Post a controversial music opinion

idk Rush has like this fierce rhythmic backbone that Yes mostly lacks, I say this as someone who prefers Yes but likes both

possibly not controversial opinion: Yes was not well served by having multiple drummers

my fave thing about phish is when you tell a fan that you don't like the records/songs you've heard and they say *oh don't listen to the records you have to hear them live* and then you say you have listened to live shows (or parts anyway) online and they say *oh no you can't listen to them online you have to GO to a show* and then you say would you please leave now wtf? because nothing says great band like a fan telling you not to listen to a band's records. in the end its good advice though.

Potentially controversial opinion - Yes might have gone somewhere unbelievable if Billy Cobham had joined them after Bruford quit instead of Alan White. Although I guess Mahavishnu were up and running by then so never going to happen. And if Wakeman had been replaced by Vangelis, as was vaguely attempted, then Relayer could have been the prog album everyone - yes everyone - likes.

Yes did struggle a bit with drummers, but Chris Squire was a better bass player than Geddy Lee.

ironically the thing I cannot stand about Yes is Jon Anderson’s voice. Just an automatic nope for me every time.
And yet, will stan Rush til I die.
I contain multitudes.

<3

i finally got a nice copy of Big Generator on vinyl. i love that record. i don't know if other people do. probably not. maybe its even controversial to love that album!

I have it — in the big CD box set of all Yes's Atlantic studio albums — but I've only ever listened to it once. I would have said I've never listened to it at all, but I had to to write this ranking of every Yes album for Stereogum.

Although there were no membership changes between 90125 -- Yes' biggest hit; it went triple platinum -- and Big Generator, it still took them four years to make the follow-up, primarily due to tensions between producer Trevor Horn, who left the sessions after a few months, and keyboardist Tony Kaye. Ultimately, guitarist Trevor Rabin took over, and the result is a glossy, thoroughly '80s hard-rock album, with some weird touches at the margins.

One of those weird touches comes right at the beginning: "Rhythm Of Love," the second single, starts with ambient keyboard washes and wordless, Beach Boys-esque vocal harmonies. It doesn't stay that interesting, though; the song itself is a stomping radio rock track that could have been written and recorded by any '60s or '70s artist still grubbing for a hit at the end of the '80s. It could be a Starship song.

The title track offers a few diverting noises, too, like the scat singing at the beginning and a guitar solo that sounds like an alternate version of the one from "Owner Of A Lonely Heart." And "I'm Running," which at 7:38 is the longest track here, has enough shifts in mood to recall what Yes once were. But overall, this album is the sound of a band giving up and just doing whatever they think will get them another hit. Three of the track titles have "love" in them ("Rhythm Of Love," "Almost Like Love," "Love Will Find A Way") and are so achingly generic, they could have appeared on any album, by anyone. No surprise, then, that after Big Generator's release, Jon Anderson wandered off again, this time to form Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe.

funny I was just having a conversation about Tool and how they're probably the best band I get absolutely nothing out of. and I mean 'best' in a purely technical sense - they really are crazy skilled players. same with Dream Theater, who I also cannot stand. and yes people who are really into Tool tend to have the most boring taste on the planet. as much as I love talking prog every time Tool gets discussed I feel myself slowly losing consciousness. ironically all the big Marillion fans I know have good taste, though I'm not much of a fan of them either. never got why it was them who got huge instead of IQ, who were clearly better

i get Marillon confused with the Boy George protege Marilyn lol

i just like the poppiness of Big Generator and the sound. And the songs! i had the tape when it came out. maybe its nostalgia. it really could be anyone other than the distinctive lead vocals. Trevor Rabin sings a bunch on it. i used to listen to his band's albums. Rabbitt. the poor man's david gilmour.

fish - vs - phish

i'm pretty sure god invented death metal so that i wouldn't have to listen to tool or stinky 80s prog.

i hear something like phish and it just makes me sad. its so clunky and unfunny and unfunky. they just suck on this massive scale. the applebees of jam bands. at least listen to like derek trucks or something. but really just listen to metal and jazz like god intended. its all you need. or all i need. in that vein.

I thought of Big Generator today after watching that Stewart Copeland interview because parts of it come off to me like what a late 80s Police album might've sounded like. the good parts specifically.

its unbelievable how haywire the entire concept of Yes goes after Tormato. like overnight none of them (besides maybe Steve Howe) is interested in making Yes music anymore and they get hijacked by the Buggles, then Trevor Rabin. then suddenly this rival Yes band pops up with the actual classic lineup (minus Squire) but they don't really resemble Yes either. then they all combine forces despite none of them really wanting to, releasing an album that's like a third of a Steve Howe solo album and a bunch of shit the producer wrote. just endlessly fascinating shit and the crazy train did not stop even into the 21st Century

how great are fish out of water and beginnings? those guys were so cool.

i guess i can see punk saving us from this but chris squire's robe!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA_wEnOVWcQ

right and that makes it all even stranger, they were such insanely hard workers up to that point. like Jon made Olias totally from scratch and slept so little that he doesn't even remember how he made most of it.

*VegGrrl listen to chris squire's fish out of water record sometime. its really cool and jon anderson is nowhere to be seen!*

i'm gonna guess and say that Yes just toured too much. they got burned out. who wouldn't? even if you are young. its a crazy life to live. even if you aren't drunk all the time.

I’ve never considered the idea that Tool are amazing musicians…I mean I’m certainly no expert on their music but isn’t it just kind of like vaguely grunge/nu-metal riffs in 11/8 or 7/4 or whatever?

This thread has gone in a bunch of directions here lately…on the topic of Yes Tales of Topographic Oceans is my single favorite prog album by anyone ever but I’ve never gotten into Relayer at all and I haven’t ever investigated anything beyond that. They were an amazing band up until that point though, and I keep waiting for the day Relayer clicks.

It hurts to see Yes and Rush grouped with Dream Theater and Tool…I mean I can follow the lineage but I would never assume that being a fan of the former two would mean being a fan of the latter.

i heard tool for practically the first time a couple of weeks ago and would say that their prog metal did not seem worse to me than any other variety of prog. in fact i may prefer theirs to those other varieties. faint praise. or damnation.

@ scott xxp:

I remember reading an interview with Jon Langford that mentioned all the times he saw Yes, not because he was a fan, but because Yes was constantly touring through every single town, college or city in the UK. Like, look at Yes's 1968-1971 tour schedule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Yes_concert_tours_(1960s%E2%80%9370s)

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, January 29, 2024 7:53 PM (four weeks ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Yes_concert_tours_(1960s%E2%80%9370s)

oh FFS, just follow the links

okay yeah that's crazy, they basically never stopped! to write and record the caliber of music they were while also playing like 150 shows a year...thats wild. makes sense now why Bruford was like "I physically cannot be in Yes anymore"

oh yeah i remember that post. yeah they were nuts. that stuff isn't easy to play!

whenever i listened to tool it always just sounded sluggish and dreary. and i couldn't help but think of the dorky claymation video. i've never listened to an entire album. i'd rather listen to opeth. who can be dull and tedious at times but i'd still rather listen to them. (haven't even really listened to their latter-day full-on prog albums...)

Phish are a no for me, hippy weirdo vibe is not for me, plus very Dead in that way of you can’t be a casual fan & just settle forva couple of studio records, it’s all ohhh the 7th night on the second leg of the first tour in 2014 will rip your face off maaan

like Pearl Jam got kinda that way at a much lower less hippyish level and that’s all the bandwidth i have for that kinda Deadheaded nonsense

you can’t be following *mutiple* Dead-like bands that are built that much around their live shows. it’s too much!

there are plenty of metal bands who like tool though. they see something there.

80’s-90’s Tool was very sarcastic & intense & fun to like because they seemed intelligent & edgy idk it was a different time

sprry typo just 90s

oh man i would listen to pearl jam in a heartbeat over phish. and i'm not a fan or anything. same with wilco who don't do much for me. at least i get a cool nels cline solo or something with them. and pearl jam can at least bring the guitars in a satisfying way.

Veg, your 90s love is duly noted. some of the 80s stuff i still listen to i wouldn't even play for someone. i was listening to Easterhouse at 8AM at the store!

yes! and matt cameron, god-tier drummer that he is, thankfully doesnt insist on playing drum solos for like an hour

i think i rant about more 90’s stuff than anything but i do love music from other decades i swear

i guess if you think of phish like bad trance or some sort of cheesy techno that people use to take drugs to it makes sense.

they are an excuse to take drugs. for otherwise normal people.

I like the goofy proggy stuff Phish did in the 80s. Its a pretty interesting experience hearing them play their intensely composed material- like Zappa / Pat Metheny levels of muso-sophistication- to like 7 people in a bar. Once in the 90s they became like a vaguely funky jam band. I'm not sure goofy prog is anyone's idea of better, but it must be said they were a pretty different thing at first. When they load up a set with the 80s stuff, as they did recently, people go nuts. I always feel like I'm the only one who doesn't connect at all with the 90s and newer songs.

my thing with fans of Phish and that ilk of jam band stuff was always, like, this music isn’t that free or interesting. in college, i quickly realized that my hippie friends were too square for the likes of the No-Neck Blues Band or Angus Maclise records I was digging, hell they were too square for any of the AmPrim stuff that I was obsessed with. they don’t actually like free music or Americana, they like gloopy bar bands that have taken a hit or two too much of the good acid. that’s fine, it’s just not for me.

i don’t listen to any of the prog or prog-adjacent bands, but understand why people like them. just not for me.

Is this the thread to post that Phish's live cover of Loaded is better than the VU album version?

Back to Rush for a second. I have a close friend who is Canadian and knows Alex Lifeson well; occasionally I get a gift shipment of Rush-branded beer.

https://shophendersonbrewing.com/en-us/collections/rush-beers

Ideal for drinking in the basement bars and/or backs of cars. Serve cool or be CAST OUT.

i never would have thought that phish had any "muso-sophistication" listening to them. the guitarist does not-as-good jerry and the rest of them do...their thing. not that they don't know how to play an instrument. maybe i listen to too much jazz. and metal. and classical. they definitely have the unfunny qualities of zappa. but even zappa's lyric writing - as cringey as it can be - is way better. ah well. whatever.
at the end of the day, at least we can all agree that they have the most hideous albums covers of any known band in the western world. though i suppose a case could be made for limp bizkit. or ani difranco.
it's just mostly when they get "funky". ah god that is some painful shit. way more painful than the dead and bob weir can definitely pain a person. or when they do the fake reggae thing oh god stop oh no bumboclat.

"Is this the thread to post that Phish's live cover of Loaded is better than the VU album version?"

if this is true that's cool they should play nothing but covers of songs by actual good bands who know how to write a memorable song. no shame in that. the velvets weren't muso-sophisticates either.

"Is this the thread to post that Phish's live cover of Loaded is better than the VU album version?"

if this is true that's cool they should play nothing but covers of songs by actual good bands who know how to write a memorable song. no shame in that. the velvets weren't muso-sophisticates either.

Scott is right, twice. I could not tell you the name of a single Phish song. But if they made cross-genre covers, like Postmodern Jukebox, that might be amusing, at least.

the one time I saw Phish they did an amazing Dear Prudence but it was a double edged sword because it was so clearly a good song and it made all their songs seem even worse

lots of cool stuff in the jam portions but it was like ok I guess we gotta tough it out through five minutes of prog Spin Doctors first

it reminds me of when i saw The Faint in the 90s and they played their 80s homages and people were digging it and everything and then they played "enola gay" and everyone just freaked the fuck out.

did i mention that phish is horrible?

haha, okay, i'll admit it, its fun to hate on phish. but i'm white and from new england. i'm allowed to.