― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:08 (twenty years ago) link
No matter what "it" is about, taking "truly English" to mean "100% English ancestors" is not good.
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:12 (twenty years ago) link
I know about Morrissey's background. I live in an area of London where a large minority (possibly even a majority) of the residents are first or second generation immigrants. I'm not wandering round saying those people are not "truly English". You seem to be.
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:22 (twenty years ago) link
― H (Heruy), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:29 (twenty years ago) link
Look Dadaismus the sort of message board I want to be on is the sort where if posters make what look like clumsy or unfortunate statements on sensitive issues it's possible to talk about that. I have a problem with people taking 'truly English' to mean '100% English ancestry' (as if there's any such thing) as you did upthread. I would have preferred it if you had wanted to talk about that and I'm sorry for my part in any fighting. Interweb fighting's rubbish.
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link
Of course H managed to leave out the qualifiers 'often' and 'in a sense' when he quoted my statement, therefore making a caveat-laden cravat into a blanket big enough to fall asleep beneath.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:42 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:46 (twenty years ago) link
...which is where we came in I think. OK fighting is stupid, jumping to conclusions about people is equally as stupid but if you can't detect any irony in Morrissey's "Englishness" then you don't really know much about Morrissey or growing up "Irish" in England or Britain.
""My Irishness was never something I hid," says Morrissey. "I was called Paddy from an early age. It was always odd later on with The Smiths when I was described as being extremely English, because other people would tell me that I looked Irish, sounded Irish."
And he did, he did.
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:55 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:57 (twenty years ago) link
PS. That line is 'The last truly British people you will ever know', not 'English'.
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:57 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:58 (twenty years ago) link
"Ironic given that Morrissey is far from 100% English (ditto Johnny Marr, the Gallaghers) - not exactly "the last truly English people you will ever know"
I don't think your intentions were malign but you rightly reacted very strongly - much more strongly than I did today - to Geir's comments about So Solid, when he appeared to question their 'Englishness'. I agreed with you then.
I also think that ambiguity in a lyric functions very differently from ambiguity in discussion, especially written discussion like this.
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:00 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:09 (twenty years ago) link
Ditto. Should we seek professional help?
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
On with the battle!
The line about 'the last truly British people you will ever know' is from 'We'll Let You Know', a song about football fans:
We're all smiles Then, honest, I swear, it's the turnstiles That make us hostile Oh ... We will descend On anyone unable to defend Themselves Oh ... Your Arsenal ! We may seem cold, or We may even be The most depressing people you've ever known At heart, what's left, we sadly know That we are the last truly British people you'll ever know We are the last truly British people you will ever know You'll never never want to know'
The obvious meaning of the song didn't stop John Harris in the NME from declaring:
'There are moments on this record when the hints of hideous political sympathies that have provided his detractors with new ammunition become full-frontal reminders of why Morrissey needed taking to task in the first place. Here, "England for the English", the line from 'National Front Disco' that began life as a non-committal slogan stolen from someone else's mouth, sounds worryingly like a sincere clarion call - and after a two-minute feedback coda Morrissey announces that he was thinking of releasing the song as a single. Very clever move.It's not the only chilling moment, either. You listen to 'We'll Let You Know', the song that talks about bovver-booted beer lads as "the last truly British people you'll ever know", visualise Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag in front of a backdrop featuring two skinheads, and feel slightly sick.'
Is this stupidity on Harris' part, or wilful misrepresentation?
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link
It ain't got Dizzee Rascal on it, that's what's wrong with the cunt.
― Jus' A Rascal! Dizzee Rascal!!, Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:37 (twenty years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:38 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
we're taking Just keeping The population down You're giving, giving, giving Well, it's your own fault For reproducing We're just keeping The population down
sounds like an editorial to me, a claim to gay virtue straight out of some radical crusading gay magazine.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:48 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:50 (twenty years ago) link
of course you could say that its a claim to virtue in celibacy
― zappi (joni), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:52 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:57 (twenty years ago) link