Beyoncé - Renaissance

people made the same complaints about "break my soul," which was also silly. at the time, i tweeted something along the lines of:

*billionaire beyoncé makes song about dead-end job*
twitter: whoa whoa whoa slow down moneybags!
*hundred-millionaire/theme park proprietor dolly parton makes song about dead-end job*
twitter: <3 <3 <3

I was tired of the incoming tide of thinkpieces as soon as I heard the first few notes, but also approve of country music fans being forced to reckon with Beyonce.

I am a huge country -- and Beyonce -- fan and am very happy to hear her take on the genre (loved "Daddy Lessons"). I just wish "Texas Hold Em" didn't sound like the Lumineers!

my big question last night was: why did she do a Verizon commercial? not judging her, just seems like something she normally wouldn't do.

if the answer is "money" then how much money do you think it takes to get Beyonce to do a commercial?

or is it something more / bigger than that, i.e. they bankroll a tour (still money, i know) or maybe gave her a free line on her family plan for Blue Ivy's new phone?

fwiw a friend in advertising guesstimates she made $15-20mm for that spot

Not bad for a couple days of work.

people made the same complaints about "break my soul," which was also silly.

i think it's silly if you just take people's objections at the surface level of "this rich person is singing about doing 9-5 work" but i think there is a more bedrock criticism happening about her ability to inhabit songs that are not from her own perspective. and i would say that is generally fair criticism because i think beyonce has cultivated an artistic & celebrity persona that makes it hard for her to sing from the POV of a working class striver. like, this person's entire persona is based around the concept of regality, untouchability, virtuosity beyond comprehension ... partly of her own doing and partly of her stans but also from critics, commentators, talking heads -- beyonce as Queen Bey is not just some incidental context for her life's work. so for her to successfully inhabit the character of a 9-5 clock puncher she has to go the extra mile that other wealthy artists may not have to, and i personally would agree w/ people that "break my soul" and "texas hold em" do not succeed on those grounds. we'd all agree that "break my soul" is one of the least essential songs on that album right? that's not coincidental.

you can compare her to taylor swift who is constantly being hounded over her wealth -- she's currently trying to prevent some twitter account from tracking her private jet etc -- but when she writes in character, people don't stop and say "hold on we don't believe you." and that's because her artistic and celebrity persona has long established her credibility in that arena. i would say that this is largely for artistic reasons -- taylor has been writing in character forever -- but also because she chooses to craft her celebrity in a way that maintains the veneer of accessibility i.e. fan meet and greets, standing on stage at her shows and speaking at length to the audience etc

the idea of beyoncé as existing on a different plane than the rest of us is the driving force of her art. we want something from her concerts that we don't, and don't expect, from taylor, to just use that example. we want to see beyoncé spend 2 hours showing us how inferior we are to her. but i'd also point out that the world *has* responded extremely positively to beyonce cracking the facade and showing us what is happening in her personal life, showing us that even the most untouchable genius artist of a woman may marry a man who fucks around behind her back. there is a huge amount of power in leveling with her audience in that way, as she has shown since the self-titled. i just don't think ppl wanna hear her talking about doing normal people stuff out in the real world! she doesn't do that and nobody really buys that character from her, and not being able to credibly sing about going to dive pars is a small price for her to pay given the rest of what she is capable of pulling off

(dive bars)

What helps or hinders Beyonce is that she's not a songwriter in the way Swift is; her public image doesn't depend on her audience's regard for her as a songwriter, therefore playing characters doesn't quite work for her.

i also actually do think "break my soul" largely connected w/ ppl in the real world on an emotional level, there is an urgency to the way she sings the chorus that i do think helped it stick as a club song even tho it's based off a tired sample and stuff like that. people will readily believe that there are forces holding beyonce back that she needs to move past just like the rest of us, i just think going the extra step to sing about 9 to 5s and dive bars is the part where people are like "yeah you don't need to do all that" & i would agree

I'm not sure that anyone else could have invested "Break My Soul" with more conviction - a homage to the idea of house music as a release from the dreary humdrum world of the working week is about as overdone as quoting "Show Me Love" is musically, and the fact that it rises above stuff like Michael Gray's "The Weekend" or Riton X Nightcrawlers' "Friday" at all is really down to Beyonce's performance. But I agree with J0rdan otherwise.

i agree with all of that, tho i think i like "break my soul" more than you. every artist brings their own larger than life persona to the songs they attempt to inhabit, and yeah, beyonce's image makes the regular shmegular degular thing much harder for her to pull off than, say, my other example, dolly parton.

but i do bristle against the prevailing discourse idea that a performing artist or songwriter must draw directly from their lives or lived experiences to make their art, or else lose perceived authenticity points.

and i'm not saying anyone in this thread is doing it, but i do see a lot of casual critiques that basically boil down to that. people are losing their ability, or willingness, to recognize that the words an artist sings in a song do not necessarily reflect their real lives

both songs good, both songs 100% stadium indie, honestly shocked

Great post j0rdan s, I think it takes the listener out of it to even think about whether they buy it or not, what kind of character this is, etc. It's a hard move to start pulling off at this stage of her career.

(I think 'Break My Soul' works fine because it's a dance tune, so it's easy enough to ignore or shrug off the lyrics)

I'm not sure that anyone else could have invested "Break My Soul" with more conviction - a homage to the idea of house music as a release from the dreary humdrum world of the working week is about as overdone as quoting "Show Me Love" is musically, and the fact that it rises above stuff like Michael Gray's "The Weekend" or Riton X Nightcrawlers' "Friday" at all is really down to Beyonce's performance. But I agree with J0rdan otherwise.

― Tim F, Monday, February 12, 2024 5:28 PM (fifteen minutes ago)

i hear you, i think that's a completely legit argument. i agree with the idea that her performance essentially allows the song to transcend itself, meaning that it accepted a lot of baggage w/ that interpolation at that point in time and was still able to stand on its own two feet as a record out in the real world, in my experience. it even transcends this lyrical bit we're talking about too -- it's not like people are out on the dancefloor screaming the 9-5 parts at the tops of their lungs, you know what i mean? and of course w/ the album there is a real personal history that she provides as context for the record that makes its pure musical quality even more enjoyable and meaningful, depths that i.e. 'future nostalgia' could not hit. and i expect she'll get to that same place w/ this album too, "16 carriages" is exciting

and i'm not saying anyone in this thread is doing it, but i do see a lot of casual critiques that basically boil down to that. people are losing their ability, or willingness, to recognize that the words an artist sings in a song do not necessarily reflect their real lives

― the defenestration of prog (voodoo chili), Monday, 12 February 2024 22:39 (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is really just a small part of a broader problem - i'm less bothered by this hyper-focus on biography in itself than I am by the fact that it's typically coupled with really shallow takes on what the music is actually doing. People are leaning on the former in part because they don't know how to do the latter.

People are leaning on the former in part because they don't know how to do the latter.

yes, epidemically

and i'm not saying anyone in this thread is doing it, but i do see a lot of casual critiques that basically boil down to that. people are losing their ability, or willingness, to recognize that the words an artist sings in a song do not necessarily reflect their real lives

― the defenestration of prog (voodoo chili)

Well, this. And Beyonce's success or failure rate has to me little to do whether she can walk into Coyote Ugly or wherever. More than Swift she's the consummate pop actress/stylist of our time. I've been listening to more film and Oscar podcasts than usual in recent weeks and I was struck by how many of them (and most were gay) obsessed over who they dated and why and What It Meant and I could give a damn.

who = actors

I could never be a reporter because I really don't give a fuck about artists.

in the 24-48 hours after the 'lemonade' film aired people truly thought they were going to open twitter and read that beyonce was divorcing jay z, and when it became clear that they were still a happy couple there was an adjustment period for some portion of her fanbase who had to accept that the album was a work of art and beyonce wasn't going to be living out a cinematic revenge fantasy irl. but i don't get the sense that beyonce remaining in her marriage diminishes the quality of lemonade in the eyes of the listening public, so it's not like people are completely unable to recognize, or accept, that her music doesn't necessarily reflect her real life. there may be something about her working man's cosplay in particular that people are getting stuck on

I think the public is shrewder than us who insist on autobiographical frames.

so it's not like people are completely unable to recognize, or accept, that her music doesn't necessarily reflect her real life. there may be something about her working man's cosplay in particular that people are getting stuck on

I agree with this but I also think the issue being referred to has gotten a lot more pronounced since early 2016, and broadly reflects/tracks changes in popular left wing (twitter) discourse over that time period (which in turn was in part a reaction to Trump being elected).

I actually made some of these points already upthread:

I talk about this quite a lot but I find it super-frustrating how the convergence of pop criticism, cultural studies, gossip and twitter snark results in this kind of short-circuit argument where the connection between the quality of the music and the issue which is purportedly problematic is posited but not unpacked, e.g.:

"But, as a wealthy cis woman, Beyoncé lacks an intimate understanding of the subcultures she is borrowing from, and this sudden, random interest in underground queer culture renders the execution awkward at best, and painfully pandering at worst. "

How would an "intimate understanding" of queer/ballroom subcultures (even assuming the writer is correct to conclude that Beyonce lacks it) have manifested as a different end product? The writer doesn't say, perhaps hasn't even turned their mind to the question, beyond a kind of vague "I'd know it when I saw/heard it" presumption (presumably because the artist in question is not a wealthy cis woman).

The result of this kind of approach tends to turn what could be a very thoughtful examination (of how an artist like Beyonce can successfully or otherwise engage with queer culture) into a quite shallow one.

― Tim F, Wednesday, August 10, 2022 3:03 AM (one year ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think a lot of writers just find it easier to frame assessments of music which throw up these issues as boiling down to a question of "who gets to have this conversation" rather than "what is the conversation, and what does this specific artefact add to that conversation".

― Tim F, Wednesday, August 10, 2022 7:23 AM (one year ago) bookmarkflaglink

country *is* working man cosplay afaict

I do like the songs, shame about the whistling

what the conversation is hard to pin down so far but the rollout and reactions to it will probably bring that into focus a bit more (seems reasonable to assume the music - regardless of quality or popularity - won't be inert in the context of the culture war esp this year)

could have seen authenticity discourse coming from a shit Nadine Smith piece coming from a mile away, wheeeee

sounds glib to say that she wouldn't have levelled this critique against a white country artist but she did fall over herself repeatedly to defend Toby Keith the other day, glib critiques get glib responses

anyway

Where is Nadine Smith from? You can’t imagine a Black American woman from Texas with family roots in Louisiana and Alabama….boot scooting? Do you know any country Black folk? If you did, Nadine, you wouldn’t be confused by Bey.

— Alva Johnson (@ThatAlvaJohnson) February 12, 2024

The thing that’s really driving me crazy about that Pitchfork review is that it feels like Smith just grabbed a couple of words out of the song to bolster a dismissive “stay in your lane, fake Black girl” bullshit without actually listening to the song or even trying to comprehend what it’s doing.

it's a silly critique, but let's not post stan pile-ons plz

the tweet I posted is a valid response, whether she is a “stan” or not

The whole song seems to be using line-dancing as a metaphor for sex. Pulling the Lexus reference out of its context and moaning about 9-5 cosplay seems, well, deeply stupid to me.

the first two paragraphs of the review are all about the black roots of country music, and the first reply to that tweet is of a beyhiver making fun of nadine's appearance (she is trans)

I don’t remember posting the whole thread

… I mean, I’m not going to say that post isn’t making fun of her appearance because it very well could be, I’m not in the mind of the person who posted it, but what I noticed was a picture of a white woman juxtaposed next to other pictures posted to her Instagram feed, which included a picture of two bleeding Black men depicted in some amount of distress with “I ❤️ u” drawn freehand on it. I don’t recognize the picture so I don’t know if it’s a still from a movie or a picture of actually-injured people.

from a wrestling match, i am pretty sure

This is entirely tangential to Smith taking the time to write about how Black people have a connection to country music before dismissing “Texas Hold-Em” for not being authentic enough by seemingly taking one line entirely at face-value and then ignoring the rest of the contextual information given by the song. The Lumineers dig makes sense but the rest of it doesn’t.

The funny thing about pulling out the Lexus line is Smith failed to mention that Lexus was one of the Renaissance tour sponsors (the "exclusive automotive partner of the U.S. leg" to be precise), which seems like a more effective line of critique if you're looking for a class angle

the simple fact that "lexus" is the only car brand that rhymes with "texas" should have been an indication that perhaps beyonce was not literally addressing upper middle class listeners...

Sensible reply!

https://x.com/beyoncepress/status/1757513502640472097?s=20

some of the saddest people on earth for sure

country *is* working man cosplay afaict

I don't have a strong negative reaction to smith's piece, but I've been thinking about the suggestion that "texas hold 'em" is "working-class music for folks who can afford a Lexus" - more than the second part of that claim, it's the first that feels too easy, too quick to look past the fact that (as left notes) almost all modern country already is cosplaying some kind of working class authenticity.

I agree with j0rdan above that beyonce's attempts at relatability can perhaps be complicated by the fact that she has cultivated (and/or had cultivated on her behalf) this aura of untouchability. But I think her literal wealth is only a small part of that.

If you google the net worth of Miranda Lambert (someone who I don't think would ever be widely criticised for consistently flirting with working class tropes) the results say that she was worth $60 million last year but is also the "most frugal" country star, who eats at chain restaurants etc.

So, not to belabour the obvious point but, this is really about how people perform (or are perceived to be performing) their class status rather than anything else. What perhaps-inevitably flows from that is that music journalism which purports to offer a "class critique" is often just reheating and repackaging fairly superficial Walmart versus Trader Joe's distinctions.

I'm really surprised by so many ILM posters' love of Lambert, who is literally married to a cop.

it gets even worse check out who she was married to before that

So, not to belabour the obvious point but, this is really about how people _perform_ (or are _perceived_ to be performing) their class status rather than anything else. What perhaps-inevitably flows from that is that music journalism which purports to offer a "class critique" is often just reheating and repackaging fairly superficial Walmart versus Trader Joe's distinctions.

there’s also something with beyonce where people — and i include major cultural critics in this group — extend the persona of regality & virtuosity that we all cherish about her to the point of, essentially — this person does not make art that needs to be critiqued hard and, potentially, in a negative fashion. which is how we end up with the temporary nationwide psychosis that was pretending like that beyonce and jay z rap album was not even just merely good (which it wasn’t) but also equal to if not superior to the current rap of the time (as an insane an argument now as it was then). again not obliquely referring to ppl in this thread i think beyonce gets a fair shot on this wonderful message board. speaking about a larger critical phenomenon

part of that is PR and stan culture capitalism.and all the rest and part of it I assume is remembering all of the *really bad* critiques from over the decades esp from around 10 years ago of her and the things she was was taken to represent, and wanting to be more careful this time

her wealth and scabbing are fair game much like taylor's emissions but picking apart some basic lyrical signifiers that even I know are all over the genre anyway and flirting with a very loaded and empirically false line of argument is definitely the wrong way for people to go

even though I want better criticism of her I am wary of asking for it since I know there are a lot of people who have always been waiting for a chance to take her (and by proxy a lot of other people) down for various unsavoury reasons

you can compare her to taylor swift who is constantly being hounded over her wealth -- she's currently trying to prevent some twitter account from tracking her private jet etc -- but when she writes in character, people don't stop and say "hold on we don't believe you." and that's because her artistic and celebrity persona has long established her credibility in that arena. i would say that this is largely for artistic reasons -- taylor has been writing in character forever -- but also because she chooses to craft her celebrity in a way that maintains the veneer of accessibility i.e. fan meet and greets, standing on stage at her shows and speaking at length to the audience etc
― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Monday, February 12, 2024 10:14 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well even if you're right about the "persona", that's still a bit of a double standard isn't it? I expect even average Joe to be able to separate artistic figure from the actual artist. I'm not American and not following the cults over them, but one of the only times I saw Beyonce interviewed on TV years and years ago, I was positively surprised and charmed by her humility, and the one thing I remember her saying is that she had worked very hard to make it to where she was. And I believed her, and good for her if she made millions. "Working person cosplay" is just infinitely silly. As if we listeners know what it means to work, and she doesn't? Are people serious?

"We headed to the dive bar we always thought was nice"

this line is hilarious

it gets even worse check out who she was married to before that

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, February 13, 2024 6:44 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

made me lol