Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

With the opposite facial hair maneuver.

Exactly!

It’s like those matter/antimatter black/white check-faced guys on Star Trek:TOS.

he really is the guy who dug an entirely different tunnel out of the 50s -- via stan freberg lol -- that paid no fair mind to just about anything that came afterwards (except maybe some TV themetunes and cokerock production techniques)

(i even feel like he got to "fusion" via his own route tbh)

― mark s, Friday, 25 December 2020 20:24 (two years ago) bookmarkflaglink

For years I was convinced that the only time I saw FZ was 1974 with the Roxy and Elsewhere band, and wished I could remember it more clearly (or really at all.) There is even a soundboard bootleg available, which did nothing to jog my memory. The setlist is much the same as You Can't Do That On Stage Vol. 2, which I love, and the show is actually quite good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi0SXwX-BAQ

Over the weekend I came to the realization that the show I attended was actually 1975. Ruth Underwood and George Duke were gone, and with them the complicated cartoon music of Roxy and Apostrophe. The band is stripped down from two drummers to one (Terry Bozzio) and features the short-lived lineup including Norma Bell and Andre Lewis. The setlist for this new band revived oldies from Freak Out, introduces a couple from Bongo Fury, and includes early arrangements of the justly maligned "Honey/Illinois" medley.

Still and all an interesting listen, captured on Zappa '75: Zagreb/Ljubljana, recorded mere days before I saw them in St. Paul, the night before Thanksgiving 1975.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgs_Z6z1yLs

Naval Aviation In Art (through PA), Stinkfoot (incl. The Poodle Lecture), Dirty Love, How Could I Be Such A Fool?, I Ain't Got No Heart, I'm Not Satisfied, Black Napkins, Advance Romance, Honey Don't You Want A Man Like Me?, The Illinois Enema Bandit, Carolina Hard-Core Ecstasy, Lonely Little Girl, Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance, What's The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?, Chunga's Revenge (incl. Five-Five-Five riff, Sy Borg riff, q: Follow Your Heart), I'm The Slime, San Ber'dino

Finally got around to checking out the original mixes of 'Freak Out' this week. Lots of 60s plate echo on the mix sets it in it's time and while the drums are not necessarily as clear as least in this modern master the low end is way better and the guitars got a bit more bite.

It was not as stark a difference at least to my memory, as I have not compared side by side as I was expecting. I'd compare it more to say hearing the mono mixes of classic Stones sides after only knowing the stereo mixes and realizing the mono was much better and was how it originally came out.

Eventually I will get around to checking out 'Uncle Meat' as all that movie dialog and how it was put together I thought was a slog. It's willfully ugly music and the guy's big style is using the tape edit like a samurai sword but I never could get into that one - although I think King Kong is a good tune. I got a feeling the original probably flows a lot better.

I'm at peace with my dislike of Zappa, but some time ago - months? years? - some deep cut station our car radio sometimes picks up played "Montana." I was by myself, and thought, OK, I'll give this an honest shot. But I only made it a few minutes before giving it the gong. Fast forward some time (months, years, etc) and we're driving around yesterday, my wife in the passenger seat this time, listening to the radio, when that same song comes on the same station. I think, OK, I know what this is, and know I don't like it, but I'll just leave it on and see what happens. And a couple of minutes go by without comment before my wife asks "what is this shit?" and changes the station.

yr wife otm

(also sidebar: i know this proposes dud discussion in the title, but i kind of want a dedicated zappa hate thread. some folks really get something out of his music and want discourse about it. i just want to make endless jokes about how he looks like like old salami and cabbage farts and how when he hired george duke, he couldn't understand half the shit george duke was playing. sorry earl, dan, and others who are genuine fans. i promise i won't shit up this thread anymore with such flippant unsophistication. i do appreciate frank's resolute and justified hatred of "THE MAN", discrepancies duly noted.)

(I kind of agree, except I honestly don't really see the point of such a thread so I will continue to post here and, not temper my hatred, but just spoon it out judiciously upon occasion)

(I kind of agree, except I honestly don't really see the point of such a thread so I will continue to post here and, not temper my hatred, but just spoon it out judiciously upon occasion)

the fans deserve a space to discuss the genius of the 21/8 guitar-and-marimba section of "the cosmic wang" in peace

Many XPS

By the standards of Zappa's '80s fuckwithery, what he did to Freak Out was pretty minor; as I understand it, he just applied a load of digital reverb to make it sound less time stamped to 1966, and there was no overdubbing/instrumental replacements/editing/restoration done to it.

By 'restoration' I mean adding back censored material or using previously unreleased full-length versions of tracks.

idk if i'd get much out of a hate thread for a guy who died 30 years ago. i _do_ hate him, but i find myself always coming back to the aspects of his music i think are interesting.

It's appropriate that the discussion thread is also the "hate thread"; even "the fans" dislike much of Zappa's work and personality.

It is a classic or dud thread, so hate is as relevant to the thread as love.

Dud Work For Yuda

this is the man who famously refused to write a love song. it seems just inappropriate and wrong to use the word "love" in the same sentence as "frank zappa".

I have mixed feelings about Zappa (and actively enjoy at least five or six albums out of his impressively large body of work) but the documentary gave me some more appreciation of him as a person. There’s no question he was a dedicated musician and serious about his work, and it was interesting to see how he responded to his daughter’s hints of his neglect, reading how much he meant to a band member, and also seeing him rehearse and conduct musicians at the tail end of his life. He wasn’t a guy who expressed his emotions in a sentimental way, but he had them.

Lol, Left.

Guys, even if we did have a hater-only thread, wouldn’t that only be doing exactly what Frank was doing…what we…hate about him? 🤔 🧐 🤨

🥸🎸🎶

He who fights with Zappa might take care lest he thereby become him

Guys, even if we did have a hater-only thread, wouldn’t that only be doing exactly what Frank was doing…what we…hate about him?

― Blecch’s POLLero (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, December 10, 2023 11:32 AM

god fucking dammit, you're right.

nvm, zappa clearly the most soulful, compassionate music figure oat

The first Zappa I tried was Freak Out, which I liked. The more I explored, the less I enjoyed and it retroactively tainted that first album.

It’s the opposite of Ween for me. I initially didn’t like Ween, but the more I heard the more I liked them. What I initially took as smart ass bullshit gradually revealed a lot of heart and real emotion, and eventually the entire discography became a portrait of two best friends growing up together, through Jr High nonsense up to divorce and rehab.

Zappa has no real way for me to get in. I get off on emotional connection and so much of what he does is academic, even though he would probably hate that description. Even something like “Trouble Every Day,” which is a sincere song about something that had some real meaning to him, is remote in some way.

I can tolerate his earlier stuff, but the 70’s wocka wocka “Montana” is the fucking worst amalgamation of tones and textures, I just can not with all that.

I do like his later interviews on free speech.

FWIW, I once lent someone Hot Rats while at work study because they wanted something to listen to while working too. He didn't know any Zappa and he LOVED it - he immediately ripped a copy after he was done listening. (This was around 2007.) I haven't seen him since that year, but he comes to mind every time I put on that album.

listening to Freak Out - did he maybe peak on his first album?

Trouble Every Day is so great

Help I'm a Rock the vocalizations get grating but damn Can must have loved this song

Can's "Mother Upduff" reminds me of "Help I'm a Rock".

I don't think it's his best but it does kind of hit a sweet spot - as I mentioned earlier in this thread he was actually 25 when it was released, old enough to know what he was doing, but at the same time he wasn't quite *that* version of Zappa yet, and actually wasn't opposed to doing something in earnest ("Trouble Every Day" always stands out because it's so unlike everything else he ever did).

when he hired george duke, he couldn't understand half the shit george duke was playing.

always been pretty interested in this - is it true that Zappa didn't really get what his soloists were doing? I've often wondered that myself, because there is something unique to his approach there, in that on one hand he comes off like a total control freak who edits things in peculiar ways for no real reason, but on the other hand he's surprisingly cool with musicians taking really long solos on them.

sorry earl, dan, and others who are genuine fans. i promise i won't shit up this thread anymore with such flippant unsophistication.

lol I find the shitting on Zappa itt as entertaining as the occasional appreciation. Maybe moreso. Shit on, Austin!

is it true that Zappa didn't really get what his soloists were doing?

this is 100% not true lol

is it true that Zappa didn't really get what his soloists were doing?

He hired people who could do things he couldn't. But he was the one who knew what needed doing.

I mean what does it mean to "not get" what one's soloists are doing - that he couldn't have played that stuff himself, or played it as well? not surprising I think -- I mean the whole reason you bring in a guitarist who isn't you is either a) to play rhythm or b) to do stuff you wouldn't think of yourself, which might in turn inspire you and help you in your growth, which is always ongoing. would need to see some proof of "zappa was mystified by what george duke was putting down"

Considering that Zappa produced (and played pseudonymous guitar on) at least one of Duke's solo albums, I think they understood each other pretty well. (Other members of the extended Zappa company of players like Ruth Underwood, Bruce and Tom Fowler, and Johnny "Guitar" Watson showed up on other Duke records in the 70s.)

i mean there were plenty of players in miles davis' bands that he couldn't necessarily hang with technically

yeah - idk I'm into dishing plenty of hate on Zappa, I find him a confounding figure, but veering into "his musicians were great whereas he sucked and couldn't do what they did" ignores a lot of how band dynamics work. the whole point is bringing together people whose talents make something new happen and the bandleader's skill in bringing those people together is a big part of it, I think Zappa's vision in this is one of his better qualities, he knows how to let a band cook, he knows his authorial voice is so omnipresent that at least until the 80s he's able to allow the thing to happen and for people to play up to their capabilities, to give shine. those musicians weren't just there to draw a paycheck, at that level of expertise any one of them would have been turning down plenty of gigs to work the zappa gig.

well, Belew didn't :)

Interviews with George and Ruth show they both held Frank in high regard. Really don't think they would have stayed in a band where their contributions were not understood or valued.

xxxxxpost

wrt freak out maybe not his best so much as it's the one i'm most often in the mood for, like you said he's not fully formed yet and there's still a lot of a grimy LA weirdo garage rock band in there which helps (for me)

I do find it interesting that, as I think I saw mentioned in a Bozzio interview and perhaps at one point related here, for a time serving with either Miles Davis or Frank Zappa were gigs guaranteed to open doors. And yet if you think of Miles, so many people he worked with went on to equal greatness as bandleaders, or at least careers of note, whereas with Zappa, unless I'm missing something, few of them went on to do much on their own worth mentioning outside of studio work or hired gun gigs. I wonder why that is, it's not like they didn't have the skills.

well, Belew didn't :)

Or did he change it to Captain Tom?

xx post

jazz vs rock

Steve Vai, Lowell George and George Dude is probs the only ones that had real post-Zappa non sidemen careers

Bozzio too.

So why not more post Zappa rock successes? There were so many talented people, dozens, you'd think they'd land somewhere visible. Besides Belew and I guess Vai (both from later eras) you get, what, Missing Persons?

Belew as well, iirc he was playing in a bar cover band until Zappa discovered him, on a tip from his driver no less. so maybe that's why he was so pissed at Bowie, must've felt like he was poaching his secret weapon.

So why not more post Zappa rock successes? There were so many talented people, dozens, you'd think they'd land somewhere visible. Besides Belew and I guess Vai (both from later eras) you get, what, Missing Persons?

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, December 11, 2023 4:25 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i would say that in jazz there was a much more direct link from "being a really fucking great player" to "being a successful solo artist/bandleader" than there is in rock, in fact sometimes have belew/vai type skills could be a detriment to success. just seems like there's more factors, vocals, image, marketing, luck etc (not that those don't exist in jazz but you know, why were the hooters more popular than discipline era king crimson?)

also jazz had always had a very established apprentice system of sorts where it was pretty common to start as a sideman/woman to a well known jazz artist, get noticed, then graduate to leading your own band.

Less of those factors and also maybe a different set of skills and training.
(xpost)

you get, what, Missing Persons?

Little Feat, one of the greatest American rock bands!