Taking sides: Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus vs his Philosophical Investigations

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I think I better start drinking some alcohol soon.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link

Samirah Makhmalbaf to thread (specifically The Apple, a film in which twin girls are kept seperate from everybody but each other by their over-protective father [their mum died in childbirth as I remember], and as a result of this they developed her own language, which is about as near to a private language as possible).

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:29 (twenty years ago) link

She shd come to thread anyway for bign generally PUnXXor. I just saw her newbie, set in Afghanistan. Same age as Britney (and me). 'The Apple' is one of the great recent films. Newie pretty damned good.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:32 (twenty years ago) link

Never trust anything a man didnae want published is a rule of thumb I live by.

That said the idea of language as an agreed on set of ever shifting (slightly) rules moves the argument on what ideas and thoughts refer to out into the public domain. It is no longer a problem in my head alone, it is a problem for society. Which doesn't exist and vanishes in a poof.

Private = solo, solitaryt. Two is the basis on non-private. Apple is good tho.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:33 (twenty years ago) link

yeah sorta kinda: however "subjective" and "objective" are very confusing and poorly formed ideas (they're technical AND obsolete philosophical jargon, really)

ie descartes's proof required that god exists and is not dicking around ie his "pure subjectivity" is grounded in a faith-based "objectivity" - "pure subjectivity" can't get you started unless you assume accurate shareable information is already installed prior to any encounter and/or exchange of any kind with anyone else

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link

(x-post)

(Possibly the first time ever that Britney Spears has been mentioned in a thread about Wittgenstein.)

― Jonathan Z., Friday, 7 November 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link

Never trust anything a man didnae want published is a rule of thumb I live by.

Kafka, Shakespeare...

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:37 (twenty years ago) link

EXACTLY.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:38 (twenty years ago) link

I'm glad mark helped clarify that. I literally do not understand concept of objectivity -- partly because I dipped in only a little bit into philisophy at a-level and don't know enough. But I can't get my head round it. Which is my prob with late Marx.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:40 (twenty years ago) link

It is something less than heaven
To be quoted Thesis 1.7
Every time I make an advance;
if the world is all that the case is
That's a pretty discouraging basis
On which to pursue
Any sort of romance.
I've got a proposition for you;
Logical, positive and brief
And at least it could serve as a kind of comic relief:
(refrain)
Let P equal me,
With my heart in command;
Let Q equal you
With Tractatus in hand
And R could stand for a lifetime of love,
Filled with music to fondle and purr to.
We'll define love as anything lovely you'd care to infer to.
On the right, put that bright,
Hypothetical case;
On the left, our uncleft,
Parenthetical chase.
And that horseshoe there in the middle
Could be lucky; we've got nothing to lose,
If in thse parentheses
We just mind our little P's and Q's.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:43 (twenty years ago) link

Don't understand it becoz you think that it cannot exist (in ways it has been defined to you) or don't understand because it has not been defined well. Objectivity as some sort of omniscient subjectivity is a concept I can just about grasp, but objectivity as a display of REAL ACTUAL TRUTH troubles me no end.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:44 (twenty years ago) link

I don't know how concepts of that sort 'exist', I suppose. Does objectivity exist objectively. That sort of thing. It doesn't keep me awake mights.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:46 (twenty years ago) link

Or nights.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:47 (twenty years ago) link

Fair cop. Concepts of that sort of course exist subjectively as part of the language game, but it is clear that the meaning is only ever fixed by concesus (one of the reasons why the overlap of a technical term and a conversational colloquialisms such as objective and subjective are so undesireable).

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:50 (twenty years ago) link

Ah -- intersubjectivity then. I always love ILM threads like 'shd music reviewing be objective?'. But I sort of know what they mean -- early Suede OBJECTIVELY sound a bit like 'Aladdin Sane' era Bowie, I suppose. But. It's a battlefield.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:53 (twenty years ago) link

(wht is tht JtN?)

― brutal (Cozen), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:56 (twenty years ago) link

No, that's love you are thinking of.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:57 (twenty years ago) link

What else is there to think of?

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:02 (twenty years ago) link

(It's a song from this book Coz.)

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:12 (twenty years ago) link

seven years pass...

i feel like i understand the philosophical investigations much more than the tractatus. i can read each section and follow it from what i've read - whereas the tractatus i found very confusing. i'll have to go back and try again though, i haven't read the tractatus as a whole in about four years.

― jeevves, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 08:22 (thirteen years ago) link

seven years pass...

https://marginaliabooks.com/books/tractatus-logico-philosophicus/

― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 18:44 (five years ago) link

four years pass...

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/04/06/a-nervous-splendor

Bad temper and extreme nervous tension were endemic in the family. One day, when Paul was practicing at one of the seven grand pianos in their winter home, the Palais Wittgenstein, he leaped up and shouted at his brother Ludwig in the room next door, “I cannot play when you are in the house, as I feel your skepticism seeping towards me from under the door!”

― Beatles in My Passway (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 11 April 2023 16:42 (one year ago) link

I like this idea of Wittgenstein as a great judge of what you should read

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTE6WcbtImQ

― jmm, Tuesday, 11 April 2023 16:48 (one year ago) link

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