CocoRosie member goes to "Kill Whitey" Ironic dance parties and gets called out by brainwashed.com as racist

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GASP, they say "nigger!"

Meanwhile, three posts in this thread have used the word "retarded" with far less artistic motive.

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:52 (eighteen years ago) link

i cant believe ive been accused as using you as a racially convenient prop for my own opinions and as thinking youre white in the same week!

― _, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:53 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost it seems like every race thread always brings out the ilxers desperately fiending to post the n-word with the excuse of making a lame point

― _, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, but retarded people are funny.

― Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 7 November 2005 18:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Eppy OTM.

― sean gramophone (Sean M), Monday, 7 November 2005 20:01 (eighteen years ago) link

I dont think you even need to be a white dude who's connected to lots of trap/hood/gangsta music to see what Nitsuh's saying, just being a white dude liking rap music without setting it up against 'the bad stuff' or saying 'because its so silly!' will bring out that kind of 'what do you think you're not white or something?' But that reaction is always from white people. I mean not that there aren't race landmines a well-meaning whiteboy isn't dancing around all the time when he's partying with non-white folks, but if yr not being condescending or whatever no one is going to get mad at you for taking black music seriously.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 7 November 2005 20:25 (eighteen years ago) link

x-post-a-lot
um, I guess I don't really have much to say. I think theres a pretty big difference between buying into a minority culture and buying into the "dominant" culture though. Culture and identity are important tools for any repressed people. And I don't really buy that theres a white culture so much, because its so everywhere and in your face that it has no meaning to white people. At least not to me anyway, I don't really feel like being white and american gives me any cultural pride or anything. Plus all of that mainstream/white culture is created by (white-owned) corporations and so has no cultural value anyway. And in response to "--"'s comment, "white guilt for oppression...bullshit, its just an excuse whites use to not to engage with parts of black culture they dont like, sour grapes 'they wouldnt want me there anyway' bullshit." I dunno, I like rap a lot but I basically assume that black people would (rightfully) resent me for being too into it. I think white people should feel guilty. Maybe I am really wrong about this stuff though.

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 02:15 (eighteen years ago) link

i think white people should feel guilty for the priveleges gained from 400+ years of ongoing racism, theft, and oppression, not for hanging out w/ black people and listening to rap music

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 03:32 (eighteen years ago) link

There are more posts in this thread than people worried about or even aware of the subject matter.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link

ott i cant say i really trust your statistical capabilities after you claimed pfork has 30 million unique readers or whatever

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 03:57 (eighteen years ago) link

I thought that (the whole oppression thing) was what white kids felt guilty about, which was preventing them from hanging out with black kids and listening to rap music.

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:06 (eighteen years ago) link

how does that make sense?

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:17 (eighteen years ago) link

"the young lady said she's afraid of violence. and isnt it sad that we, who have been the victims of so much violence- now, whites fear violence from us. we do not have a history of killing white people. white people have a history of killing us. and what you fear- may i say this sir? what you fear- and its a deep guilt thing that white folks suffer- you are afraid that if we ever come to power, we will do to you and your fathers what you and your people have done to us. and i think you are judging us by the state of your own mind, and that is not necessarily the mind of black people" - louis farrakhan on donahue in 1990

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:19 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't want to be around people who should by all rights think I'm an asshole? I can't really do anything about being an asshole though. "you are afraid that if we ever come to power, we will do to you and your fathers what you and your people have done to us". That sort of thing wouldn't be justifiable, but it certainly would be understandable. What am I supposed to say to something like that? "I know that my people are responsible for slavery, and following that, regulating your people to the underclass. Hey, did you hear the new Dead Prez? It wasn't really as good as their first album."

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:45 (eighteen years ago) link

maybe black people think youre an asshole because youre terrified of them

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:49 (eighteen years ago) link

really what the fuck is wrong with you, do you think these black racist savage fantasies are ok just because you dress them up with white liberal guilt? "the negroes would kill me in a second if they got the chance.... which is understandable!"

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:52 (eighteen years ago) link

'bisco: the problem I have with Cocorosie is their tremendous level of pretention. It wasn't an issue on record, but live... with their fractalized care-bear backdrops and their harlequin masks and their gaudy gold marijuana leaf necklaces and neck tattoos... it's inescapable. Issues of race aside (and incidentally, I'm not sure I've ever noticed any of those in coco's music), it's the sheer posturing of the band that takes me away from being able to dig it. Conflating that posturing with racism because they perform in a "black idiom"... with beatboxers (from France, even!) and sorta kinda almost RAP... is, of course, DUDLEY.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:30 (eighteen years ago) link

x-post
Ok, I'd really like to understand your point of view, and it would make it easier to talk with you if you would avoid outright calling me racist and instead focused on making rational arguments. Seriously though, I'm willing to be convinced. I mean I'm not sure I've said anything that indicates I have "black racist savage fantasies". Maybe it would help if you knew that I think that Middle Eastern people would resent me for being American, women would resent me for being male...? I mean I'm not saying that of course this is the only way people will ever react to me but all the same time I do feel guilty and I feel like people have a right to be angry about these kinds of things. I don't think I'm the same as black people no more than I think I'm the same as hispanic people or asian people or whatever. That isn't meant to be a value judgement. But what do you think is the way to relate to people that are different from you? Just pretend like the differences don't exist? Honestly I'm trying really hard here to be honest and reasonable and I feel like I'm only succeeding in angering people, which I'm really not trying to do. I mean I really am sorry if I am offending you or anyone else.

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:32 (eighteen years ago) link

btw I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to the things I've written. I just want to understand how it is that I'm taking a racist point of view.

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:39 (eighteen years ago) link

sorry i was just being a dick! i dont really think you hate non whites or whatever, you just seem really provincial and withdrawn about knowing your "place" with other liberal white folks (a position which is afforded by white privlege - black people dont get to decide whether or not theyre comfortable in white american culture) even though i would imagine like every white american you participate in black culture (lit, food, art, song) and come in contact with black folks on the daily (friends, work, school, bank), so it becomes a matter of guiltily presupposing how youll be treated by a minority which continues to be rightfully bitter over how they got fucked and continue to be fucked over by white america. does this translate into blanket hatred for whites? well overwhelmingly not in most anybody i know, even militant panthers preaching about the impossibility of negotiations with the white man still give me a pound and say whats up, and 99.999% of black americans are much less separatist than that- shit. look at the farrakhan quote! i mean dont act like a cocky jackass who thinks they own black culture, but dont act like youre being persecuted either. this will amaze you but most people are friendly regardless of ethnicity! and non-whites have been behaving diplomatically towards other races for much longer than white folks have! i assume when you talk about being white and engaging in black culture you mean a specific, presumed black majority part of it, not watching ice cube in friday or reading nikki giovanni or whatever. you probably mean gangsta rap music or radical politics, or black barbershops and community stuff. there is a long tradition of white participation in black culture, from abolitionism to the civil rights era to booker t & the mgs. i dont think you have to "pretend the differences dont exist". i make jokes about my white country south carolina redneck ass all day. im not ashamed of being white for the sake of it. i am ashamed of benefiting from a racist system of oppression and jim crow and all that. i am ashamed of subconscious racial attitudes i see in myself. every white person needs to be aware of that, to understand how much blood is on their hands and predjudice built in your heart, but to let it cripple you with fear & cause you to segregate yourself into an all-white society just because youre frightened of some fury of justified black rage, that isnt just wrong, its harmful. i dont think we live in a post racial society, and i dont believe we should. but when you ask me how to "relate to people that are different from you", i think this says a lot more about you than anyone else in the world.

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:23 (eighteen years ago) link

sorry thats long as hell, its way too late!!! really that quote (thx to darius james transcribing it - like i watched donahue when i was 7) sums up what im tryna get to, when you got dude like farrakhan going 'look white folks just calm down its cool' re: race mixing you know hes for real on that, to me the whole idea for guilty whites to opt out of any actual dialogue and just talk to other white folks about how bad slavery was is some of the most racist bullshit going nowadays. and despite probly sounding like an asshole i really do understand what youre talking about here, growing up w/ my mom i was the typical colorblind upn sitcom white kid but when i got around jr high/high school age there was times at friends houses or restaurants or clubs where i felt really awkward being the only white person and i imagined that sort of racial unwelcomeness - all eyez on me- but really it was just my own bullshit, and i wish other whites would get the fuck over themselves and their special racial status and crying tears for their string of victims long enough to realize thats what its like for them too

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, honestly, that is a pretty accurate description of what I am like. I grew up in an incredibly segregated town, which is horrible, especially given that I grew up in a supposedly "liberal" town south of San Francisco. The segregation was based on wealth more than racism, I suppose, but that doesn't make it much better. "most people are friendly regardless of ethnicity", I'm not really comfortable around other white people or really people in general, which maybe I'm right or maybe I have social anxiety or something. I mean you say "black people dont get to decide whether or not theyre comfortable in white american culture", I don't really feel comfortable in that culture either. I mean obviously, people don't act racist towards me, I don't have to worry about being denied a job because of my ethnicity, etc, so I don't have to face the problems that so many people have to face. But I'm still not sure how to address the fact that I have obviously enjoyed privilage by being white. I guess, to try and get back to the topic of this thread, that was what I was trying to say about the people that attend Kill Whitie parties. Not that they are necessarily racist (at least in intention, it seems they are in action), but that they simply are misguided and don't really understand how to confront issues of racial identity. "i wish other whites would get the fuck over themselves", yeah I pretty much have that problem in all relations and not ones with racial aspects. I dunno, I really have to figure this out for myself I suppose, but thanks for sharing your views with me.

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:47 (eighteen years ago) link

PS sorry everyone else for hijacking the thread. I'm done now. Please continue with the racial discussion as it pertains to CocoRosie.

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:52 (eighteen years ago) link

haha wikipedia:
"During this period, Bianca studied linguistics and sociology, and pursued her passion of visual arts and writing. She also managed to collect a variety of tattoos, and was known to attend "Kill Whitey" parties in Williamsburg, Brooklyn."

― noizem duke (noize duke), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 08:45 (eighteen years ago) link

With any luck, CocoRosie's album will tank as ethically-savvy music fans refuse to buy it and educate their friends; "Cool" record shops will refuse to stock or sell their records, and tell their customers why. After disappointing sales, their label will dump them and they'll be exiled as pariahs, with as much chance of selling records as Gary Glitter. Then anybody else who thinks it's "cool" to be ironically racist will have the burnt-out wreckage of CocoRosie's career and credibility to behold as proof otherwise.

Alternatively, they'll take the hint, become even more hipsterishly abrasive and sell lots of records to the skull-attired coke-snorting nihilists who think that giving a fuck about issues is gay.

― acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 20:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Despite all this talk I don't see how Cocorosie's fan base is any more NYC-hipsterish than, say, Cat Power's -- slightly more, I guess, but the mainstream on both seems to be just sleepy college kids.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 November 2005 21:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Wow, whatever - your life story could be mine.

Except for the whole 'getting a job and not being discriminated for my ethnicity' part.

But I really, truly identify, man.

― WTF, Friday, 11 November 2005 21:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Coke-o-racist?

― acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:06 (eighteen years ago) link

has anyone besides me actually been to one of the kill whitie parties?

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:39 (eighteen years ago) link

They wouldn't let me in.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:46 (eighteen years ago) link

has anyone besides me actually been to one of the kill whitie parties?
-- phil-two (philtw...), November 11th, 2005. (phil-two)

was it like how it's described in the article?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:48 (eighteen years ago) link

i mean whatever, its a party where people are drinking and dancing to hiphop.. in like williamsburg. how is this different than some corny club on west 27th street where everyone is white, and drinking and dancing to hiphop? well ok, the name, but the only people who took that seriously was the washington post. the quotes in the article are pretty stupid, but i mean, the kids were probabably really drunk.

its kinda like that ny times article a few years ago about the trucker hat, where the nytimes lady interviewed some drunk hipster at the pussycat lounge and he told her that there's a code to the trucker hat. if you wear it cocked to the left, youre from the east village. to the right, williamsburg. up and left, means youre a gay man from chelsea. down and right means west village, etc. then they printed that in the ny times sunday style section and we all had an enormous laugh.

anyways, the party is pretty fun. jeremy (mr. pumpsta) is kinda insane though.

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

They wouldn't let me in.

youre joking, right?

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:16 (eighteen years ago) link

So the stuff about the buckets of fried chicken and privileged white kids acting out stereotypes of black people as violent, sex-crazed animals was just bullshit that someone fed the reporter?

― acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:31 (eighteen years ago) link

how the fuck is dancing to hiphop = acting out stereotypes of black people as violent sex-crazed animals?

and why is this getting more attention when you can go to ANY club in america and you'll find white people grinding or doing the toosie roll or whatever?

there honestly isn't anything different about this party than most any other party ive ever been to.

i never saw a bucket of fried chicken either.

also, i do not have a trust fund.

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh so this isn't problematic at all? phew.

― deej.. (deej..), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:06 (eighteen years ago) link

i wonder what buckethead thinks about this.

phil-two, i kinda maybe believe you that this wasn't as bad as portrayed in the article, but i dunno there's some problematic stuff going on there that's not just our imaginations, i'd bet.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:08 (eighteen years ago) link

i mean if the reporter's usual beat was nightlife/culture/style or something like that, then maybe - but her other articles were about the NJ governorship race, counter terrorism, tom delay, etc.

― phil-two (phil-two), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:59 (eighteen years ago) link

or like that time in the 1990's when NYT ask sub pop employees about grungespeak.

― maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Saturday, 12 November 2005 01:18 (eighteen years ago) link

hahaha yeah! "cob-nobbler"

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 12 November 2005 02:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh dude I hope nobody imagines these parties are like actual racist hotbeds, or something -- they're just parties with a problematic and annoying theme. Nobody actually thinks these kids have issues, right? They're just problematically indifferent to the theme of a party they like being kinda fucked.

― nabombo, Saturday, 12 November 2005 04:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Though doesn't the very fact that the kids are getting into the parties and remaining indifferent to their being problematic prove that the casual racism and race/class privilege go so deep that they are unaware of them whilst being profoundly affected by them in their everyday interactions and assumptions?

Racism isn't just the province of Klansmen and white-supremacists.

― acb (acb), Saturday, 12 November 2005 11:27 (eighteen years ago) link

actually phil, i was really wondering if there was any integration at these parties at all, and if you thought it would be more awkward than usual if any group of five black folks from any particular social/class demographic at all just wandered in?

also, i had a party that was ironically ny-hipster circa 2002. nobody else got it tho and they all asked me to change out the electroclash for other music. :-(

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 12 November 2005 13:31 (eighteen years ago) link

So if a hipster in 2005 wears a trucker hat, are they referring ironically to (a) working-class/white-trash culture, or (b) trendies who started wearing trucker hats unironically as a fashion statement in 2003 or so?

― acb (acb), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:57 (eighteen years ago) link

depends on which borough he's from.

― amon (eman), Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:01 (eighteen years ago) link

probably not any more or less awkward than any other party where most people are white, and a group of five black folks from any particular social/class demographic just wandered in.

― phil-two (phil-two), Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I just wanna say that unlearning racism (and other isms, for that matter) is a life long process. As a white guy I recognize that I'll always have work to do and new things to learn. And it's a lot more about listening to people that you can learn from than trying to defend your current point of view. White people who say "I'm not racist" annoy me for this reason - it's like saying "I know everything and don't need to know any more".

Also, it isn't non-white's job to teach us about this stuff, just like it isn't women's job to teach men about sexism. Asking people to "teach" or enlighten you is IMO putting them into the same "other with specialized knowledge" position that got us into this mess. Also note that this is different than just listening to what people have to say, or going out and reading, say a book on white privilege and asking folks for their take on what you've learned.

It's early for me and my brain is slow, but try some of Bell Hooks' stuff for starters. I hope I made a little sense, a lot of the white responses I've read here make me sad and frustrated.

― sleeve (sleeve), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:30 (eighteen years ago) link

99% of these responses, regardless of the race of the poster, makes me sad and frustrated. This discussion is missing the input of the type of black folks who are being caricatured at these functions.

― kevin says relax (daddy warbuxx), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Kevin while your point is 5% taken I think you're staring right past the whole point of this thread, which has largely revolved around precisely the way you're using the phrase "type of black folks" in your post.

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:45 (eighteen years ago) link

As always, though, it's a pleasure to see how people's high-minded sadness and frustration over the idea of race can work as an excellent way to seem very sophisticated about the whole thing without ever having to actually muck in and deal with it.

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link

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