Oum Kalthoum, Om Kolthom, Om Kalsoum, Omm Kalsoum, Omme Kolsoum, Oom Koolsum, Oum Kalthoum, Oum Kalthum, Oum Kalsoum, Oum Kaltsoum, Oum Kolthoum, Oum Koulsoum, Oum Kulthum, Oum Kulthume, Um Kalthoum,

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is ya msaharny any better?
that's all there seems to be at the moment...

robin (robin), Thursday, 15 May 2003 23:37 (sixteen years ago) link

Sigh. Ya Msaharny is just okay, too, in my opinion. It's quite late in her career. Of course, a lot of the late stuff is still really popular, but these aren't necessarily the best of that lot.

Yam Saharny is a great song in its own right, I just am not crazy about her version (which is the original).

I would recommen Hob Eh more over the other two, but I realize that download time may make that impossible.

I'm listening to El Hob Kolloh now and she sounds a bit out of place in the midst of this music, though it has its moments.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 15 May 2003 23:45 (sixteen years ago) link

well i'll get hob eh for the moment so,and see what i think
i should have my computer sorted out over the next week,so i'll go to that site and listen to some of the files there as well...

robin (robin), Thursday, 15 May 2003 23:51 (sixteen years ago) link

Hob Eah is from 1960, though the recording you have might be from later. The one I have sounds later than that to me, for what that's worth. It's composed by Baligh Hamdi.

Rockist Scientist, Friday, 16 May 2003 00:00 (sixteen years ago) link

(I wish I could say I liked her singing more on this one.)

Rockist Scientist, Friday, 16 May 2003 00:01 (sixteen years ago) link

I scored a 5CD Oum Kalsoum box thing for 25 bucks at Tower the other week. It's great--the sound quality is ass as is the packaging but the sheer volume means I've been surrounded by her voice a lot lately and have been beginning to notice more nuance. I know very little about Arabic music but I figure listening lots is the best way to learn.

adam (adam), Friday, 16 May 2003 02:31 (sixteen years ago) link

adam, what's in that set? (Are there any titles in English?) Is it the EMI Arabia set with "Diva" in the title? I've never seen an actual box set of her work before.

Rockist Scientist, Friday, 16 May 2003 12:27 (sixteen years ago) link

I’ve seen it but never picked it up, called Anthologie and released on Sonodisc.

Volume 1
1. Azkouriny 33:37
2. Salo kaos al fella 31:13

Volume 2
1. Hadeeth al rouh 26:23
2. Ghareb ala bab el raga 22:26

Volume 3
1. Woleda el hoda 56:54

Volume 4
1. Gadet hobak leih 39:18

Volume 5
1. Al nile 27:04
2. Nagh el borda 22:56

H (Heruy), Friday, 16 May 2003 13:24 (sixteen years ago) link

These are personal favorites:

Salo kaos al fella
Woleda el hoda
Nagh el borda

Judging by the track lengths, it looks like the box set versions of the latter two would be live recordings. I have only heard the studio recordings of these songs. They should still be good. For a long time I didn't like these two songs though. The melodies are very counterintuitive from a western point of view, and possibly even from an Arab point of view, since these were considered difficult songs at the time.

I am not sure I've heard the others, though I suspect they would be good. They seem to all be from around the 40's.

It's possible that more recent, individual, recordings of these songs would have better sound quality, but these are pretty old recordings to begin with.

Rockist Scientist, Friday, 16 May 2003 13:43 (sixteen years ago) link

listening to hob eh now
i like what i've heard,so far
the music is really good,i can see how her voice is a bit of an acquired taste,she sounds like she could do with clearing her throat every now and again..
i'd definitely like to hear more,anyway...
i'll have to have a look for some of your recommendations...

robin (robin), Friday, 16 May 2003 14:26 (sixteen years ago) link

Her voice got deeper and deeper as she got older. It's still an acquired taste, but the version from about 10-15 years earlier is a little more appealing (to me anyway). I find the singing here a little overblown at times. She's still got incredible force at this point, but has lost some subtlety. (I have no idea what I'd think if I could understand Arabic though.) I agree that the music is good, and there are some high points in the performance as well.

Rockist Scientist, Friday, 16 May 2003 14:33 (sixteen years ago) link

two months pass...
ilove very very very much Om Kalsoum
for me she is like a religion
ho can answear me
bye

najib ibn khayat, Monday, 28 July 2003 20:27 (sixteen years ago) link

What is your question?

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 28 July 2003 20:31 (sixteen years ago) link

My lovely friend bought a record by Um Kalthum in Brussels. it is very good. yes, perhaps she is the best singer of the 20th century.

[the record is WAY better than the REALLY LAME Fairuz record I bought; I am no worrying that Fairuz is actually rubbish, and the good record I have by her is an aberration]

DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 3 August 2003 22:39 (sixteen years ago) link

DV, happy to hear that. What Kalthum song(s) was it?

What I think about Fairuz is that she is a great singer, but doesn't have the best judgment about what material to use. Basically anything from the 80's forward is iffy. But the styles in which she works are extremely varied. But I bet there is more than one CD worth material by her that you would like. I can't be as helpful with her, since I don't know her nearly as well as I know Kalthoum. (Of course, that unevenness is partly why I don't know her work as well.) What Fairuz did you get? Have you heard Soiree Avec Fairuz? The sound quality is really poor, but the music is quite good. That's cheating a little since it's more classical than most of her work.

Al Andalous, Sunday, 3 August 2003 23:57 (sixteen years ago) link

I have to admit, I do get tired of Fairuz's voice after a while. It's perfect, but maybe too perfect? But I haven't been in the right mood for her lately. Back in the fall I was listening to her more than Oum Kalthoum, if I remember correctly.

Al Andalous, Monday, 4 August 2003 01:44 (sixteen years ago) link

the one Fairuz record I have has "Lebanon Forever" as its english title. It sounds very Arab classical, unlike the rub record ("Wahdon - Kifak Inta" in the Arabian Masters series) which is mostly in softy jazz style.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 4 August 2003 10:17 (sixteen years ago) link

I like the first three tracks on Wahdon a lot, but the last two are horrible. Kifak Inta seems pretty pointless to me. I think they are both by her son, Ziad Rahbani. Ziad Rahbani's idea of introducing "jazz" elements into Arabic music seems to focus mostly on smooth jazz. But don't you like the upbeat songs at the beginning of Wahdon (or aren't they on that Arabian Masters CD)? Anyway, this is all stuff she's done from the 80's on. You are better off with the 60's and 70's things (not that it's always easy to find out which is which).

Al Andalous, Monday, 4 August 2003 12:01 (sixteen years ago) link

I didn't like the first tracks either. I think there were one or two good songs in the middle somewhere. but yeah, the record as a whole bears the taint of her idiot son.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 4 August 2003 13:33 (sixteen years ago) link

three months pass...
I recently read A.J. Racy's Making Music in the Arab World: The Culture and Artistry of Tarab, which helped clarify some of the things I like about this music (and added a lot of useful background).

In his chapter on the specifically musical aspects of this music, he introduces the term "heterophony" (which was new to me): "As a cultivated form of artistry, heterophonic interplay is a primary feature of takht [small ensemble] music. In practice, heterophonic texture exists in two closely related formats, an overlapping type and a simultaneous type. The first occurs when a leading music part, typically a vocal improvisation, is accompanied, for example, by an instrument such as the qanun. In this case, the accompaniment 'echoes' the leading part at a slightly delayed pace, or in a rather 'out of sync' fashion. The second type applies mostly when ensemble members produce slightly varied renditions of the same musical material at the same time. This happens when takht instruments perform the same basic compositions together, but with each one rendering it differently through subtle variations, omissions, ornamental nuances, syncopations, anticipations, and so on. . . . [I]n Umm Kulthum's live recordings from the 1940s and 1950s. . . [i]n certain middle sections. . . heterophonic activity becomes particularly prominent, a suspenseful and musically focused mood engulfs and audibly moves the singer's avid admirers." Racy also comments on how heterophony has become less common in Arab music, due at least partly to the fact that it became more difficult as the takht grew into a small orchestra with an entire string section.

"Tarab artists demonstrate a striking proclivity toward moving loosely with the beat, as comparedto performing strictly on the beat, for wandering about without losing track of the underlying temporal structure. They seek a desirable balance between metric orderliness and rhythmic freedom. . ." Racy discusses this in more technical detail, but it's hard for me to excerpt or summarize, since I'm still getting a handle on it.

It's sad to me that while improvisation was making a come-back in the west, via jazz (primarily), Arab music was moving away from it, in emulation of western classical music.

Incidentally, Racy makes clear the respect in which Fairouz is a break from the tarab oriented tradition: "Meanwhile, increasingly transformed and internally varied, the musical mainstream had to vie with more recent and more novel-sounding musical expressions. One example was a Lebanese urban popular style which, pioneered in the late 1950's by the Rahbani Brothers and associated with the celebrated female vocalist Fayruz, dervied elements from the local folk repertoire, Western music, and traditional Arab music."

Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 04:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Incidentally, I don't think the shifting away from tarab is entirely inspired by emulation of the west. There are some internal forces at work as well. (I guess there would have to be internal forces at work even if it were entirely a matter of emulating the west, but I'm too sleepy to be more exact.)

For example, I read--SOMEWHERE, but I can't put my hands on it--a quote from Oum Kalthoum criticizing her 40s-50s work for being too exclusively concerned with tarab, and not putting enough emphasis on putting across the text (which was very important to her). While I suspect this might partly be a matter of denial on her part that her best years were behind her, I also think there is a certain amount of Arab suspicion of tarab (which is most commonly translate as "ecstasy" but doesn't have an exact English equivalent), and not just among fundamentalists. The Lebanese composer, Marcel Khalife (a Christian, incidentally), expresses misgivings of music which gives itself over so completely to emotion, and has actively sought to keep a balance with more intellect involved. I wish Racy would write something about this, since when I write, it's largely a matter of wild speculation based on a few pieces of information.

Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 05:00 (sixteen years ago) link

RS what do you know about Laure Daccache?

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 22:06 (sixteen years ago) link

Zilch.

Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 23:58 (sixteen years ago) link

I just listened to a couple online audio files. She sounds pretty good. I checked The Voice of Egypt and she's mentioned a few times in that in a way that put her at a fairly high level as a singer. There are certain things she does with her voice that remind me of Asmahan's singing, but I can't say that she sounds that much like any one particular singer.

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 00:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Some of this music is nice. Apparently she was known as a composer as much as she was known as a singer, which can't be said of too many Arab musicians of the time (or even now?). Oum Kalthoum wrote a couple songs, or so, but didn't pursue it. (As far as I know, I haven't heard them.)

I'm listening to these mp3s. I like "el ward" and "gharidou" better than the first three.

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 02:04 (sixteen years ago) link

Thanks, amateur!st, she sounds like quite a fascinating individual. And there is something a little different about the style of some of these songs, though I can't put my finger on it. I am assuming most of these are by her.

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 02:19 (sixteen years ago) link

Umm Kulthum was named after one of the Prophet Muhammad's daughters. "Umm" means "mother" and is an honorific title given to women who have children--they become known as "mother of [son's name"--but, in this case, her name was given at birth to honor this daughter of Muhammad.

Check out "A Voice Like Egypt," a film about Umm Kulthum based on Virginia Danielson's research.

fatima, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 02:32 (sixteen years ago) link

RS, re Laure Daccoche, I'm glad I pointed you in a happy direction. I can't listen to MP3s on any of the computers I work on here, so I'm still in the dark. Apparently she has one obscure CD on a French label but I can't find it for sale here or on the internet. If you can find it let me know.

(Do the MP3s on that page add up to enough to make a CD? Not that I would know how to do this.)

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 10:02 (sixteen years ago) link

They do add up enough for a CD, but I'm not sure you can save them (which shows how much I know as well).

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 13:00 (sixteen years ago) link

I found a PC I can listen to them on. They're good!

Now let's see if I can figure out how to copy them onto a CD, because I'm just borrowing this computer for a moment.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 13:32 (sixteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Ray Rashid, of the Rashid company that distributes Arabic music, wrote the following in his response to my questions about Daccache:

I met Laur Daccache in Egypt about seven years ago, I was invited to the Woman's league of Egypt, which was headed by a friend of mine and Mrs. Hosni Mubbarak, and the people said to me, they heard that Laur Dacashe was a singer but she had no records or tapes available in Egypt, so they had to rely on my word that she was a great vocalist in the early 1950's[.] It was strange to have to vouch for a great singer like her, Today finding her songs on Cd are rare indeed, like her big song Amanti Bellah (I believe God).

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 13 December 2003 23:24 (fifteen years ago) link

Poor Laure Daccache, consigned to being a footnote on an Oum Kalthoum thread.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 13 December 2003 23:27 (fifteen years ago) link

One day this thread and those like it will be one hell of a resource, sir!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 13 December 2003 23:42 (fifteen years ago) link

What do you mean "will be," Ned? ;)

Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 14 December 2003 07:39 (fifteen years ago) link

Dear Rockist Scientist,

Today I went to a record store and saw a discount 5-CD box set of Oum Kalthoum, simply entitled "The Diva." It was on the Next Music label. Do you know anything about this and whether it's worthy? It seems like perhaps it could be a good entry point.

Thank you,

Amateur!st

amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:13 (fifteen years ago) link

Also where can I find "Ya Zalamny"?

amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:16 (fifteen years ago) link

Ya Zalamny is pretty easy to get. Try www.maqam.com or www.rashid.com.

If it has these songs:

Volume 1
1. Azkouriny 33:37
2. Salo kaos al fella 31:13

Volume 2
1. Hadeeth al rouh 26:23
2. Ghareb ala bab el raga 22:26

Volume 3
1. Woleda el hoda 56:54

Volume 4
1. Gadet hobak leih 39:18

Volume 5
1. Al nile 27:04
2. Nagh el borda 22:56

Then I recommend it. (Those were posted by H. above.) I don't know every song, but I know some of them, and this is from part of the best part of her career. The only possible downside is that some of the recently reissued separate CDs for these may be remastered and sound better, but frankly, the sound quality is not going to be fantastic for these years.

If it's a collection of the five volume EMI Diva series that has several songs on each CD, I can't personally recommend it, because that's a little earlier than I like. The experts still consider it good material, but I just don't get it myself.

Anyway, if there are more than three songs per CD, then it's probably from earlier than what I'd suggesting listening to. I just looked and I see there are a couple possible box sets this could be, so I don't know exactly what we are dealing with.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:32 (fifteen years ago) link

Ya Zalamny/i

You can probably find it at amazon or cduniverse, but it will almost invariably cost a lot more.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:36 (fifteen years ago) link

This isn't the same 5-CD box set as the one noted above! IIRC each CD had more songs, with lengths of around 7-11 minutes each. Although there is a live disc with just two songs I believe. So perhaps it's early material.

I'm somtimes confused as to whether you are referring to albums or songs in your recommendations above.... Or are they one and the same thing essentially? The Gilbert Joseph in Paris has a large collection of O.K. CDs (although I imagine there are Arabic stores aplenty that would have more, and for less money, but I wouldn't know where to find them) from which I might choose.

Can anyone burn a CD of that Laure Daccache stuff for me? I've had no luck finding the CD...

amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:37 (fifteen years ago) link

A lot of the recordings are pretty long. My copy of "Ya Zalamny" is couples it with one other song. The "Ya Zalamny" I see currently available is by itself. It's not really a matter of albums, just very long songs, some so long they have to be by themselves, most long enough to fill out a skimpy CD at least.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:41 (fifteen years ago) link

Actually it's "Ya Zalimni" SD01B81 on that page.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 20 December 2003 21:45 (fifteen years ago) link

I checked the time last night, and "Ya Zalamny" is only slightly longer than a half hour, so I have to admit it makes a skimpy one-song CD, but it is worth it.

Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 01:24 (fifteen years ago) link

four months pass...
http://www.ocolere.ch/oum_khalsoum.jpg

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 21:01 (fifteen years ago) link

This thread arising again and again somehow makes me feel somewhat better about life and the universe, it does. Despite my still not having in my collection not a single record by Oum Kalthoum, Om Kolthom, Om Kalsoum, Omm Kalsoum, Omme Kolsoum, Oom Koolsum, Oum Kalthoum, Oum Kalthum, Oum Kalsoum, Oum Kaltsoum, Oum Kolthoum, Oum Koulsoum, Oum Kulthum, Oum Kulthume, Um Kalthoum, Um Kolthoum, Umm Kulthum, Umm Kalsoum, Umm Kalthum, Ummu Kulthum or Umm Kulthume.

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 12 May 2004 21:11 (fifteen years ago) link

It makes me feel boring. (I did just get into listening to Robaiyat el-Khayam last night though, and I liked it as usual.)

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 21:15 (fifteen years ago) link

three months pass...
I just wanted to reiterate that much of "Zikrayat" (which I'm not sure I've mentioned on this particular thread) is really very beautiful, from the beginning of the vocal section. (I still find the instrumental inroduction kind of boring here.) Another great 1950's recording.zik

Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:21 (fifteen years ago) link

I feel so guilty that I have only two albums in my possession by Oum, tho I do adore here.

I have somewhatthe same feeling about her as i about classical music - ITS SO GOOD! but also once you start you can never stop so its a lil frightening.

H (Heruy), Friday, 13 August 2004 00:46 (fifteen years ago) link

I'm fortunate in that I don't like classical music or even most jazz. Of course, that's also kind of unfortunate.

Anyway, I don't recommend feeling guilty about it.

Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 13 August 2004 00:55 (fifteen years ago) link

I feel guilty that I bought a copy of The Voice of Egypt about five years ago and I still haven't read it.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:08 (fifteen years ago) link

It's a really good book, but it helps to already be very very interested in Umm Kulthum (although it certainly relates to some broader cultural issues). The introductory material is dryer than the rest of the book, from what I remember.

I wasn't aware of all the Oum Kalthoum guilt. Now I feel bad, like I'm responsible for everyone's guilt.

Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:13 (fifteen years ago) link


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