Haiti: WTF?

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when exactly did the Clinton administration put into effect its policy of regime change in Iraq?

Clinton didn't put this policy into effect. Acting on a policy is different from having the policy. Often governments have policies that they feel, for whatever reason, that they can't get away with. Clinton had the policy nonetheless.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 2 March 2004 14:05 (twenty years ago) link

Aristide is supposed to be on the Tavis Smiley show on NPR today. This could be interesting, but right now i'm waiting for the Martians.

badgerminor (badgerminor), Tuesday, 2 March 2004 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

Hmm, so the Clinton administration had a policy on Allende consistent with that of the earlier Nixon administration, and we know this because the Clinton administration had an Iraq "policy" that it never effected (who was standing in its way exactly?) "consistent" with that of the later Bush administration, right? And this "consistency" goes to show that Clinton's Haiti policy, which was inconsistent with that of the preceding and succeeding administrations, was bad?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 2 March 2004 18:17 (twenty years ago) link

Worth reading, from yesterday's White House press briefing: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040301-4.html#2

maypang (maypang), Tuesday, 2 March 2004 18:32 (twenty years ago) link

Gabbneb, you're being deliberately obtuse because you know your original point on this argument was ridiculous and you're trying to deflect attention from your own idiocy. I'll remind you what you said that started this off.

And what does the Nixon administration have to do with the Clinton administration, more than 20 years later?

When I brought up Iraq and Allende, this was not in order to prove that all these events are actually the same or even that they have strong links or anything to do with Aristide. The point I was making, and you know it, is that the transference of power between one administration and the next does not mean abandoning foreign policies, but more often than not sees a continuation of foreign policy. So, it is entirely possible for Nixon and Clinton to share specific aims in foreign policy.

When you laugh at the idea that Clinton might have a policy that he doesn't or can't put into effect, is very naive. YOu seem to think that Presidents of the United States are subject to no external obstructions or opposition. The quote about needing another Pearl Harbor, up thread, is a good example of the restraints placed on government. That's why I referred to it! And yet, you haven't mentioned it once in all your cynical, arrogant jibes against me. Tell me I'm wrong about reading this quote from Rumsfeld's (et al's) report as an admission of (1) a policy that is not put into effect because (2) the policy would be popularly opposed.

run it off (run it off), Wednesday, 3 March 2004 09:21 (twenty years ago) link

Can we come back to this, now that a lot more information about the situation is floating around? Posting up above I was leaning toward the conclusion that the U.S. was cutting Aristide loose not because of any massive secret interest but just because it was looking easier to put a firm hand on the opposition than to shore up the elected government; more and more though, between us and the French, it seems like there was a pretty giant disdain for Aristide floating around, enough to make you wonder exactly how vigorous our efforts at negotiations really were. I'm still curious, Runitoff, as to what particular issues you think were so intensely at stake with Aristide. (Not that there have to be issues at stake for nations like ours to develop problems with world leaders: after all, there are whole teams of people whose job it is to sit around and decide how we feel about every polital figure around, well in advance of the top levels of an administration caring.)

Rangel appears to be all over the administration on this one, posing the question pretty efficiently: At what point did we abandon the democratically elected leader of this nation and literally shoo him overseas to make way for what would be called a coup if not for the fact that we made him resign before shuttling him off?

Also, apart from going down the route of arguing over the precise workings of U.S. motives -- i.e., one says "sinister," two says "reasonably self-interested," three says "noble," which is where it seems like way too many foreign-policy discussions wind up anyway -- what do you see in future here?

nabiscothingy, Monday, 8 March 2004 01:59 (twenty years ago) link

You damn dirty ilxors.

nabiscothingy, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 19:11 (twenty years ago) link

I can't say I know what Washington's problem with Aristide was, only that senior members of the government were making deliberately unsettling statements about him at quite an early stage. This suggested to me that there was an intention to destabilise Aristide's government. The reasons for this might take some time to come out fully. My guess would be that he turned into someone who, unlike Gorbachev for Thatcher, was someone the US thought they could not do business with. This seems to reach a head when Aristide refused to comply with the demands of the IMF, World Bank and US loan agencies.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:35 (twenty years ago) link

America has certainly pushed for Aristide's removal

Feb 12 Colin Powell said this: "The policy of the administration is not regime change, President Aristide is the elected president of Haiti."

Five days later, this: "We cannot buy into a proposition that says the elected president must be forced out of office by thugs and those who do not respect law and are bringing terrible violence to the Haitian people."

February 26: "He is the democratically elected president, but he has had difficulties in his presidency, and I think... whether or not he is able to effectively continue as president is something that he will have to examine."

February 27: Aristide should "examine the situation he is in and make a careful examination of how best to serve the Haitian people at this time."

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

Gary Younge from the Guardian is the source for those quotes. He says that "the principal message to the Haitian people from Aristide ouster is that force works. If you do not like the elected leader of a country, start a rebellion and refuse to negotiate. If it is strong enough, and its politics amenable enough, the Americans will come and finish the job for you. With 33 coups in 200 years, this was a message the Haitian people did not need."

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 23:23 (twenty years ago) link

(Sorry to just quote people here but I honestly have no idea WTF is going on in Haiti at all, so anything I could say would be just talking out my arse. I haven't heard a factual and coherent story about what's going on down there from anyone, even Younge, who was there around when the coup happened.)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 23:40 (twenty years ago) link

No, see, that sequence of quotes is basically the story as I've seen it, and the reason I'm inclined to push Runitoff further on what exactly he was getting at here: on the absolute top lip-service level (i.e., what Powell says out in the open) we seemed to be fine with Aristide right up until it became clear that it would be "easier" to cut him loose, at which point we actively worked to get him out of the way. (This fits with a Runitoff model as much as any of the other points of view we've seen here; it becomes a matter of guessing exactly how fond the administration was of Aristide at a back-room level.)

That "refuse to negotiate" is key; from what I can tell there were a lot of negotiations and concessions made with the formal opposition and the less-formal rebels, and they were all rejected, on logic of Aristide-out-or-nothing.

nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:17 (twenty years ago) link

i'm as suspicious of u.s. intentions (generally speaking) as anyone. probably more so. but i think, in this scenario, what we are seeing is a general concern by the u.s., france + canada in doing what is best for haiti here; keeping the bloodshed + chaos to a minimum.

i don't see any gains from having aristide ousted (what does haiti have that the u.s. would be interested in really). i'd also mention that if there was serious a problem with him he wouldn't have been put back in power so many years ago. i'd mention it except for the fact that the u.s. had quite a massive track record for pulling 180º's on issues of foreign policy.

dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:26 (twenty years ago) link

for various reasons i do not have the energy to get into a debate about haiti, but if anyone is interested i am posting an article by a friend of mine who is there at present

PLAYING IN THE WAR ZONE – Brett Bailey

I arrived in Haiti in early February for a two week stint to find a cast for the show I’m currently writing and designing, Vodou Nation, and to give training workshops to the performers I’ll be directing. That was almost five weeks ago, when the threat of war was just a rumour.
Until September last year, when I made my first trip here to get a feel for the country, I had little idea of what Haiti was about aside from the common stereotypes: poverty, tyranny, vodou. I didn’t really even know where the island was.
English producer Jan Ryan – who tours my South African work in the UK – had fallen for the “vodou-rock” music of Port-au-Prince-based band, RAM, and decided we would make a dynamic partnership in developing a stage show. My company consists of actors and musicians from the South African townships. Jan also pulled in Trinidadian director, Geraldine Connor – who is based at the West Yorkshire Playhouse – to co-direct with me.
During the past months I’ve read a good deal about local culture, history and religion, trying to make sense of this convoluted, multi-layered nation. I decided to tell an allegorical story of the rise and fall of a dictator (since Haiti has had its fair share of those), beginning from when Christopher Columbus made boot prints on the beach here in 1492, and ending more or less now, but with an image of transformation and hope.
I envision Vodou Nation as a celebration of sorts: of the endurance and prolific creativity of an amalgamation of once-enslaved people who have managed to forge a vivid and distinctive culture, religion, language out of so many fragments. I want to give acknowledgement to the spirit of these people who have suffered so much at the hands of the world’s Big Men. But as the shadow of civil war fell across the country my upbeat ending felt increasingly like wishful thinking.

About sixty hopefuls turned up for the auditions – mostly dancers, as drama does not feature prominently on the cultural landscape here. I selected seven of these – including Paris-based Haitian choreographer, Erol Josue – to perform alongside the eight musicians of RAM.
During the workshops – conducted with the aid of an interpreter, my Creole being limited to a few pleasantries – my performers and I worked on the dances and songs of the various vodou deities, doing improvisation exercises to free the mind and body. The contrast between the rehearsal room and the streets was startling. Angry red graffiti shouted from the walls. Time and again my lift to rehearsals made hasty U-turns as armed mobs moved towards us. Everywhere roads were cordoned off by concrete blocks, vehicle carcases and rubble. Smouldering rubber pyres left black bruises on the tarmac.
During the second week of my stay all hell broke loose in the northern towns of Gonaives, Saint Marc and Cap Haitian as various rebel factions rose up and slaughtered the stalwarts of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Tourists and Peace Corp workers left the hotel and were replaced by reporters and photographers, some direct from the bloodbaths of Iraq, others fresh-faced from college and embarking on their first action adventure.
We gathered around the bar of the grand old Oloffson Hotel, on a hillside about a mile from the city centre, with rum punches in hand watching CNN footage of towns falling. Conspiracy theories took flight and died. Gunshots peppered the night sky.

Between visits to vodou temples, and the studios of ghetto artists who fashion saintly icons out of junk, and the uptown painters with their jungle canvases of gaudy innocence, I dropped in at academics and intellectuals to milk them for information and to run my little narrative by them. These interviews were invariably interrupted by telephone calls and radio reports heralding the approaching storm.

Not knowing how long the unrest might last, we had to consider the possibility of holding the rehearsals in England rather than in Haiti as planned. With this in mind I decided to extend my ticket by five days so as to forage for more information, and to attend carnival in the sleepy town of Jacmel three hours drive to the south. The masks and costumes of carnival are inspiration for many of the costumes I am designing.
Everywhere I went I aimed my tiny digital camera at the crazy painted buses and the bright signage that adorns buildings and shops. I bought icons, dolls and sculptures to serve as models to be enlarged by the prop makers in Leeds.

By Wednesday 25 February, the day I was to have flown, Haiti had erupted into violence. Aristide’s slum-boy thugs, the Chimer, were manning roadblocks all over the city, robbing people at gunpoint. I tucked my laptop with my text on it under the seat of the taxi and headed blindly into the maelstrom.
The airport was a bun-fight with people desperate to leave, bribes being offered to get to the front of the queue, American women weeping in frustration. Possessing an out-dated ticket I was sent from pillar to post, and in the end made my way back to the Oloffson while my aeroplane soared overhead to sit out the revolution.

During the US occupation of Haiti (1915-1935) the Oloffson Hotel served as a military hospital. My bedroom is the old surgery, decked out in green tiles and with a hole in the centre of the floor where the blood drained out. I write by the overhead operating light.
The room is named “The Graham Greene Suite”. The author stayed here while writing his novel, The Comedians, set in this hotel during the bloody reign of Papa Doc and his Chimer, the Tonton Macoutes.
I never thought when I arrived here that I would witness drama with such relevance to the show I am creating. I have loved the romance of writing a play about this country in this suite, while the energy of a world gone haywire booms around me. The energy has been electrifying.

Saturday afternoon I joined the press on a tour of the smoking city. Down at the harbour warehouses rampant looting had been going on all day. According to my companions the scene was a free for all orgy that morning with cops in their black Darth Vader outfits and assault rifles trying to maintain order.
The wall of the compound had been broken and people were scurrying across the road with whatever they could carry: appliances, boxes, white sacks of grain or flour. Some men brandished rifles and hand-guns. They gestured at us to go away, and not to take pictures, but our Rastafarian guide said “we can push it a bit.”
The air was bitter with the smoke of burning rubber and plastic. Garbage covered the road. The body of a man, shot dead earlier, lay partly covered with cardboard.
Small stick-thin barefoot boys teetered past with crates of empty Coca-Cola bottles on their heads – the booty of those at the bottom of the pecking order in the Western hemisphere’s poorest nation.
Toyota pickup trucks were accelerating out of another hole in the wall and speeding away. “Vehicles confiscated by the police for not having brakes”, our guide told us us. Mobile barricades – if the drivers were able to stop them, that is.

All Saturday night the city was apocalyptic with explosions, automatic gunshots and the baying of thousands of dogs. My mind was blank, I couldn’t write. I felt numb.
Sunday news broke that Aristide had left the country. The outraged Chimer were at large on the streets and terror chewed at the hotel. Where to go if they scaled the wall?
Reporters stayed in doors, wide-eyed. Screams at the big wrought-iron gate drew us to a man who had just been shot, blood welling from his pelvis.
Midday we watched helicopters landing at the palace and calm began to descend, though gunfire continued to crackle and black smoke billowed from the city square.
When we went out in the afternoon looters were ransacking shops, the streets were littered with debris, and bodies lay bleeding by the roadside.
Late Sunday night we heard the heavy thrum of US cargo planes overhead. I accompanied journalists to the airport Monday morning where about 150 US Marines had taken control. They stood around looking mean and macho in their fatigues and helmets. Their haversacks and trunks of ammunition lay in neat rows. A stack of Evian Water glittered in the early sunlight.
They were here to restore the rule of law, they told us, until a UN multi-national team takes over.

Later I witnessed the blazing arrival of Chamblain and Phillipe and their soldiers in 4x4 vehicles in the city centre. Thousands of jubilant people thronged the streets singing and dancing, burning posters of Aristide on bonfires while white doves flocked overhead.
Is this the end of another bout of oppression and brutality in the Haitian chronicles? Does a new era of harmony begin now?
Where are the heavily armed rebel forces that over-ran the northern half of the country two weeks ago, I asked a local writer in the sitting room of the Oloffson this morning.
“They are here, keeping a low profile, waiting for an opportunity to make a move.”
And Guy Phillipe, their good looking young commander, who is now speaking about Haiti as if it were his own country – is he a local hero?
“He is like a frying pan when there is a fire,” replied my friend philosophically. “You grab it because it is the only thing available to beat out the flames, but you don’t want to display it on the mantelpiece.”
My performers were arriving for their first English lesson – to enable them to get by in England during their three month tour beginning in June. Their smiling, eager faces brightened my spirits. In a country of so much pain and heaviness, what is needed more than anything is acknowledgement, investment and opportunity for growth. My conviction to end Vodou Nation on a positive note is stronger than ever.

Tonight the city is black. Gunshots puncture the silence and US Marines watch from the palace. The airports are going to remain closed for another five days.
It feels that this thing is not yet over.

H (Heruy), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:44 (twenty years ago) link

on 8 January secretary of state Colin Powell condemned Aristide's suppression of peaceful protests and declared himself 'disturbed' by Haiti's regime; at the end of January, Bush officials called on Aristide to consider withdrawing from office and removed their diplomatic personnel from Haiti. Within days, the rebels made their moves; in a state as fragile as Haiti, statements from Washington are enough to tip the balance of forces

this is from the article linked upthread as Here’s an article about Bush’s campaign against Aristide

run it off (run it off), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:14 (twenty years ago) link

That "frying pan" metaphor is mind-boggling.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 13:20 (twenty years ago) link

This is from Green Left Weekly, February 25, 2004, days before the coup.

Washington’s stated attitude to the uprising has been contradictory. On February 12, State Department spokesperson Richard Boucher declared that “reaching a political settlement will require some fairly thorough changes in the way Haiti is governed, and how the security situation is maintained”. The New York Times interpreted this to mean that “the Bush administration has placed itself in the unusual position of saying it may accept the ouster of a democratic government”.

the full article

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 09:35 (twenty years ago) link

Here's an excerpt from another article in the same magazine

In 1994, the US made a deal with Aristide. After agreeing to implement neoliberal economic policies, he was allowed to return, backed by 20,000 US troops. The US military showed little enthusiasm for righting past wrongs. According to Human Rights Watch, they impeded investigations into the slaughter of the previous three years by removing vital documents.

Aristide's substantial concessions, including agreement to implement International Monetary Fund structural adjustment programs, certainly cost him much of the loyalty of Haiti’s already impoverished people

Under the austerity programs, Haiti’s economic situation has considerably worsened. Prices increased by 40% in 2001-2002, while the minimum wage halved.

However, Aristide’s “reforms” were not enough to pacify the US imperialist elite, which continued to fund and support many of the leaders of the 1991 coup.

Their first excuse to attack Aristide came after the 2000 elections, in which the parliamentary opposition disputed the results in a number of seats. Although the alleged fraud would not have altered Aristide’s landslide election victory, international condemnation was quick and punitive. An aid embargo was imposed, costing the desperately poor country $500 million in loans.

When, in early February, armed gangs began attacking the police and taking control of cities, the stage was set for a US intervention.

the full article

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 09:40 (twenty years ago) link

Here's something else I didn't know.

France, with extensive business interests of its own in Haiti, appears to have played a key role in deciding when to move against Aristide. The March 5 Washington Post reported the French newspaper Le Monde’s claim that French “diplomatic suggestions” that Aristide should resign convinced Washington.

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 09:43 (twenty years ago) link

...if Green Left Weekly is too partisan for your taste, then try this one from The Council on Hemispheric Affairs, described on the Senate floor as being “one of the nation’s most respected bodies of scholars and policy makers.”

an article written on 15th January about Washington’s involvement in the ‘impending’ coup

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:04 (twenty years ago) link

and as for the elections. Here's the view of Jeffrey Sachs, professor of economics and director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University.

Nor were the results of the legislative elections in 2000 in doubt: Aristide's party had also won in a landslide.? It was claimed that Aristide's party had stolen a few seats. If true -- and the allegation remains unproved -- it would be nothing different from what has occurred in dozens of countries around the world receiving support from the IMF, World Bank, and the US itself. By any standard, Haiti's elections had marked a step forward in democracy, compared to the decades of military dictatorships that America had backed, not to mention long periods of direct US military occupation

here

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:26 (twenty years ago) link

that article by Sachs makes this point that I think should be stressed:

by saying that aid would be frozen until Aristide and the political opposition reached an agreement, the Bush administration provided Haiti's un-elected opposition with an open-ended veto. Aristide's foes merely had to refuse to bargain in order to plunge Haiti into chaos

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:28 (twenty years ago) link

WASHINGTON TODAY: U.S. Troops Back to Haiti? Don't Count on It By George Gedda Associated Press Writer Published: Feb 18, 2004

I've linked this one because I thought it was interesting that just prior to American troops landing in Haiti, an Associated Press writer looked at the situation and concluded that Washington would not want to interfere with a democratically elected leader.

run it off (run it off), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:36 (twenty years ago) link

five years pass...

"Fears of huge death toll as earthquake rocks Haiti

Presidential palace and hospital among buildings reported to have collapsed"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/fears-of-huge-death-toll-as-earthquake-rocks-haiti-1866219.html

Zeno, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 03:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Haiti is the most densely populated country in the Western Hemisphere and also the poorest. This is likely to be a bad, bad situation.

Aimless, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 03:33 (fourteen years ago) link

I feel awful for these people. They already have to deal with annual hurricanes, widespread poverty, no real hope for a way out. Haiti used to be 60% forest; now it's 2%. Haiti on left, Dominican Republic on right:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2hg4bhs.jpg

chicken sandwich CARL!! (Z S), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 03:39 (fourteen years ago) link

This is going to be awful : (

Super Cub, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 06:30 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=haiti&ss=2&s=rec

warning: gruesome and horrifying...

┌∩┐(◕_◕)┌∩┐ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 06:48 (fourteen years ago) link

oh man

omarion's cousin, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 07:09 (fourteen years ago) link

do what you can

Sit 'N Creep (tremendoid), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 07:17 (fourteen years ago) link

bump

A™ machine (sic) (omar little), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 15:59 (fourteen years ago) link

this basically looks pretty horrible all around. it's insane that if a 7.0 struck socal there would be devastation, sure, but nothing like this. it looks like the entire city of port-au-prince is just gone.

A™ machine (sic) (omar little), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 16:03 (fourteen years ago) link

just....... horrible. haitians really didn't have it hard enough before this, did they?

what kind of present your naked body (Upt0eleven), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:13 (fourteen years ago) link

For those interesting in helping immediately, simply text "HAITI" to "90999" and a donation of $10 will be given automatically to the Red Cross to help with relief efforts, charged to your cell phone bill.

harbl, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:14 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't even have a phone.

Miss Bannister (╓abies), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:16 (fourteen years ago) link

it seems 100 UN officers in port-au-prince are missing after the headquarters building collapsed

Zeno, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:18 (fourteen years ago) link

grab someone else's phone, rabies

harbl, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah I'm gonna point it out to my gf when she gets off work.

Miss Bannister (╓abies), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:21 (fourteen years ago) link

i just c/p'ed that from here btw: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34835478/ns/world_news-haiti_earthquake/

harbl, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:31 (fourteen years ago) link

true story: i was spacing out on a train into nyc and this haitian guy asks me why I'm staring at him. then he asks me if I've ever seen a black person before. (I had, btw, at least 2.) then he tells me I should come visit haiti because it is warm and beautiful there.

bnw, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:38 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.earthquake/index.html

Port-au-Prince, Haiti (CNN) -- "Port-au-Prince is flattened" after a 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck the Haitian capital, Haiti's consul general to the United Nations said Wednesday.

"More than 100,000 are dead," Felix Augustin told reporters.

The hospitals are gone, he added, and medical supplies and heavy equipment are desperately needed.

The Haitian prime minister said Wednesday several hundred thousand people may have died in the powerful earthquake.

"I hope that is not true, because I hope the people had the time to get out," Jean-Max Bellerive told CNN.

A™ machine (sic) (omar little), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 19:35 (fourteen years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4dA6kZsEs

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link

Every time I'm convinced "okay, THAT'S the most ridiculously stupid thing he's ever said," he tops himself.

Such A Hilbily (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link

True story.

Miss Bannister (╓abies), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link

he's an amazing troll

A™ machine (sic) (omar little), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link

wtf why do tragedies bring out the extra crazy in televangelists? see also: Falwell, 9/11

smothered in country gravy (Whitey on the Moon), Wednesday, 13 January 2010 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link

why do tragedies bring out the extra crazy in televangelists?

Anything that happens is 'god's will' = it has to be interpreted accordingly.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 20:17 (fourteen years ago) link


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