Ashlee Simpson: Emo or Oh no?

In 2005, it's a bit late to try to tack a definition on "Punk Rock," but in the same way Ashlee Simpson's vile product isn't, say, Metal or Polka, it isn't Punk. Regardless of your perception on the genre's/movement's origins (US vs. UK, etc.), Punk Rock was a reaction against, and a decideldy more organic one at that. Ripped T-shirts, Chuck Taylors, goofy hair colors, leather jackets, etc. -- they may be nice and all, but they don't make one "Punk." Ashlee Simpson is a living, breathing Mr. Potato-Head, all trussed up in conventionally "punk" finery, but her music, her message, her aspirations for stardom are strictly teen pop to the bone AND. NOTHING. MORE. If Mariah Carey started wearing a Damned t-shirt and spray painted a big Anarchy symbol on her next album, that wouldn't make her a punk either.

Regarding the Bromley Contingent (x-post), they were essentially a bunch of kids who were around when Punk was a going concern (and yes, they included Sioux, Idol and Steve Severin, among others).

For a start, why not take your patronizing tone and shove it way up your ass and swivel? Moreover, I never used to the term "revolution". It was purely pop culture (labeling merely "showbiz" is a bit too crass for my taste). Call it was you like -- showbiz, entertainment, expression, etc. -- it had a bit more substance to it.

So did Smokey Robinson and Marvin Gaye!

Sure, but it's more important in some kinds of music than others. A Siouxsie who can't hit notes would be fine; a Donna Summer who can't hit notes would be dreadful. I think Ashlee's music tends toward the latter.

A week late, I thought I'd point out that "Breakfast in America" is the song you're looking for.

As for Ashley, "Boyfriend" is an enjoyable radio confection, but I disliked the singles from the last album, and what galls me about her in general is the overarching feeling that, as with Paris Hilton, a lot of people are putting a lot of work into her career and she's not one of them.

Ha! I decree this thread closed.

Nope, but if she had a song that went "Someday the one you gave away will be the only one you're wishing for/Boy you're gonna pay 'cause I'm the one that's keeping score," it might. (Oh wait, she did.) (And I'm talking punk in the "Hey Joe"/"96 Tears" sense here, obviously.)

>Call it was you like -- showbiz, entertainment, expression, etc. -- it had a bit more substance to it.

In what way? Is it because the punk bands wrote songs and then signed record deals? I don't think that necessarily adds up to "substance" all by itself. If it was their lyrical subject matter, then you can keep "substance," because frankly I'd rather listen to songs about sex and cars (Motörhead, AC/DC, ZZ Top) than songs about anarchy. (And yes, Motörhead have written political songs, but they've written more songs about pussy than politics, to their great benefit and ours.) The only thing more boring than hearing someone yammer on about politics (particularly when the assumption is that the listener shares the speaker's politics) is hearing someone sing about them. If I'm gonna do that, I'll at least keep it interesting by listening to songs with political messages I disagree with (that is to say I'd rather listen to Skrewdriver than some lefty, if only because it'll be fun to see if the Nazis can convince me of the validity of their argument, whereas with someone I'm disposed to agree with I'll probably wind up picking apart all their logical fallacies that arise from trying to cram a civics lecture into a crude rhyme scheme).

Didn't you even watch her damn show? Whatever. Continue fooling yourself if that makes you feel better.

Luther Vandross had a voice from the heavens and a brain in his head.

So did Smokey Robinson and Marvin Gaye!

Sure they did. I just don't like Motown and find it all slavishly overrated, but that's simply my taste.

I apologize a little for the patronizing tone of my earlier post, but your stance just seems so...teenaged and dumb, and I know you're older than me.

Keep it up.

In what way? Is it because the punk bands wrote songs and then signed record deals?

Way to oversimply things. And no, that's not what I meant. Many of the Punks (and, summarily, many of the post-punk bands) actually had THINGS TO SAY with their music and were more interested in NEWER, FRESHER, SIMPLER, MORE INNOVATIVE AND/oR MORE DIRECT WAYS OF SAYING IT. It's not simply a matter of record deals (the `Pistols, the Clash, etc. etc. were all on major labels, yes I know).

The "substance" issue comes in because many of these bands (note that I am not saying "all," as there was a hefty share of the class of `77 and beyond that had nothing to say) were doing something that was a refreshing break from the norm in both sentiment and sound. You can say I'm wearing rose-tinted glasses and looking back fondly, but the case remains that you don't remember what radio sounded like in the late `70s, I do.

I don't think that necessarily adds up to "substance" all by itself. If it was their lyrical subject matter, then you can keep "substance," because frankly I'd rather listen to songs about sex and cars (Motörhead, AC/DC, ZZ Top) than songs about anarchy.

You don't find me decrying those things. And I was probably listening to AC/DC and Motorhead when you were but a stain on your father's underpants.

(And yes, Motörhead have written political songs, but they've written more songs about pussy than politics, to their great benefit and ours.) The only thing more boring than hearing someone yammer on about politics (particularly when the assumption is that the listener shares the speaker's politics) is hearing someone sing about them.>

It wasn't just politics. Consider the Buzzcocks -- not a political song in their entire catalog, but their self-deprecating, non-gender specific love songs (playe with the same spite and verve as the Ramones and the `Pistols et. al) was a completely fresh approach. There are countless examples

If I'm gonna do that, I'll at least keep it interesting by listening to songs with political messages I disagree with (that is to say I'd rather listen to Skrewdriver than some lefty, if only because it'll be fun to see if the Nazis can convince me of the validity of their argument, whereas with someone I'm disposed to agree with I'll probably wind up picking apart all their logical fallacies that arise from trying to cram a civics lecture into a crude rhyme scheme).

Well, this is all about you and your own perceptions now, so I have no retort to that. Skrewdriver -- even beyond their indefensible political leanings -- made bog-standard, uninspired music.

In any case, Ashlee Simpson has nothing interesting to say. She has nothing new to say. She does not seek to push any envelopes or strip things back to their basics. She is merely sculpted and dressed to fit a now well established and tired little mold. Cheeze-whiz aside, it may very well be perfectly well-crafted teen pop. Just don't call it Punk Rock. That's ultimately all I'm saying.

-- xhuxk (xedd...), November 9th, 2005.

God I'm going to regret getting into this, but is the lyrical content all that made "Hey Joe"/"96 Tears" a version of punk? I thought it was about how it stripped the MOR orchestral frippery and returned to something more audio verite. (Whether that automatically translates to a more direct, honest, "punk" lyrical expression is another question, and I make no claims there.)

Anyway, I'm not getting indignant like Alex, 'cause there's nothing wrong with teen-pop, but I would agree Ashlee S. isn't punk because the first wave of punk rock (as someone, I think it was Phil, specified) was (self-)consciously different from what was on the radio at the time. (Not that those bands wouldn't have taken radio play if it had been offered, but still.) Whereas Ashlee's got post-Green Day radio rock down to a T.

This all made a lot more sense before I 1) threw back some excellent cognac and 2) started typing.

I remember too. It was great, as great as any radio I've ever heard. And lots of times (compared to, say, "Ballroom Blitz" or "Highway to Hell" or "Hot Child in the City" or "Rock and Roll Hootchie Coo" or "Free For All"), punk rock really didn't sound all that different.

xpost

x-post

I certainly don't ever remember hearing "Ballroom Blitz" on the radio.

And Rick Derringer has always sucked.

TS: Rick Derringer on Weird Al's "Eat It" vs. Eddie Van Halen on Michael Jackson's "Beat It"

ISTR Sweet getting on the radio a lot in the late 1970s (at least Fox on the Run and Love Is Like Oxygen), but my family was stationed in Europe at the time, so that may have been more a function of weird AFN programming than anything else.

Right -- but I was singling out the stuff that sounded more like punk. (Maybe I should have said "Hey You" by BTO? Or, hell, "Headknocker" by Foreigner then.) Anyway, lots of the disco and soft rock on the radio was great, too, often way *better* than punk rock - especially the disco. And "Ballroom Blitz" got played all the time in Detroit, believe me.

you know, a year ago, id argue with alex on this one, but very simply, he's right. It really is nothing more than pre-packaged half assed songwriting and nothing more, at least FROM her. If you want to project some sort of loftier concept on to her brand of pop-"punk"-rock, then go ahead, but the material just doesn't back it up. the first record has some pretty good guilty pleasures, songs i wouldn't turn off on the occasional times i listen to the radio anymore, but like alex's view on motown, thats just taste, or my lack thereof. the new album sucks tho.

i think the more interesting thing going on with Ashlee is the earnestness issue. For all the disney/WB promotion, i think (and this is projection and NOTHING MORE) that the poor girl really WANTS to be credible, and probably deep down recognizes and hates the PR machine that brought her fame. but given the fact that shes lazy and not very smart (a simpson after all), she seems to have no idea on how to get herself out of her dilemma. Or then again, maybe not.

xp

But anyway, you guys do understand that there were *lots* of different radio stations, so you could switch to the one that was playing the *good* song, right? Well now you do.

In the first season of her reality show, she was utterly adamant about not being "pop", got mad at one of her producers for giving her too much of a pop sound, but "not pop" to her probably means something like Offspring or The Used or something - not that you can be sure, seeing as how she's never seen talking about music other than her own. But I think that given her background it's not unreasonable to say that she probably can't conceive of any way of doing music outside that kind of showbiz world (dissatisfied as she probably is with certain aspects of it).

By the way, my Ashlee opinions are almost entirely based on her MUSIC. I have only seen her on TV a couple times. (I much preferred her first SNL appearance to her second one.)

Mine too; but I reckon that from the very fact of making a reality TV show out of the making of one's first album a few conclusions can be drawn. For example, my above point, that you're meant to feel like you're getting the real Ashlee, straight from the gut, and that anytime it's made clear that you're not, you're entitled to say "what the hell?"

Late-'70s soft rock: "I'd Really Love to See You Tonight"! Also The Little River Band! "Slow Dancing"!

Debby Boone
Andy Gibb
Barbra Streisand
Mary MacGregor
Marilyn McCoo & Billy Davis Jr
Glen Campbell
Bill Conti
Alan O'Day
Leo Sayer
David Soul
Shaun Cassidy
Barry Manilow

i like this point, alex...

"Many of the Punks (and, summarily, many of the post-punk bands) actually had THINGS TO SAY with their music and were more interested in NEWER, FRESHER, SIMPLER, MORE INNOVATIVE AND/oR MORE DIRECT WAYS OF SAYING IT"

But I'm not sure if this defines punk apart from disco - the difference might be in what the two genres had to say, but... seems like a littl' too much mythologizin' for any one 'style' of music. then again, you could say that i'm still a stain on my father's pants.

King Harvest vs. Starbuck

Really good Andy Gibb singles: I Just Want to Be Your Everything, (Love is) Thicker than Water, Shadow Dancing, Time is Time, maybe Desire. All of 'em on pretty much the level as great Bee Gees singles of the time, though nobody seems to remember. (Robin Gibb's "Boys Do Fall in Love" from 1984 may well trounce every one of them, though.)

One thing to remember is that the radio did not just mean #1 singles; sure, some of those were bad. Big whoop. Again, that's why we were born with opposable thumbs -- To change the radio station to something better. You can't judge an era just by its *worst* songs.

Also, I left out "So In To You" and (especially) "Imaginary Lover" by Atlanta Rhythm Section (AOR guys, maybe, sure, but way more A/C). And "Lonely Boy" by Andrew Gold. 'Twas a great era for onanism songs.

>is the lyrical content all that made "Hey Joe"/"96 Tears" a version of punk? I thought it was about how it stripped the MOR orchestral frippery and returned to something more audio verite.<

Not really sure what MOR frippery is being stripped here (especially with "Hey Joe", which dates back way before garage punk). These songs weren't rebelling against any other *music*, as far as I can see. But they were definitely getting revenge on the people they were pissed off at. (I still don't believe '70s punk's main point was reacting against other music, either -- if that *was* its main point, it really *was* shallow, which I don't think it was. And as I've said repeatedly, the other music wasn't so bad anyway; it didn't *need* to be rebelled against. And I say that as somebody who loves punk rock. But either way, this may be the first time I've ever heard somebody suggest that *'60s* punk was rebelling against other music. Mostly it was kids imitating Beatles/Stones/Yardbirds, crassly attempting to get on the radio. You can't rebel against *Sgt. Pepper's* if it doesnt exist yet. But maybe I'm missing something here. And yeah, when crate-digging Creem critics and reissue compilers started remembering "96 Tears" and "Hey Joe" in the '70s, I'm sure *they* were reacting against what they perceived as an MOR turn in rock. At least they said they were. But that was the fans, not the bands.)

I dunno, that sounds pretty naive to me! Wouldn't the mere fact that she's willing to have a TV show make it *less* likely that you're getting the "real" her? TV is acting! Including reality shows. So is recorded music; we're not talking some blues octagenarian serenading his dead dog on the porch. But the TV part only compounds the issue. Why would you expect a TV star to be anything *but* an actor? Either way, I'm still not sure how that would change how her music sounds. The CDs are completely the same whether she had a reality show or not.

So there's no distinction between punk and rock that has some attitude?

And besides, Ashlee's songs sure aren't *long* -- on the new album, they range from 2:34 to 4:15; is that any longer, on average, than the average Sex Pistols or Clash, much less Public Image Ltd, song?)

Okay, but she doesn't have any that are like 30 seconds long. Or a minute and a half. Whereas loads of punk bands do. I think of breaking the four minute mark as getting a little long.

Chorus to "Boyfriend" isn't reggae, of course. It's a sing-along pop-rock anthemic chorus.

1 Holidays in the Sun Cook, Jones, Rotten, Vicious 3:20
2 Bodies Cook, Jones, Rotten, Vicious 3:02
3 No Feelings Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 2:49
4 Liar Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 2:40
5 Problems Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 4:10
6 God Save the Queen Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:18
7 Seventeen Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 2:02
8 Anarchy in the U.K. Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:31
9 Submission Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 4:12
10 Pretty Vacant Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:16
11 New York Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:05
12 E.M.I. Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:10

It's just something I noticed when making a punk compilation for my lil' bro-in-law, onto which I was able to cram far more than the usual number of songs in the 80-minute span of the disc.

(And anyway, in listening to the Sex Pistols now I'm no longer feeling the scabrousness and throat-retching thrill, now that the scabrousness and the throat retch have been assimilated to normality by 50 million subsequent bands.)