quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a rolling new york times thread

Mueller, who has a Ph.D. in chemical physics and a sideline in daffy showmanship in the persona of “Dr. Bones,”

what a stereotype

He spends some of his spare time calling newspaper editors looking for publicity for the unsanctioned sport.

and it works!

lol

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/26lawyers.html?_r=1&ref=business

After he lost his job as a television reporter two years ago, Derek Fanciullo considered law school, thinking it was a historically sure bet. He took out “a ferocious amount of debt,” he said — $210,000, to be exact — and enrolled last September in the School of Law at New York University.

“It was thought to be this green pasture of stability, a more comfortable life,” said Mr. Fanciullo, who had heard that 90 percent of N.Y.U. law graduates land jobs at firms, and counted on that to repay his loans. “It was almost written in stone that you’ll end up in a law firm, almost like a birthright.”

Good lord.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/08/26/business/26lawyer01-650.jpg

"I keep looking for this green pasture on here! They said it would be here!"

He looks like the work study I had to fire because he went psychotic and threatened one of the librarians.

The American Psycho route to success.

Like Ms. Figurelli, many students say that for the first time, they are considering and seeking work with government and public-interest groups.

Oh the agony.

http://tkfiles.storage.live.com/y1pn3iPCe2784hGENMC0F59kNjaWoKtdak1iDkvAoeMqgrCV2vn43NGugnJMPVBPvhmj-7kU1WpmL48MX2pwnmXpQ

Hahah

"Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom"

They may be the "juggernaut" of NY, but I've never heard of them. That's the kind of law-firm name someone would make up on the spot in a sitcom script meeting, then have it rejected for sounding too improbably stupid.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/23/skadden-merger-takeover-business-cx_df_0123skadden.html

uh, seems like a real place to me?

Yeah, Skadden Arps is like THE M&A law firm, and has been for several decades. Not just in NY, but in the world.

Skadden, Arps is definitely real! xpost what Pancakes said!

“It was thought to be this green pasture of stability, a more comfortable life,” said Mr. Fanciullo, who had heard that 90 percent of N.Y.U. law graduates land jobs at firms, and counted on that to repay his loans. “It was almost written in stone that you’ll end up in a law firm, almost like a birthright.”

Apart from the very bad choice of the word "birthright," I have sympathy with this. Top law schools are really expensive and not exactly all fun and games; the draw of going through them is that you may well get to work 80-hour weeks at a huge firm for the loads of money it takes to pay off that debt; I think it does genuinely suck right now for people coming out of those schools and finding nothing, jobwise, especially since it disrupts the usual course of those careers.

I mean, that can be less of an "I'm fundamentally entitled to these things" mentality and more of a "holy crap I put all of this energy and debt into walking down this path and suddenly the end goal has disappeared"

people pursue dumb goals all the time but few get indulged with such steep debt to do it. as always, the personal kvetching is less important that the systemic problem -- how can so many schools promise so much, charge so much, and deliver so little? what's the benefit to their students, or to the rest of us?

the word "birthright" is 93% of why i posted that quote

If you want to see "I'm fundamentally entitled to these things" go check out the comments on abovethelaw.com. Bunch of insufferable whiny ass titty babies.

Top law schools are really expensive and not exactly all fun and games

yeah, the "birthright" is a big weird gaffe, especially since the sense of the whole quote seems to be that he thought going to law school was the thing that would make it all better -- people vs being-precise-in-use-of-language, what can you say

I mean, this is just a trickle down thing - my friends who are going to not top law schools are in a lot more shit than these Yale law ppl who have to settle for not-their-#1-choice law job

who had heard that 90 percent of N.Y.U. law graduates land jobs at firms, and counted on that to repay his loans.

the other 7% was this quote (especially the "had heard" part--who knows if it's actual anecdotal information or just the way the NYT writer phrased it) + taking out 250K of debt to reach the green fields of stability.

and yeah, this is a trickle down thing--it sucks for these people who took big risks and loans, but it sucks all over, and lots of lawyers are out of work

btw with this --

how can so many schools promise so much, charge so much, and deliver so little

the answer is that your upper-tier law schools mostly have delivered, no? quite reliably, even in proportion to the price/debt? it's not that they generally don't deliver, it's just that right now is a relatively unlucky moment to be coming out of one, if your goal is a high-salary start at a big firm around here.

agreed, yes, that the same is true for people coming out of lots of law schools, really schools in general, for the moment.

(I don't know if I've talked about this here before, and it's sort of a bullshit generalizing statement, but one trait I feel like you can maybe identify in the "type" of people who go to top law schools is, like, markedly high standards about themselves and achievement -- something that can be both admirable and also weird -- and probably part of the flipside of that can be a much deeper concern about failures or obstacles.) (I know this is a gross dumb generalization, I'm just tossing it out there as a feeling.)

yeah, i'm not going to mourn a breakdown of the pay-for-placement racket of high-ticket law schools tbh

xpost. Sorry for not being clear. I didn't mean I didn't believe it was real - just that I'd never heard of them and the name made me laugh. But I laugh at excessively long names of law firms and ad agencies all the time. I'm easily pleased like that.

(I don't know if I've talked about this here before, and it's sort of a bullshit generalizing statement, but one trait I feel like you can maybe identify in the "type" of people who go to top law schools is, like, markedly high standards about themselves and achievement -- something that can be both admirable and also weird -- and probably part of the flipside of that can be a much deeper concern about failures or obstacles.) (I know this is a gross dumb generalization, I'm just tossing it out there as a feeling.)

couldn't this pretty much go for top-anything schools? (at the very least, that has to explain a % of that attitude, maybe not 100%)

Dorian, I can't remember which one but there's a London firm that had one of those approving 'ooh, look what amazing snobs these people are' features in ES Magazine (there's no end in sight for this formula of feature, see also, 'greasy foreigner with designs on London society, from whence comes your cash and is your daughter attractive?' formula) and one of the bullet points was that people who sent resumés to them had best remember to use an ampersand in the name instead of 'and', or the application would get binned. I'd imagine Arps, Skadden has that with the comma.

People take many, many paths to law school. A friend who's a Senior Counsel in a top firm had every expectation of a good job because of his experience in the workplace, followed by a PhD, followed by a JD. People like him will always be in demand; it's the guys like the ex-reporter who are involved in a crapshoot.

haha depends on the phd

^True, but am being vague on purpose. Dude is in your DC, figuring out how to get you your healthcare.

tell him to work harder

(iatee, sure, I think it goes for a few different types of study, but not really all: someone with the kind of standards I'm talking about strikes me as unlikely to wind up doing, e.g., a Ph.D. anywhere in the humanities, you know? a person in the top of her field in, like, classics probably has different standards of achievement than the law-school kid who's like -- and again, I find this really admirable in many cases -- "why would I not make money or hold power? why would I not do well and be successful and have a valuable education that allows me loads of independence and wherewithal and social capital?")

(^^ wait, sorry, that's a caricaturish way of putting it -- often it's just that such people often have a slightly higher standard of expectations/achievement than I do, not an open-ended or one-sided one, and higher than mine is not always saying a whole bunch)

If you are smart enough and already have the standards to apply and get into a good school, you are completely missing the point if you do not even once engage yourself with the options available to its graduates.

iatee, he is working damned hard! Wish I could say more.

But I laugh at excessively long names of law firms and ad agencies all the time. I'm easily pleased like that.

Haha, the practice of my childhood doctor was Irving, Lucker, Goldberg and Lampey, Physicians.

i used to like finkelstein, levine, gittelsohn & tettenbaum

My favorite real lawfirm name is Low, Ball and Lynch

i dunno nabisco... on a pure I Hold Myself To Exacting Standards basis i can think of folks in humanities programs who look at the JD as slightly more prestigious than the MBA but still basically a technical degree suitable for folks who didn't quite have the intellectual firepower for academia.

I'm not saying they're right, but, y'know...

(iatee, sure, I think it goes for a few different types of study, but not really all: someone with the kind of standards I'm talking about strikes me as unlikely to wind up doing, e.g., a Ph.D. anywhere in the humanities, you know? a person in the top of her field in, like, classics probably has different standards of achievement than the law-school kid who's like -- and again, I find this really admirable in many cases -- "why would I not make money or hold power? why would I not do well and be successful and have a valuable education that allows me loads of independence and wherewithal and social capital?")

It's different, for sure, but I think there is a certain core similarity when it comes to failure/success.

For example, my gf is a v. v. high achieving student who may (or may not) go for a French PhD - and if she does so, if she doesn't get published in the top journals / fails at whatever measure of success French PhDs judge themselves on - I know she'll feel exactly as bad as any YLS student who doesn't get the clerkship they wanted. Different standards? Sure. But they're fairly analogous still because there is a 'best' and if you're not there, you're miserable. So I do think that these JD/MBA high achieving types have this same basic attitude + the money+power thing you mentioned - I just don't think their "deeper concern about failures or obstacles" is amplified by the prestige/money. If you've always been the best / highly successful, it doesn't matter what you do (artist, musician, lawyer, etc.) - if you're taken out of your comfort zone of success, you're gonna be miserable.

I guess the thing is, if your object of achievement is in a niche field and/or confined to the Ivory Tower, there tends to be a bit more humility, than those seeking money and power.

i don't think that necessarily obtains.

no, that's true ... I guess it would be more accurate to say that the academics are more likely to engage in false humility than the prominent lawyers ...

xpost - haha oh yes, that is a whole other variety of standards/expectations, sure

iatee, yes, I don't disagree -- although I guess the idea was that I do get the sense of a different type of exacting life standards (often having to do with more concrete yardsticks of "success") that drive people toward law, sometimes. yeah, being driven toward particular goals is the same whatever those goals are, but there seems something maybe particular here to the spread of goals that animate some people toward law schools with firm expectations of that $200k firm job at the end? (I'm not trying to imply it's all materialistic or about money/power for anyone -- I'm lacking the words to pinpoint the exact thing.)

haha maybe just ignore me until I figure out what I mean

a question - are med students/doctors as "bad" in this regard as law students/lawyers? I'm just trying to think about other occupations that involve this sort of academic gauntlet with high monetary rewards.

Obviously PhDs don't expect the kind of salaries JD/MBAs do, but I wonder if they have a similar sense of "Obviously I'm going to get a tenure-tracked position since I got myself into this top-notch school and did all this work." Which, I agree with Nabisco, is not always exactly the same thing as a "sense of entitlement" because there's an element of hard work + doing what you were told were the right things to do to make something happen. Top law schools are sold as such a sure bet that to not get a job after making median grades would be like losing your house after making all your mortgage payments.

nab, word you bring to mind for me is 'aspirational' - there's this socially-rooted aspirational thing that seems unique to law school (and would apply to people at lower ranked law schools too.) It's like, this is our ticket out of the low/middle classes? And I guess having *that* dream crushed adds a layer of misery to the 'high-achiever doesn't get what they want' misery.

in the humanities at least, prospective Ph.D. candidates are warned many many times that there's no "obviously" about it, but i think on some level there is an unrealistic sense that the outcome can be controlled if you just get into a good enough program.

xpost

"Obviously Northern Louisiana Women's Christian A&M will be all over themselves to offer me their tenure track Comp Lit position. I mean, how many other PhDs from top-10 programs could possibly have applied? It's $38K a year in the bank."