The Limits of Free Speech

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i aasked for an ilm post to be deleted because it had nothing to do with music, but was also an abusive post that wouldn't even get the time of day here on ile - i don't like censorship, but my thoughts are iI wasn't stopping this guy's voice from being heard - he'd said his shit, enough ppl had read it, he could repost it elsewhere, or probably repost it here, but i don't lose sleep over it...

Geoff, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Well, then. I officially give up on getting Nick to actually reply to my argument or admit what is, in the end, a pretty universally recognized reality.

I'm going to go listen to Ping Pong and remind myself why I generally like this person.

Nitsuh, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Is being an ass an 'other way of looking at the problem'?

Josh, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Re shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater - interesting way to see who panics and starts a stampede, and who doesn't

dave q, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Nick's not really being an ass, he's just a little out of his depth when unable to don some kind of mask (being 'Momus' matters more on ILM). Silly boy thinks I need a history lesson but I was actually THERE in PC World etc. worrying about these issues a decade ago (and proposing solutions) so we have no need of your coal in Newcastle, sir.

Yes, PC started in academia and the media and kept the denizens of those zones busy bickering while the politicians and corporations carried on business as usual with their same-old New World Order. And of course people were bound to realise mere lip service was being paid to the notion of equality. But I see the anti-globalism impulse as an evolution of these ideas, not a repudiation of same.

Anyway, this thread is rather Miltonesque: testing the virtues of a virtual Paradise could hardly be called anything else.

suzy, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Milton was an english protestant. the last thing paradise was to him was virtual.

anthony, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Seeing as said censoree — or someone pretending to be him same diff — has gone set up a hate-thread dedicated to ME hurrah!! on a forum NONE OF US HAVE POWER OVER, I unilaterally declare myself entirely vindicated and Momus entirely defeated by History Herself, Clio of Dread Mien. (ps Momus is being charming and friendly to me by email and since I am a Whore for Niceness this makes an Impression: of course his "position" above is retarded, not that I have read very much of it...)

("Retarded" in the kindly American sense, of course...)

mark s, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

i think i have realised that my views on this make me a moral relativist. well, i can live with that. i don't like the universalising dogmatism that momus (or perhaps his pervert doppelganger) has propogated on this thread (support his view to say it of course). what happens in a particular space is more important to me. the pub analogy may have been bad, how about a Stockholm cafe then, abusive behaviour tolerated?

i am anti-censorship, broadly speaking, but i don't apply this general view everywhere, yes this is contradictory, yes this is contextual, yes this is relativist, i agree, but there you have it.

out of interest,

btw, would people be quite happy if i published the phone numbers and addresses of people on this board, against their wishes?

gareth, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

No way Gareth! I'd call the cops if you did that! :)...this is turning into one of those *gulp* it's so long I don't have an hour to read this, I'll just read the last few responses threads!

jel, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

ILM, as some may recall *has guidelines*. They are on the About and the New Threads pages. They are explicit. They guide when and how often to post threads, and what the discussion on the boards should center around. They ask posters to refrain from personal attacks. These guidelines exist and moderators are there to enforce them. And categorize threads. Period.

One of the fondest memories of my life in regulated group situations was in my co-op. We go by roberts rules and thus can "move the question" at which point a vote is taken on if we are to end the discussion and vote on the motion. Think fillibusters and how to beat them in Congress. Anyway, some hippie assholes decide this is "undemocratic" and bring up a motion against this procedure. We move the question. The next week, the same thing happens. My point, as it relates to this discussion? Fuck hippies.

Also, lynching was not about speech but organized and institutionalized racial terror and oppression for the purpose of maintaining a particular political economy with black ppl. on the bottom. Also, Momus should take a good look at who Falun Gong are before he starts praising them. Irony time: momus cries fascist at innocent moderation and the FG are racial purists. Who also encouraged a twelve year old girl to self immolate.

Sterling Clover, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Encouraging 12-yr-olds to self-immolate? But what are Falun Gong's BAD points?

dave q, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

is this thread all about me wanting to lick kate's love shaft? I'm confused...

Geoff, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

four years pass...
Hello.

I, Monday, 31 October 2005 14:58 (nineteen years ago) link

hi!

jdubz (ex machina), Monday, 31 October 2005 15:06 (nineteen years ago) link

one year passes...

What a retarded thread. and what, why the revive?

kingkongvsgodzilla, Saturday, 23 June 2007 18:28 (seventeen years ago) link

You see where moderation transparency gets you?

onimo, Saturday, 23 June 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

It doesn't read like mark s's usual style of writing.

Bob Six, Saturday, 23 June 2007 19:42 (seventeen years ago) link

two years pass...

Interesting

Il suffit de ne pas l'envier (Michael White), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:17 (fourteen years ago) link

sfgate seems like a good place for that news

iatee, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:25 (fourteen years ago) link

eight months pass...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/dec/12/ban-pastor-jones-extremists-violence

"What about principle. The right to free speech." We have laws that protect our right to free speech. We also have laws that prevent incitement to racial and religious hatred. Occasionally, a difficult balance has to be struck.

the takeaway: "It's a no-brainer."

"let's have a heated debate"

Breakin': Based on the Novel "Two" by Electric Boogaloo (history mayne), Monday, 13 December 2010 09:30 (thirteen years ago) link

And I wonder where this debate would be if it was a Muslim cleric planning to come to the UK and start burning Bibles.

actually this might be the hilarious takeaway. yes, what if there were preachers in britain inciting racial and religious hatred, what a crazy parallel world that would be.

Breakin': Based on the Novel "Two" by Electric Boogaloo (history mayne), Monday, 13 December 2010 09:32 (thirteen years ago) link

eight months pass...

Greenwald on the DOJ prosecuting unpopular speech:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/04/speech/index.html

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 4 September 2011 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link

David Frum's "b-b-b-but Lincoln did it" response on twitter is pathetic.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Sunday, 4 September 2011 17:12 (thirteen years ago) link

Greenwald has the full weight of the US Constitution and unanimous Supreme Court rulings on his side. On the opposing side there is nothing but fear or subservience to power. Not hard to choose between these two, imo.

Aimless, Sunday, 4 September 2011 17:30 (thirteen years ago) link

greenwald accusing lincoln of 'extremism and lawlessness' on twitter hardly less ridiculous, and hurts his argument. though this was one of the better greenwald posts in a while.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Sunday, 4 September 2011 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link

but it was lawless, Blanche.

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 4 September 2011 19:49 (thirteen years ago) link

That riposte was weak even for Frum.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 4 September 2011 20:06 (thirteen years ago) link

one year passes...

Google itself approached the controversy in the spirit of prudence. The company declined to remove the video from YouTube because the video did not attack a group (Muslims) but only attacked a religion (Islam). Yet it also cut off access to the video in countries such as Libya and Egypt where it caused violence or violated domestic law.

don't be evil lol

paradiastole, or the currifauel, otherwise called (thomp), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:49 (twelve years ago) link

I forget which thread in the last 10 days boasted an argument between a britishes and American concerning "hate speech."

taking tiger mountain (up the butt) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:00 (twelve years ago) link

I heard somebody on NPR the other day saying their should be a UN convention on blasphemy. Not sure exactly what he meant, but apparently it is a thing:

http://www.iheu.org/belief-groups-unite-oppose-un-blasphemy-law

o. nate, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:05 (twelve years ago) link

Maybe it was this guy: Jeremy Bowen, Middle East editor for the BBC and author of "The Arab Uprisings".

In the wake of the violence sparked by the now infamous video insulting Islam, Bowen thinks an international convention on blasphemy would be an excellent use of the United Nations. But, as he points out, the U.N. has struggled for years to come to an agreement on how to define "terrorism," so such an amorphous term as blasphemy would presumably pose an even greater struggle.

http://www.thetakeaway.org/2012/sep/24/united-nations-considers-middle-east-unrest

o. nate, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:18 (twelve years ago) link

I forget which thread in the last 10 days boasted an argument between a britishes and American concerning "hate speech."

― taking tiger mountain (up the butt) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:00 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

these are always great

la goonies (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:14 (twelve years ago) link

outlawing blasphemy is absurd. every religion is blasphemous to another religion.

gesange der yuengling (crüt), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:17 (twelve years ago) link

it was towards the end of this thread: 7 years of prison for pussy riot?

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:24 (twelve years ago) link

that was me and that was a month ago

stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:38 (twelve years ago) link

i used a variation of "racial hatred all gone yet?" on a friend recently, so thanks

la goonies (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:39 (twelve years ago) link

I saw this transition in yesterday's NYT story on Obama's UN speech:

The president worked to explain — before a sometimes skeptical audience that has never completely bought into the American idea that even hateful speech is protected — why the United States values its First Amendment so highly.

taking tiger mountain (up the butt) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:44 (twelve years ago) link

god your newspapers suck

paradiastole, or the currifauel, otherwise called (thomp), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 23:11 (twelve years ago) link

three years pass...

Thread

Soon all logins will look like this (darraghmac), Wednesday, 24 February 2016 21:45 (eight years ago) link

thought this would be a revive about metal polls

Szechuan TV (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 24 February 2016 21:50 (eight years ago) link

Did I miss some hi-q ilm action? cmon man you know I rely on youse to give me a nod on that shit.

Soon all logins will look like this (darraghmac), Wednesday, 24 February 2016 21:53 (eight years ago) link

your free speech ends where my penis enlarger begins

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Wednesday, 24 February 2016 23:03 (eight years ago) link

Hi contends btw

Soon all logins will look like this (darraghmac), Wednesday, 24 February 2016 23:46 (eight years ago) link

hallo, dags!

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Thursday, 25 February 2016 18:25 (eight years ago) link

dagby?

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Thursday, 25 February 2016 18:25 (eight years ago) link

in Beyonce's video there is non-violence even the word meme HANDS UP DONT SHOOT is non-violent yet here we have a state power structure suppressing it by falsely portraying Beyonce as an agent of violence essentially making some viral form of pro-status quo state propaganda. as individual the police unions can say whatever they want but as public service members, as people that walk around with guns and the power to lock you away from your family, they have a responsibility to not act like idiots and make things less safe by saying things like this. for me the limits of free speech is when you are making things dangerous for others.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 25 February 2016 18:46 (eight years ago) link


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