Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Interestingly I don't really feel qualified to respond to this thread any more, despite owning a load of Zappa. I haven't listened to any of it in more than a year.

I think my favorites used to be Apostrophe'/Overnite Sensation (esp. "Montana" - "I think I'll raise me up some DENNIL FLOSS"), the guitar box (esp. the track with the bouzouki), parts of Joe's Garage (mostly for the guitar sound, cf. 'Watermelon in Easter Hay', and because I get an enormous kick out of hearing the Ceeeeentral Scrooooaaaatinizer), One Size Fits All, much of Zoot Allures and Lather (I get an infantile kick out of the Stravinsky namedrop on "Titties 'n' Beer", but that's just a perk).

- following the awesome tribute night to zappa and beefheart at THE CLUNY - where was the fuckin' WIRE ? - another night is planned on thursday 17th may at newcastle arts centre - featuring ex- zappa/beefheart drummer jimmy carl black and the muffin men, zoviet france, hounds of the hill and many others - zappa and beefheart classics fucked over bigstyle - like susan george in straw dogs !

Tadeusz says astute, but I've never thought FZ was over-and-above astute — just, y'know, run-of-the-mill astute. Never heard an FZ commentary that I hadn't already heard elsewhere (not nec. heard elsewhere in pop /rock, but in Letterman or Alex Cockburn, or just somewhere... ): I think the prob. is he NEVER turned his laser-eye on himself and the wackness of his dreams/fears. "Astute" somewhat excepted, all the good words TS uses are true — but (to me) so what. FZ is just too guarded, so that's how he makes me.

Anyway, my own thoughts: I tend to like Zappa's earlier stuff most (just about everything he did with the Mothers of Invention), plus a great deal of his late seventies/early eighties post-Mothers stuff. Faves would have to be Apostrophe (as someone upthread said, so gleeful), Freak Out!, Hot Rats, Joe's Garage, and Läther (because it's so over-the-top, has all of the best bits from Sheikh Yerbouti and Orchestral Favorites, and that cow on the cover with the Zappa goatee-and-beard). Guilty favorites would be Sheikh Yerbouti (great pop songs and awesome guitarwork mixed with pure wank and pointlessly stupid lyrics) and Thing Fish (mainly because it brings together everything that was good and was bad about Zappa). Largely agree that he tapered off towards the end, when he was releasing albums largely because he could (and because he'd gotten that damn Synclavier doing music by himself, without anyone or anything to keep him or his sketchier ideas in check).

As for the astuteness -- I guess some of that's from my having read a lot of his interviews as well as his autobiography. His lyrics are a grab-bag of the funny, the astute, the obscene and the flat-out stupid ... even he admitted that a lot of his lyrics and plots (esp. Joe's Garage) were stupid.

'Hot Rats' is good though, and is it 'Suzy Cream Cheese' (?). Actually, Zap ain't so bad. I mean the guy did twiddle the knobs on 'Troutmask' right? It's just he's so fucking odd; but for the sake of being odd, you know. Whereas with Loonheart, you know that he is genuinely fucking out there, Zappa is always trying so damn hard.

With this is mind: Dud.

So... Nobody here has a sense of humor unless they're STONED??

All of you hate fun and sweet sweet guitar solos. REVIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssjVez9UA4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew3Dq82Q1bQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCG4Caw7IIc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_i_HVBD9ks

Alternate '73 version of Montana with better video quality but lower sound. KILLER solo.

ahhhhh thanks

whoa i just clicked on that "last zappa interview" video--really sad

fuckin ian underwood!

I haven't brought myself to watch that yet, but there are 5 sections of the Zappa bio from BBC on there too, which I highly recommend.

That video of "You are what you is" made the 8 year old me extremely nauseous when it originally aired.

I just read about this morning--no recollection of it playing any festivals here, and I can't find a listing on IMDB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7figLnhYZ44

”both” is the answer to the this thread

haha, otm

So much material that there are extremes of both.

Full catalogue to be reissued by Universal this year, apparently including some new mastering jobs. (By Joe Travers? No details given.)

My first question is whether Gail and the ZFT retains the right to keep on mining the extensive vaults and putting stuff out themselves.

hmmm, i seem to recall that the mixes of a lot of those 90s reissues had been futzed w/ by Zappa? wonder if these are the "original" mixes or whatever.

RIP Rykodisc.

I hope they're the "unfutzed" versions.

I dunno - the original version of "We're Only In It For the Money" is pretty horrible, really

sonically, I mean

Would like somebody to explain me the difference between remixing and remastering in the context of this news. When FZ did the CD releases of Ruben and the Jets and WOIIFTM with new bass & drum tracks, it's safe to say he did new mixes. There are fairly radical differences in LP and CD mixes of Hot Rats. But I imagine that most of the CD catalogue consisted of digital transfer of the original vinyl masters, right, without much fiddling around?

You have it right, Remastering is tracking down the best possible format of the final mixes of an album (in Zappa's case probably 1/2 or 1/4 inch analog tape reels and adding equalisation and/or compression & limiting to get the best overall sound and dynamics onto whichever format the recording is going to end up on. Of course the potential abuse of the process is a big issue in the digital age.

Remixing is loading the original unmixed master tapes onto whatever the relevant playback machine would be and repeating the process of mixing the album from scratch.

The regular cds of Freak Out have a bunch of digital echo Frank added in the 80s. The reissue entitled MOFO has the og mix.

I remember reading that he apparently dicked about with recordings other than Hot Rats and WOIIFTM too, that's where the UMRK Approved master tag came in.

I dunno - the original version of "We're Only In It For the Money" is pretty horrible, really

the version on cd with added slap bass is a whole new level of awful though

hmmm, i seem to recall that the mixes of a lot of those 90s reissues had been futzed w/ by Zappa? wonder if these are the "original" mixes or whatever.

"futzed" is putting it mildly.

Reissues

In 1984, Zappa prepared a remix of Cruising with Ruben & the Jets for its compact disc reissue and the vinyl box set The Old Masters I. The remix featured new rhythm tracks recorded by bassist Arthur Barrow and drummer Chad Wackerman, much as the 1984 remix of We're Only in It for the Money had featured. Zappa stated "The master tapes for Ruben and the Jets were in better shape, but since I liked the results on We're Only in it For the Money, I decided to do it on Ruben too. But those are the only two albums on which the original performances were replaced. I thought the important thing was the material itself."[2]

After the remixing was announced, a $13 million lawsuit was filed against Zappa by Jimmy Carl Black, Bunk Gardner and Don Preston, who were later joined by Ray Collins, Art Tripp and Motorhead Sherwood, increasing the claim to $16.4 million, stating that they had received no royalties from Zappa since 1969.[2]

In 2009, the original mix of the album was released as part of a compilation entitled Greasy Love Songs.[6]

zappa was so nuts about that sort of thing, it seems. i remember reading something about the creation of "shut and play your guitar" (i think) where he would put guitar solos from, say, 1974 into a recording from 1981.

He would lift guitar tracks from live recordings and drop them into studio based stuff, he did a whole track by layering elements from different recordings, Tink Runs Amok? He called it Xenochrony iirc.

XENOCHRONY! Exciting. Bands that never were.

"Rubber Shirt," from Sheik Yerbouti:

SPECIAL NOTE: The bass part is extracted from
a four track master of a performance from Goteborg,
Sweden 1974 which I had Patrick O"Hearn overdub on
a medium tempo guitar solo track in 4/4. The noted
chosen were more or less specified during the overdub
session, and so it was not completely an improvised
"bass solo." A year and a half later, the bass track was
peeled off the Swedish master and transferred to one
track of another studio 24 track master for a slow song
in 11/4. The result of this experimental re-synchronization
(the same technique was used on the Zoot Allures
album in "Friendly Little Finger") is the piece you are
listening to. All of the sensitive, interesting interplay
between the bass and drums never actually happened ...
also note, the guitar solo section of the song "Yo' Mama"
on side four was done the same way.

One of my favorite Sheik Yerbouti tracks.

I was just to talking to a big Zappaphile firend of mine, and he mentioned that some of the other "futzing" was undoing vintage edit jobs done to fit lp time constraints. He cited these two (and was only partially wrong):

Wiki on Hot Rats:

In 1987 Zappa remixed Hot Rats for re-issue on Compact Disc. "Willie the Pimp" is edited differently during the introduction and guitar solo. "The Gumbo Variations" has 4 minutes of additional material including an introduction and guitar and saxophone solo sections which were cut from the vinyl LP version. Piano and flute which were buried the LP mix of "Little Umbrellas" are prominent on the CD. Other differences include significant changes to the overall ambiance and dynamic range. The original mix was reissued in 2009 as a limited edition audiophile LP by Classic Records.

Wiki on Weasels...:

The CD version of the album features different versions of "Didja Get Any Onya?" and "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Sexually Aroused Gas Mask", which featured music edited out of the LP versions. Some of this extra music was used (in a different studio recording) as the backing track for "The Blimp" on the Captain Beefheart album Trout Mask Replica, produced by Frank Zappa.

the version on cd with added slap bass is a whole new level of awful though

― zappi

I was trying to youtube some songs off it a few years back, and the only versions that came up were from this, which I hadn't been aware of before, and I was seriously appalled. Especially since the original WOIIFTM is one of my all-time faves.

What he did to "Ruben & the Jets" was criminal

But it was his music, I suppose he could do what he liked with it

I was happy when the Family Trust rectified the Reuben redux last year.

But it was his music, I suppose he could do what he liked with it

― Tom D (Tom D.)

the crimes of george lucas ('90s on)

I was happy when the Family Trust rectified the Reuben redux last year.

They did? I must have missed this!

They released it as Greasy Love Songs.

http://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/2010greasylovesongs.html

The version of WOIIFTM that I first heard was the one with the new bass and drums, so for a long time I thought that was the original version. When I finally heard the real original I was quite shocked at the difference. I still hear the altered one as being the "right" one even though I know that's not right.

I used to think there were things to like about the 1984 mix, but...naaah. I don't think I've ever heard the original vinyl. I'd like to check it out sometime if there's a digital rip floating around somewhere, and compare it to the 1993 remix/remaster.

The awfulness of Thing-fish is only fully appreciated on physical media, because the booklet with all the pictures, stage directions etc. is a big part of it.

i mean it's not actually interestingly bad. there are a lot of albums that are bad in interesting ways and this is, like. about as interesting as "summer in paradise".

― Kate (rushomancy), Monday, April 1, 2024 10:34 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah I'm finding this out now. always assumed this album would at least be somewhat entertaining or subversive or even "so bad it's good" in a way but it's not any of those things. it just sounds like really bad satire. it's like the worst episodes of South Park but four times as long. most of it comes off like it was written by an 11-year old. like its hard to believe that this was written by someone who's actually had sex before.

theres only one level on which this could work, if it was a deliberately awful album designed specifically to get out of a record contract. there are a few examples of that happening and you can't really hold them against the artist, it's just business. I mean with nearly all the music being shitty retreads of past work that's always what I assumed this was! But it's not...Zappa wanted people to hear this!

The storyline was enough to make me steer clear. I’ve never heard it.

I might be interested in an interview with Ike Willis talking about the album. But I still wouldn't be interested in listening to it.

I know two of my Mom's friends, women in their seventies and eighties, who like Zappa. One was a flower child, the other an eighth grade teacher, both seemed to like the satire in a Lenny Bruce/Marx Brothers anarchy sort of way that maybe doesn't resonate later on because so many subsequent rock artists have eclipsed it. Maybe knowing Zappa as part of the pop landscape rather than a cult artist changes something. There was an era when he was much more a character in the pop landscape with a couple of different approaches going on, like a Clapton of Neil Young.

now I've nearly gotten to the end of this thing I'm thinking Zappa wasn't just dismissive and hateful towards women, he might've been actively terrified of them as well. as though one of them really let him have it over some transgression a long time ago and its just something he never forgot.

Never planning to listen to this, I suspect the skeleton key to the meaning of the record is when you realize Thing-Fish is a pun on "Kingfish".

the gender (and racial) politics of robert crumb with none of the self loathing

omg

the gender (and racial) politics of robert crumb with none of the self loathing

― your original display name is still visible (Left)

imagine being frank zappa and not hating yourself

I think he was riven by insecurity if not self-loathing.

Ya think? Endlessly lashing out humorlessly at simplistic targets and acting like everyone else is stupid. Hmm.

Sorry, wrong thread.

https://media.tenor.com/1jI6hMtarW4AAAAM/marvel-is-it-though.gif

Ha, not really, but it might have been.

a thing people in this thread are not grasping (understandably) is that zappa shows were really really fun and a "happening" and seeing those bands play that complex music live were really cool to see. i think that's where he got a lotttt of his fans and your moms friends who are hold hippies.

* like your mom's old hippie friends.

(i kno cuz my parents and their friends talk about going to see him a lot and how OUTRAGEOUS it was but own 0-just a few of his records)

I saw him on what turned out to be his final tour in 1988 and yeah, it was a good show. He had a twelve-piece band that included a five-piece horn section; the thing that stuck out the most at the time was their cover of "Stairway to Heaven," on which the horn section played the original guitar solo, as a lead-in to Zappa's solo.

I only had the Broadway the Hard Way CD but parts of that performance are amazing. could be his best ever live band.

I had never listened to it before just now. All the dated political references get a bit wearing, but at least they outnumber the misogynistic ones, I guess. Band is super tight, but I don’t think I’ll be relistening.

Try Make A Jazz Noise Here. Same band but almost entirely instrumental.

That one I have heard. It’s good in places, I like him revisiting some oldies, but then there’s a lengthy track of endless sampled snork noises.

I think every double disc album he released could be trimmed 50%, except Uncle Meat.

What would I get out of this that I wouldn’t get out of listening to an actual jazz band. Or going to see some classical thing, the symphony, the opera etc.

Probably already asked this one before, rhetorical question, don’t really want to know the answer that much, pvmic etc.

What would I get out of this that I wouldn’t get out of listening to an actual jazz band. Or going to see some classical thing, the symphony, the opera etc.

Party atmosphere, rock and roll gymnastics, cultural commentary and audience participation.

Oh wow, thanks!

I hate all that stuff, so I think I'll pass, thanks

Well, not quite, but mostly

No, I think you were right the first time.

🥸

yeah go listen to an actual jazz band tbh

zappa is dead _and_ he smells funny

What would I get out of this that I wouldn’t get out of listening to an actual jazz band.

you'd get something you won't get from, say, a bop combo, but George Duke's solo records of the 70s deliver basically all the same thrills you can get from Zappa stuff with only a fraction of the DO NOT WANT factor. however it should also be remembered that late in his life he released this, that this album's title and cover were a choice he made.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/George_Duke-Dukey_Treats.jpg

Stockholm Syndrome!

Lol!

Try Make A Jazz Noise Here. Same band but almost entirely instrumental.

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Tuesday, April 2, 2024 2:14 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

IMO I think this is the best thing he released from the best tour he did. Incredibly jealous you saw them on that tour, unperson.

As a hater, I guess I might say the same

Virtuosi on recordings sometimes ill-used but live is a different story

The other '88 tour albums (Bway the Hard Way and Best Band You've Never Heard) are filled w/ gorgeous stuff, too, but there's still a lot of Zappa schtick to wade through. Make a Jazz Noise has always struck me as his his most straight-faced (aside from all orchestral stuff) – minimal silly stuff, minimal caustic songs, just a really, really tight band doing a lot of Zappa's best live material.

There's a 5LP or 3CD box set of the Mothers live at the Whisky in 1968 coming out in June, but what's interesting about that is this, from the press release:

All vinyl was cut from hi-res digital file by Chris Bellman at Bernie Grundman Mastering in 2023 and is being pressed at Optimal: Media in Germany on BioVinyl, a new environment-friendly formulation and sustainable product made from bio-based PVC (polyvinyl chloride). The petroleum previously required for PVC production is replaced by recycling used cooking oil or industrial waste gases. Through the use of renewable energies and recycled raw materials, CO2 emissions are significantly reduced. More information about BioVinyl available here: https://www.optimal-media.com/en/news/biovinyl/

This is the first I've heard of this process. Anybody know more?

Huh. Interesting indeed!