Gay Marriage to Alfred: Your Thoughts

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gays should go back to reminding us that they're not totally safe to straight people

original dixieland jaas band (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 10 October 2008 23:40 (fifteen years ago) link

I am using that post as evidence that when you die and your estate is getting divided, ptero

nabisco, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:41 (fifteen years ago) link

remove "that" from sentence

nabisco, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:41 (fifteen years ago) link

the second "that"

nabisco, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:41 (fifteen years ago) link

ABORT SNAPPY POINT ATTEMPT REPEAT ABORT

nabisco, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:41 (fifteen years ago) link

i dont have an estate b/c i am so RADICAL & QUEER

i float above your petty economics like a revolutionary fairy!!!

pterodactyl, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:43 (fifteen years ago) link

Face it, breeders. We're just not cool enough to hang with the queers.

NJ Sucks (libcrypt), Friday, 10 October 2008 23:44 (fifteen years ago) link

i float above your petty economics like a revolutionary fairy!!!

No, just a powerless one...

Charlie Rose Nylund, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:45 (fifteen years ago) link

as opposed to if i had the incredibly powerful right of marriage? o please, bless me with yr straight privileges!

pterodactyl, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:46 (fifteen years ago) link

take us to your magical land free from historically misogynist institutions

original dixieland jaas band (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 10 October 2008 23:50 (fifteen years ago) link

welcome to lesbian separatism my friend

you will feel weirdly at home here.

pterodactyl, Friday, 10 October 2008 23:51 (fifteen years ago) link

Crutis, are you considering becoming a lesbian?

LATIN CAPITAL LETTER LJ (libcrypt), Friday, 10 October 2008 23:55 (fifteen years ago) link

I mean, some gays aren't safe to straight people, and some straights aren't safe to gay people, and some are, and some of each want to get married, and some don't, etc., etc.

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:02 (fifteen years ago) link

sure... it just is disappointing that the whole queer movement focuses around marriage when (it seems to me) there are so many more relevant & important issues. & i recognize it's a PR move, but for who?

i teach HS... i hear kids getting called faggot & dyke several times a day; see kids struggle vs in tolerant parents; watch pregnant teens slowly drop out. & then i'm supposed to rally behind the very (i think) middle class issue of gay marriage? like that's gonna make an iota of difference to the 16 yr old queer kid in my class? like thats gonna help transgendered people or poor people or anyone who isnt already doing ok?

i mean god bless the middle class & everything but it just isnt a movement i feel particularly inspired by.

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:08 (fifteen years ago) link

marriage is gay

sad man in him room (milo z), Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:13 (fifteen years ago) link

i totally support gay marriage. equal rights, this is HUMAN BEINGS we're talking about!

internet person, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:14 (fifteen years ago) link

It's not going to make a difference to them now, maybe; it surely will make more of a difference to the queer kid in your class ten, twenty years from now. Did Stonewall make a huge difference to the queer kid in a Seattle classroom in 1969? Maybe, but probably not right away.

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:17 (fifteen years ago) link

(Also many European countries that have legalized gay marriages have also seen a steady decline in all marriages -- though of course correlation is not causation.)

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:18 (fifteen years ago) link

i think stonewall (insofar as it was about people's right to exist as queer) was significantly more radical than gay marriage. and as such--perhaps trickled down to the rest of the queer community in a more meaningful way.

i buy this philosophy pretty much: http://www.beyondmarriage.org/index.html

i mean, i get the argument--that thru middle class gay folks becoming more mainstream the freaks and faggots and transpeople and whoever will benefit. but it's kinda a lame movement anyway. it's like--sure, mainstream 1970s white feminism helped out women of color, too. but it was still pretty wack the way that went down.

(not to draw inapplicable parallels or WHATEVZ)

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:21 (fifteen years ago) link

I feel like such a hypocrite about gay marriage because I have zero interest in being married myself, I've been in a relationship now for sixteen years and I'm psychically as married as I could ever be to another man, but the state has no business confirming/denying/permitting what is already true.

That said, the painful way that gay marriage's untouchability united McCain and Obama was truly cringe-worthy, and it reminded us all watching at home on TV that the whole "we'll give you whatever you want, just don't call it marriage" line that they BOTH trotted out is some seriously "separate but equal" segregationist bullshit that stinks to fag heaven.

Neotropical pygmy squirrel, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:21 (fifteen years ago) link

with that said, if granting marriage to the homos can somehow magically undermine the institution of marriage, i am all for it!

xpost

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:22 (fifteen years ago) link

to pigmy: yeah, i agree totally. it's funny cuz when they asked that Q at the VP debate i was like, "oh who cares" & then by the end of biden's answer i was like, "YOU PIECE OF SHIT HOMOPHOBIC ASSHOLE!!!!" (let alone whatever palin was spewing about her 'tolerance')

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:24 (fifteen years ago) link

Yah, most queers I know are thoroughly modern and blase about their own queerness, kind of just getting on with particulars really, and then you see displays like that and realize that you're still a "touchy issue" for all these unseen millions.

Neotropical pygmy squirrel, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:27 (fifteen years ago) link

ugh that 'tolerance' garbage was reprehensible

the valves of houston (gbx), Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Yeah, I didn't expect him to come out swinging against it so strongly. It made me sad.

Maria, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:28 (fifteen years ago) link

And Palin's answer wasn't nearly as bad as her record in Alaska (regarding benefits).

Maria, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:28 (fifteen years ago) link

It's kind of perfect that marriage would be the topic that introduces this phony pretense of "I'm tolerant personally, but . . . ". That is in fact the Zizek formula for ideology- "je sais bien, mais . . ." ("I know very well, but all the same. . . ")- I say that it makes sense that this would be brought up in relation to marriage because marriage itself is almost always compromised by precisely this kind of performance for the Others who are watching- "We aren't religious, but Grandma really wants us to get married in church so we're doing it for her"- the ideology is perfectly happy to ride piggyback on precisely such supposed displays of "disbelief" since the outward form gets to stay the same.

Neotropical pygmy squirrel, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:30 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah it was kind of jarring!

it's funny tho, it's like how homophobia is lurking there somewhere. like how i grew up in a nice liberal northeast town and could have told you from age 5 that there was nothing wrong with being gay & still found myself horribly ashamed & in denial & not having met a single queer person by the time i was a teenager.

& maybe that's part of the argument behind gay marriage, that by normalizing it you can fight that sort of secret homophobia, otherness. but for some reason that argument doesn't really hold much sway for me.

(xpost)

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:32 (fifteen years ago) link

Face it, breeders. We're just not cool enough to hang with the queers.

― NJ Sucks (libcrypt), Friday, 10 October 2008 23:44 (Yesterday)

aren't you 40 and a big radiohead fan?

Matt P, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:38 (fifteen years ago) link

sorry pterodactyl but gay people like you make me wish i wasn't.

Matt P, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:42 (fifteen years ago) link

40 yes; Radiohead is good but not my fave in any category.

LATIN CAPITAL LETTER LJ (libcrypt), Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:42 (fifteen years ago) link

i.e. get over yourself x-post

Matt P, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:43 (fifteen years ago) link

I wasn't being sarcastic. Just goofy, Matt P.

LATIN CAPITAL LETTER LJ (libcrypt), Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:45 (fifteen years ago) link

am i reading it right that you're against gay marriage cause you personally don't want to get married/aren't down with the whole concept?

Granny Dainger, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:45 (fifteen years ago) link

well thats kinda mean!

cuz i'm not particularly inspired by gay marriage ?

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:45 (fifteen years ago) link

Ptero, I wasn't saying that gay marriage is as "radical" as Stonewall. You were talking about how effective it is for your student. I don't think either made much of a short-term difference in the lives of most of the contemporary queers, no matter how legendary Stonewall is treated now.

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:49 (fifteen years ago) link

Also, I am totally willing to have Biden play the "give them equal rights but don't call it marriage" game if the alternative is Obama losing the election. I mean, ffs!

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:51 (fifteen years ago) link

yo--i'm not against gay marriage!

i just think it's a lame issue to focus a queer movement around. b/c it doesnt address the actual issues/problems of a majority of queer people. & it also doesnt address the underlying inequality of the whole marriage debate, which is that whether or not you have health care or can immigrate or have visitation rights or whatever shouldn't depend on yr sexuality or who you're sleeping with or if you're sleeping with anyone!

AND i object to it cuz i think it's a fucked up heteronormative, misogynist institution that i honestly dont understand why anyone gay OR straight would want to participate in.

@ to casuistry--naw, i agree with you re: stonewall. wasnt trying to argue, was just kinda typing my thoughts aloud...

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:52 (fifteen years ago) link

"well, not if it goes closer and closer towards redefining the traditional definition of marriage between one man and one woman and, unfortunately, that's where those steps sometimes lead"

Examples please? When and where has this happened?

I know, right?, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:55 (fifteen years ago) link

Well, I still think there might be some things to salvage in that institution. You're not signing up for 1950s marriage, after all!

Plus I'm not sure what issues you're thinking of, but health insurance, hospital visitation rights, and parental rights have been fairly central issues to queers for a while now. Unless you think being queer should automatically mean you don't want kids? I mean, I don't want kids, but I don't think it's because of my queerness -- that just secures that I don't have any "happy accidents".

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:55 (fifteen years ago) link

I just find the word tolerant really offensive, like, I feel like a bad smell is what you tolerate.

I know, right?, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:56 (fifteen years ago) link

blondiegurl143 (1 hour ago) 0 Reply | Spam
ohmygodd.
this country is so fuckked up.
all love is the same.
my lesbian mothers will probably not be able to live to see gay marraige legal across the US. maybe even i wont.
this is so fucking ridiculous.
traditional marriage?
bullshit.

I know, right?, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:56 (fifteen years ago) link

T., did you come here because of the "gay" or because someone mentioned "Zizek"? ;-)

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 00:57 (fifteen years ago) link

I was really uninterested until then!

I know, right?, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:00 (fifteen years ago) link

Great bit of Zizek upthread for anyone who's interested!

I know, right?, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:01 (fifteen years ago) link

@ i know right (examples): connecticut!

casuistry: i dont think people shouldnt have/want kids, and i think middle class queer couples should certainly have the right to adopt kids. which is an issue that i actually feel slightly more mobilized by than gay marriage.

but i think health care, hospital visitation rights, parental rights, immigration rights, etc, shouldnt have anything to do with who youre sleeping with. a 20 yr old living with his older mother has just as much a right to all those things, in my mind, as a queer couple. a woman living in an apt with 3 friends who wants to raise a baby there should have just as much a right as a queer couple. or a straight couple.

i think marriage as the inevitable goal of all relationships limits our imaginations to other possibilities, other forms of kinship. & in poorer communities, i think those 'other' forms of kinship are, by necessity, much more common.

pterodactyl, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:01 (fifteen years ago) link

Your examples maybe don't make sense? A 20yo does have visitation rights to his mother? A single woman who has a baby doesn't have anyone else who needs legal authority over decisions in the baby's life?

You're also acting as if marriage rights impede other types of relationships, the way some people think gay marriage somehow impedes straight marriage, even though there's no sane way it would.

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:10 (fifteen years ago) link

I think this is all getting a bit pointlessly idealistic, and to a point, ptero, you're right. But maybe gay people don't all share your dream of queer otherness, maybe they just want everyone to start out on the same page. I mean, its gays who want this, not really anybody else, do you not think that undermines your implication that this is about appeasing conservative white middle class straight people? I mean, they're pretty much the ones saying no, aren't they? Or maybe it's just that there's a lot of middle class white gay people now who don't want to be so different from their friends. I mean, I don't think that we're all falling over ourselves to keep it queer, most people just want to keep their head down and get by and not really worry about redefining or subverting or whatever all the time. Like, I'm pretty whatevs about the whole thing, though, mainly because I think weddings are pretty naff.

I know, right?, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:11 (fifteen years ago) link

I mean I don't disagree with the things you're for, I just disagree with the things you're against. If that makes sense.

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:11 (fifteen years ago) link

Also I think my point is that straight people also engage in relationships that aren't "marriage". Like, plenty of them do. Perhaps the same proportion as queer people who do?

Casuistry, Saturday, 11 October 2008 01:12 (fifteen years ago) link


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