BORN IN THE USA v GRACELAND v BROTHERS IN ARMS

(The reader will notice that I conviently ignored the parts of Geir's post that were indefensible horseshit to make my point.)

Music Theory is the only correct way to approach songwriting. The more closely classical music values are being followed, the better pop comes out of it.

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awesome poll

1. Born In The USA
2. Graceland
3. Brothers In Arms

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

What bugs me is the lack of nuggets of melodies.

Geir, at this point you really are turning off stuff, based on adherence to dogma, that it seems like you would actually enjoy! I say this not to beat my head against a wall but to turn you on to a record that I think would be to your taste.

Yes, the rhythm tracks came first, but listen to this album! The melodies on some of these are among the best Paul Simon ever wrote - I mean, the title track and Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes seem like they should be right up her alley, and I wouldn't bat an eye if they turned up on Hearts and Bones. We can even sweeten the deal and trade them in for "Cars are Cars" which I suspect isn't as much your cup of tea.

Also "Crazy Love Pt. II" - I mean the way he sings "Fat Charlie the archangel sloped into the room..." is as lyrical and melodic as Simon gets. Also "Under African Skies."

"And I dropped to my knees, hung my head and cried" reminds me of my favorite bits in the Old Testament.

A striking aside, Soto! Thanx for that!

Like a church morning distilled into several words.

"Yeah, buddy, that's his own hair" has the same effect.

More seriously, though:
All the late night bargains have been struck
Between the satin beaus and their belles
And prehistoric garbage trucks
Have the city to themselves
Echoes roars dinosaurs
They're all doing the monster mash
And most of the taxis and the whores
Are only taking calls for cash

I don't know how it happened
It all took place so quick
But all I can do is hand it to you
And your latest trick

My door was standing open
Security was laid back and lax
But it was only my heart got broken
You must have had a pass key made out of wax
You played robbery with insolence
And I played the blues in twelve bars down Lover's Lane
And you never did have the intelligence to use
The twelve keys hanging off my chain

I don't know how it happened
It all took place so quick
But all I can do is hand it to you
And your latest trick

Now it's past last call for alcohol
Past recall has been here and gone
The landlord finally paid us all
The satin jazzmen have put away their horns
And we're standing outside of this wonderland
Looking so bereaved and so bereft
Like a Bowery bum when he finally understands
The bottle's empty and there's nothing left

I don't know how it happened
It was faster than the eye could flick
But now all I can do is hand it to you
And your latest trick

Reading about the Los Lobos controversy embittered me toward Graceland. Knopfler's just fine, but in the end its gotta be Broooooooooooce.

Yes, the rhythm tracks came first

But so did the chords too, and that's the main problem. Repetitive chords in the bottom are never the best way to create a good melody because changing chords is so essential to good songwriting.

I rarely like songs that has the same chord sequence repeated over and over again.

uh, the chords do change, what are you talking about

Well, "Diamonds On The Soles Of Here Shoes", which is the song on "Graceland" that works best as an actual song, has three chords. Three chords is way too little, particularly when we are speaking of I-IV-V. That theme is repeated all over again, there is no evaluation, no CLIMAX!

Geir, I thought the same thing as Doctor Casino when I read your comments about the pre-recorded tracks. And respectfully, I completely disagree with your assertion that repetitive chords in the bottom are never the best way to create a good melody. They aren't always the best way -- it's actually quite a bit easier to create a good melody over complicated chords.

But some of the best TUNES—that is MELODIES—in pop music history have been written over very, very simple chords. As someone who writes songs with complicated changes myself, I can tell you — they're a crutch, not an elixir. It's far more of a testament to your songwriting skills to write a good melody over simple chords than complicated ones.

And respectfully, I completely disagree with your assertion that repetitive chords in the bottom are never the best way to create a good melody. They aren't always the best way -- it's actually quite a bit easier to create a good melody over complicated chords.

But it isn't SUPPOSED to be easy!!!!
I want it to require some classic music theoretic schooling. The best songwriters are the ones who know all the tricks, all the hooks, know their history, in short know a LOT
And Paul Simon does that. His 70s and early 80s songs were crowded with those subtle details that proved this is a man with some schooling, a man who knows a lot more about music than the man on the street, this is an EXPERT! And that's what makes his 70s and early 80s so great, because he is better than most people, and he shows off his abilities and shows off how he is superior. Just like Paul McCartney at his best, just like 10cc at their best, just like Queen at their best, just like Genesis at their best.

But it isn't SUPPOSED to be easy!!!!

Do his bidding, guys.

And just like Mozart at his best for that matter. Because Mozart should be a reference to a much bigger extent than he is. Even in pop music.

Three chords is way too little, particularly when we are speaking of I-IV-V. That theme is repeated all over again, there is no evaluation, no CLIMAX!

The end up sleeping in a doorway -- that's climactic!

I heard "Born in the U.S.A." in the grocery store the other night, started listening to the lyrics, and, man, what a bring-down. I was thinking about the beat-too-much narrator and his all-gone buddy the rest of the evening. It's hard to believe such a bleak song was a hit. And it works in spite of (because of?) skeletal melody and song form. So: the Boss.

Born in the USA: two fucking chords and one of the 5 best songs of the 80s, or something like that. The simplicity of that song just slays.

But this poll is albums, and I have too many fond attachments to Graceland not to vote for it.

The same concert (one of Neil Young's Bridge Benefit shows) that has this version of "Dancing in the Dark" also has the bleakest, starkest version of "Born in the U.S.A." as well as "Seeds", all acoustic.

yeah born in the usa is sad....how many "feel good" anthems have lyrics like "you end up like a dog that's been beat too much"?

There are way better songs on the "Born In The USA" album than the title track. "My Hometown" and "Dancing In The Dark" are ace in particular.

Well I like the title track more because it has fewer chords.

The same concert (one of Neil Young's Bridge Benefit shows) that has this version of "Dancing in the Dark" also has the bleakest, starkest version of "Born in the U.S.A." as well as "Seeds", all acoustic.

― Eazy, Monday, October 20, 2008 3:57 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wowo!

More is more. More chords is better than few chords.

"Heart of the Sunrise" vs. "Amazing Grace" thunderdome.

"My Hometown" would have been nothing without the bridge though. That bridge does the entire song with its sudden change into minor.

yall shd seek out the insane-o version of bitusa from the bruce live in nyc disc where he plays a slide guitar for like 10 minutes and it sounds like a sitar

More is more.

Thank you for this.

brothers in arms

Graceland can cram it with walnuts, especially because of Simon's rampant ripoffery:
http://www.jambase.com/Articles/Story.aspx?StoryID=9391&pagenum=3

Brothers In Arms is automatically disqualified for that dopey-ass "sports bloopers" "Walk of Life" video that MTV decided must be played 73,000 times a day.

So, Born In The USA it is.

i was just talkg to someone abt the lol sports bloopers video

such a profoundly strange concept

dudes i feel u that paul simon is an asshole or whatever but that doesnt make graceland suck

But it isn't SUPPOSED to be easy!!!!
But the fact of the matter is, it is easier. My point is: it's more a testament to a songwriter's melodic virtuosity when they are able to compose interesting, surprising melodies over uninteresting, predictable chords.

But I thought more was more.

Graceland way way waaaaay out front of this pack for me, which I attribute to the range of really excellent people involved/contributing material. Los Lobos' story about getting burned on the credit for "The Myth of Fingerprints" is great.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

My point is: it's more a testament to a songwriter's melodic virtuosity when they are able to compose interesting, surprising melodies over uninteresting, predictable chords.

I admire a lot more those who manage to add interesting and complex chords to an otherwise straightforward and relatively banal melody.

especially because of Simon's rampant ripoffery:

the rampant ripoffery is what makes it great! I don't give a shit about Bruce or Knopfler's songs. I don't really give a shit about Paul Simon's material by this point either, but he sure had good taste in who to rip off.

I admire a lot more those who manage to add interesting and complex chords to an otherwise straightforward and relatively banal melody.

Mmm'kay. You have any great pop songwriting examples of this in mind?

I love big sounding productions, but the production on Born in the USA sounds really obnoxious to me... the drums in particular sound really shitty.

i love graceland

ive never listened to the other two records tbh!

There's a drum solo at the end of the title track of Born in the USA that would sound great if it wasn't smothered in too much reverb.

The so-called (Bruce) album collection that came out a couple/few years ago is really tastefully remastered imo. the drums sound WAY less cardboard box-y, and in fact great

Graceland was robbed

Springsteen fans are so weird. I feel like I understand his appeal but it's just not for me at all.

yea i have always wanted to devote the time to learn why he is so beloved but he's never interested me

I have a (probably entirely unfounded) suspicion that you have to be from the east coast to dig him. I don't know any native Californians that give a fuck about him for ex.

i'm from nevada and i love bronze sprongstein

Greil Marcus is Californian till he dies. Xpost

what will he be after he dies?

compost

the dead have no country

For me, this goes:

Brothers in Arms > Graceland > Born in the USA

I prefer The Rhythm of the Saints over Graceland, to be honest.