is the most popular music out there! I'm obviously teasing Chris upthread. VW is one thing but it's not like the #1 (or even #200) LP next week is going to be Surfer Blood.

scottpl, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

*doodlydoodlydoodly*

"SURFER BLOOD TOPS CHARTS; 'We Owe It All To That One Meme.'"

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp yah i mean i have other issues w/r/t people not recognizing sales which we've talked about before -- i think that purely from a journalistic standpoint ppl dont have a very good grasp on how popular things are & what the shape of pop music really is, and that this affects the way they talk about music & how music outside their comfort zone is treated -- its easy to marginalize music that doesnt claim the center if its outside of the genres you usually pay attention to.

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't know who GIRLS are!

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think that purely from a journalistic standpoint ppl dont have a very good grasp on how popular things are & what the shape of pop music really is

Need it be purely from a journalistic standpoint? It's hard to conceive of any true definitive statement from anyone from a creator to a consumer, it's more a constantly shifting battle of claims.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

it also effects the rhetoric people use around music's "importance" -- [x] is the first album to do [y] -- in a way that can be very misleading. the example that used to drive folks nuts in hiphop was how a lot of writers saw clipse as the creators of 'crack rap,' -- it would have been fine if the writing was covering the critical phenomenon of covering rap about crack but instead it was ostensibly about the music itself, which ignored that rapping about crack had never gone away, and in fact had a much more popular & significant incarnation in no limit & master p's "ghetto d," which was certainly a much larger influence on rap as a whole.

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think it's a really important part of being a cultural commentator, especially now when consumers and fans can retreat easily and comfortably into their own tastes to the exclusion of everything else, to cover as wide a range as possible of other experiences and perspectives

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

influence & importance are not always reflected by critical recognition, or are in certain ways but not others, but this is not recognized & leads to very misleading rhetoric around music

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think it's a really important part of being a cultural commentator, especially now when consumers and fans can retreat easily and comfortably into their own tastes to the exclusion of everything else, to cover as wide a range as possible of other experiences and perspectives

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:44 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont agree with this. isnt this exactly what the whole frankendance bmore/baile/disco/crunk gross club scene is based in?

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

"All these ways we classify things as r&b and hip-hop and rock . . . It's bullshit," he recently told Elvis Mitchell in Interview. "It's all music. If you put yourself in that box, then you won't be able to hear that it's all music at its soul. When people say stuff like, 'Oh, that's soft rock. I don't listen to that,' I find that elitist. It's music-racist." Just another made-up tag to avoid.

Jay Z OTM

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

commentators should do it, artists mostly shouldn't!

xp

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

"think it's a really important part of being a cultural commentator, especially now when consumers and fans can retreat easily and comfortably into their own tastes to the exclusion of everything else, to cover as wide a range as possible of other experiences and perspectives"

how'd the new slayer album grab you?

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think thats totally wrong lex, but more to the point, impossible

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

Scott, why didn't you vote for Kid Sister????

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

other people had heard of that one

ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

saw kid sister @ my fav bar monday night
she was rapping along to "back in the day" by ahmad

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

i guess it didn't turn out to be one of my ten favorite albums of the year. i liked it a lot though. watson twins album will definitely be on my next ballot. for next year. i think some people have heard of them.

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean, i definitely thought of the kid sister album when i chose what i chose. but i heard SO much amazing stuff this year. it was hard to pick ten.

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

but...but...but...

KId Sister - Ultraviolet - Album Of The Year?

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think thats totally wrong lex, but more to the point, impossible

i meant more w/r/t editorial policy than individual critics, and if we could stop turning everything i say into a referendum on me, that would be nice

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

allmusic guide is the place for u imo

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

i chose that thread title, chuck, cuz i wanted people to listen to the album. it's like a newspaper headline.

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 22:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm a bit confused as to how well known the-dream is. I know he's produced some major songs and artists but outside of ILM and a few other places I never hear of (or from) him. Is he played much on MTV or BET?

Cunga, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

he's pretty popular, if not superstar-level -- most of his solo singles have been in the top 5 of the R&B chart, both of his albums have gone gold, a lot of rappers have gotten him to appear on their singles in the past couple years.

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

and he's on MTV and BET pretty frequently

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

look at the (insane) conclusion being drawn here:
http://www.byroncrawford.com/2010/01/the-top-10-rap-albums-of-2009-according-to-the-top-697-music-critics.html

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

thanks for the info. xpost

Cunga, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

"All these ways we classify things as r&b and hip-hop and rock . . . It's bullshit," he recently told Elvis Mitchell in Interview. "It's all music. If you put yourself in that box, then you won't be able to hear that it's all music at its soul. When people say stuff like, 'Oh, that's soft rock. I don't listen to that,' I find that elitist. It's music-racist." Just another made-up tag to avoid.

He would (have) enjoy(ed) shopping at a record store with no genre/style distinctions, everything A-Z, then?

Andy K, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

hey, what conclusion can we draw from a list that tells us that 2 of the 3 'best' rap albums of 2009 are sequels to undeniably superior albums from 1995 and 2001, other than that it's the god's honest truth?

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

He would (have) enjoy(ed) shopping at a record store with no genre/style distinctions, everything A-Z, then?

Sometimes I think I would! There's a local store around me that has an "indie" section and a "rock" section and is incredibly lazy and inconsistent about filing things, so you constantly have to hop back and forth to see if they have something particular.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

I've said it before: on this issue you can never trust aging stars losing popularity/status within their "scene" and aiming at commercial crossover to make up (or even exceed) the difference. Jay-Z's comment blatantly means, "hey rock fans, I like you and Chris Martin, and Chris Martin likes me, logically therefore you should too!"

Tim F, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Most $1 vinyl bins I shop in not only don't divide stuff by genres, they're not even alphabetical! And that makes them more fun.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

The people who say Jay-Z's next album will be the indie-rock equivalent of his collaboration with Linkin Park seem less crazy by the week.

Cunga, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

logically arranged $1 vinyl bins are $1 vinyl bins that tend to suck for some reason

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

Dollar bins -- yes, those are fun. What if a place like Amoeba did it with their regular stock, though?

Andy K, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

i like the idea. but i'm an omnivore.

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

Who buys regular stock? (Well, some people I guess.)

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

i'm gonna start a rumours section in my store. nothing but nice copies of rumours. and a roxanne section. i've got about 12 roxanne answer records. just waiting to get a few more.

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

Honestly, the more I think about it, I would love it. At least for browsing purposes. I like music from more than one genre, so I could flip through and find anything I liked rather than bouncing form this section to that section and back. And, if the alphabetical order was strictly and consistently maintained, it still wouldn't be hard to find a specific item - you just might need to flip a bit longer.

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

roxanne section. i've got about 12 roxanne answer records. just waiting to get a few more.

Send me some, scott!

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

logically arranged $1 vinyl bins are $1 vinyl bins that tend to suck for some reason

Because everything good has already been ferreted out.

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

(Way off topic, but the compilation I want to hear more than anything, damn near, is "The Complete Roxanne Chronicles.")

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

i've got roxanne's doctor, parents, boyfriend, brothers, sister, um, there are a lot.

scott seward, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

well yeah but i mean even accounting for that they suck more imo. maybe it's just that $1 bins are supposed to be a total mess and trying to organize them ruins the fun. amoeba just throws a few thousand records into a pile and lets the hermits sort them out.

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think the hap-hazard bins scare away lots of people, though. So they haven't been sorted through nearly as much.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

amoeba just throws a few thousand records into a pile and lets the hermits sort them out.

;_;

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

OTOH I just realized that Antone's $1 bin here is sort of alphabetical (maybe 75% of it anyway), and Breakaway is vaguely alphabetical (divided by letters), with the r&b, jazz, folk, country, etc, separated from the "rock." And I always find tons of stuff at both places. So maybe my theory is wrong.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 23:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

He would (have) enjoy(ed) shopping at a record store with no genre/style distinctions, everything A-Z, then?

HI DERE

I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

"Gucci's skills include a somnambulant flow, an intoxicating enthusiasm for vocabulary, and an adenoidal taste in beats from the South's best producers."

I thought I knew what the word adenoid meant, but I don't understand what it means in the context of the sentence. Can someone explain?

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what Fennessey's getting at there...

rennavate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ease off, he's just got an intoxicating enthusiasm for vocabulary.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

ilxor, did you see one of nabsico's Tumblr posts from earlier? you were quoted.

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

an enthusiasm for vocabulary without a strong command of it doesn't count for much, imo.

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ease off, he's just got an intoxicating enthusiasm for vocabulary.

would this not involve knowing what words mean?

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

that's the intoxication part

The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ease off, he's just got an intoxicating enthusiasm for vocabulary http://www.thesaurus.com

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Exactly.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

It makes his writing vibrant and different and fun.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

he's the canibus of rock critics!

prosthetic hard ass (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's true, his verbal acrobatics are consistently on display

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

he kicked me in the groin and stuck me for my vanguard award :(

prosthetic hard ass (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

he said i started it

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 01:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

It makes his writing vibrant and different and fun.

― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:25 PM Bookmark

A+

The Reverend, Thursday, 21 January 2010 04:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

dont mock him for knowing the word "adenoid"

max, Thursday, 21 January 2010 04:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

call him cultured

max, Thursday, 21 January 2010 04:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 04:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ya know, I seriously thought maybe there was a definition or reference or something I just wasn't picking up. I even looked it up in my dictionary just to make sure.

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 04:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean, we've all done it.

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 05:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

I got curious about the combo of the "name the bands formed after 1989 that are both critically lauded and not indie" thing up there and the notion that all of a sudden these lists are way more indie

by my count, these are the only rock records to place in the top p&j top 40 that weren't a) loosely indie-friendly ("covered by pitchfork" was the easiest and quickest way I could skim that)* or b) made by baby boomers:

2002: none
2003: none
2004: none
2005: SOAD
2006: MCR
2007: Against Me!
2008: none
2009: none

* and as said before, extending this definition to all genres nearly absorbs all of the past four or five years' worth of lists under the banner of "indie-friendly" regardless of genre. Indie audiences and writers for what is derided as "indie" sites are listening to and forming consensus around the same metal and r&b and pop and hip-hop records getting voted into these lists.

Another example: A bit more than 10 years ago, when RS made its 90s list, it split the choices into categories-- alternative, rock, hiphop/r&b, dance/pop, with slight nods to box sets, blues, world, country (http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/rstone.html#Recordings%20of%20the%20‘90s) (I would guess this was a balls-less move to avoided confronting their audience with the idea that the rock records weren't necessarily the best ones). Ten years later and their decade list is ranked, the slight nods are slighter, and it's basically the same as the last decade except without the rock. (http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/rs200.html#00_09decade) "Rock" was relegated to basically a handful of boomer records. On the RS list. SOAD is the only the non-boomer, non-indie guitar record there.

I just don't understand how this is still a surprise to people.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 05:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

* and as said before, extending this definition to all genres nearly absorbs all of the past four or five years' worth of lists under the banner of "indie-friendly" regardless of genre. Indie audiences and writers for what is derided as "indie" sites are listening to and forming consensus around the same metal and r&b and pop and hip-hop records getting voted into these lists.

fair point buuuut i'd imagine this has more to do with you diversifying your staff (ie hiring the finneys and drakes etc of the world) rather than the same people canonizing GADPY all agreeing on electrik red and gucci

ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 05:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think this argument is really about, "C'mon, Animal Collective? Really? They're kinda mediocre, aren't they?"

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 05:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

sure but electrik red and gucci* aren't the consensus picks on pazz and jop any more than they are on pitchork. in fact, hell, both of those records placed higher on the p4k poll than on the p&j one, we just didn't print full results. 40% of the burrprint voters in p&j are on our staff currently; and three of the nine p&j ER voters have logged decent time as p4k writers.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Scott, I don't know if this is true, but I'd like to believe people are just annoyed Animal Collective, Dirty Projects, Phoenix, etc emerged as the consensus best album of the year, and the most obvious people to blame for that consensus forming is p4k.

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's like; look, top 10 in p4k and in J+P look almost exactly the same but p4k came out first. I wonder if they're to blame. But then you're like, "Yeah, but we cover other stuff." But that's not addressing people's thing at all really. Because lol you didn't put Gucci at #1, did you?

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

I guess the question then becomes "but for Pitchfork, would P&J this year look any different??"

I'm leaning to "no" - Pitchfork has played a big role w/r/t the development of what you might call the mainstream-indie-sensibility, but I don't think that it wouldn't have happened anyway had the website not existed.

Tim F, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

mordy i don't think anyone was genuinely complaining about pitchfork, more p4k's consensus influence and every other writer biting their taste

ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

Well, yeah. But people were also complaining that the consequence of letting all the p4k writers vote is that the P+J poll looks like the p4k poll.

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think you guys are putting the cart before the horse here

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

animal collective was entertainment weekly's album of the year. we should maybe be decrying the EW halo effect...

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean these albums were gonna be popular even if Pitchfork dropped off the face of the earth in December 2008

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

Everyone made their mind up about Animal Collective like WEEKS before pfork ran their review, Pfork REFLECTS a current critical mood more than it SHAPES it

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

Can I just say: I listened to Phoenix a bunch and I totally didn't get the big deal. And I've read all this critical stuff about the album and I still have no idea why people like it. Unrelated, but I wanted to say this somewhere. I don't hate the album, but I really do not get the big deal at all.

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'd credit the "pitchfork effect" for helping blowing up something stupid like "The Drums" but there's no way I'm gonna credit them for critics liking the Yeah Yeah Yeahs for the fifth year running or making heroes of bands like Girls who were tearing up Hype Machine for like ever

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

i heard their single for the first time today and I had the same reaction

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

(Not trying to bait an explanation either. I'm really trying to say that when I look at a poll that puts Phoenix in the top 5 slot I assume that it's not going to be totally congruent with my tastes. And I'm okay with that. If it was my poll Neko Case would be #1 and that would be totally weird, right?)

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

Everyone made their mind up about Animal Collective like WEEKS before pfork ran their review, Pfork REFLECTS a current critical mood more than it SHAPES it

yeah really the main thing that bugs me (apart from the animal collective album itself, which definitely bugs me) is that mpp was seemingly declared ALBUM OF 2009 sometime in late 2008 and it was like "ok that's settled" and we went through a whole year of fairly interesting music and still at the end of the year the consensus somehow held. which maybe wouldn't bother me if i liked the record, i concede that, and i don't doubt that other people really like the record as much as they say they do. but it all just felt sort of weirdly pro forma to me.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

and i'm already afraid that contra is going to do the same thing this year. can't we at least wait til february to declare a winner?

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

At this point I'm just taking people at face value. A lot of people really really really like Animal Collective. I don't hear it, but there are people who don't like Dylan. So anywayz, not losing sleep over it. Scott, do you really dig AnCo?

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

tipsy, I'd be really shocked if Contra became the de facto best album of the year. It doesn't sound like that kind of album to me. I happen to really love it, but I can't imagine it has that same kind of consensus.

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm looking at the 1971 P+J poll and I wasn't alive at the time but I'd probably be a little annoyed at Blue coming in at 9 when it's clearly the best album of all time and who has even heard of this Joy of Cooking indie album? (nb I don't know what kind of music Joy of Cooking is. I think it's a cookbook?)

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

sure but electrik red and gucci* aren't the consensus picks on pazz and jop any more than they are on pitchork. in fact, hell, both of those records placed higher on the p4k poll than on the p&j one, we just didn't print full results. 40% of the burrprint voters in p&j are on our staff currently; and three of the nine p&j ER voters have logged decent time as p4k writers.

― scottpl, Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:07 AM (7 minutes ago)

right i'm just saying, (and this is in general b/c i know ewing likes YYYs, deej like girls, tim likes anco etc,) you're making it seem like the whole staff is all over the map when i'd guess (maybe wrongly) that you've got a lot of dudes voting GADPY and a smaller number of (different) writers forming the consensus for the r&b and rap albums while also throwing some GADPY votes to strengthen consensus. not that this is necessarily awful

you didnt post individual lists this year so i'm basically talking outta my ass here i realize

ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean these albums were gonna be popular even if Pitchfork dropped off the face of the earth in December 2008

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:21 AM (14 minutes ago)

december 2008, sure. december 1997? maybe not

ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

(nb I don't know what kind of music Joy of Cooking is. I think it's a cookbook?)

Bless you. (They were a Bay Area folk-rock combo led by two women.)

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

a serious discussion of the relative merits of GAPDY has broken out in that poll Whiney started

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

Everyone made their mind up about Animal Collective like WEEKS before pfork ran their review, Pfork REFLECTS a current critical mood more than it SHAPES it

the LP leaked on XMAS and we ran our review 12 days later on Jan 5, our first day back from break. So, no, that didn't happen.

And the Drums thing was a readers poll result, not something we've talked a lot about. We reviewed one song.

I don't even know what to say to crediting "the hype machine" for something. Nobody cares. It's an aggregator of blogs with mostly a fraction of the readership of us (or Stereogum or Fader). Their cumulative top songs of the year are full of things most people don't know exist (http://hypem.com/zeitgeist/2009/songs), whereas, again, 30 of the top 34 p&j songs also made our year-end list.

other than that, I agree with your facts and conclusions ;)

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

do you think P&J would look any different if PF waited to post it's albums/singles lists until the day after the P&J deadline, though?

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

re: Girls. Hellhole Ratrace was in our 2008 year-end list and we booked them for Primavera and SXSW this time last year. This is a meaningless argument over flag-planting but at the very least I will defend the false accusation that we're following people. Just because we don't have the luxury to post whateverthefuck, say nothing about it, have everyone forget you posted it, and then point to it months later and say "see, see, I posted it early!" if it's advantageous to do so doesn't mean we are hanging around looking over other people's shoulders. People remember what we say and we give things due diligence, and as a consequence we sacrifice speed at times.

But, still, having the belief the that some blog is more responsible for spreading news about a band than us probably means you like in Brooklyn or somewhere else where you're surrounded by this sort of inside baseball shit all the time. Even a "big" blog like gvsb, well we'll have more readers from midnight to the time I clock in for work tomorrow than he'll have all month. I think you underestimate how much bigger we are than these sites.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

Wait, so you are taking responsibility for P+J looking a ton like p4k?

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 06:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

Genuine LOL

Tim F, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

haha i was about to go for a different Sorkin soliloquy:

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

?!

All I said to Chris was that it's possible the publication with by far the second-biggest readership in the country had more effect on people than the kid down his block who runs a blog.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

the few good men thing is a genuine lol tho ha

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

so which one are you beating, time or newsweek

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

Anyways if I had voted in P&J there would have been one more vote for AnCo - it's no #4 for me (when Dan says "biggest case of Emperor's New Clothes since The Avalanches" I think "get me that designer's number"). I don't think it's being defensive for me to say that this is less about whether or not critics like Anco and more about whether and why critics like or don't like the other stuff we think should be at or near the top of the list.

If Pitchfork either shapes or reflects the consensus (it doesn't matter for the purposes of what I'm about to say), and Pitchfork is in fact gfetting behind artists like Gucci Mane or Electrik Red (in terms of very positive reviews at least), why are hardly any other critics agreeing? Every person who voted for Burrprint: 3D is an ILM regular except for Tom Breihan, who's a Pitchfork writer! Same story for Electrik Red (replace tom with Julianne Shepherd).

Now admittedly the reviews for those albums appeared in Pitchfork in January and December respectively, i.e. they weren't gonna impact on voting habits. But it strikes me that to the extent that ILM might complain about the tastes of other critics, Pitchfork is ahead of any non-ILM critics anywhere...

(see also: Deej and Lex were the only two people to vote for "Inflation" despite it being the best song of the year)

Tim F, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

so, to back up: No I don't think our year-end lists specifically do shit for P&J. Any effect, which is totally impossible to quantify (so no there is no credit involved!), would come from our reviews throughout the year and the rather easy way we present our bnm. It's quite simple to drop in and see what we've been most enthusiastic about. It's not simple to do that with nearly any other pub of any size.

But it's impossible to determine how much effect this or that thing has on the larger critical culture. Even w/AnCo, despite getting our best review in five years, I'm sure we had *zero* effect. We def had no effect on Uncut, since Stevie T, who wrote that review, heard the LP before I did and filed his review before ours. That's the one real-world example I can give either way.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

oops, I meant to say: Even w/AnCo, despite getting our best review in five years, I'm sure we had *zero* effect in some cases. I'm sure we did have some effect, but to "take credit" for it all is silly.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

so which one are you beating, time or newsweek

ha, *music* publication.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

I didn't mean it as an inquisition. I was just confused. Scott sounded like he was downplaying the influence p4k has on music critics and music consensus and then started talking about how p4k was the most important music blog on the interwebz. I thought he was saying something different. I'm not trying to score any points here :P

Mordy, Thursday, 21 January 2010 07:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

ya i think all it is is that pitchfork is really dependable if you like that sort of thing, and so most critics who voted in pazz and jop's ballots were probably just a dozen or so albums that were best new music at some point this year shuffled about. it's easy to be lazy, and as we've seen from every other year-end list, there isn't really another big voice that's saying anything different. pitchfork are just victims of their own success.

samosa gibreel, Thursday, 21 January 2010 08:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think a publication with a similarly wide scope, but significantly different tastes would be v welcome and nice in 2010.

samosa gibreel, Thursday, 21 January 2010 08:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think what finally made "New York State of Mind" finally click with me was hearing it in a bunch of different settings, it just sounded huge and anthemic - a quality that seems to have been missing from hip-hop for a while now (cue the autogoon crew popping up with dozens of refs to "anthemic" Gucci mixtape moments). I liked how bold and brash it sounded, that's all. Wasn't my single of the year, in fact it wasn't even top five. It just had a quality that a lot of other rap singles have been missing. I mean, all you guys complaining about swag, this isn't Jay's young man swag, this is "fuck you, I run this city" swag.

― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:43 AM (5 hours ago)

Sorry for coming back to this, but didn't he do that a billion times better on The Blueprint? ESoM doesn't even have the "fuck you" to accompany the running of the city.

when I met you last night, baby, before you opened up your GAPDY (The Reverend), Thursday, 21 January 2010 09:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

So okay, just to make sure I understand the logic emerging on this thread, here's what I've got so far:

1) All current music is indie rock -- well, 99 percent of the good stuff anyway, at least when it involves white guys in guitar bands -- so using the category when analyzing which music scores better than other music in critics' polls is a fool's game.

2) Pitchfork covers all kinds of music all the time, so no matter how indie-rock biased, say, the site's Top 10 or 50 albums at the end of every year might seem to you, you're deluded if you associate the site with that particular genre.

3) Any sudden drastic increase (even doubling) in the overlap between records finishing near the top of the Pazz & Jop poll and those finishing near the top of the Pitchfork poll, even when said increase affects the P&J singles list as much as the albums list in entirely unprecedented ways, is mere coincidence. Commonality doesn't imply causality, of course, and the similarities merely reflect something in the air. The results would be exactly the same if Pitchfork had stopped existing a long time ago.

Let me know if I'm missing anything, or if I have anything wrong. But I'm pretty sure I'm getting there now; thanks!

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 09:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

^^that ether

when I met you last night, baby, before you opened up your GAPDY (The Reverend), Thursday, 21 January 2010 09:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

Chuck, I kinda overstated my disagreement with your article - you've definitely made the case for this year potentially being a noteworthy one re: indie placing. Point 1 isn't so much that acknowledging it is a "fool's game," but that indie doesn't have nearly as rigid a definition now, and it's hard to find young critically successful rock artists that don't fall under the envelope (and the flaming lips aren't even young!). As pre-indie Pazz'n'Jop perennials get older/make fewer "clasics," you're going to see an influx of "indie" from that unless there's a sea change in what passes for critically acclaimed rock.

And as for 3, it's not necessarily a mere coincidence, but 5 of the 2008 p'n'j top tenners made Pitchfork's top 10. And of the five p'n'j placers that aren't - Erykah Badu and Lil Wayne made their top 20, leaving Bon Iver (who they actually bother to note would have placed if it hadn't already appeared on their 2007 list), Kanye and Santogold (both pretty pitchfork friendly). Only four of Pitchfork's top 10 for 2007 are in the pazz'n'jops, but kanye and the national made their top 20, leaving Amy Winehouse, bruce springsteen and robert plant, who made big classy hit albums that resonated with older fans - something we didn't see much of this year. Pitchfork and Pazz'n'Jops tastes were headed for this kind of alignment, and I'm not sold that the top 20 rather than top 10 placement of The-Dream and Maxwell signifies a new-new wave hegemony.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 13:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

Not disputing Chuck's arguments but I still think this year was about a lack of consensus w/r/t wutz good in non-indie land more than anything else. Not saying this "lack of consensus" isn't itself erm politically charged (e.g. the "lack of consensus" re R&B being at least in part because most critics don't bother to check out R&B unless it's shoved under their noses) of course.

The sort of the pop hits that have done really well in P&J polls in the last five years or so have usually also done really well in Pitchfork polls as well.

Tim F, Thursday, 21 January 2010 13:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

And while I certainly find Pitchfork'n'Jops the-best-singles-are-the-best-songs-from-our-favorite-albums synergy at the very least boring, your main theory for why it happened makes me pause: Lazy indie voters turning a fun exercise into a dutiful one by listing random "singles" off albums they also voted for are the new version of lazy AOR voters who used to vote for perfunctory tracks off albums they also voted for. Only the genre and technology have changed, and the fact that the AOR squares—back before our newfangled, allegedly singles-oriented, iTunes-through-shitty-speakers era began—almost always got marginalized by radio-imbibing pop and dance and hip-hop fans. Though, hey, at least critics still fell for Lady Gaga this year.

Are you saying picking your favorite songs from your favorite albums is "dutiful" rather than "fun"? Wouldn't it be just as "dutiful" for them to deny themselves the chance to praise their favorite act twice in the name of True Single-hood? I feel like your decades-long contempt for indie rock fans in general cuts into your valid obsveration about what happened this year. Whether or not you like them, they're here. And whether or not they throw some token non-indie acts on their ballot in a slow year for non-indie - making the top ten look less creamcheese - they've been here for a long time.

xpost to Tim

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 13:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

Again, I'd be even more comfortable if said voters' favorite singles came from different indie bands than their favorite albums. As is, compared to 30 previous years of singles voting, by critics supporting all genres (indie rock included, which I've been known to sometimes vote for myself), the overlap really does look pathetic to me. (Then again, that admittedly might have something to do with my decades-long contempt for critics too lazy to find favorite singles that aren't on their favorite albums. Such as the AOR folks I talked about there.)

5 of the 2008 p'n'j top tenners made Pitchfork's top 10

Actually four, by my count (same as 2007, 2006, and 2005, unless I missing something somewhere, and -- again -- half as many as 2009):

1. TV on the Radio (#6 Pitchfork)
2. Vampire Weekend (#7)
3. Portishead (#2)
4. Fleet Foxes (#1)

but not

5. Erykah Badu (#13)
6. Lil Wayne (#11)
7. Santogold (#22)
8. Bon Iver (#29 in 2007)
9. Nick Cave (#32)
10. Kayne West (#21)

For what it's worth, the 2007 P&J top 10, by my count, had three albums (Plant, Winehouse, and Bruce) that didn't even hit the Pitchfork Top 40; 2006 P&J Top 10 had four (Gnarls Barkley, Arctic Monkeys, Neko Case, Tom Waits); 2005 had three (Fiona Apple, White Stripes, My Morning Jacket); 2004 had four (Loretta Lynn, Green Day, U2, Danger Mouse.) So 2008 was a big change in a more Pitchforky direction in itself, in way, already. 2009 just extended the simialirites more.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

is it possible that this just has to do with no one being clear on what a single is anymore

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/albums/2008/

the pazz i'm looking at has deerhunter (a pitchfork pick) at #10 and nick cave at #11

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

xhuxk, it kind of seems like you want the favorite tracks to come from different bands than favorite albums for very personal reasons. I'm not sure it really indicates anything other than, after years of being limited to "singles", voters have moved away from that criteria completely. It didn't happen overnight whatever year all tracks became eligible. These days, most peoples albums are made up of songs they like a lot, and I don't think they feel any obligation to honor P&J's history by separating the albums from the singles.

Mark, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

For what it's worth, the 2007 P&J top 10, by my count, had three albums (Plant, Winehouse, and Bruce) that didn't even hit the Pitchfork Top 40; 2006 P&J Top 10 had four (Gnarls Barkley, Arctic Monkeys, Neko Case, Tom Waits); 2005 had three (Fiona Apple, White Stripes, My Morning Jacket); 2004 had four (Loretta Lynn, Green Day, U2, Danger Mouse.) So 2008 was a big change in a more Pitchforky direction in itself, in way, already. 2009 just extended the simialirites more.

This is interesting, as it seems the likely top tenner albums from years past that got slighted this year weren't the-dream/maxwell straight-r&b albums, but boomer novelties, BIG rock bands and All Things Dangermouse.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure people's favorite albums have always been made up of songs they like a lot. But I do agree the blurring definition of the single has something to do with this. But that definition has been blurring for at least a decade now; it doesn't explain the gigantic leap this year to seven top 10 singles (all "indie"-ish) from Top 10 albums.

xp Weird. The one I printed out from the site just a couple weeks ago had Cave #9 (687 votes, 61 mentions); Kanye #10 (603, 57); Deerhunter #11 (585, 55). Guess that's a question for the Voice tech folks.

same as 2007, 2006, and 2005

And 2004, oops.

And it's hard to imagine a more creamcheesey singles Top 10 than the one we got, to my eyes.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

Can I just say: I listened to Phoenix a bunch and I totally didn't get the big deal. And I've read all this critical stuff about the album and I still have no idea why people like it. Unrelated, but I wanted to say this somewhere. I don't hate the album, but I really do not get the big deal at all.
― Mordy, Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:23 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

mordy, this is scottpl's perfectly sensible explanation from another thread:

This Phoenix record was a bigger deal than the others because it was the first one released into an environment in which most indie listeners and sites/blogs "agreed" that Phoenix were a relatively big deal. Like a 2009 example of why Elephant was a major release the week it came out but White Blood Cells wasn't.

The band had pulled in fans from different spheres over the course of the decade, released records that were mostly slow burns but eventually beloved to some extent (esp the one prior to WAP w/in the U.S.), but this time around it was a hotly anticipated record. The early two tracks, the singles, were then two of the only things people sort of stopped and made time for immediately last year. It didn't hurt that the consensus was then "wow, this is really good."

― scottpl, Friday, December 11, 2009 1:27 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think ur a probotector (cozen), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

It might be interesting to see which of the top tracks was widely disseminated as a free and legal mp3 by the label. Those songs are very, very easy to hear for people who spend all day listening to music on their computers. The other songs you have to work just a *little* bit harder, like 5 clicks instead of 2, and it's much harder to repeat those listens if you can't download them or don't take the time to do so. In this way, releasing free and legal mp3s is sort of like pushing a song on radio, b/c it has an easier time becoming ubiquitous for this segment of listeners.

Mark, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

it sounds really good in shops too

x-post

I think ur a probotector (cozen), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

saw no love anywhere for the VERY Phoenix-like Das Pop album finally released last year - don't suppose it got a US release tho

mdskltr (blueski), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

One thing I've been curious about the past few years is how many voters simply vote for the ten singles (tracks, whatever) that their computer tells them they played the most through the year. Which to me seems weirdly clinical (part of what I meant about turning a fun exercise dutiful), not to mention not a even a very dependable guage of what songs somebody heard (let alone loved) most, since it leaves out, say, songs heard in public settings, on other computers, wherever. Maybe no voters do that; maybe hundreds of them do now. I really have no idea.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

pretty sure most critics put more thought into in than that. if they didn't want to, why would they be critics?

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

funny, though - most cases where i've overlapped singles and albums, it's actually the album i might get tired of a few years later, not the song.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

I do vote for the singles I played most often, which by definition means the ones I enjoyed most. When my computer starts telling me what to do, though, I'll start to pray that it hooks me up with a date on Saturday night.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

one problem there is that songs that came out earlier in the year would likely have more plays. but releases from the first six months probably fare better generally anyway. what was the last P&J winner to have been released AFTER say, September? i see 'Modern Times' and 'Late Registration' both came out at the very end of August but would've been leaked a while before that anyway.

mdskltr (blueski), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

It might be interesting to see which of the top tracks was widely disseminated as a free and legal mp3 by the label.

A very unscientific survey reveals:

"Empire," no.
"1901," yes.
"My Girls," no.
"Two Weeks," no.
"Stillness," limited-release
"Zero," no.
"Bad Romance," no. (Although if you wanted the uncensored version you had to find a contraband version of it.)
"Lust For Life," yes.
"Lisztomania," no.
"You Belong With Me," no.

All these songs did have videos, which I think at least denotes them as "emphasis tracks."

maura, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

people that rubber stamp their singles ballots w/ the same artists as their albums ballots are the worst imo, even moreso than people that don't bother to list any singles. i mean i usually end up having 1 or 2 singles that are from albums on my top 10, but those usually feel like big undeniable singles i'd feel dishonest not including. if you look at P&J singles lists in the 80s and 90s, they were full of big shameless pop hits that don't seem particularly "critic-friendly" in retrospect, no matter how predictable the albums lists look. how critics eventually started treating enjoying popular hit songs like eating their vegetables, I have no idea.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

I just crunched some numbers to see what would happen to the results if all the votes from current Pitchfork staffers (I counted 29 on PFM's masthead) were dropped.

The answer: not much. At least within the top 20, which is all I looked at.

The only changes in ranking are that Girls and Mos Def trade places at #10 and #11, ditto Fever Ray and Maxwell at #13 and #14, and Baroness and Sonic Youth at #19 and #20.

Otherwise, it's like: Animal Collective wins by only 259 points, instead of 331.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

Interesting, But I don't think anybody has suggested that Pitchfork staffers are a major part of the problem.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

scottpl,

no one is denying that pfork has more sway than any blogger or music mag, and i'm sorry if i made it seem like Pop Tarts Suck Toasted or whatever is calling the shots. What I'm trying to say that NO ONE is calling the shots. Most bands that break big are part of some echo chamber fueled by the internet. Critics listen to bloggers, bloggers listen to critics, people listen to a Forkcast track, people see them when they open for the big band--its a big swirling snowball effect that you cannot credit one person or website to. Just because Pfork has the biggest, widest-reaching platform to write about this doesn't mean that they are calling the shots. I think it's really kind of condescending to think that the majority of the 696 biggest music nerds on the planet are just cribbing from the pfork list.

the fact is that a lot of the records that ppl give pfork credit for, anyone who works in the industry and does a modest amount of due dilligence could have seen coming a mile a way. I mean, I remember the lead-ups to Deerhunter, Dan Deacon, Dirty Projjies and AnCo09. None of those records were "pfork plants a review, world changes course." They were slow builds that anyone who writes about music and goes to punk shows saw coming. I remember TWO WEEKS (no pun intended) of people creaming all over MPP before pfork said the word boo.

People think I have a problem with pitchfork and I assuredly do not--hell i love pfork and read the damn thing all the time. But I have a problem with "the myth of pitchfork," that they're shaping the lives of 20/30somethings the world over with their nutrageous tastemaking, when they're really making a lot of incredibly smart decisions based on things people are talking about already, and using their enormous circulation to blast them out into the red states and starbucks dilletantes.

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

what happened to black kids who pitchfork hyped and then turned against btw?

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

think i prefer the former approach in all honesty xp

mdskltr (blueski), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

what happened to black kids who pitchfork hyped and then turned against btw?

― call all destroyer, Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:59 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they still sell plenty of records.

Also, I remember even having dinner with Maura and Jess @CMJ the year of Black Kids, and we all saw Black Kids coming because it was all ANYONE was talking about that week, not just pfork

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

i thought he was talking about the Clipse

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

hahah

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's really kind of condescending to think that the majority of the 696 biggest music nerds on the planet are just cribbing from the pfork list.

Just to be clear, this isn't what I've been suggesting, either. (In fact, in my essay, I talked about the exact snowball effect that Whiney names, in regards to Animal Collective -- even used that same word.) I think earlier end-of-year lists in general affect Pazz & Jop now, and Pitchfork is a very visible part of that. But it's one piece a much bigger picture. (Plus, not to play devil's advocate, but December is a really busy month for people! Maybe people need a crutch to help them fill out their ballot -- which, let's face it, is just one more than to do, amidst last minute holiday shopping or whatever. So it's not like I don't understand people looking at other lists to remind them what came out that year, or using their iTunes numbers to remind them what songs they played a lot. Just think it's kinda sad.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean, if i'll credit anything on pazz and jop to pfork it's maybe exposing incredibly lazy indie-fied critics to particular dubstep records or metal records, but any internet-savvy person who writes about music in any capacity doesn't need a hand-holding to like Grizzly Bear and Phoenix

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp "one piece of a much bigger picture...one more thing to do...."

Totally agree with some dude about the vegetable-eating thing, though. I wonder how many critics regularly listen to the radio these days, compared to in years past. I assume way less, which I think is also sad. And I'm not saying all critics necessarily should listen to the radio -- I know lots of good ones who don't, and I didn't listen to it much myself when I lived in New York and didn't have a car -- but it's definitely one way to help expose critics to singles that might not be in their personal comfort zone. (And there were plenty of excellent singles on the radio in 2009, no matter what anybody thinks. So I don't buy the "it was just a bad year for hit singles" claim.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

Say what you will about the critics who made Imperial Bedroom the #1 album in 1982, but at least they didn't feel the need to put "Man Out Of Time" or "Beyond Belief" on their singles ballots, they voted for stuff like "The Message" and "Sexual Healing."

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

tbf I probably would have voted for "Party In The USA" and "Birthday Sex" had I voted

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

assume they're not "party in the usa" and "birthday sex," what were 2009's slighted "the message" and "sexual healing"?

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

could you frame that question in a way that doesn't set up any possible answer for easy dismissal and ridicule?

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

fwiw, Bon Iver was ineligible for our 2008 list because he was already on our 2007 list. So if you're counting there was a 5/10 not a 4/10 top 10 crossover last year but one of the non-crossovers wasn't even in play. Even if you want to extend it to the top 10 records eligible in both polls, it stays at 5/10 since the p&j #11 (nick cave) made our top 20 or 25 but not our top 10.

Two of the other four records not shared last year in the top 10s were just outside ours at 11 and 13. So in 2008, p4k and P&j shared seven of the top 12 records that were eligible for both polls. This year they shared 11 of the top 13.

Looks like in 2006 five of our top seven records were also in the P&J top 10, so the count of 4/10 was wrong there too.

In 2005, it was indeed a 4/10 crossover; the P&J top three were all in our top four, so they nearly matched up across the top.

As I said, I think the similarities though are more striking as you break down by genre and extend past the top 10 to the top 40. If you were to set aside pretty much any baby boomer music-- and I am cherrypicking stats here like crazy point at this point, but if you're trying to figure out what sort of shit people under 40 or so want from a music press it's instructive-- they would become even more pronounced.

Again, I am in no way saying there is a casual effect but they match up quite well. At the same time, Pitchfork has thrived as a music magazine the past five years in a v difficult climate first for media and music, then for internet advertising, then for everybody. And I would guess being pretty ok at sniffing out what people who want to write, read, and think about music in this country tend to like is part of the reason.

//

sure. whiney, I agree with that. It is impossible for one thing to take a seedling of something totally in a vacuum and throw it onto the world these days. Someone was always there first, which is why, as I said above, it's a fool's errand to claim being there first as your badge of honor. So, no, the world doesn't change course; but I think the world accelerates course to some degree. The jump in audience that these "slow builds anyone can see coming" gets from us is a fast track that you are underestimating. There used to be a hell of a lot of more steps between "punk shows" and some of the places these bands have gone lately.

Again, I'm not saying "We did it" but we helped way more than you think. Unless there was some other platform as large as ours in which to broadcast all of this "creaming" people were doing (radio; no; tv: maybe one late-night appearance; RS: no). Or you think the rest of the world is in tune to all these small indie outlets (they are not). The odd sort of third-tier death cab-y stuff that gets into gossip girl and satellite radio does well w/o us, but it's the established channels of radio and tv selling those records, not the internet/bklyn types that you think would get AnCo09 all this attention w/o us.

If your theory holds, we haven't mattered since 2004 or whatever you said, then all this shit would presumably exist the same w/o us then it would follow that there would be popular indie bands from the past 5-6 years that Pitchfork doesn't like: So who do you think those are? Which indie bands are making the top 40 of p&j or doing very well in indie circles based solely on the "creaming" of the masses and w/o our signing off on them? I want to see some names.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

could you frame that question in a way that doesn't set up any possible answer for easy dismissal and ridicule?

you're the one who made the "they didn't praise costello twice, they praised grandmaster flash and marvin gaye" as well - so yeah, what are the obvious pop picks like "the message" and "sexual healing" in 2009 that should have top tenned and didn't? I'm actually being honest when I say "Party In The USA" and "Birthday Sex" are as close as I can get.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

fwiw I was pretty surprised to see my #1, "Blame It," only get as high as 55, and my #2, "Pretty Wings," did pretty well but really shoulda been top 10.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Ha ha, actually some dude just reminded me of the year that Greil Marcus put three different Costello Punch The Clock singles on his ballot. ("Shipbuilding," "Pills And Soap," and uh, whatever that other one was.) (But Greil also had no problem voting for Blue Oyster Cult's "In Thee," Moon Martin's "Rolene," Donna Summer's "Hot Stuff," Foreigner's "Dirty White Boy," and an Esssential Logic EP in 1979, so no complaints here.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

any internet-savvy person who writes about music in any capacity doesn't need a hand-holding to like Grizzly Bear and Phoenix

doesn't need a hand-holding to hear grizzly bear and phoenix -- why so many people like them, enough to put on a 10-best-of-the-year list, that's a whole other issue. i think chuck's real root question is, what is this sensibility (which he largely does not share), where did it come from, what is shaping it? pfork is the most visible manifestation of it, but it's still just a manifestation, not a root cause. why such a seeming homogeneity of taste among music tastemakers at a time of such profligate musical diversity? when everybody (and especially people who really care about and write about music) can allegedly hear everything and anything they want to, why do so many of them gravitate to a seemingly narrow part of the spectrum? that's the real thing i think some people are scratching their heads at here, much more than the relative degree and importance of pitchfork's influence. (and obv. i know that in fact animal collective don't sound anything like phoenix and neither sounds like the yeah yeah yeahs, but i do think it's fair to group them as part of a sensibility if not a genre per se.)

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think either of the two Black Eyed Peas megahits from 2009 would've finished higher in a late '90s P&J poll.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

does pop have to be "Sexual Healing"-level great to justifiably outperform a promo mp3 from Domino or Warp Records, I guess is my question now. (xpost)

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean, Smash Mouth finished in the P&J top 10 singles TWICE.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

Amid all this hand-wringing, 2009 wasn't exactly a vintage year for mega-selling pop music. I'm not really going to bang the drum for La Roux, the Black Eyed Peas or Flo Rida.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

nobody said mega-selling, I'm just talking about singles that charted on any singles chart anywhere in the US.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

what a disaster for 2009

xpost nah, and I'll definitely take "birthday sex" over "hyph myngo" or girls or whatever, I just can't get indignant that Jamie Foxx doesn't make the top ten singles or that Roseanne Cash, Green Day and that Sparklehorse/Dangermouse collabo didn't take their rightful place in the upper reaches of the album chart. There's an obvious nerd bias to this stuff, but I feel like people are just demanding indie guilt in the face of indie solipsism, and these criticisms are actually demanding young crits fulfill a duty than that they're missing out on fun.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

typos galore there (and the disaster crack was re: BEPs).

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

I have a problem with "the myth of pitchfork," that they're shaping the lives of 20/30somethings the world over with their nutrageous tastemaking, when they're really making a lot of incredibly smart decisions based on things people are talking about already, and using their enormous circulation to blast them out into the red states and starbucks dilletantes.

I think this is 100% otm.

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

why would indie guilt be the #1 reason to pay attention to music that isn't indie rock, or want other people to? once again, we're not talking about catchy popular ubiquitous hit songs, not brussel sprouts.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

er strike that first "not" obviously

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

you're not talking about "paying attention to catchy popular ubiquitous hit songs," you're talking about finding them to be among the ten best songs they heard this year. and as much as I've enjoyed a few of the year's declarations of sexual prowess and fashion-line themes, I didn't enjoy them so much that I'm going to demand ambitious collegiates put the dirty projectors down to give them love or whatever.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

and I would have totally gone to bat for smashmouth

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

P&J runs a "singles" list, not a "songs" or "tracks" list. I just think that should still count for something.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ah, another iteration of the old Lloyd Cole post-collegiate fanbase vs girls wearing Madonna gummy bracelets divide, in other words.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

some dude otm, i still only vote for songs that are actual singles

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

And again, the singles ballots are optional, and many have and still do just leave them blank. Maybe the only difference is that a lot of the people that used to leave them blank aren't anymore.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

didn't maura say all the top ten entries had videos?

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

Nothing says ambition like the Dirty Projectors.

Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

only 4 of them charted in the Hot 100, though, which is a record low (I won't give away more, since I'm still compiling more complete data).

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

So, just supposin', if PFM asked its single reviewers to review more R&B, diva pop, and Britishes (as, say, The Singles Jukebox does), would it make any dent on the P&J singles chart?

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 15:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

this is starting to sound like canadian content laws

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think it would have been hilariously awesome if all 3 of BEP's 2009 singles ended up in the top 10. I fucking love those songs.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/12662-its-not-me-its-you/

so your example of a band that the indie cognoscenti behind Dan Deacon and Deerhunter has launched w/o us is an americana/folk group produced by Rick Rubin for his Sony label that gained a large audience in part touring with Dave Matthews and Widespread Panic?

I have a problem with "the myth of pitchfork," that they're shaping the lives of 20/30somethings the world over with their nutrageous tastemaking, when they're really making a lot of incredibly smart decisions based on things people are talking about already, and using their enormous circulation to blast them out into the red states and starbucks dilletantes.

What, in this context, is the difference between "nutrageous tastemaking" and "smart decisions", other than hyperbole and the pain each phrase exacts when you read it? Again, it's not like many of the hyped indie bands we "passed" on-- sound team, cold war kids, voxtrot, anathallo, ghostland observatory, white denim, Someone Still Loves You Boris Yeltsin, birdmonster, for examples-- went anywhere in the long run did they?

Of course we are filtering through the bands around; of course some people freaking talk about them before we run shit, especially since, as I said before, we vet things carefully because every decision we make gets remembered. So we are sifting through things and making decisions based on what we like and broadcasting those decisions to an exponentially large audience than any other indie internet outlet. Then it turns out that only it's mostly only the bands we like that also get a foothold via these circles. And yet somehow we don't matter at all other than to the poor silly Starbucks drinkers and flyover kids who aren't wise enough to find this stuff through the much tinier outlets that exist? Honestly, Chris you know I love ya, but sometimes I think the whole of BKLYN has a pretty effed up perspective on this stuff. For us to drop out and not leave a central space in the middle of this process, would certainly alter things, or at the very least slow them down considerably. Maybe not for the tight circle of feedback-loop types feeding each other in NYC, but for many others, not just the people you're sniffing at here.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

you linked to lily allen, silly head

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

it's not like many of the hyped indie bands we "passed" on--- went anywhere in the long run did they?

Yeah, but Electric Six are still making really good albums! (Something Anthony and I can finally agree on, I think.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

this is starting to sound like canadian content laws

― da croupier, Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:00 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'm not saying the system is broken and new rules need to be enforced, I'm saying that a new approach is being taken to the singles list by the voters, and the list is less interesting (or at least far less distinct from the albums list) because of it.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

The lack of critical enthusiasm for E6 is probably a big factor in my indifference as to which acts p'n'j does overrate.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Come back when E6 has been around as long as The Cure and Depeche Mode and you'll finally understand Ned and me.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

there are plenty of bands that PF ignored or panned early on that went on to do big things -- De Stijl was a pretty big deal, indie-wise, but they didn't review the White Stripes until White Blood Cells, while defensively noting on the front page that they hadn't reviewed the first 2 albums because noone sent them promos.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

at least those guys are rich!

xpost

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

haha true

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

you linked to lily allen, silly head

yeah wrong link; lily allen we were down with from the start though, and again the AnCo crowd didn't matter there at all

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

there are plenty of bands that PF ignored or panned early on that went on to do big things

yeah, totally. see, for instance, this review of Blood Visions that they didn't run until after Jay signed with Matador--long after it had been out and gotten pretty big with people I know

http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/6760-through-the-cracks/

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

Had we poked our head up around the middle of last year and gotten as excited about this record as we should (I would have lobbied for a "Best New Music" designation), there would be loads of people pointing and snickering about how "late" we were to it, which in hindsight is a silly thing to worry about-- reviewing it then would have meant there would have been far more readers just learning about it for the first time.

Ha, I guess being late to something is a silly thing to worry about though, right? ;)

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't think we'll ever know whether pitchfork is the chicken or the egg

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

Again, it's not like many of the hyped indie bands we "passed" on-- sound team, cold war kids, voxtrot, anathallo, ghostland observatory, white denim, Someone Still Loves You Boris Yeltsin, birdmonster, for examples-- went anywhere in the long run did they?

Ppl have selective memories about pfork too! Like you guys regularly give 8s to bands like Oneida and Patrin-endorsed indie rappers and no one gives a flying fuck because it's not falling into a model of the worldwide Juno-styled hand-scribbled NPR indieverse that is actually bigger than pfork

i mean, look, i agree with you on most of your points re: filtering and having a bigger reach than coffee unaderachievers or whatevs, but this debate is about pitchfork's effect on the 696 critics who vote in p&j, and those voters are all definitely more PART of the feddback loop than PRODUCTS of the feedback loop

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

the whole pfork thing is selective memory. like everyone "forgets" that the same day Dan Deacon's album got his glowing review on pfork, he was also the front page story on the NYT arts section

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

And also, i can't say much for indie bands you didn't pass on like CYHSY and Tapes N Tapes actually going anywhere in the long run

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

The Pitchfork argument is really, I think, just an Internet argument: the P&J voting community has a much faster and more amplified internal feedback loop today than it had 30 years ago. There are dozens of factors in this, from human editorial decisions to collaborative filtering, and the effect is futher amplified by the addition of voters for whom the web is their native media (both as writers and music-learners), who are collectively more active participants in these loops.

And so, necessarily, the "winners" chart is the least interesting thing about the P&J. The poll's real value is that it collects data that rewards exploration, either by just clicking around in it yourself, or by statistical correlation. More voters make the data more interesting, overall, but the "winners" less interesting.

The singles side suffers more subltly from the internet loop effects, or more precisely, from the addition of these loop effects to the old loop effects of radio in a pre-internet world. Effectively, in the old days, the album poll was freeform and the singles poll was constrained, with radio as the authoritative source of nominations. Radio still contributes, but it's no longer authoritative. Thus the "singles" side fragments and disperses. Absent some structural change, over the next few years I think we'll see it flatten out even more.

I don't think this is necessarily bad. One of the things I did in my data-analysis was an Artist chart (here), counting album-points as voted, and song-votes as 2 points each. This would really need some more data-work to dual-attribute all the X-ft-Y singles to X (and Y?), and maybe a rule-tweak (no more than two songs from a single album, would be my suggestion, just to keep people from boring point-loading on their favorite album), but this combined chart is already much more interesting than either current official chart, and turns the phenomenon of people voting for their favorite tracks from their favorite albums into a virtue, as you can now kind of see deeper into voters' experiences of those albums.

glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

I wonder what would happen, Glenn, if you eliminated the album-ballot-duplicating votes of anyone who votes for, say, three or more singles from albums they've also voted for, and then re-crunched the remaining singles numbers from there. If that makes any sense (which it probably doesn't).

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

I really want to see that Artist chart, but I got a login thing from your link, and can't find it on the main All Idols page.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

but sometimes I think the whole of BKLYN has a pretty effed up perspective on this stuff

i mean, this is true too.

whenever i co home for xmas break, i go to the record store in my hometown I always ask how many records they sold. They never even ORDERED a copy of Animal Collective or Dirty Projectors. They sold one Gucci Mane on opening week.

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Or easier (though I'd never advocate this as a policy), what would happen if you just subtracted all album-duplicating singles votes in general. (Guessing that might hurt, say, DJ Quik and Kurupt's singles ratings as much as any indie band's -- might not help Taylor Swift's either -- but I'd still be curious how the results would shake out.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

what if people just voted for singles

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

De Stijl was a pretty big deal, indie-wise,

This isn't a great example to use, because the record came out in 2000, long before Pitchfork had nearly the kind of influence it does now. And aren't we trying to find examples of indie records that were not just popular in a particular scene but around which a widespread critical consensus developed? De Stijl only finished #229 in P&J.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't think that anyone's arguing that P4k doesn't provide a valuable service to the indie music-listening community, or that they aren't to some extent arbiters of taste within that sphere. They have a symbiotic relationship to that scene - both benefiting from its growing popularity and contributing to it. The music would exist without P4k or a similar site, but it wouldn't perhaps be as widely known or promoted outside the confines of that scene. Every scene needs some star acts to champion it, and P4k helps in the process of consensus formation around those stars. They don't dictate who the stars will be, but by generally listening to a lot of stuff and having taste that aligns pretty well with their audience, they are usually able to provide some filtering. So P4k may be a small contributing factor to indie domination of P&J, but I would argue that there are other more important factors, but it's difficult to discuss because "indie" is such an amorphous label.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

what if people just voted for singles

i was going to say "would you bitch if people voted for airplay-only push tracks from pop albums?" but then that's a pretty '90s phenomenon with no real place in iTunes culture. And, for the same reason - any indie push track with an official video is a single.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

btw PF "passing" on bands seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me -- once the site has made a big gesture of saying "this band sucks, don't believe the hype" or "they're not the kind of indie we like" or whatever, odds are slim that readers or staff are going to be following them much from thereon to even know if they end up improving or making a great record later on. there have been so many slow burn careers the last few years, from bands who just seemed to be plugging along for years and eventually got a big following (Of Montreal, Spoon, etc.) that it'll be interesting to see, 5 or 10 years from now, what bands can survive a quick-bursting blog/PF hype bubble and end up having a good long run and maybe winning back some of those media outlets (or finding different kinds of success).

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

I wrote for Pitchfork in 2000, and everyone I knew IRL (if not on staff, since I didn't really know any of those folks at the time ) that listened to indie at the time was talking about De Stijl or telling me to check it out. it definitely felt weird at the time that PF didn't review it.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

I really want to see that Artist chart, but I got a login thing from your link, and can't find it on the main All Idols page.

https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=Pazz-Jop-2009&query=Combined+Artist+Chart

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

does anyone know how much a gap there is between # of readers, say, Stereogum, has and the # of reads P4k has?

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

Or easier (though I'd never advocate this as a policy), what would happen if you just subtracted all album-duplicating singles votes in general

This would solve the laziness issue - you can either vote for the single or the album, but not both - but it would penalize acts who release a great album that also spawns a lot of great singles. Interesting trade-off, I guess. I don't know if there's a more gradualist remedy that would be equally effective. I think maybe that it would be best to fragment the poll. Forget the idea of overall best album & single, but have separate polls for "Best Indie Album", "Best Dance Single", "Best Radio Single", "Best Video", "Best Country Album", "Best Metal Album", etc. Let people vote in as many of the sub-polls as they want to.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

just trying to wrap my head around the relative significance (or lack thereof) of the more well-known sectors of the indie blogosphere and P4k

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

@some dude: sometimes PFork recants though or hedges and revises.

Case in point: Fever to Tell got a sort of damning with half praise review when it initially came out, but later made top 50 of the decade. Discovery got an even worse review and was even higher later. See also Andrew W.K.

hands off the brainbox you'll break it (penpen), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Okay, sure, Al -- PF should've reviewed De Stijl at the time. I'm still not sure what that has to do with what we're talking about, though. It's not just indie bands that are popular without Pitchfork. It's indie bands that are *critically* popular in *the last few years* without Pitchfork.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

well, i was being pedantic about a smaller point made upthread, not the big picture debate here. PF were reviewing 4 albums a day then compared to 5 now, so it just seems odd to me that a band that had been touring w/ Pavement and Sleater-Kinney, as the White Stripes had at that point, got kinda slept on by the site.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

does anyone know how much a gap there is between # of readers, say, Stereogum, has and the # of reads P4k has?

― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:48 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's actually chasmlike. pfork DOMINATES all over any sort of indie blog, so the sense of entitlement a lot of them have is extra lolleriffic

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

though, stuff like Rolling Stone.com gets as much traffic as pitchfork on any given day. And the type of traffic that fuels shit like TMZ or Perez makes p4k look like it has the readers your little sister's myspace page

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

damn your sister must be hot

iatee, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Oh, sorry, here's the correct link to the Artist Chart. (jaymc caught this already)

There was only one 2009 ballot that had more than three songs by the same artist (Jimmy Draper's Lady Gaga fiesta), and only three others with 3, so the counts aren't being abused that way. But the album-overlap is pretty significant. Here's a new table comparing the total vote-count to the count excluding song/album overlap (technically speaking, excluding song-votes from ballots with an album by the same artist; I don't have actual track-listings to work with, so some of these might be non-album singles). As surmised, GAPDY suffer dramatically in this version. Jay-Z still wins, but Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift jump up to #2 and 3.

glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

This would solve the laziness issue - you can either vote for the single or the album, but not both - but it would penalize acts who release a great album that also spawns a lot of great singles.

Right, it would've cut into "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and "Billie Jean" and "When Doves Cry" and "Dancing In The Dark" and "Bring The Noise" etc. votes, which obviously makes no sense. I would actually advocate, though, a limit on the number of album-duplicating singles you can put on your ballot. Maybe two or three, tops. Beyond that, all your duplicating singles don't count. May actually mention this to Harvilla.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

something has to be done

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

It would be nice if something was.

only one 2009 ballot that had more than three songs by the same artist

Well, that's not what I meant. I meant if you vote for three different singles off of three different albums you also voted for, not all off the same album. But I'll check that link when I have a chance.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

damn your sister must be hot

I lold

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

yeah, that totally makes sense Whiney. i know plenty of people who reach P4k but, say, zero who read GvB or whateverthefuck.

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

Alexa rankings:

Rolling Stone: #2,457
NME: #2,819
Pitchfork: #2,903
Resident Advisor: #9,208
Stereogum: #10,162
Paste: #10,356
PopMatters: #12,153
Brooklyn Vegan: #14,921
Spin: #16,307

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

my mind is always blown at PopMatters traffic

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

Here's a new table comparing the total vote-count to the count excluding song/album overlap

This table seems much improved. A single should be something that appeals to more people than those who like the whole album.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Maybe b/c it's not just a music site but an all-purpose arts/culture/media site?

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

thanks for those rankings, jaymc! didn't realize there'd be such a disparity between Spin and Rolling Stone, tbh

also, most of the stuff I've read on PopMatters is really, really poorly written

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

I was actually surprised at how low Spin.com was, too. Then again, I'm not sure who its target audience is anymore.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

So, according to Glenn's chart there (assuming I'm understanding it right), these are the singles that drew fewer than half of their votes from people who didn't also vote for the album (or, if this is clearer, more than half of their votes from people who did vote for the album):

4 Phoenix · 1901 81 38 0.469
5 Grizzly Bear · Two Weeks 65 29 0.446
7 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · Zero 59 29 0.492
8 Dirty Projectors · Stillness Is the Move 64 28 0.438
12 Animal Collective · My Girls 76 23 0.303
48 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · Heads Will Roll 27 10 0.37
67 Animal Collective · What Would I Want? Sky 14 2 0.143

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

why is this a problem again? because they're indie rock?

iatee, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

xhuxk, you're missing:

55 Girls · Hellhole Ratrace 17 8 0.471
57 Neko Case · This Tornado Loves You 19 8 0.421

But otherwise, yeah.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

why is this a problem again? because they're indie rock?

No, it's just more boring when the albums and singles list overlap so much.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Yeah just noticed that! Oops, missed these two:

55 Girls · Hellhole Ratrace 17 8 0.471
57 Neko Case · This Tornado Loves You 19 8 0.421

These get exactly half of their support from album voters:

53 The xx · Crystalised 18 9 0.5
58 Raekwon (ft. Ghostface Killah, Inspectah Deck and Method Man) · House of Flying Daggers 16 8 0.5
60 Brad Paisley · Welcome to the Future 14 7 0.5

Singles that scored between 0.5 and 0.6: Girls "Lust For Life," Phoenix "Lisztomania," Bat For Lashes "Daniel," Maxwell "Pretty Wings," Avett Brothers "I And Love You," Pearl Jam "The Fixer," St. Vincent "Actor Out Of Work," Very Best (w Ezra Koenig) "Warm Heart Of Africa."

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp I think it's boring either way

iatee, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

albums and singles lists used to be different, though, a real demonstrable yin and yang. whether they wore boring, they were boring in different ways too.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

i guess those days are over?

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

fucking internet ruined music this blows

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

2009: the year indie broke pazz'n'jop

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

but why should they be? P&J is one of the only major year-end lists that does singles-qua-singles, not just albums, not 'tracks,' and I think having that is valuable. (xpost)

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

i almost wonder if the pop critics are dying out because indie-critics have the DIY ethic where they're happy to do a review for $20

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

Also, you could argue that Animal Collective's "What Would I Want? Sky" shouldn't be on there, because the Fall Be Kind EP that it appears on only got two album votes, while the song got 14 votes. But it looks like 12 of those 14 votes were from people who also voted for Merriweather Post Pavilion.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

i'm with some dude. i really think p&J should be hard and about SINGLES. but then how do we decide what a single is?

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

i'm not even really sure what indie songs are actually released as singles and which ones aren't--i guess maybe that's how most of the votership feels?

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

i go on whether i hear something mainly outside of the context of the album or my iTunes (radio, TV, clubs and parties), because i mean, i liked the Quik & Kurupt singles, but i didn't really hear them anywhere unless i was the one pressing 'play' myself.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

Which songs in particular are people bitching about re: not being singles? What are the hands-down "wtf no video, no 7", no promotion, BULLSHIT INDIE MOTHER FUCKER" plain and blatant album tracks.

xpost ok, "a single is defined by ubiquity" is one answer

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

as noted above, all the songs in the top 10 had videos and were, to some degree, promoted as 'singles' or emphasis tracks, and maybe the voters did hear them out at parties a lot or whatever. i mean, it's not for me to say whether them hearing a song at an indie dance party (or something? do they play new stuff at those or only old Smiths and Depeche Mode songs?) is less valid than me hearing a song on a Radio One-owned station or MTV Hits, but i think it's worth talking about.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

how do we decide what a single is?

You really can't anymore, not when basically every song can be bought individually on iTunes or wherever. I mean, I know in my head what I'd consider a single, for my own list. But by the late '90s (really, starting with ubiquitous AOR airplay tracks that were never released alone, even pre-digital era) it became impossible to enforce.

Honestly, when Christgau let Doug Simmons vote for Guns N Roses' "Civil War" in 1991, that opened the floodgates. It's been downhill ever since.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

This doesn't directly address the poll or the critics voting in it, but I've noticed with my students that the Shared Listening Experience we've talked so much about is gone – unless you're attending the indie dance party that Al mentioned. It's got something to do with the line blurring between "single" and "track I really like": if you no longer listen to the radio, you get your music from sampling it on YouTube, then either buy the track online or download it illegally. Listening is more atomized.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

ha, at least "Civil War" was a decent-sized rock radio hit!

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

and maybe the voters did hear them out at parties a lot or whatever

so fucking help me if i go to a party and someone plays GIRLS

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

would leave that party

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Still not sure why the Best Singles Of The Year have to be the Best Hit Singles Of The Year

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

Because as much as everyone wants to decry popularity, it's still a valid component to the equation one uses to evaluate something's worth.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

my secondary nagging issue here is, the people that vote for songs from albums on their ballot, are they voting for it because it's their favorite song or because it's the single or the best known track? is it strategic or pure passion? because part of the reason i don't vote for my favorite deep cut off of the Sonic Youth or Jarvis Cocker album or w/e my favorite indie albums are in a given year is that they'd be my own particular favorite and the odds would be very slim of anyone else voting for it. and i dunno, if people can really easily agree on the best track from an album that kinda says something negative about the album as a whole.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

pretty sure everyone voted for a song they thought at the very least SHOULD be a hit, and i'm still waiting to hear which track in the top 40 was a breach of faith re: single status.

da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

I voted for "Heads Will Roll" because it was so much my favorite song that I often played it and nothing else on the album (and lol I did hear it at an indie dance party).

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

civil war was a big single in the uk

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

There are five songs in the top 20 that the Singles Jukebox didn't cover:

Girls - Lust for Life
Lady Gaga - Poker Face
Kings of Leon - Use Somebody
Atlas Sound - Walkabout
Kid Cudi - Day N Nite

The Gaga, Cudi, and Kings of Leon singles came out before the Jukebox was revived in March and almost certainly would've been covered otherwise.

As for the other two: "Walkabout" was available as a promo mp3 on 4AD's website. Can't tell if there was a video or not. "Lust for Life" was released as a limited-edition 7" and had a video.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

if people can really easily agree on the best track from an album that kinda says something negative about the album as a whole

I don't know if "a lot of people easily agree that this song is the best one on the album" is a de facto negative statement without a ton of inference turning "best" into "only song worth listening to"

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

my secondary nagging issue here is, the people that vote for songs from albums on their ballot, are they voting for it because it's their favorite song or because it's the single or the best known track?

I'm constantly surprised at how often these are the same for me. In general, bands/labels do a pretty good job of identifying the standout track to push.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hypocrite that I am, I basically consider everything reviewed on Singles Jukebox eligible for my own singles list, whether it's being promoted as one otherwise or not. (Assume they are, 99% of the time, but it probably does still mean that I'm part of the problem.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

are you guys gonna let me write for singles jukebox this year or what. i sent an email to wbs and he didn't respond u_u

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

When did you send it? I get the impression Will has been pretty stressed out lately.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

Isn't part of the reason for having a singles poll to throw a spotlight on fantastic music which either isn't on an album at all, or where the parent album really is mostly filler? The "hit" thing is sort of a red herring - sometimes that music has hit big, sometimes it hasn't.

But obviously a poll full of tracks from beloved albums isn't doing that job.

So the questions I'd be asking are: what is the great music that doesn't turn up on albums? And why aren't critics hearing/voting for it? It seems to me internet consensus shouldn't be a big factor here - if that consensus can form around an album, it can surely form around a track.

Groke, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

"Lust for Life" was released as a single in 2008 (I downloaded it from eMusic; didn't care for it then, don't care about it now).

I voted for two album cuts myself (Art Brut's "Demons Out!" and Dam-Funk's "Brookside Park") because I played them obsessively, like singles. Better send me back to the non-voting salt mines, Harvilla.

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

Oh, I see what you mean now, Chuck. Here's the breakdown of 2009 ballots by artist-overlap between albums and singles:

1 ballot had exactly the same artists on both lists, in the same order even.
0 ballots had 9 overlapping artists.
1 had 8.
14 had 7.
24 had 6.
42 had 5.
57 had 4.
74 had 3.
88 had 2.
81 had 1.
315 had none.

So with a no-more-than-3 rule, 139 people would have had more work to do, for a total of 284 votes that would need to be changed. But that's only ~6% of the single votes cast, and so dwarfed by the laziness of people who didn't vote for *any* singles, or only a couple (~2200-ish blank single slots).

glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

Are there really very many songs that exist outside of albums these days? I just went through my 78-track favorite-songs-of-2009, and these are the only ones I found that did not have homes on full-length albums:

Spoon, "Got Nuffin" (from Got Nuffin EP)
Lady Gaga, "Bad Romance" (from The Fame Monster EP)
Washed Out, "Feel It All Around" (from Life of Leisure EP)
Destroyer, "Bay of Pigs" (from Bay of Pigs EP)

Furthermore, the Spoon song eventually showed up on the band's 2010 album. And with eight tracks, The Fame Monster is really pushing the limit of an EP.

Maybe I'm the problem, though. I guess the best example this year of a popular single without an album was "Combination Pizza Hut and Taco Bell."

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

Actually, you also probably see it way more often with dance/electronic music.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

man, Pitchfork circa 2000 and 2001 vs now is night and day. The size of the site now utterly dwarfs the site then, and certainly the way it's run and decisions are made are different (then: one guy in his apartment trying to juggle it all by calling a few labels and emailing people for reviews turned around asap; today: 17 f/t employees in two offices planning all aspects of a small biz/publication) is drastically different as well. It is amazing that people think the one is relevant to the other.

but I guess since many of you all live on the internet, and have an idea of "what pitchfork is" that extends back a decade, I don't think you recognize the ways "what Pitchfork is" has changed. We reach more people right now that Spin or Vibe ever did, even if you use the bs print mag idea that "every copy is read by 2.5 people." I get that we're free, and that not everyone looks at everything, and that someone clicking on the site by accident or for a second counts as a "reader." But not everyone looked at every individual piece of content in print pubs and the # of bs clicks we get is certainly not close to the number that were built into mag circ numbers/ad rates. e.g. it's hard as hell to fudge our metrics once you get away the frontpage; I know how many people have read, say, our Contra review or our The Fame Monster review. I would not be surprised if in a month those are the most-read reviews of either album in the U.S.

But a lot of people are happy to just ignore our readership because they personally knew some blog or dude who knew about dan deacon before we published a track review. You know who didn't? Most of our readers. (And Chris, if we're talking about the effects on Pazz and Jop: We matched 11 of the top 13 LPs, the top four metal LPs, five of the six top h-h LPs, and 31 of the top 34 songs were on our top 100. Again, we didn't do that through some sort of puppetmaster shit, but we are by any metric plugged in to what other critics and listeners want from music right now. We've succeeded at a time when nobody else has. I don't beg for credit or claim to be responsible for things, but to dismiss us outright as if we don't matter at all, which you've done, feels odd.)

hell, I should stop caring, get back to work, and let people keep underestimating us.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp (Like "Hyph Mngo.")

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

can't stand the mngo! wait, i think that's the one i don't like. i remember it from my foray into xlr8r-land.

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hmph Mngo

Andy K, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

i like the new, aggressive, scottpl

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't think we'll ever know whether pitchfork is the chicken or the egg

I think we're neither

we can basically 1. expose a lot of people to something, often something that would take years of touring and work to generate the exposure we can potentially provide, 2. expose nominally indie/guitar rock kids to non-indie music, 3. provide a large platform for opinions/artists that aren't related in some ways to the machinations of the music industry (i.e. we don't need a "cover star" or only have 12 "lead reviews" a month, or to run features only on newsstand-ready artists), which is something we share with the whole of the internet granted. Though we have a much bigger soapbox.

we are, at most accurate, I think something that accelerates a process that is or would already happen (the Whiney opinion to be fair, though he doesn't recognize the "acceleration" part I don't think) and/or be a pub that can stand up and say, in ways that other pubs can't (to the same # of ppl) or won't (bcuz they aren't built to do that), "this newish thing is important and deserves some attention" and people will at least follow up on that.

nobody likes some thing just because we do, and we aren't telling people what to think and they are listening, that's crazy. If anything you could argue we're better A&R people than journalists, but it's possible that's all readers want from a pub these days anyway.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

Are there really very many songs that exist outside of albums these days?

Well, I don't know how many were on albums (definitely a bunch of them, looks like) but from Glenn's list, these are the singles I see that had no overlap between album and singles voters, if that helps:

13 Joy Orbison · Hyph Mngo 22 22 1
14 Big Boi (ft. Gucci Mane) · Shine Blockas 21 21 1
18 Das Racist · Combination Pizza Hut and Taco Bell 18 18 1
21 Kid Cudi · Day 'N' Nite 16 16 1
22 Miley Cyrus · Party in the USA 16 16 1
26 Beyoncé · Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It) 14 14 1
33 Jay Electronica · Exhibit C 13 13 1
36 Jamie Foxx (ft. T-Pain) · Blame It 12 12 1
37 Kelly Clarkson · My Life Would Suck Without You 12 12 1
45 Major Lazer (ft. Nina Sky and Ricky Blaze) · Keep It Goin' Louder 10 10 1

Pretty sure Miley and Das Racist have no corresponding album. Beyonce' obviously came off an '08 album. Never heard of "Jay Electronica" until this very second. Skeptical about Kid Cudi up above -- didn't his album get a bunch of votes? Odd that there would be no overlap at all there.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think the jay electronica song is going to be on an album this year?

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

i like the new, aggressive, scottpl

haha, I don't. Need more sleep. Less stress. I def don't mean any antagonism to Chris or Chuck or anyone, other than maybe lex and even that's tongue-in-cheek and I think I agree with him personally a hell of a lot more than he'd think.

For whatever reason I just find it odd that we get swept under the rug so completely. I've generally stopped taking it personally years ago, but we take pride in what we do, we work very hard, we don't rush judgments...I dunno, I got into this conversation talking about some of the marco reasons that rock = indie, or that the internet is homogenizing opinions (not a good thing mind you), but I can't help find it weird that the one pub that has succeeded the past five years in this music, media, and economic environment was considered meaningless by 2003. in 2003, it was a one-man show, now it's a real pub. This is just tunnelvision to me.

And obv I take that personally since I started here in late 2004, and also bcuz I like Chris and respect him and it's hard to hear from him that he thinks we're a lark. Alright, I will get out of this thread.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

Never heard of these people until the last few minutes either, fwiw:

39 Washed Out · Feel It All Around 14 12 0.857

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

xxxp "Blame It," "My Life Would Suck Without You," "Keep It Goin' Louder," "Day 'N' Nite," and "Single Ladies" are off full-length albums. "Party in the USA" is off the Time of Our Lives EP. Presumably "Shine Blockas" is from Sir Luscious Left Foot (2010 release). The rest appear to be completely stand-alone (though I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually end up on albums this year).

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

Are there really very many songs that exist outside of albums these days?

Nine of my singles (and they were singles) did not appear on a single-artist album in 2009. One of the nine will definitely appear on a 2010 album. Not sure about the others.

Andy K, Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

also w/ a lot of popular music these days, especially R&B and rap, there's such a long lead time between singles being released and their parent albums being released that they're increasingly straddling different years

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Andy, I realized belatedly that it's far more common for dance/electronic artists to release stand-alone singles.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

like, the 2010 album Big Boi had a single off of on this year's poll also had an earlier single get 6 votes in the 2008 poll (xpost)

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

ilxor, did you see one of nabsico's Tumblr posts from earlier? you were quoted.

Didn't see this, actually... mind pointing me in the right direction?

I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp True -- I voted for a Kid Sister song in 2007 that eventually turned up on her 2009 album.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

Didn't see this, actually... mind pointing me in the right direction?

http://agrammar.tumblr.com/post/344749076/a-lengthy-hack-through-recent-music-crit-stuff-mostly

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Thanks!

I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

i almost wonder if the pop critics are dying out because indie-critics have the DIY ethic where they're happy to do a review for $20

what do you base the idea that there was ever a wide U.S. audience for pop crit? Seriously. It's always been for rock or things that sprouted from punk/new wave/etc. No different then as it is now. We have no legacy of Smash Hits or The Face. Blender lasted as long as it did because of its covers, corporate money, and celeb-based features, not its writing (sorry). A lot of other crits wrote for papers and stuff about pop stars but that audience now has gossip mags, celeb sites, tv to find out about, say, Rihanna. People want photobooks of Fergie not 400 words on her new LP. Now they don't need the words to see the photos. They don't to read how some critic thinks she bit M.I.A. in order to hear about her personal life.

When the Lex claimed Rihanna's TV iviews were proof that people cared about her LP, not only did it not matter she had an LP out, it probably didn't matter she was a musician in the first place. She was a celebrity. If she was ScarJo and Chris Brown was Ryan Reynolds and everyone involved behaved the same way, the narrative would have played out the same-- except more people would have cared since film is so much bigger than music.

Isn't it possible that, like I said before, a lot of people used to get paid a lot of money to write a lot of words about things that in actual fact nobody wanted to read? And now that we have direct metrics to measure online what is read, and less utilitarian need for critics (from a reader not a cultural POV), that has been found out to a degree?

I'm far far from celebrating that. It's depressing as hell. But I'd guess that music crit is being kept alive by (and therefore populated by), as one of my colleagues said, the exact same people keeping record stores alive. Those are the diehards and the specialists and the people who care enough to buy product. And to read and reviews. And they listen to indie. And AnCo is #1 in pazz and Jop. And VW can sell 125K records on an indie label.

That is simplistic as hell, but I still think there are elements of sad sad truth there. People are asking "where are the non-rock/indie crits" and maybe they should be asking "where are the non-rock/indie readers." You could start by locating where they were. If they existed.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

(btw "where are the non-rock/indie fans." is not the same as "where are the non-rock/indie readers" btw. the answer to the first is, I assume, justjared, ew, people, perez hilton, etc. And maybe...that's all those listeners ever wanted to know about those artists other than their music.)

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

aw, you know i love you, scott! and i def don't mean to sound cranky or antagostic either!

And i DEFINITELY don't p4k is a lark. I mean, i think the popularity of pitchfork has had a huge influence on indie culture being the dominant critical discourse and probably even has a huge effect on the singles list being more "songs" than "singles" these days and pushing certain songs into that arena. and i think we both agree that pfork is the dominant factor for the ACCELERATION of bands like dirty pro

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

And maybe...that's all those listeners ever wanted to know about those artists other than their music.

cough

maura, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

"i def don't mean to sound cranky or antagostic either!"

!

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

antagostic were robbed by the way. best death metal album of the year.

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

Wow- scottpl's post just keep getting better the more irritated he gets. I'm serious. That last one was awes.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

where are the non-rock/indie readers

This is where someone should introduce class and race, right? WELL IT'S NOT GONNA BE ME.

T Bone Streep (Cave17Matt), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't think it's a matter of class and race. It's a matter of those who like to listen to music vs. those who like to think & read about it. Those who like to think & read about their music by and large listen to indie (if they don't listen to classical or jazz or samba).

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

o really

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

after jaymc posted some Alexa rankings earlier in the thread, I decided to go check out the numbers on some more music pubs and blogs. here's what i found:

PUBS

Drowned In Sound - 27,794
The Quietus - 85,535
Tiny Mix Tapes - 96,162
Cokemachineglow - 161,925
Dusted - 164,749

BLOGS

Brooklyn Vegan - 14,921 [?!]
Idolator - 36,194
Hipster Runoff - 52,139
Largehearted Boy - 67,700
Gorilla vs. Bear - 74,497
You Ain't No Picasso - 162,415
MBV - 176,732
My Old Kentucky Blog - 234,986
Fluxblog - 262,131
Chromewaves - 279,463
Said the Gramophone - 289,300

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

This conversation is about to turn really lovely.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Oh sorry to offend yr delicate sensibilities Ned.

T Bone Streep (Cave17Matt), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure I was being really serious above. I didn't even vote in P'n'J. Carry on then.

T Bone Streep (Cave17Matt), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

The thing is, pop music doesn't have to generate as much relative interest in criticism and analysis, compared to indie, to be profitable or able to capture an audience. If (let's say) Rihanna sells 20 times as much as Animal Collective, she only has to have 5% as many fans interested in reading an intelligent, well-written review of her album, and it doesn't really matter if the other 95% just follow her through the gossip sites and fashion rags, if that review is well targeted toward its potential audience.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

And I mean, it's not like there aren't drooling, barely literate indie rock fans either -- ever take a look at the Stereogum comments section?

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Oh sorry to offend yr delicate sensibilities Ned.

Haha I was talking about o.nate's response, not your post!

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't know how me and scott end up arguing because i agree with like 95% of what he says

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

Those who like to think & read about their music by and large listen to indie

Wow. Uh...I have no words. (Though it's nice to know where all the great "thinkers" have been hiding lately, I suppose.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

I've always kinda felt that the more common ground you have with somebody, the better and more interesting your arguments will be about what little you don't see eye to eye on. I mean, The Lex is my #1 most similar voter on glenn's site!

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

I was just as much of an artist completist and producer credit scavenger when I was 12 and listening exclusively to Twin Cities Top 40 radio as I was when I discovered college rock after being thoroughly repulsed by hair metal's ascendancy shortly thereafter. I strongly suspect most of the other people here were the same way and I also believe we aren't measurably different from most other voracious music heads.

wow I can't believe I got all the way through that without typing "STFU"
oh, damn

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Two more Alexa rankings:

Metalsucks.net 48,828
Blabbermouth.net 67,208

neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

for the love of god everyone ignore that o nate post

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 19:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

hahahaha uh oh

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

I was just as much of an artist completist and producer credit scavenger when I was 12 and listening exclusively to Twin Cities Top 40 radio as I was when I discovered college rock after being thoroughly repulsed by hair metal's ascendancy shortly thereafter. I strongly suspect most of the other people here were the same way and I also believe we aren't measurably different from most other voracious music heads.

wow I can't believe I got all the way through that without typing "STFU"
oh, damn

― Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:57 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah, this is a good point -- i was definitely a big overthinking nerd about music even when i listened exclusively to grunge and pop rap and classic rock.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

although tbh my tastes haven't advanced very far since then

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

Sorry, guys, please ignore my post. Scottpl said it better , "Where are the non-indie readers?" - and not the ones who read JazzTimes or Gramophone.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

But I'd guess that music crit is being kept alive by (and therefore populated by), as one of my colleagues said, the exact same people keeping record stores alive. Those are the diehards and the specialists and the people who care enough to buy product.

This kind of says it all for me, really. The "diehards" we're talking about here aren't buying indie singles or metal albums, or used vinyl, but. . . "product."

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

are you offended that that word makes the transaction sound all dirty and capitalist or something?

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

i'm worried that it's reducing an argument to an incomprehensible abstraction

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

anyway i disagree w/ that premise -- i'm betting the majority of the people sitting in front of their computers reading and writing about music all the time are the same ones constantly downloading leaks and never going to record stores. (xpost)

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

ppl weren't clear on what "product" covers?

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

ha, that's probably true xpost

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

another but important point to keep in mind is that there are only so many hours in the day, and if you work full time, esp. if you work somewhere where you can't really surf the internet, you have a really limited amount of absolutely "free" time to do whatever you want when you come home. so, out of the people who are music fans, most of them are going to want to spend that time downloading and listening to records rather than reading someone's analysis of those records, which seems healthy and sane. the people who are interested in criticism, esp. as anything beyond a buyer's guide, is always going to be a really small portion of even the hardcore music fan demographic, and most of those people are going to be other critics.

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

*another obvious but

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

Further to something o.nate (and sorta Scott) is saying: I think one reason a lot of written criticism is about "indie" or "underground" music is that for a long time writing was one of the main ways anyone could hear about that stuff, and that got wound into its whole culture. (E.g., zines -- because the music wasn't on the TV, the radio, etc.) When the internet came along, fans of niches had a lot more motivation to leap out and talk to one another than did people whose enthusiasms were already more in the common sphere. In the case of indie fans, they also had a history and vocabulary and toolkit for doing this through analytical writing like criticism, and on some level I think we're still very much seeing the effects of that. That REALLY doesn't mean they're more thoughtful about music than anyone else, just that writing/reading "thoughtful" stuff is maybe a bigger part of how they relate to music.

Of course, the same thing is sorta true of people who are really into, say, non-charting rap, which leads to the next thing: the way lots of indie fans learned to talk about music fits with our general idea of what constitutes informed, analytical, "proper" criticism. I worry less that the "critic" way of talking about music tends to correlate with liking particular music (people who all talk the same way are bound to have values in common), and worry more about making myself experience totally different ways of talking about music. This can be hard, because I'll freely admit that written, middlebrow criticism is the manner of talking about music that's the most fun and comfortable for me. But as a way of engaging with music, there's obviously nothing about it that's any more important than the chatter on the Hot 97 morning radio shows or among teenagers in comments boxes -- they're all just different spheres where people talk about music in different ways.

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

anyway i disagree w/ that premise -- i'm betting the majority of the people sitting in front of their computers reading and writing about music all the time are the same ones constantly downloading leaks and never going to record stores. (xpost)

― some dude, Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:06 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

uh leak dudes have been statistically proven to buy the most records at record stores

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think those studies are kinda flawed tbh.

(are leak dudes super into susan boyle and taylor swift?)

maura, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

was going to make a snarky post but realized it led to the idea that leak dudes are totes into the idea of boning Susan Boyle

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

that's quite the dream you are dreaming there, dan

maura, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

Isn't it possible that, like I said before, a lot of people used to get paid a lot of money to write a lot of words about things that in actual fact nobody wanted to read?

to nitpick, i don't think "a lot" of people ever made "a lot" of money. a handful made a living, maybe a bigger handful than do now, but even in the golden age (whenever it was) it was always, like you say, a niche pursuit for a small number of people. but all this roundabout of credit and influence and whatever still leaves me with a more fundamental question about why this sensibiilty, this consensus, now? i'm more curious about what it means that animal collective is "the best album of 2009" than who said it first. i think the vv essay is right in connecting it to wild things, just as whoever it was who said it was right to connect vampire weekend to wes anderson, but those are surface affiliations that still i think need some elucidation about what's going on there. at least, if you're the sort of niche weirdo who's interested in such things.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think a bit part of it is also cultural perception. Indie has becomed perceived to be "educated" music - like classical and jazz (which was once a populist form, but I digress). NPR is probably as big a part of this as P4k. It's music that makes you look smart if you like it. You won't be embarrassed if your coworkers or friends see "Stillness is the Move" on your Ipod, in fact you'd probably feel self-congratulatory, but you might be worried if they catch you singing along to "Whomp that Ass" or whatever.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

why the fuck would i ever care what my co-workers thought of my music, is the larger question i have for you

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

I will admit to caring a tiny bit about what my coworkers thought of my music after sharing my iTunes library when I realized that I had a copy of Mocky's "Fuck All Night" in there. Basically I like avoiding HR.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

that's kind of a different situation though--i mean, who really cares what is on your ipod? shouldn't we just like stuff and not worry about what other people think?

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

This is what you should do, yes, but when you start tying self-esteem to things you end up in very odd places.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

Like, for example, Animal Collective shows

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

Just to bring up a point I made earlier, I've been looking at the percentage of voters who voted for the #1 and #2 albums since 1990 -- there's a clear trend downwards in the 00's, most notably since 2005. That's also when Xgau mentioned the close finish between Kanye and MIA in his essay -- this was the first time in 20 years that the % of voters voting for the #1 album was less than 30% (possible exception was 1999 but I don't have a reliable number for how many voters participated that year).

Anyway, I think my theory that what's happening to P&J is not dissimilar to what's happening to the pop charts may be somewhat to blame for some of the conversation here -- the fact is that fewer people agreed on the top albums in the past five years than at any time in the past 20 years (I haven't gone further back than that). On average, nearly 39% of voters voted for the #1 album in the 90's, compared to 24% in the past 5 years. Likewise, the difference in percentage points between people who voted for the #1 and #2 album was 11 in the 90's and about 3 in the past five years. This means that the trend is away from consensus albums and a move toward the kind of mad rush that better characterized the remainder of the Top Ten than the top two (sometimes three) slots through the 90's.

It suggests to me (as do the charts) that putting a #1 in front of something doesn't really mean what it used to. Not a direct swipe at Vampire Weekend, mind.

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

does anyone have any sort of general idea how many people actually consume music criticism regularly? like, how many people actually click through and read the P&J essays or Stylus Decade essays or anything any of us here would consider well-written, generally high-quality music criticism? i have a distorted perception of the whole thing since the only people i regularly discuss music with on any sort of a serious level post here.

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

And I mean, it's not like there aren't drooling, barely literate indie rock fans either -- ever take a look at Stereogum?

Fixed.

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

haha

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

massive lols

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

consensus is definitely weaker than it used to be, but I don't think that in itself is necessarily a bad (or good) thing -- there's way more records now, so it's probably healthy that there's a longer tail in these polls now, and a more even slope when you break down the statistics

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

The "drooling, barely literate indie-rock fan" is totally a 00s discovery for me. Not like indie types in my formative years weren't sometimes elitist, chauvinistic, or reactionary, but usually they were congratulating themselves for being geeks or liking something obscure or weird. It's still new and fascinating to me to see people who just want stuff to sound like Band of Horses and find other music to be weird, pretentious, trying-too-hard, or whatever. (I guess maybe if I were slightly older I'd have met more 80s/90s rock traditionalists who were like that?)

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

To be fair, there were probably some indie dudes you/me/any of us knew in high school or whenever that were sensitive geeky souls in person, but if you put them in front of a computer and gave them a comments box to go nuts in, they'd say some pretty dumb shit.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Btw, I don't think this perception of indie as "educated" music is a healthy thing. It may be too late for indie to shake off the "educated" music pigeonhole, but probably the best thing for the continued vitality of the genre would be for it to go back to being slightly dangerous and disreputable again.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

ha nabisco, as someone who was an ardent industrial/EBM fan in high school, I absolutely encountered indie guys who found some music too weird to listen to

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, the more I think about it, my view's totally skewed: I'm sure there were plenty of trad-rock reactionaries in the 80s praising the Replacements or something in exactly the way we're talking about. I'm probably biased by growing up in small-ass places where anyone who liked anything remotely irregular was really conscious of it as a weird choice.

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

there have always been people who wanted a more modern version of classic rock to embrace. u2/rem/replacements/etc. something a little different, but not too different.

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

xposts, yeah I'm not really making much of a judgment one way or another. In fact, if it takes a smaller percentage of the voters to put something to the top, then simply finding more critics in a particular taste cluster [there should be a candy bar called "taste clusters"] will increase the chances of raising a given genre or non-indie fave up the charts more so than in the 90's/early 00's -- this might be what's happening with metal on the charts, maybe the only other clear "cluster" slightly out of sync with the P4K overlap.

One thing I can't seem to find are the stats on how many albums total have been mentioned in this time period. I'd bet that this number increases at about the same time that # of voters voting for a given #1 album decreases but I can't find the numbers beyond the past few years.

a coffee machine in an office (dabug), Thursday, 21 January 2010 20:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

well, Indie is, to be reductive, socially less about being an individual and more about fitting in than it was when we were young nabisco. I don't know that there is anything more sinister to it than "the internet exists" and all the attendant effects that had, but as we've said before I find a lot of truth your original thought. (at the same time, things that are weird and leftfield can gain a larger audience and don't seem as weird as they once would have)

xpot: Seward is right. A lot of the popular indie stuff is, like I said earlier, just a 2009 version of what used to be mainstream rock. The idea that critics like straightforward guitar rock with roots in classic rock or new wave is the norm; it's not new. That stuff just exists now outside of radio/tv-- there are few markets in old-school media circles for guitar music made by and for 20 and 30somethings-- so it's all lumnped under the meaningless big tent of "indie."

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hasn't "indie" just be defined by what it's not for the last five years? By audience rather than by genre, distribution, or label.

mh, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

this is why i support genuinely misanthropic bands like Clockcleaner because we need bands to break up this cuddle party

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

remember when underground bands had unrepentant assholes in them?

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

YES

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think an interesting thing about "indie" now vs. in the '90s or esp. '80s is how well-behaved it is. I mean look at the indie champions of '09 - they tend to be carefully constructed, technically accomplished, pretty melodic, and eager to please. This is a far cry from the former dominant forms of indie such as lo-fi, grunge, post-hardcore, noise, etc. This is not ironic, angry, shock-the-squares indie. This is indie your parents could appreciate (at least the effort, skill and sincerity that went into it, even if they still might think it sounds weird). Is this the death of irony, a generational sea change? It may help to explain its ability to crossover.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

i have to say, if i had to choose between old pazz & jop's john hiatt or steve earle love and new pitchfork/blog/whatever pazz & jop's vampire love, i'll take the vampires. (i probably have the same problems with the new fogeys that i did with the old ones. but its more probable that the new ones would turn me on to something i might enjoy. maybe.)

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

remember when underground bands had unrepentant assholes in them?

yeah, I still miss the original lineup of Parts & Labor too ;)

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

now it's like bands are all appreciative I'm at their show, like they want some sort of approval instead of narcissism and monetary gain alone

mh, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

what's wrong w/ cuddle parties guys :(

tylerw, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

i loved that last clockcleaner album. are they gonna put out a new one?

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

we need bands to break up this cuddle party

kinda happening: I don't think it's a coincidence that noise and some of the todd p punk has found inroads in the face of your sufjan/oberst/gibbard/murdoch types and/or the "indie hivemind" that the internet creates

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

some of the noise dudes are even nicer than the indie ones!

mh, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

ha, well, I don't mean the noise guys are assholes! Just that the music isn't as cozy and cuddly as so much of this decade's indie.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

might be what's happening with metal on the charts, maybe the only other clear "cluster" slightly out of sync with the P4K overlap

Yeah, but talk about a voting bloc which probably has no use for singles...

Indie is, to be reductive, socially less about being an individual and more about fitting in than it was when we were young

Indie has been about this for over a quarter century, as far as I can tell. (Actually, Frank Kogan wrote a lot in Why Music Sucks about indie/fanzine culture being a "lonely hearts club" in the mid '80s. So it's nothing new, at all.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

oh def, the internet has assuredly helped noize, but i'm just saying i wish there was some total jerks to break up this attitude of "I listen to indie rock because i'm enlightened and smart"

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

Actually, I think part of why we perceive critics as always loving "indie" is that our definition of the word itself has drifted closer and closer to just being "critically acclaimed" or "what critics / music geeks like" -- it's become a tautology. (It's sort of like when people say Pitchfork only covers music that's "indie-approved," but their definition of what's "indie-approved" is strongly influenced by what Pitchfork covers.)

I just posed this question somewhere else, but if I made a playlist somewhere that was, like ... LCD Soundsystem, Madlib, Solange Knowles, Santigold, Basement Jaxx, M.I.A., Annie, Gnarls Barkley, Janelle Monae, Brazilian Girls, Erykah Badu, Lupe Fiasco, Dizzee Rascal, Passion Pit, Chromeo, Of Montreal ... you know, what would you call this? "The sorts of acts critics like?" Indie-leaning or indie-approved? "Blog favorites?" A cross-section of similar sensibilities from a few different genres? I don't think there's a consensus answer to that question, which makes it hard to pick apart critical tastes from "indie" tastes from "blog/internet" tastes from genre distinctions . . .

(xpost - quick summary of something I've said before: I think the growing tension between "smart and serene" accessible indie-rock and the desire for weirder, rougher-around-the-edges stuff within that audience will hopefully make for some really interesting developments soon)

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

like our generation doesn't really have Gibby/Yow/Albini figures, our "noisy" bands are all meta-indie and play their muck-rock with the same nice guy zeal as Conor Bloberst

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah I remember when the guy from the Black Lips threatened to beat up the fag from Wavves as a real breath of fresh air, had been waiting years for someone to act like that big of a dick

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

what would you call this?

music?

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

Actually, Frank Kogan wrote a lot in Why Music Sucks about indie/fanzine culture being a "lonely hearts club" in the mid '80s. So it's nothing new, at all.

we were saying now it feels less like a sanctuary for otherwise psuedo-outsiders than it is a "fashionable" place to be in the first place. It's less ally sheedy and anthony michael hall and more molly ringwald and emilio estevez. and whiney wants more judd nelson.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

I just posed this question somewhere else, but if I made a playlist somewhere that was, like ... LCD Soundsystem, Madlib, Solange Knowles, Santigold, Basement Jaxx, M.I.A., Annie, Gnarls Barkley, Janelle Monae, Brazilian Girls, Erykah Badu, Lupe Fiasco, Dizzee Rascal, Passion Pit, Chromeo, Of Montreal ... you know, what would you call this?

"ILM playlist"

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

some dude, i mean, for real, if he didn't gay-bash him, i would totally get behind someone smacking wavves, tbh

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

OK, so politically correct thuggery.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

next time i'm in a band we'll have to arrange a bar fight and send out a press release about it

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

waka flocka was just shot, perhaps thats more up whiney's alley?

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

that one guy in crime mob raped a 12 year old girl

waka shame (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

guys, whiney is looking for jerks, not criminals

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

there's always Kanye

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

"oh def, the internet has assuredly helped noize, but i'm just saying i wish there was some total jerks to break up this attitude of "I listen to indie rock because i'm enlightened and smart"

i've always felt like this is why indie types have been flocking to metal so much over the last few years. they're sick of the button down sweater brian wilson cuddlefests. which is what indie rock has been handing them for the last 15 years.

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

patrick wolf threw a stool (or whatever?) at his drummer & is a notorious dick - but i think because he's gay ppl call him a diva

waka shame (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

i dunno, look at the last couple years of rolling non-indie punk threads, there's tons of cool shit that's not softserve going on. it just only exists in like the world of super small pressings, etc

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

punk/hardcore microverse exists year in year out pretty much unchanged though.

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

the thing is I don't think fans of fey wimpy indie or ugly nasty noisy indie are underserved, but there's not a lot of middle ground, bands that play loud aggressive music but still write solid pop songs (or maybe there are and I haven't heard them, but I'm thinking in the tradition of the Replacements or, like, Superchunk). or there are, but they're just not considered part of the indie clubhouse anymore, which is why I find myself listening to a lot of super uncool stuff like Paramore and Fall Out Boy.

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

there's always Kanye

woooo!

mh, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

bands that play loud aggressive music but still write solid pop songs

this is why i <3 torche

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

people don't look for a way in to the hardcore nether regions past the age of 20 in most cases. but older nerds have definitely been looking for ways to crack metal codes and learn about the stuff and listen to things they never would have been listening to a couple years ago.

x-post

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

the thing is I don't think fans of fey wimpy indie or ugly nasty noisy indie are underserved, but there's not a lot of middle ground, bands that play loud aggressive music but still write solid pop songs (or maybe there are and I haven't heard them, but I'm thinking in the tradition of the Replacements or, like, Superchunk). or there are, but they're just not considered part of the indie clubhouse anymore, which is why I find myself listening to a lot of super uncool stuff like Paramore and Fall Out Boy.

I sort of feel like the commercial success of Green Day ushered all of those bands out of indie and directly into the mainstream.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

yeah skot but there's plenty of bands in those threads that, in the 90s, would have just been called indie rock before indie was strictly made for VW ads and pussies

also, i've been a fly on the wall on like everyone of these pazz and jop polls and every single one has been non stop bitching about how bad it was iirc

except that one year when matos organized a rebel alliance and did that other one and like three rap records placed higher than on pazz and jop and it was a paradigm shift or some shit

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

also xpost

man superchunk i fuckin' loved that band.

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

loud aggressive pop music that's critically allowed is just a subset of rap now, tbh

mh, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

(Totally, Que, "music!" But my point is that when we talk about taste categories like genres, or "what critics tend to like," or "what indie fans listen to," it's REALLY slippery -- it's easy to come up with perfectly coherent clusters of taste that confuse all those distinctions and divisions. Like I'm sure there are some people who'd describe those acts as "critic's darlings" and others who'd describe them as "indie favorites" and others who'd say that's, like, some pop acts, some dance acts, some r&b acts, etc. So you have to be a little wary of claims like "critics always love X" if your definition of X is "things critics like," you know?)

scott s otm, btw, totally -- I mean lots of indie fans have very clearly skewed toward metal or noise or danceability as nice-guy indie-rock has gotten more mainstream and calcified, absolutely. this polarizing effect has opened up a middle ground, yes, and the good thing about it is that the center is wide open for something new, I think.

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

bands that play loud aggressive music but still write solid pop songs

No Age!

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean even stuff that seemed kinda twee back in the day like beat happening and unrest seems like serious real talk compared to all these fleet foxes etc

bands that play loud aggressive music but still write solid pop songs AND HAD GOOD DRUMMERS

No Age!

― I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:33 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

glad pining for macho attitiude arrived on this thread--didn't even need a chuck post!

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

But my point is that when we talk about taste categories like genres, or "what critics tend to like," or "what indie fans listen to," it's REALLY slippery --

yah totally, i getchoo. and that's why i try to avoid any discussion about genres and stuff, i mean, who cares, really, except critics? i mean, isn't liking music enough sometimes?

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

all the nu lo fi shit is too damn rickety little engine that could and less jet plane takeoff

call all destroyer,

i don't consider superchunk or archers of loaf or jawbox super "macho"...shellac and JL and big black and amp rep yeah, but not what some dude was talking about (whiney was on some other shit)

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

how does the fader stay afloat? i mean i know they're funded by a promo company or w/e it is but... they still put out issues with lil boosie or busy signal or miles benjamin anthony on the cover

waka shame (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, superchunk! great band. and now the drummer from Superchunk is playing in a band that started out with a dude & his acoustic guitar & a boombox.

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

(and yeah he plays with other bands, too, but still.)

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, and there's 2 covers, and there's usually an indie rock band on the other cover xpost

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

serious question: how did brokencyde/crabcore fare in the pazz and jopp poll?

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost

his true calling now is philly boy roy

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

also is crabcore = indie?

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

fader makes all their money doing a billion othr things, mag is just branding, doy

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah matt obv those first three you mentioned don't really fit that rubric and I don't see THAT much difference between them and a lot of stuff that is decried today. as for shellac, af

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

oops! as for shellac and amrep, I guess I just don't see a pressing need for that to come back

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah matt obv those first three you mentioned don't really fit that rubric and I don't see THAT much difference between them and a lot of stuff that is decried today. as for shellac, af

― call all destroyer, Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:42 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the difference is rocking IMO and drummers that hit hard, which means a lot to me

am rep had some good shit but lots of bad (god knows i lived in mpls in the 90s)

shellac never left! and i just saw arcwelder like 2 weeks ago

i miss some of it

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

the nu-pigfuck

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

^there ya go

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

Man, I've erased about three or four different posts about how I had no use for aggressive indie rawk in the '90s -- be it the Jesus Lizard or Archers of Loaf -- but I fear I'm just being dismissive.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

except that one year when matos organized a rebel alliance and did that other one and like three rap records placed higher than on pazz and jop and it was a paradigm shift or some shit

hahahaha I fucking wish

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

c'mon DUDE

*blasts "smallpox champion"*

*rocks out*

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

FYI, from the Awl: "People on the Internet Like to Argue About Music More Than They Like to Enjoy Music": Maura Johnston and Seth Colter Walls on Genre, 2009 and Pazz + Jop"

http://www.theawl.com/2010/01/people-on-the-internet-like-to-argue-about-music-more-than-they-like-to-enjoy-music-maura-johnston-and-seth-colter-walls-on-genre-2009-and-pazz-jop

kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

(smallpox champion to jaymc)

(also matos just goofing come back to city pages they need u like a mutha, k thx!)

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

pining for macho attitiude arrived on this thread--didn't even need a chuck post!

Ha ha I thought Superchunk sounded pretty wussy back in the early '90s (and Torche are way too Foo Fighters for me), so I'll stay out of this.

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

but wait i'm enjoying music while i argue about music! i can do two and even sometimes three things at once.

scott seward, Thursday, 21 January 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp But anyway, people should really check out Meercaz and Okie Dokie, who I namedropped in a Pazz & Jop essay once. (And I still think Red Swan and Drunk Horse might've made my favorite indie rock albums of the '00s, but I'm weird.)

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

Not that I'm unproud of the polls I did (not that you can fucking FIND them anymore, thanks a lot Gawker Media/Buzznet), but the differences weren't especially big between them and P&J, results-wise. Though they did exist, as I've talked about on other threads. Nevertheless, my dreams of an alternative poll with a big list of voters + a rather different p.o.v. didn't exactly come to pass. Harvilla and Baron do good work, esp. this year, under the drastically reduced circumstances (meaning manpower) at the Voice compared to when I'd come in and count ballots in '02-'03. (The biggest reason I stopped after two was that I had almost literally no help.) Which is why I just shake my head and chuckle sadly about all the "Let's change the whole thing!" posts I see here. Good luck. (mega xposts)

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp Not counting the Gore Gore Girls obv

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

(Stopped after two Idolator polls, not counting-ballots-at-the-Voice, just in case that was unclear.)

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

i did see drink horse play once; they kicked ass. superchunk never seemed to really rock hard to me, tho i never investigated them thoroughly

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

(smallpox champion to jaymc)

Haha. Actually, I've never minded Fugazi too much. Liked their last two albums quite a bit, in fact -- although that's mostly because they felt more expansive and moody and musically varied than the earlier stuff.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

smallpox champion is a jam and a half btw

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:06 (seven years ago) Permalink

superchunk never seemed to really rock hard to me, tho i never investigated them thoroughly

their records from foolish on are more restrained than the first few, but live they always stepped on the gas real hard

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Also, fwiw, my favorite album of 2009 was probably Dananananaykroyd's Hey Everybody!, and that sounds an awful lot like Fugazi in places. Sometimes it surprises me how much I like it, actually, considering there's actual screaming on the album -- but there's also big melodies and infectious jazzy guitar riffs.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

i've been on a bit of chavez kick lately

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

xp And who knows, maybe I also like it in part because I'm not listening to a whole lot else like it. Maybe I'd like the Future of the Left album, too, if I weren't scared by it.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

Harvilla and Baron do good work, esp. this year, under the drastically reduced circumstances (meaning manpower)

I agree, but damn do I wish I had Glenn McDonald to help me out when I was there. As far as I can tell, he does the work of 20 interns in a tenth of the time!

xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ha, I bought a Chavez album in 1996 or '97 and sold it like a week later.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

Glenn rules
xp

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

wait you're scared of music jaymc?

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

i would probably check out Dananananaykroyd based on jaymc's description if i wasn't scared of indie bands with stupid names that riff on the names of celebrities

some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm being facetious, Que. Some aggressive rock music is a little too much for me, though.

I felt that way sometimes in the mid-90s as I first navigated the waters of indie rock. I was a big fan of Pavement and Sonic Youth, but I didn't really feel at home in the world of indie until I got into stuff like Stereolab and Tortoise.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

weirdly enough i saw doug mcoombs from tortoise playing bass for red eyed legends, which is the new band of chris thompson from skull kontrol/monorchid so the opposing forces are actually bros IRL

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, he's in Eleventh Dream Day, too.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

And v. much a bro in his own right. I see him at random shows all the time, or at least I did when I used to go to shows.

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

I wouldn't equate being slightly dangerous and disreputable with being loud and aggressive. There are lots of ways to challenge conventional mores.

o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

When I was at school some of my friends and i used to talk in very music crit terms about, like, the new kylie single or the new janet jackson album or whatev, though I wasn't in some kind of non-indie bubble, i was also consuming a lot of that stuff (admittedly more the 80s UK variant). We weren't reading any music press at that stage (those same friends still don't really, and still talk about kylie etc. in pretty much the same terms), I think we were just picking up on modes of thinking about music that was like a middle ground between generalist pop culture consumption and the kind of "close reading" we were told to undertake in literature classes.

I sort of think that the opposition between "people interested in music crit" and "drooling masses" ignores the fact that a lot of people are like my high school friends. They never really got into capital letter music crit because they do the same thing on an ad hoc, casual basis amongst themselves - analysing a new pop album to death while being indifferent to published reviews of that album.

I don't think there's an organic connection between indie and the form of what we consider to be capital letter Music Crit, but more to the point I don't think that this form of thinking about music is a total construction either, a straightforward consequence of being immersed in (usually indie friendly) rock crit which has set up its own standards for how one approaches music. Certainly to an extent it is, but a lot of people who don't read music crit at all will talk in very similar terms about music they like if you start a discussion with them. The distinction my anecdote above points to (and it's not the only possible distinction, but maybe it's a relatively important one) is that indie and music crit are so mutually dependent that the one almost necessitates the other, it would be highly unusual to find someone who owned all the GAPDY albums but wasn't a big consumer of music crit; whereas fans of other genres might be just as critical in their thoughts and discussions about music while being disinterested in the music crit industry per se - they can like Kylie and become "critical" in their assessment of her music without the necessary intervention or assistance of consuming published music criticism.

Tim F, Thursday, 21 January 2010 22:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

i mean also:

http://www.villagevoice.com/2009-12-22/music/the-decade-in-music-genre-hype/

maybe you could just file "indie nerdball interest in pop music" under 2001-2008

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah tim's post is important, i think it needs to be said that R&B definitely has its own discourse going on, and living in a city like chicago its actually a pretty vibrant & in-depth one -- its just that it definitely tends to center more around record store employees & DJs & radio than written crit -- & presumably music message boards, etc. lots of people are having these conversations, "oh that track is a classic" "i always thought that song was overrated" "remember when DJ xyz used to play it at venue zyx" -- really the level of discourse is pretty much the same. Im not really convinced that a website that focuses on criticism couldnt surround other genres. it might not be as big as pfork, where you have this kind of unified alternative flag.

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

didn't you sort of answer your own ? though there deej? Chuck (via Frank), nabisco, and others have also pointed out elements of what you're saying here: Indie was historically less real-world social, with a lot of people gathering around the music or broadcasting their opinions about it via alternative forms of communication-- college radio/zines/blogs/etc-- because they had to both construct an alternate system for communicating about the music and, often, had to look outside of their communities in order to find ppl to talk to. Something like R&B, which is more social in the first place, seems like it would function the way you and Tim describe it, and as a result there isn't a historical relationship between (self-)published conversation and the music.

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

would be interesting to see if more R&B/pop crit can develop now that a lot of the better artists there are as niche as anything else. It's almost like there is more need for it now than ever

scottpl, Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

one of the tensions that has always existed in rap writing (& for me an important one) is that a lot of the ppl who would write about rap were not always intersecting w/ the social/communal critical communities in rap, and a lot of the conflicts w/r/t the genre on the internet are related to these conflicting discourses -- especially now that there is a strong (if niche) critical community around hip hop that is entirely divorced from for example my high school experiences

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

hahah matt Chavez is basically my favorite band ever

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

drive like jehu rules too

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 21 January 2010 23:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

oh god yes

call all destroyer, Friday, 22 January 2010 00:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I think what I was trying to say is similar, in some ways, to what Tim's saying. The distinction's not between "people who read/write criticism" and "unwashed masses of fans." It's between people who are accustomed to engaging with music via reviews and analytical essays, and people who are accustomed to dealing with music via conversations, DJs, radio chatter, conversations in stores, tabloid magazines, different kinds of blogs and comment boxes and message boards, TV coverage, etc. All those conversations can take place at different levels of thoughtfulness, using different types of language, with different assumptions. And different types of music will be over- or under-represented in any one of those spheres.

So when someone tells me that Criticism should encompass more different kinds of music, I think "yes, totally," and then I think, "well, it already would, if what we thought of as Criticism wasn't just middlebrow analytical writing, and included all those other things from the get-go."

(Obviously it'd be difficult for P&J to rope in voters from among, like, "this guy who has great conversations about music with his friends," but just as an example: what might it look like if you asked a bunch of radio DJs?)

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Friday, 22 January 2010 00:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

Drive Like Jehu dudes were in the band Pitchfork, so it all comes full circle.

Disco Stfu (Raw Patrick), Friday, 22 January 2010 00:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

haha

you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 22 January 2010 00:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

Matos: Here, for some consolation, is my 2006 collation of the two polls, and the even more detailed 2007 version. I have all the album votes from 2007, at least, and I think I actually have all the whole ballots from 2006...

glenn mcdonald, Friday, 22 January 2010 03:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

one of the tensions that has always existed in rap writing (& for me an important one) is that a lot of the ppl who would write about rap were not always intersecting w/ the social/communal critical communities in rap, and a lot of the conflicts w/r/t the genre on the internet are related to these conflicting discourses -- especially now that there is a strong (if niche) critical community around hip hop that is entirely divorced from for example my high school experiences

This something that seems so blindingly obvious to me (in a good way, deej), and is a big part of why I'm so hesitant to get involved in rap crit compared to say, R&B crit (apart from the more prosaic issue being that i'm great at remembering song lyrics and bad at remembering rap lyrics, and this means I find it hard to say anything interesting or original about the latter). Do you think that it is or should be a similar issue-for-consideration for R&B? i.e. are their social/critical communities in R&B that are being ignored when people like say me write about it, and is this a problem?

I know that in the case of dance music I'd say that there are certain life-factors that I would point to when judging someone's capacity to engage with the music. But it's complicated. I feel I'm in a position to talk about UK Funky, say, despite obviously never having physically engaged with the community, but only because of the presence of a whole host of vitiating factors.

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 03:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think most R&B, even at its most modern and hip hop-influenced, generally follows such a long and universal tradition of popular songwriting that there's probably not nearly as many possible blind spots for people who don't have a foothold in its typical social environment. feels kinda like you can get all the context you need to know from the songs and videos etc., which definitely isn't the case with rap.

some dude, Friday, 22 January 2010 03:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah that's been my general assumption - but this is the kind of thing where people make assumptions that are convenient to them so I'm interested as to whether anyone thinks differently.

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 04:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

This recent discussion gets at one thing that's always been a little weird for me about being on ILM: I've tended to be more in the: "people who are accustomed to dealing with music via conversations, DJs, radio chatter, conversations in stores, tabloid magazines [well, not tabloid magazines], different kinds of blogs and comment boxes and message boards, TV coverage, etc." category. I can't say I've never read any magazines or books related to music, but it's been minimal compared to most of you (I think--most of you most active on this thread anyway), and it's never been a really primary source. I did consciously start buying music magazines (generally Option or the Wire, or things along those lines) more when the college radio station I had relied on the most for exposure to unfamiliar music drastically switched its format. It wasn't an adequate substitute though, and it's kind of interesting that after that point, involvement with dancing (+ conversation, I suppose) become a more crucial source for listening leads than radio.

_Rudipherous_, Friday, 22 January 2010 04:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

isn't it a little limiting to talk about a "typical social environment" for hip-hop, or anything? people listen to it in lots of different environments, and it can be potentially interesting to consider it critically from any of those vantage points. i mean, american film critics write about asian films all the time, and in reading them you just implicitly take into account that it's an outsider's perspective. i have a lot of southern friends who hate modern commercial country music and wouldn't feel all that kindly to a bunch of yankee intellectuals telling them how great brad paisley is, but that doesn't mean christgau or whoever shouldn't write about it.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 04:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah i mean one of the funny things about hip hop is that an 'authentic position' on it is whatever position happens to be honest & true to your experience of it. So the problem becomes less about expressing your own enjoyment & more one of awareness & self-consciousness about imposing your own narratives as superior ones. which is what the 'pressing arguments of the day' on rap blogs have been about lately, i.e. noz's reaction to passion of the weiss' freddie gibbs piece. & certainly the 'backlash' to stuff that was written about gucci was a strong example of ppl taking the same position im arguing here, but in a way that i believe misidentifies the 'problem' or does so in a way that is problematic in other ways

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Friday, 22 January 2010 05:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think the question of ownership is an interesting one and yeah can definitely be written about intelligently from opposing perspectives. as a sort of perennial outsider to any and all scenes, i'm sympathetic to the "this belongs to me because it means something to me" view, but i'm also respectful of the "this belongs to me because it came from where i'm from" view. (tho of course even claiming it on those grounds gets complicated once you get very far outside particular geographic or cultural boundaries.) and with hip-hop especially, the music itself has always been such a voracious consumer of any sounds that stray across its borders from anywhere, there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in any claims on propriety. live by the sample, die by the sample. (not that hip-hop is historically unique in that kind of rapid assimilation and regurgitation of influences, it's just always been more explicit about it.)

and maybe, spinning back toward indie, part of the problem (if it is a problem) with indie is the sort of lack of engagement outside its own boundaries, or at least perceived lack of engagement. i think the discomfort a lot of people feel looking at the p/j list is a sense of insularity both within the music and the fanbase. who exactly is animal collective reaching out to or interacting with? i have no idea. to me listening to them feels a little like looking into a hermetically sealed goldfish bowl. which probably isn't fair because there must be animal collective fans out there for whom that music feels like some kind of lifeline from a distant place, the way college radio felt to me in my 1980s suburbs. i can believe that anco or dirty projectors or whoever mean something, signify something, i just have a hard time getting a handle on it. and very little of the appreciation i've read of that music gives me any sense of that either. i really don't like vampire weekend, but if they have a #1 album it must be engaging and interacting at a level that goes beyond the cognoscent-consensus, just like hip-hop and country and susan boyle do, and getting any kind of real feel for that would tell me a lot more about the music.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 05:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think Animal Collective are reaching out to some extent - all of the people I know IRL who love the most recent album are more dance music (particularly dubstep/post-dubstep! Which I always enjoy telling lex) plus the occasional indie record types rather than dyed in the wool indie types, and the terms in which they talk about the music are roughly comparable to the terms that equivalents would have used to talk about, say, Spiritualized in the late 90s.

(none of my friends who I would call lifelong indie types (about 5 or so) like it - they've all become too invested in "organic" sounding music I suspect, and would much rather listen to Bon Iver or something. At least one of them likes Grizzly Bear though, I suspect the others do or would too)

I mean you can hate the record and say it fails on every conceivable level and even decry its intentions, but I think it's pretty clearly not proferring a hermetically sealed notion of indie.

If anything this becomes the root cause of the problem you're referring to: the more promiscuous and obviously polysemous indie becomes stylistically (and I think AnCo/Dirty Projectors/Vampire Weekend are all part of this trend), the less people are likely to feel self-conscious about indie dominating their listening habits to the exclusion of other genres (this is the secret implication of Reynolds' recent defence of modern indie I think: "now that indie is firing again it's okay to ignore other music once more").

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 06:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

roughly comparable to the terms that equivalents would have used to talk about, say, Spiritualized in the late 90s

Hmm, this brings up a memory that around the time that Spz (and Verve) were all the popular rage in 1997, some writer -- ha, maybe even Simon R. -- offered up the idea that based on his experience the biggest fans were dance freaks who were needing something to 'chill' to after spending most of the decade in techno.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 22 January 2010 06:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, that certainly seems to be the impulse going on when Dirty Projectors do a vaguely R&B-ish song that critics feel comfortable calling the best R&B song of the year instead of trying to figure out what song might fit that definition a little better. (xpost)

stupidities and swagga beefs of the fruity class (some dude), Friday, 22 January 2010 06:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

Hmm, this brings up a memory that around the time that Spz (and Verve) were all the popular rage in 1997, some writer -- ha, maybe even Simon R. -- offered up the idea that based on his experience the biggest fans were dance freaks who were needing something to 'chill' to after spending most of the decade in techno.

Exactly!

And to turn the screw further, I think the other thing going on here is that - classifications and particular sonic differences aside - these indie artists "feel" close to current dance music as much because the current dance music they feel close to also feels very indie (in the same way that Spiritualized and The Verve didn't need a guest spot or remix to seem close to The Chemical Bros, who were pushing a comparable vibe only as "dance music").

Deej spot on when he says on his tumblr:

For example, the widely-praised FACT magazine list was seen as a fresh aesthetic look because it seemed to hold a different canon than Pitchfork’s. When I look at that list though, it really seems to celebrate a lot of the same critical values of ‘worthiness’ that Pitchfork does, just shifts a bit away from indie based around a certain aesthetic & moves it into a post-rave/IDM nerd version — but with extremely similar value judgments about ‘worthiness’ & a lot of the same gender & cultural biases around that.

Despite the seeming disparity between "Pitchfork Indie" and what is celebrated in dance music at the moment, the overall vibe of these musics, and the tone of the writing about them, is almost indistinguishable.

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 07:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

If anything this becomes the root cause of the problem you're referring to: the more promiscuous and obviously polysemous indie becomes stylistically (and I think AnCo/Dirty Projectors/Vampire Weekend are all part of this trend), the less people are likely to feel self-conscious about indie dominating their listening habits to the exclusion of other genres

but then how is that not hermetically sealed? or at least constricted? what i mean about reaching out and engaging is, is animal collective unexpectedly intersecting with people's lives in the way that what we (or i) think of as "pop music" does? in a way that could justify anyone calling "my girls" a single-of-the-year? maybe they are, i don't know. but if they are, i certainly don't know it from anything i've read about them, critically speaking. which is the thing, the criticism tends to be sealed off too. it engages with the music, but not with how or whether the music engages with anything outside of its own hipster-runoff universe. if there are 20-something paralegals in omaha getting turned onto mpp at some 4th-of-july cookout, i'd like to know about it, but there's no sense of that at all in how the music is presented or considered, as far as i can tell.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 07:14 (seven years ago) Permalink

Perhaps what we're seeing the real "triumph of..." over time is not some specific notion of indie but just indie values across the board, only now so finely and carefully massaged into every crevice and wrinkle that it's not even obvious any more. "The indie version of dance" is no longer just IDM and its equivalents but an entire mode of approaching dance music that seeks, like indie perspectives, to celebrate a certain model of educated aesthetic individualism*, such that, near paradoxically, even music designed specifically for the dancefloor gets framed in these terms.

* Of course these are also techno values - but, if you'll allow me to be glib for a moment, techno was always already the first indie manifestation in dance music. Which is why this "takeover" has been so subtle and so successful.

but then how is that not hermetically sealed? or at least constricted? what i mean about reaching out and engaging is, is animal collective unexpectedly intersecting with people's lives in the way that what we (or i) think of as "pop music" does? in a way that could justify anyone calling "my girls" a single-of-the-year? maybe they are, i don't know. but if they are, i certainly don't know it from anything i've read about them, critically speaking. which is the thing, the criticism tends to be sealed off too. it engages with the music, but not with how or whether the music engages with anything outside of its own hipster-runoff universe. if there are 20-something paralegals in omaha getting turned onto mpp at some 4th-of-july cookout, i'd like to know about it, but there's no sense of that at all in how the music is presented or considered, as far as i can tell.

Tipsy, what music crit are you comparing this to??? What music crit about which music would make me think "gee, 20-something paralegals in omaha are getting into this and this makes me feel like I click with them and understand what they feel" - or even some non-joking version of same...

If all you mean to say is: "nothing I've read about Animal Collective suggest that they're being enjoyed by people not predisposed to like indie music". If so, well, duh. For the most part music that "unexpectedly" intersects with people's lives tends to do so in a way that reinforces their prejudices rather than breaks them down - see "Hey Ya".

Also I and I suspect most AnCo fans probably have never read HipsterRunoff. I have a vague notion of what it is but I think you really mean "anything outside of its own mainstream music press universe."

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 07:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

I was a 20 something paralegal in Australia in 2006 when I started getting into this band, if that helps you to feel more in touch with the wider world at all. I believe it was watching Shortbus that won me over!

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 07:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ha, I was a 30-something paralegal in Richmond, Virginia, when I started listening to Animal Collective.

Mark, Friday, 22 January 2010 07:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's funny watching AC haters frothing at the mouth isn't it? They can't help it, their loathing is so visceral, such an uncontrollable gut aversion to the sound: its maculate, confusional qualities seem to be intolerable, a real affront to sensibility--the way the music mixes levels, categories, registers like so much spin art (or more apposite in this case, like tie-dye). Yet there also seems to be a principled aspect to the revulsion, a real concordance of aesthetics and ideology, taste and social allegiance. It reminds me a bit of those people in the UK who hate hate HATE crusties, on principle, which really means squeamishness sublimated, elevated with a gloss of quasi-pro-workerist indignation ("bloody trustifarians", "soap-dodging layabouts" etc). In the UK that often seems based in the mod thing of "clean living in difficult circumstances" and the accompanying sharp, clear sound-aesthetic; the ressentiment the lower middle class are structurally led to feel towards that fraction of the upper middle class who aspire downwards, who step off the career track. See also attitudes to psy-trance and (most relevant to AC-disgust) jam bands. It's not quite the same in America, where there isn't really an equivalent to the mod stratum in society. But something similar is going on. You just think "why not funnel your hate towards something actually... hate-worthy?". Of course anybody's entitled to simply not like the records, but there does seem to be something more going on a lot of the time, like it's one of those instances where aesthetics and ideology, sonics and the social, conjoin very tightly. Judging by the intensity, the virulence, of the anti-reactions...

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Friday, 22 January 2010 07:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

The chuck eddy essay is the most annoying thing I've ever read. So if Brad Paisley, kid sister and Lady Gaga were in the final top 10 you'd feel better about the state of music?!?! For a change it's nice to see artists that DON'T sell millions of records top the poll, if you want to see rich people who sell millions of records and put out mediorcre albums, watch the grammy's. You'll be surely happy there....

Emily's Cheese, Friday, 22 January 2010 08:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

ok, kid sister doesn't sell millions, but she sucks nevertheless

Emily's Cheese, Friday, 22 January 2010 09:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

Speaking of the Grammys, was a DMB album really nominated for Best Album of the Year? What's up with that?

Mordy, Friday, 22 January 2010 09:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's funny watching AC haters frothing at the mouth isn't it?

I don't ever really feel hatred of music any more, if I ever did (and always it's been more a dislike of certain types of fandom/criticism - e.g. I was very annoyed back in 2000 when all my friends loved Travis but I was indifferent to Travis mostly and even rather liked a song or two), so I simply don't understand that kind of froth reaction and, for that reason, vaguely respect it (what annoys me rather is when I see people let their hatred of stuff cloud their vision and their logic, leading them to say stuff the obvious wrongness of which they would jump all over otherwise).

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 09:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

re: singles - i like that these polls are open to "tracks", just because a track can so often function as a single without ever getting an official release as one. voting for deep album cuts if they don't make sense in isolation is missing the point though, yeah. contra jaymc i don't trust artists or record labels to pick the right singles in the slightest - though i think indie acts are actually way better at this than r&b or pop acts these days, weirdly.

I think a bit part of it is also cultural perception. Indie has becomed perceived to be "educated" music

think this is otm, sadly.

good thread to catch up on!

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 22 January 2010 11:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

For a change it's nice to see artists that DON'T sell millions of records top the poll, if you want to see rich people who sell millions of records and put out mediorcre albums, watch the grammy's. You'll be surely happy there....

ah youth

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 January 2010 12:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

What music crit about which music would make me think "gee, 20-something paralegals in omaha are getting into this and this makes me feel like I click with them and understand what they feel" - or even some non-joking version of same...

what i mean -- and this is a phenomenon of the internet, which i think is what "pitchfork" is really being used as a stand-in for here -- is that a lot of this music seems exist almost in some virtual realm. the indieverse. it moves from myspace pages to small music blogs to big music blogs to pitchfork or whatever (passing through ILM and such places on the way), achieving a sense of ubiquity and significance within a densely connected but actually relatively limited sphere, and an awful lot of the writing about it doesn't manage to look very far outside that sphere. (neither does a lot of the music, for that matter.) you could argue that this is all just a digital version of the college radio-zines-clubs world of our band could be your life, and obviously it serves a lot of the same purposes (including helping bands find living-room floors to crash on), but there's a step of removal from the "real" world that i think has a real and insulating (and in a lot of ways deadening) effect on how the music is received and talked about.

and btw i like a good handful of animal collective albums, just not the awful cluttered overstuffed recent ones. which is neither here nor there, i don't care that i don't like mpp, i'd just like to read more considerations of it that give some sense of its cultural location outside of six blogs.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 13:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

animal collective is that band i saw twiddling dials at south street seaport with people standing around distractedly, yapping into their phones? That's the animal collective that's causing all this commotion? OK, there were a dozen people up front feigning enthusiasm. Maybe they write all the reviews.

Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 January 2010 13:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ha, I was a 30-something paralegal in Richmond, Virginia, when I started listening to Animal Collective.

to complete the loop, our publisher was a 20something from Omaha when he started listening to AnCo. chris k + mark r = that comment.

there's a step of removal from the "real" world that i think has a real and insulating (and in a lot of ways deadening) effect on how the music is received and talked about.

I ask again, to anyone: What don't we cover that is so great in the real world? Is it John Mayer? Is it BEP? What are we missing that is so good that appeals to "the real world"?

One thing your comment does highlight however Tipsy is how hermetically sealed off part of the real world are. Williamsburg/Greenpoint is like a freakin' snowglobe, and here in North Chicago-- and in college towns, hoods in large U.S. cities-- the stuff in bars, cafes, shops, boutiques, restaurants that is played is "stuff Pitchfork covers" whether it's Spoon or AnCo or Kanye or Lily Allen or Grizzly Bear. Or classic rock. One of the two, and that's it. This IS our real world.

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 13:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

look at it another way:

There are a few big, decent superstars around-- beyonce, rihanna, jay-z, kanye, gaga-- i.e. they are also the superstars we cover, i.e. the ones that make our year-end lists, i.e. the ones everyone likes.

Then subtract the obvious dreck from the charts, the real crap.

The next biggest-selling pocket of music left would be cult or established hip-hop/R&B acts - rae, cudi, mos def, maxwell, which we cover. And make our year-end lists.

And next, I would guess is...top-tier indie-- Neko, Phoenix, VW, Spoon, AnCo, A Bird, Grizzly Bear, which is selling between 150-500k basically, a pretty solid 'real world' return these days

What else is there in the real world? What is selling more than 200K that Pitchfork a) doesn't cover and put into year-end lists, and b) is good?

As I've said before I don't think we're an indie mag, we're an independently run general music mag. And rock is as large a part of our pie chart as it was for other general music mags. The difference is that rock-as-marketing-term is indie these days, if only by default. In another day a lot of these bands would be on Sire or Columbia and just be called rock bands.

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 14:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

"I don't ever really feel hatred of music any more… so I simply don't understand that kind of froth reaction and, for that reason, vaguely respect it."

So true. I've used up all my hatred on more deserving targets. Whereas a film, like Taken, can still enrage me for reasons which click with things that enrage me in the real world, the most I can muster with records now is "I don't get it."

Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

I, for one, would laugh my ass off at a Ke$hastravaganza in Pitchfork.

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

well that's an interesting way of putting it, and i think it reflects some of what i'm talking about: that it is possible at least some places to consume and consider all of this stuff in a limited virtual realm, and then to go "out" mostly to bars/clubs/thrift stores/etc that serve as basically an extension of the same realm. and yes of course there's always an insularity to any scene or genre or whatever, but i think the internet (and in the case of "indie" in particular) has given that a new dimension.

What don't we cover that is so great in the real world? Is it John Mayer? Is it BEP?

sure, why not? i think there's plenty of interesting things that could be said about either of them. ("covering" =/= "liking" or "approving of.") but even just within the parameters of GAPDY, i think there's a lot of other ways to write about it than the ways it tends to get written about (anywhere, this isn't by any means a pitchfork-specific issue). like i said, i have very little sense of what it means that mpp is the "best album of the year." the voice essay goes a little way there by hooking it up to spike jonze, but settles for a sort of vague psychological gloss -- "coming to terms with being an adult" -- that doesn't say anything very specific about the culture and sensibility that produced both works. why does mpp sound like it does? what does that sound mean? what does the indie arrested-development sensibility of the past 15 years or so signify about the economic situation of the american middle class? i think there's a connection between animal collective, a flat wage curve and 10 percent unemployment, but the music rarely seems to be talked about in any terms outside its own aesthetic. and i think it's hard to consider that aesthetic in any really insightful way from the inside.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

(oops, that needs an xpost -- the first part of that post was coming off of "This IS our real world.")

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

That's an interesting thought. Some albums are so much easier to hang sociopolitical significance on, hence endless essays on how MIA reflects The Way We Live Now, or what [fill in major 00s indie album here] tells us about 9/11. But MPP comes from the same cloistered psychedelic universe as, say, The Soft Bulletin and that's harder to analyse outside of its own terms. I don't know enough about the US middle class to know if your hypothesis is right but it sounds worth exploring.

Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

scottpl, you're pretty much begging for a list thread of great records and contemporary artists that PF has never covered. and it would be a very, very long list.

stupidities and swagga beefs of the fruity class (some dude), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

don't get me wrong, PF covers a whole lot of music of a pretty wide range, but saying that there's no worthwhile non-indie you don't cover is like people who go "I listen to every genre, but only the good stuff."

stupidities and swagga beefs of the fruity class (some dude), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

What else is there in the real world? What is selling more than 200K that Pitchfork a) doesn't cover and put into year-end lists, and b) is good?

I'm not even going to get started here. (See, I do have self-control, after all.)

xhuxk, Friday, 22 January 2010 14:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

i don't get people who can't hate music passionately

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

i find bad music personally offensive, no hyperbole

لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

I never would have guessed!

^_^

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

I think my inability to feel hatred of music extends to art and books and films too actually. Everything exists on a continuum of "bored" to "passionately in love".

Tim F, Friday, 22 January 2010 14:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

A bad novel can still throw me into a rage - I guess because it's taken up more of my time, and a bad sentence is offensive whereas a bad lyric just strikes me as funny. A book or film can convey a whole worldview that I find aggravating in a way that a song can't.

But all power to you, Lex. It's bracing precisely because I don't share it.

Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

I sympathize with Lex. It's so fun to hate!

As scott no doubt remembers, what distinguished Stylus from its competition was taking Lee Ann Womack and Nickleback seriously. I couldn't predict how or if PFM's hit count would increase if it started reviewing these artists, but I'd like to see a publication with PFM's clout and its ratio of good writers seriously wrestle with lots of mainstream artists who sell bucketloads more than Vampire Weekend ever will.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

xuxhk, if i start the thread idea i mentioned, you'd fill it up, right? I'm counting on it (also what would be a fair timeframe, scott? since 2003? 2005?).

i'm not saying that Pitchfork SHOULD cover everything (or anything) that they don't already, obviously they need to make choices. but the implication that there's nothing good and popular that's escaped their notice is insane and needs to be challenged.

stupidities and swagga beefs of the fruity class (some dude), Friday, 22 January 2010 14:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

don't get me wrong, PF covers a whole lot of music of a pretty wide range, but saying that there's no worthwhile non-indie you don't cover is like people who go "I listen to every genre, but only the good stuff."

of course there is, but I didn't say that.

I was only specifically addressing popular artists. And I do think we could better with the sort of mixtape rap that gets around the sales I was thinking of, i.e. boosie, etc. we used to do a bit better there than we do

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'd like to see a publication with PFM's clout and its ratio of good writers seriously wrestle with lots of mainstream artists who sell bucketloads more than Vampire Weekend ever will.

Sure YOU do. But like I said upthread nobody cares. Not in any substantial numbers. The number of people hungry to read about Nickleback and Leann Womack the way you want them covered is miniscule. Hell, unless there are tons of them not adept at locating pockets of the internet that share their interests, you could probably name a lot of them.

It's the same reason we don't cover BEP, to answer Tipsy's question: Almost nobody cares about anything to do with them that isn't their music or their celebrity. And only two of them are even celebrities really. So it would be a waste of resources and manpower; it would be, for the most part, a dishonest engagement with them that only serves to tell our readers what they already knew by listening to their two godawful radio singles from the new lp; it would be us moving from being a publication that sets its own editorial agenda outside of the machinations of the music industry to one that covers shit just because it's popular (i.e. one that turns its back on its own principles/integrity/honesty).

A lot of the reasons may seem abhorrent to some people I guess, if you actually think the monied interests of the major labels and dollar votes should determine what you critically engage with, but I think setting our own agenda and maintaining a level of self-policed integrity/standards is working out OK for us.

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

it would be us moving from being a publication that sets its own editorial agenda outside of the machinations of the music industry to one that covers shit just because it's popular

Does anyone else immediately start looking for ways to deflate this type of statement whenever it is written?

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

I couldn't predict how or if PFM's hit count would increase if it started reviewing these artists

You really can't predict that?!? It would go down. Way the fuck down. Because nobody cares, and we'd be seen as another bullshit corporate magazine that just covers what is popular solely because it's popular. Are there any music media outlets of any note that give a shit about Nickelback? So why would you think that's some kind of food for hitcounts?

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

and we'd be seen as another bullshit corporate magazine that just covers what is popular solely because it's popular

dude, hate to break this to you, but your decade in music piece was sponsored by an ice cream company

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

not really the same thing

mdskltr (blueski), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

i was talking about the corporate part

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

I don't see how having advertisers is the same thing as being independently owned and being willing to ignore platinum artists and cover niche artists. Nobody is denying we are a small business.

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

scott the part you quoted was a comparison, not me interpreting your words to mean just that. but seriously, name your terms for my thread, just so I can be fair about it: over 200k sales, in the past how many years?

stupidities and swagga beefs of the fruity class (some dude), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:19 (seven years ago) Permalink

2005-, and I think I said over 200K sales, didn't make a year-end list (miranda lambert did btw) or get reviewed.

I bet I agree with most of them too. No doubt we miss things. Actually most of them will be regional hip-hop artists plus whatever some people here want to cover in Alfred's Nickleback Contrarian Daily magazine. ;)

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

I sympathize with Lex. It's so fun to hate!

And I know the first thing you thought of as a reference point too. (Just like I did.)

A peek into the past: Neil Tennant on the power of hate

Ned Raggett, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

Alfred's Nickleback Contrarian Daily

Any ideas for which advertisers I should hit?

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

ben and jerry's

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

^^indie rock of the ice cream world

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

Any ideas for which advertisers I should hit?

You'd have to ask business not editorial, but I do know you'll need readers first.

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

The number of people hungry to read about Nickleback and Leann Womack the way you want them covered is miniscule.

Unless "on Pitchfork" is inserted somewhere in that sentence, no, that is not true.

Andy K, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

I will tell you where I would hope to find an intelligent, critical, well-written article on Nickelback, why they're big, who likes 'em etc: a newspaper or something like the New Yorker. Or Rolling Stone even! Or Salon! Pitchfork shouldn't be expected to cover everything just because long-form generalist writing has collapsed elsewhere, surely?

I do think P4K should have reviewed "The E.N.D." but then I liked both the singles a lot. And obviously I didn't think so strongly enough to pitch it or anything!

Groke, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

wasn't there an article about re-evaluating nickelback on slate or something and it was pretty much retarded?

call all destroyer, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

I could see that for an aggregator like allmusic (esp one w/factual and biographical info; one who reputation isn't built on what it covers), but I think Alfred is talking a pub that works more as a filter. And I don't think I could name any of those covering Nickleback with any degree of success.

scottpl, Friday, 22 January 2010 15:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

It's weird to claim that excellent writers tackling major artists would be a turn-off. I don't know if P4K covered the Brad Paisley album - and it's not my cup of tea at all - but the way Jody Rosen writes about it on Slate is eye-opening and compelling, and I can't see why there wouldn't be room for that anywhere. Obviously you'd have to be selective but come on, there's great stuff to be written about the Black Eyed Peas, from all kinds of angles. P4K has a phenomenal talent pool and I don't think that more astute engagement with pop would diminish the site's other role as an agenda-setter. Unless the readership is in fact the close-minded indie Taliban that its detractors claim.

Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

Obviously, I'm not sure what the practical limitations are here. I thought the advantage of a website over print was that you weren't so restricted space-wise and therefore could throw in a Black Eyed Peas review without it squeezing out a Liars one. I can understand more if it's simply a budget issue.

Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

Pitchfork shouldn't be expected to cover everything just because long-form generalist writing has collapsed elsewhere, surely?

of course not, it's entirely up to pitchfork how they conceive their mission and their audience, and scott's being pretty straightforward about that. it still doesn't get to my desire for writing about any kind of music -- whether it's vampire weekend or susan boyle -- that thinks more broadly about how and why culture works, how it happens and what it all means (man). a new vampire weekend or animal collective album is a chance to do all of that, but for the most part what we get is "the lads've done it again!", or "bit of a sophomore slump there, boys." which i realize is really a complaint about the quality of critical discourse more broadly. and i also realize that one natural response to that is, "well if you're interested in that, why don't you do it?" which is fair enough.

xpost: yeah jody rosen is a good and rare example of how to do that kind of thing well.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 15:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

OMG! What'd I miss?

tipsy, you know I love your 1940s-film-lovin' ass but I think your, at best, indifference to The Animal Collectives (in mpp form) is putting up some blinders. You say you want a sense of how "20-something paralegals in omaha getting turned onto mpp at some 4th-of-july cookout." You want writing on mpp that doesn't feel "sealed off," that discusses "how or whether the music engages with anything outside of its own hipster-runoff universe."

But when confronted with a piece which does exactly that, you switch the terms of debate. Now you want a piece about what "the indie arrested-development sensibility of the past 15 years or so signif[ies] about the economic situation of the american middle class." Well, I could argue that Mike Powell's perfectly fine hymn to mpp in the Voice addresses the latter concern. But it quite obviously does discuss "how or whether the music engages with anything outside of its own hipster-runoff universe." You mention the Spike Jonze reference but completely ignore the heart(s) of the piece - playing the music for his parents. He details the how (dad's curiosity; in the car with mom after a movie) and the whether (kind sorta for dad; hells no for mom). And while the fact that dad was even curious to begin with and the movie he saw with mom was Where The Wild Things Are may speak (rather petulantly, I'd say, but voila) to his parents' own hipster proclivities, Powell is still trying to engage with the album outside of his own hipster-runoff universe (the parameters of which are what exactly? do we think we know Powell so well that we can paint that universe in any useful detail?). So why would the 4th-of-july cookout be necessarily more compelling (or real?) than a car ride with mom? And why would 20-something paralegals have a corner on that (or any) reality?

Also, with all due respect to Le Tigre, we have to stop thinking of "myspace pages to small music blogs to big music blogs to pitchfork" as somehow not real or less real than "the college radio-zines-clubs world" or even Scott's smart acknowledgment of "bars, cafes, shops, boutiques, restaurants." Not only do the interwebs produce myriad real effects but there's a reality (a corporeality, if you will) to how we engage with them. Furthermore, all their inequities or shortcomings were/are present in the "more real" public sphere, e.g., face-to-face communication can throw up smokescreens; trolling existed well before the interwebs; etc.

if you'll allow me to be glib for a moment, techno was always already the first indie manifestation in dance music. Which is why this "takeover" has been so subtle and so successful.

You may be using "indie manifestation" in a way different than I can imagine at the moment but this is patently incorrect. There was always a disco underground on independent labels running parallel to (and sometimes in tandem with) the mainstream hits/lifeworld, esp. fertile in the early 1980s when disco "died."

The chuck eddy essay is the most annoying thing I've ever read.

But annoying is fun, cf. Alain Robbe-Grillet.

Kevin John Bozelka, Friday, 22 January 2010 16:22 (seven years ago) Permalink

wasn't there an article about re-evaluating nickelback on slate or something and it was pretty much retarded?

― call all destroyer, Friday, January 22, 2010 10:41 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it was about Creed btw

some dude, Friday, 22 January 2010 16:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

ah dammit you're right. could have probably written the same essay abt nickelback though.

call all destroyer, Friday, 22 January 2010 16:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

Four hours late but re bands p4k doesn't cover: Fall Out Boy, Green Day, Paramore, etc.

Mordy, Friday, 22 January 2010 20:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

theres a thread about this

not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Friday, 22 January 2010 20:00 (seven years ago) Permalink

lol. Nevermind. I see the thread spin-off has this covered.

Mordy, Friday, 22 January 2010 20:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

For another what-if, here's a non-GAPDY chart retabulating without anybody who voted for G, A, P, D or Y. Yet another way of seeing that there are definite clusters of taste, whatever you want to call them: maybe indie, oldie, hard and smooth...

glenn mcdonald, Friday, 22 January 2010 20:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

holy hell Glenn, I could lose HOURS on that stats site

Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

i love how Mastodon, converge and baroness all beat the xx. Take that hipsters!

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

^^^hipster metal all.^^^

the not-metal one (Ioannis), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

wow what a coup for hipster metal

call all destroyer, Friday, 22 January 2010 21:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

But when confronted with a piece which does exactly that, you switch the terms of debate.

yes and no. i mean, i gave the powell piece partial credit -- it at least tries to connect the band to other things in the culture. but limiting the terms of discussion to himself and how he and his dad react differently and how "isn't this all about growing up" and so on still to me seems plagued with exactly the kind of insularity that afflicts an awful lot of writing about indie by indie fans for indie fans. on the music writing thread i was a defender of first-person writing having at least a legitimate place in criticism, but that whole lead-in to the animal collective essay seems like the kind of first-person stuff that people were objecting to on that thread. solipsism taking the place of insight. so i guess to be clearer, i'm not just interested in whether 20something paralegals in omaha like animal collective, but, you know ... why. why this music, why now. there's actually an interesting line in a current pitchfork review of the 'campfire songs' reissue:

The music also illustrates the drift away from masculine beats and toward sensual waves that has been indie music's prevailing current in recent years, as rock influences have lost ground.

... which is a good observation, but it doesn't really connect it to things deeper in the AC/indie ethos, it just sort of observes that it's going on. i guess what i value about good cultural criticism is that it can make connections and reveal things going on in the culture, well beyond the boundaries of whatever song or book or movie happens to be under consideration. you can of course also take that too far, parsing every beyoncé song for what it says about bank bailouts, but in general i think popular criticism tends to not examine enough what's going on in the substrata. so, i mean, if you're going to write about animal collective being the "album of the year," you know, that could/should say something about the year, or the decade, or the subculture that produced, or whatever. i like that powell's dad didn't like all the reverb (me either), but ... why does it sound that way? what does that sound mean?

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:25 (seven years ago) Permalink

can we talk about frontrunners for Pazz and Jop 2010 here?

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/sports/prince-reveals-song-for-vikings-saints-game

in the name of the purple and gold (HI DERE), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

okay wtf

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

did he jack a melody from the lutheran hymn book?

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

all this "why doesn't Pitchfork cover ___?!" handwringing reminds me of the identity politics of the 90s where people (incl. me) would complain about corporate media and its blinders and how there were no [insert minority/niche figures] on TV or in Rolling Stone or whatever. Except now its backwards and you people are complaining about how the little "indie" doesn't cover "mainstream" stuff. oh teh lolz

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

like, eagerly awaiting Brad Paisley appearing on Pitchfork TV in an "indie websites STILL suck" t-shirt

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:40 (seven years ago) Permalink

TABLES...TURNED

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

I didn't ask why, and I wasn't handwringing or demanding change, for the record.

some dude, Friday, 22 January 2010 21:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

but, y'know, thanks for playing, shakey reading comprehension collier

some dude, Friday, 22 January 2010 21:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

not really referring to you but thx for taking it personally some dude

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

THIS WHOLE COURT IS OUT OF ORDER!

*shits in a bag*

*lights it on fire*

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

*reviews bag of fire*

*give it a 4.3*

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

*eats some Häagen-Dazs*

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

lol

I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

"That bag of fire so deserved the monkey pissing in its own mouth. I mean, c'mon."

EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 January 2010 21:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah, i liked his early shits-in-a-bag-and-sets-it-on-fire antics sooooo much better. you know, like, back when he was still "cutting edge," man.

the not-metal one (Ioannis), Friday, 22 January 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink

"I've got a few of his early ziplocs that were just outstanding, but the full bag loses some of that charm."

EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

*reissues early flaming bags of shit on 180 gram vinyl*

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

*reviews reissue in the form of a short story involving two young hipsters having sex and eating ice cream in an American Apparel changing room*

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

*wooooooooooooooaaaaaah MY BAG IS ON FIREEEEEE*

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

*blogs that the review is third-rate Tao Lin*

Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

*reissues early flaming bags of shit on 180 gram vinyl*

Brown vinyl, splatter finish.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

*breaks up for 15 years*

*reunites to shit in a bag in its entirety at all tomorrow's parties*

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

*tweets about shit*

that sex version of "blue thunder." (Mr. Que), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

the non GAPDY chart is
1. old ppl voting for old ppl records, and
2. young people voting for rap, metal and actually progressive music

ie, what pazz and jop should be about. thanks glenn

Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:39 (seven years ago) Permalink

why cant old people vote for non old people music?

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

they just don't understand progressive music

iatee, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:41 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yes they do.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

no they don't, didn't you read whiney's post

iatee, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

you dumb dicks

all i;m just saying i assume it's not the twitterati making the roseanne cash record and allan toussaint records so high. sorry my pitch post wasnt all inclusive

Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

just wait for the reformed ELP album to hit the top 10 in the 2010 poll. So be careful for what you wish for! (Hint never let LJ vote)

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

twitterati

stop it

Prof. Einstein Geniuspants (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

rofl

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

no they don't, didn't you read whiney's post

― iatee

I was trying to make a joke. About Yes. The progressive rock band. Loved by old people.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

complicated joke

iatee, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

...and LJ.

xp d'oh!

the not-metal one (Ioannis), Friday, 22 January 2010 22:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

Yes.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 January 2010 22:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost to tipsy ok different strokes, then. But at this point, I'd say that any insular writing on Merriweather Post Pavilion is justified given the backlash. The poll winner has now become a cocoon in which to hide from all the haters. :)

Kevin John Bozelka, Saturday, 23 January 2010 09:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

Rolling pazz & jop poll 2009 no haters!

some dude, Saturday, 23 January 2010 12:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

actually i like the idea of mpp as a cocoon. that says more about it than most things i've read. i'm just not sure there's a butterfly at the other end...

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Saturday, 23 January 2010 17:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

there's poop at the other end IMO

you forgot what a hardcore blogger is (M@tt He1ges0n), Saturday, 23 January 2010 20:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

what a tragedy for butterflies

when I met you last night, baby, before you opened up your GAPDY (The Reverend), Saturday, 23 January 2010 20:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

doesn't everyone get this upset every year?

Emily's Cheese, Saturday, 23 January 2010 20:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

You may be using "indie manifestation" in a way different than I can imagine at the moment but this is patently incorrect. There was always a disco underground on independent labels running parallel to (and sometimes in tandem with) the mainstream hits/lifeworld, esp. fertile in the early 1980s when disco "died."

I'm using it very differently Kevin. Nothing to do with being independent and underground.

Tim F, Saturday, 23 January 2010 23:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

Ok if you have the time/inclination, feel free to explain.

Kevin John Bozelka, Saturday, 23 January 2010 23:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

hey guys I missed this thread but is the jist of it that ilx just figured out that polls are kinda lame y/n

Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

J0hn is a big fan

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost Nope. Quite the opposite. They are the Woodstocks of their times and YOU missed out on them, buddy! Jump on board next year so you don't get that empty, apathetic, Gen Xy feeling.

Kevin John Bozelka, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

john i would say the gist is that ppl are mad that the internet has ruined the "surprise" aspect of a massive year-end critpoll

call all destroyer, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:05 (seven years ago) Permalink

I guess another way we could read this thread is that a lot of misery is the result when I don't get the #1 spot - this was a preventable tragedy tho ppl, vote accordingly next time, not for me but for yourselves & the good of all future polls

Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

Kevin,

In context I was referring to how lots of artists working in dance music these days seem always to arrive with these carefully wrought individualist aesthetics, all very literary and articulate and connoisseurial and aware of the past, and always framed in (even-if-unspoken) opposition to this idea of dance music as generic beats for the masses, and (more subtly) iconoclastic resistance to being defined in the context of a "scene".

Detroit Techno was actually already like this from the very beginning (curiously for such dancefloor-aimed music), and the above tendency also informs a lot of writing about IDM etc during the 90s and early 00s, but I think that it's really only been in the last few years that dance music crit generally has swapped to this way of thinking as the default position where even stuff designed for clubbing, for being immersed in a DJ mix, has become framed in the same manner. Possibly to do with the fact that the readership is more likely to engage with the music via the isolated MP3 rather than in the club or record store.

Not that the kind of reviewing you still get in the House 12" reviews section of Mixmag is particularly fantastic or especially more "appropriate", but I think it's definitely true that there's a much greater tendency among dance music critics to write about dance music artists as if they were writing about indie artists for Pitchfork.

Tim F, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:08 (seven years ago) Permalink

john i would say the gist is that ppl are mad that the internet has ruined the "surprise" aspect of a massive year-end critpoll

― call all destroyer, Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:05 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i was surprised by the results of the singles poll, fwiw

some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

It'll be interesting to see if the ILX singles poll has more or less of a nexus with what's really popular currently. Obv I don't expect it to be so GAPDY.

Tim F, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:12 (seven years ago) Permalink

popular currently here or in the (heh) real world?

some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

I suspect a lot of people have decided not to vote for GAPDY because of all the other polls and the reaction to them on here.

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

popular currently here or in the (heh) real world?

"the real world" - sales etc. I have a suspicion that our poll results will be similarly divorced from that, only in other directions.

Tim F, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

yeah i think the ilx poll will be very "tracks"-ish, perhaps moreso than the P&J or even PF lists

some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:42 (seven years ago) Permalink

would people who like those records really choose not to vote for them because of ILX stigma? if so that's pretty fucked up.

some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:43 (seven years ago) Permalink

Phoenix and YYY are popular bands on ILX so I would expect them to do well. But who knows.

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

But i can totally see people not voting for those bands even if they like them just because they're fed up with a lot of the polls having the same end result. We will find out in 2 weeks I suppose.

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

i wonder if the poll had taken place at the same time as the other polls, so noone knew any results, if the ilx poll would have had similar results to p4k, P&J etc.

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:54 (seven years ago) Permalink

xpost to Tim F

You NEED to read my mentor/idol Will Straw if you haven't cuz he writes brilliantly about all this. His 1992 essay "Systems of articulation, logics of change: Communities and scenes in popular music" (click here to download) attempts a cognitive mapping of the cultures of alt.rock (I think we could slot 'indie' in here) and dance music. Dance music coalitions, he writes, "value the redirective and the novel over the stable and canonical, or international circuits of influence over the mining of a locally stable heritage" (385). What YOU'RE saying is that now dance music artists value the stable and canonical albeit as individual islands rather than coalitions that form into scenes (although that's not certainly not true of dance music across the board today).

But while I agree with you re: this transformation, I still wonder if there wasn't a species of that connoisseurial self-consciousness in disco. Straw has another essay, "Value and velocity: the 12-inch single as medium and artifact” (in Popular Music Studies. David Hesmondhalgh and Keith Negus, eds. London: Arnold, 2002), which moves towards making that case (and somewhat refuting the earlier essay).

Then again, for any of this to truly make sense, we'd have to agree that there's some sort of line connecting, say, early 1980s NYC dance music to Detroit techno.

Kevin John Bozelka, Sunday, 24 January 2010 01:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

Well yeah it's def. not across the board for dance music - this conversation is more about dance music criticism and what I would consider to be emergent/dominant/residual trends within it.

I'll absolutely read that Straw piece (thanks for the link) and I'm reluctant to comment beforehand, but I'd say if anything the current things which irritate me have grown rather organically out of dance music's internal critical predilections - in that, while critics are still trying to identify "the redirective and the novel", they're doing so in a way that privileges particular kinds of redirection/novelty over others. At the same time there's a lot of bad over-emphasis on "the stable and canonical" too. And I think - as opposed to my reading of Straw's quote - dance music criticism has always been a mixture of both, it's even more intensely canonical in some waysl then rock crit.

So it's complicated - no surprise there. Probably the only unifying across the board factor is that dance music criticism is growing more distant than ever from any kind of populist discourse - we may bitch about Pitchfork not covering Brad Paisley, but for Resident Advisor and FACT, producers who are totally within their spheres of coverage - say, David Guetta or Axwell or Afrojack (probably the most influential producer/DJ in commercial dance in 2009?) - may as well not exist.

Tim F, Sunday, 24 January 2010 01:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

I suspect a lot of people have decided not to vote for GAPDY because of all the other polls and the reaction to them on here.

― Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Saturday, January 23, 2010 4:27 PM (1 hour ago)

au contraire!!! Me and the missus were watching TV and there was a catchy song on a Ford (?) SUV commercial and I asked her "who is this?" and she shazaamed it and it was PHOENIX! I immediately added it to my ballot BECAUSE it was the first GAPDY song I heard and I want to fit in with the Jones'.

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 24 January 2010 02:11 (seven years ago) Permalink

"1901" had definitely grown on me thanks to that ad, I have no problem admitting.

if I don't see more dissent, I'm going to have to check myself in (Matos W.K.), Sunday, 24 January 2010 05:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think GAPDY will all do well in this poll except for maybe grizzly bear -- phx & yys have pretty big fanbases here, dp had a rather large & positive thread & i think tons of ppl like anco. i didn't see much talk about grizz tho

waka shame (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 24 January 2010 06:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

I predict in the ILX poll Y>A>P>D>G

tza nicholas ii (The Reverend), Sunday, 24 January 2010 06:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

still will bet many fake ilx dollars on anco winning v easily

k3vin k., Sunday, 24 January 2010 06:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

ilxor hates grizzly bear huh? I thought that album was great. I found the new YYY's album to be pretty blah

Emily's Cheese, Sunday, 24 January 2010 09:04 (seven years ago) Permalink

almost weird how trendy it's become for "other music" types to hate on Grizz, seems unfounded. They lost their "cool", I guess the XX and DP have it now?

Emily's Cheese, Sunday, 24 January 2010 09:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

i think grizzly bear probably sold well at other music

waka shame (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 24 January 2010 09:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

@waka shame, oh I meant people that WORK there, not the shoppers! The shoppers are just NYU students. It's the bros that work there that are "part time critic" "part time musician" "part time music store clerk" etc....

DJ's at Daddy's once a week. Freelances for the Voice, does a review for Spin or EW to "make extra cash" etc etc

Those types.

Emily's Cheese, Sunday, 24 January 2010 09:31 (seven years ago) Permalink

Is the "problem" with Grizzly Bear that they're kind of like an equiv. of Wilco now?

They seem like the one band in the GAPDY list which are totally US indie qua indie (and more so now than previously).

Whereas I think it's easier to say e.g. "I like Phoenix because they're a fab pop band, not because I'm totally into all that indie stuff" - and then other variations on this for the other bands.

Tim F, Sunday, 24 January 2010 10:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

honestly has anyone really listened to da grizz? Seriously, Daniel Rossen's guitar work and chords are far more adventurous than Wilco. They may now appear to be the "next wilco" which means many will declare them as "boring americana" but honestly, me thinks they are so much more

Emily's Cheese, Sunday, 24 January 2010 10:46 (seven years ago) Permalink

ps. I also think there's a lot of people on here that dislike bands like Grizzly Bear primarily because they 1: don't like their bio/look 2: don't like their fans or people they perceive to be their fans and 3: they like to be contrary and say Brad Paisley is amazing.

Emily's Cheese, Sunday, 24 January 2010 10:49 (seven years ago) Permalink

I mean that they're the equivalent of Wilco in the sense of how they fit in discursively - not referring to their strict sound, which is usually one of the less important things in issue when people decide not to check something out.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone on ILX in terms of rather liking Yellow House but then finding it difficult to motivate myself to listen to the new one.

Tim F, Sunday, 24 January 2010 11:03 (seven years ago) Permalink

people on here that dislike bands like Grizzly Bear primarily because...they like to be contrary and say Brad Paisley is amazing

Or, why contrarians have more fun, volume 4,276. Not that I like Paisely beyond a couple singles, but I've had more fun trying to get into him than trying to get into Grizzly Bear.

MumblestheRevelator, Sunday, 24 January 2010 12:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

"I'm pretty sure I'm not alone on ILX in terms of rather liking Yellow House but then finding it difficult to motivate myself to listen to the new one."

this is me! i loved yellow house. so did lots of people on ilm. there are raves galore about it here. but, yeah, didn't go out of my way to hear the new album. i'm sure its fine.

scott seward, Sunday, 24 January 2010 13:32 (seven years ago) Permalink

do any rock critics work at Other Music? and write for EW? i want names.

scott seward, Sunday, 24 January 2010 13:33 (seven years ago) Permalink

Brad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazingBrad Paisley is amazing

the not-metal one (Ioannis), Sunday, 24 January 2010 14:23 (seven years ago) Permalink

Is the "problem" with Grizzly Bear that

Grizzly Bear brings out the red state asshole in me. I want to beat them up and take their lunch money and then go listen to Skynyrd or AC/DC and maybe even vote republican. Well not the republican part but you understand...

kornrulez6969, Sunday, 24 January 2010 14:37 (seven years ago) Permalink

I like neither Brad Paisley nor Grizzly Bear. (I live in a place where the dreadful C&W stuff some of you have taken to fetishizing is as ubiquitous and unavoidable as indie music is in the worlds some of you seem to inhabit and loathe.) "Grizzly Bear brings out the red state asshole in me" is a bracing and honest admission, but not a very persuasive argument.

M.V., Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:16 (seven years ago) Permalink

People who regard anyone who likes, say, contemporary country (or anything, really) as big fake fronting fetishists come off like douchebags, imo. Take people at face value that they like what they say they like.

some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

(Actually, I don't know that it's an honest admission, do I? But I assume it is.)

xp to myself

M.V., Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:21 (seven years ago) Permalink

Are you kidding? Regarding anyone who likes GAPDY as a big fake fronting indie fetishist is an ILM raison d'etre.

M.V., Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:26 (seven years ago) Permalink

lol wtf does that even mean?

call all destroyer, Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

m.v., shut up

k3vin k., Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:36 (seven years ago) Permalink

I really don't think the typical knock here against insular indie rock listening habits is that it's all an elaborate put-on and nobody actually likes that stuff, but if you can find some posts that put forward that sentiment, I'd love to see them.

some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:47 (seven years ago) Permalink

The perils of living in a red state.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:48 (seven years ago) Permalink

"We got friends in red states who dig Grizzly Bear, we got friends in blue ones who love Brad Paisley. Over there's my friend Chuck Eddy, the embodiment of what it means to be truly purple."

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:50 (seven years ago) Permalink

"Fetishizing" GAPDY vs "Fetishizing" Brad Paisley

fetish - 12 definitions - 1. An object thought to have magical, especially magically sexual, powers

curmudgeon, Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:52 (seven years ago) Permalink

mmmm then I could definitely fetishize Brad Paisley.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

haw!

the not-GAPDY one (Ioannis), Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

Seriously, I'm tired of people using red-vs-blue state bullshit to explain why people like a band.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:56 (seven years ago) Permalink

plus, grizzly bear's yellow house is in massachusetts where they elect republican male models.

scott seward, Sunday, 24 January 2010 18:58 (seven years ago) Permalink

"i'm scott brown and i approve of the hairy bears. i mean grizzly bear!"

scott seward, Sunday, 24 January 2010 19:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Seriously, I'm tired of people using red-vs-blue state bullshit

Oh man, I was gonna say LOL about your Obama purple state thing until I realized you're sick of bullshitters like me.

Removing the red state joke from it, Grizzly Bear are too wimpy and respectable for me. I'm sure plenty of smart people like them and they're great at what they do, but for me personally, it's barf city bro.

kornrulez6969, Sunday, 24 January 2010 19:07 (seven years ago) Permalink

would people who like those records really choose not to vote for them because of ILX stigma? if so that's pretty fucked up.

― some dude, Sunday, 24 January 2010 00:43 (18 hours ago)

my ballot was probably somewhat influenced by this. not that i'm shy to vote for them because of people hating on them, but more that even though i love GADY a lot (not huge on P) i voted largely for albums that i was exposed to through ilm this year, and not so much other places. i think a lot of people who post as little as i do still vote in the poll, and i do feel a certain responsibility not to obscure the results away from being representative of the albums that were actually a big deal here. it would be kind of lame if dozens of lurkers all voted GAPDY and then those ended up all being top ten, since they're not all necessarily albums that were widely loved by the actively posting crowd. i still voted dirty projectors, and nominated a few albums that i'm sure no one else voted for, but there was definitely an element of strategy to my ballot.

samosa gibreel, Sunday, 24 January 2010 19:24 (seven years ago) Permalink

kornrulez supports one of my claims that people on here dont' like it for my reason #1, they don't like the bio or how they look. Wimpy is an obnoxious reason to hate a band, but it's still a reason.

Also, the "I loved yellow house" but couldn't motivate to listen to the new one is strange to me. Not sure I follow, if You love an album wouldnt' you want to check out the latest one?
Knee jerk reaction to hype/exposure if you ask me. People on here are too self aware.

Emily's Cheese, Sunday, 24 January 2010 21:34 (seven years ago) Permalink

how they look.

If the hair's wrong, I am more skeptical, sure.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 24 January 2010 21:35 (seven years ago) Permalink

hey, less pop garbage than usual this year, huh? good work, kidz.

Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 January 2010 02:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

how many haven't you heard!?

scott seward, Wednesday, 27 January 2010 03:13 (seven years ago) Permalink

tops is Mt Goats at #80!

Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 January 2010 04:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

pissed jeans?

k3vin k., Wednesday, 27 January 2010 04:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

saw em, didn't hear the record (ditto Grizzly Bear & YLT)

Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 January 2010 04:29 (seven years ago) Permalink

& godawful Wilco

Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 January 2010 04:30 (seven years ago) Permalink

kornrulez supports one of my claims ...they don't like the bio or how they look.

I'm sure their bio is dynamite stuff. And no doubt they're all handsome young lads. But in refute to your presumptuous (some would say bratty) assumption, I'm basing my opinion on how they sound.

kornrulez6969, Wednesday, 27 January 2010 18:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

I'm about a week late to this, but re: the relative size of Pfork to other sites/blogs: here are some approximate monthly stats for some of the more well-known sites:

(Audience/Pageviews)
---------------------
Pitchfork: 1,500,000 / 30,000,000
Hypem: 1,300,000 / 12,000,000
GVSB: 85,000 / 485,000
Fluxblog: 17,000 / 50,000
99.9% of remaining blogs: way lower

Stereogum keeps traffic data private, ditto for Brooklyn Vegan, but I estimate those at about:

Stereogum: 1,250,000 / 6,000,000
Brooklynvegan: 750,000 / 4,500,000

Catbird (mbvrc), Friday, 29 January 2010 20:01 (seven years ago) Permalink

Catbird, where'd you get those numbers from?

ekaloudis, Saturday, 30 January 2010 05:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

Music critics Chuck Eddy, Christopher Weingarten, Maura Johnson, Scott Seward, Ned Raggett and others offered their assessments of the poll

...I did?

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 30 January 2010 16:44 (seven years ago) Permalink

Go nuts.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, January 19, 2010 8:41 PM

^^

ksh, Saturday, 30 January 2010 16:55 (seven years ago) Permalink

Now the whole internet knows how much Ned loves polls!

Pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Saturday, 30 January 2010 16:57 (seven years ago) Permalink

Thrills.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 30 January 2010 17:02 (seven years ago) Permalink

@ekaloudis, a combination of Quantcast data and cross-referencing/relative size data from other public data sources (Compete, et. al.)

Catbird (mbvrc), Saturday, 30 January 2010 17:09 (seven years ago) Permalink

P&J parallel: 2009 vs 1990

The-Dream = Guy

Maxwell = Neville Bros

zvincter (The Reverend), Saturday, 30 January 2010 20:28 (seven years ago) Permalink

not sure what you mean by "parallel". the-dream and max did considerably better in 2009 than those two in 1990, and the Nevilles had a top 5 p'n'j album the year before.

da croupier, Saturday, 30 January 2010 20:38 (seven years ago) Permalink

just that they filled v similar niches

zvincter (The Reverend), Saturday, 30 January 2010 20:45 (seven years ago) Permalink

i guess, though the neville brothers were far more of a critics band, with little to no pop/r&b chart action

da croupier, Saturday, 30 January 2010 20:51 (seven years ago) Permalink

Roots-rock-type voters way more likely to go for Nevilles than Maxwell - no comparison at all, as far as I can tell.

xhuxk, Saturday, 30 January 2010 21:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

Somebody speculated, somewhere, that since the voting instructions for the first time this year didn't spell out the 15-14-13-12-11-9-8-7-6-5 weighting pattern, there would be a lot more unweighted 10-points-each album ballots. This didn't turn out to be the case, but I was waiting for a minor display-bug in the stats software to get fixed before adding the point-pattern breakdown to my list of slices. It's there now, for anybody really interested in numbers:

Point Patterns

glenn mcdonald, Friday, 12 February 2010 03:10 (seven years ago) Permalink

Thanks for reading my blog, Scott & Christopher ;-)

ederblog, Saturday, 20 February 2010 04:48 (seven years ago) Permalink


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