Scorsese and DiCaprio back together again with 'Killers of the Flower Moon'.

I'd say supporting.

Acting was great all round, some of those leo faces in the final 1/3rd where just impressive physiognomic events! Love seeing an actor frown for 3+ hrs

The final engagement between Molly and Ernest is what my mind goes to the next morning. A rote, stereotypical kind, of scene this movie stayed away from to that point, but that is to the scenes benefit and I think Marty was able to put some truth into it that it wouldn't have got from a worse (or shorter!) movie that stressed it too much as a moment of immense meaning.

I guess another film this reminded me of was THE NEW WORLD, although I have to think a little more about why and whether that makes sense

and maybe not so much ‘reminded me of’ but led me to wonder what malick might have done with it. not that he necessarily would be next in line to tell this story

You gotta laugh that Scorscese is just making the exact same movie in different decades (in both senses). If this was not based on a true story it would be unbelievable that he's just doing Casino/The-Irishman/etc. in the 20's

There are a lot of differences tbf but yeah this is a Marty Crime Story. There was one particular 10 minute section (you probably know what I mean that was straight up Goodfellas). I thought it was good but not amazing and even though its based on a true story I felt it required a lot of big asks from the audience.

So many great faces in this movie though, Louis Cancelmi's weird rhomboid features, Brendan Fraser's outraged Stay Puftness, Tommy Schultz's cauliflower ears, Ty Mitchell's weatherbeaten dirt road of a face

didn’t really like fraser at all in this one tbh

Didn't really like him in the one that just won him an Oscar tbh

Made the one gag in the film (“can I…. Can I talk alone to this man for a moment?”) absolutely sparkle with life lol.

imho the best gag was (i forget the exact quotes) when the lawyer tells Louis Cancelmi "what you're asking me makes it sound like you plan to adopt your children and then murder them...?" and Cancelmi is like "well no, not if I cant inherit their money!"

not a leo fan but liked him in this, although it got tougher for me in the last third or so when he's given less & less to do other than just squint and make that one face that he always makes

See, that line came after the “speak to this man alone”, so the surprise of a gag in this ugly ugly movie had already been spoiled.

I wish he always had those teeth

Nothing to add other than I thought this as really great.

and the ending, wow, don't remember the theatre gasping like that since like, that one scene in Caché in 2005

― Murgatroid, Friday, October 20, 2023 8:06 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I feel strange asking this, because I finished watching the movie an hour ago, but what are you referring to? What did people gasp at? Jack White trying to do a Native American accent?

I assume the radio play? i was wondering what was meant by that too

Amazing movie, and I’m convinced Brendan Fraser’s performance was modeled on wrestling manager Paul Heyman.

Saw this today. I'm in the verygood-not-great camp and the he's-made-this-movie-before camp. But it's very well made! I'm glad it exists.

My wife is the director of the native studies program at a university and they ended up buying out two theaters on opening night and inviting anyone from local communities to come for free.

The crowd I saw this with was like 90% indian representing some 20 different tribes, some of whom were absolutely old enough to relate the boarding school lament at the begging. The thing that stood out the most was when the owl showed up and there was an audible gasp from the crowd.

Jack White trying to do a Native American accent?

*frowns, checks Wikipedia* Oh THAT'S who he was playing. I was trying to place him! (But it was Isbell I was fucking racking my brains over, I was all "I KNOW THIS FUCKING FACE, FROM WHERE THOUGH." And who knew Pete Yorn could actually do something good or at least good enough.) Didn't recognize Sturgill Simpson at all and that's two movies in the course of four, five weeks now where I didn't realize that was him in a key role! Not a bad job in either.

Anyway, yes, I'm in the 'does feel of a piece with his work but it works' camp, happy to have seen it on the big screen. Posthumous kudos to Robbie Robertson, that was a sharp and well placed score too. Give Gladstone the Oscar and call it a day.

Jason Isbell was great in this

I'm relieved Scorsese and co-writer Eric Roth didn't focus on the Bureau of Investigation procedural stuff. THAT would've been tiresome.

not a leo fan but liked him in this, although it got tougher for me in the last third or so when he's given less & less to do other than just squint and make that one face that he always makes

― waste of compute (One Eye Open),

His crying scene in the last 25 minutes was, against every one of my expectations, the most convincing I've seen from a major American star in years. It felt earned.

armond unsurprisingly not a fan

I won't give him the click. Does he denounce Scorsese for surrendering to #woke by showing In-juns?

Close. For surrendering to #woke by hating America

But the goddamn Bureau of Investigation look like heroes for the first time in forever.

"Bah, big gov't, blah blah blah"

I won't give him the click. Does he denounce Scorsese for surrendering to #woke by showing In-juns?

― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, October 24, 2023 4:17 PM (forty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

one of the great things about letterboxd is his reviews are pasted there

Odd definition of "great," but that's true, Armond's barely coherent, clearly never-edited reviews are indeed posted on Letterboxd by someone, albeit more sporadically these days

Devery Jacobs (of Reservation Dogs goes IN:

Being Native, watching this movie was fucking hellfire. Imagine the worst atrocities committed against yr ancestors, then having to sit thru a movie explicitly filled w/ them, w/ the only respite being 30min long scenes of murderous white guys talking about/planning the killings ... It must be noted that Lily Gladstone is a an absolute legend & carried Mollie w/ tremendous grace. All the incredible Indigenous actors were the only redeeming factors of this film. Give Lily her goddamn Oscar ... But while all of the performances were strong, if you look proportionally, each of the Osage characters felt painfully underwritten, while the white men were given way more courtesy and depth ... Now, I can understand that Martin Scorsese’s technical direction is compelling & seeing $200mil on screen is a sight to behold. I get the goal of this violence is to add brutal shock value that forces people to understand the real horrors that happened to this community, BUT—I don’t feel that these very real people were shown honor or dignity in the horrific portrayal of their deaths. Contrarily, I believe that by showing more murdered Native women on screen, it normalizes the violence committed against us and further dehumanizes our people ... (And to top it off; to see the way that film nerds are celebrating and eating this shit up? It makes my stomach hurt.) I can’t believe it needs to be said, but Indig ppl exist beyond our grief, trauma & atrocities. Our pride for being Native, our languages, cultures, joy & love are way more interesting & humanizing than showing the horrors white men inflicted on us ... This is the issue when non-Native directors are given the liberty to tell our stories; they center the white perspective and focus on Native people’s pain ... For the Osage communities involved in creating this film; I can imagine how cathartic it is to have these stories and histories finally acknowledged, especially on such a prestigious platform like this film. There was beautiful work done by so many Wazhazhe on this film ... But admittedly, I would prefer to see a $200 million movie from an Osage filmmaker telling this history, any day of the week ... —and I’m sorry, but Scorsese choosing to end on a shot of Ilonshka dances and drumming? It doesn’t absolve the film from painting Native folks as helpless victims without agency ... RIP to Mollie, Anna, Minnie, Rita, & all the other very real Osage folks who were murdered over greed. Tobacco down for the countless Osage folks today, whose family histories have been marked by these atrocities. The pain is real & isn’t limited to the film’s 3hrs and 26 mins ... And a massive Fuck You to the real life, white Oklahomans, who still carry and benefit from these blood-stained headrights ... All in all, after 100 years of the way Indigenous communities have been portrayed in film, is this really the representation we needed #KillersOfTheFlowerMoon.

damn go off

I thought the film was great, but I always thought Scorsese's greatest strength as a filmmaker was the way his films explored human pathology, whether it's individual or societal. Some of the recent criticisms that he just handles masculine toxicity is misguided and inaccurate because a lot of what he's explored goes far beyond that. And that's the biggest impression I got from this one.

There's a heartbreaking shot somewhat early in the film where it's the first time King (De Niro) is shown addressing the Osage. It's already suggested earlier that he's done his research of their culture and history, but it's remarkable to hear him so fluent and comfortable speaking their language. The camera then pulls out, allowing the image of King to retreat into a packed and festive sight of Osage and white Americans celebrating side-by-side, appropriately for the marriage that involves both sides.
In effect, we're left with the harmonious sight of two different cultures knowing full well it's deceptive, part of a genocidal campaign by a man who's grown to know these people not out of kinship but out of unrepentant hatred with the intent to annihilate them. Given Scorsese's well-known love for The Searchers, it's likely he saw a parallel between King and Ethan Edwards's own familiarity with the Comanches - it's a fully realized idea in both films, but it has a bigger role here and becomes all the more impactful. I couldn't shake the feeling that it reflected the worst fears of any age-old conflict between two cultures, particularly of the most uncompromising individuals who argue for nihilistic actions because of their belief that peace and harmony is impossible.

I do believe that there should be films, hopefully great films, above Native American cultures that have the benefit of the experiences and perspectives of a Native American, it's a gaping hole in cinema as far as I'm concerned, but that's not something I'd use to criticize Scorsese's film, partly because this film is primarily about pathology - it's an ugly side of life and American culture, and as unpleasant as it may be, it's something that should be engaged with. You want to understand the world better and what it does to people, you have to be willing to explore the ugliness and messiness, and there aren't many (maybe any) filmmakers who do it as well as Scorsese. It also feels strange to criticize anyone for telling this particular story when it's something - as pointed out in the film - that was buried in history, a willful attempt to wipe away its memory as if to deny this wrong ever happened, that white Americans were still capable of this wrong decades after their conflict with Native Americans was ostensibly over.

That brings me to another thing I loved about the film - the ending, an artistic risk that worked extremely well IMHO. There's no getting around that this is still a commercial, Hollywood production made by an outsider to Native American culture, and Scorsese owns that fact, not only for himself but for film culture in general.

Also, I did not have an issue with DiCaprio as Ernest, far from it. I haven't seen his films in a long while so I came into this with a faint memory of whatever baggage he might have, and this is the best I've seen him outside of a charismatic "star" turn (in that category, my favorite is probably Catch Me If You Can). His physical and behavioral transformation seemed complete without coming off as forced or unnatural, and all of the shortcomings of his character (especially moral) were wholly convincing to me.

And Robbie Robertson's score was great, the best new music I've heard him make in a long while - I'm guessing he handled guitar (heard often at the start). But there were moments where I thought it would've been better to take out any scoring, like the first time Ernest enters Mollie's home.

*about Native American cultures

I believe that by showing more murdered Native women on screen, it normalizes the violence committed against us and further dehumanizes our people .

At the risk of trivializing the excellent points, this has been a complaint against film since its origins. I don't think Scorsese does -- most of the violence here is discreet and discrete. On the contrary: showing the gradual deterioration of Mollie under the insulin regimen registers the violence done to her by Hale, scientists, and the federal government ostensibly there to protect her.

The brilliancy of the ending is how he tacitly admitsd the subject deserves other films

great post, birdistheword

thanks k3vin!

Scorsese compares Hale to Ethan Edwards in a recent and very good interview in Sight And Sound.

On the contrary: showing the gradual deterioration of Mollie under the insulin regimen

idk if they’ve changed the formula between then and epipens becoming common but I took it as the poison or sedative or w/e added to every dose that was the problem, not the insulin

Not made clear.

I thought it was very clear; different vials, Ernest having that moment of putting the seperate poison vial in his drink out of guilt, the insulin coming at the start when Mollie needed to stay alive and the poison coming afterwards when they’d sorted out the rest of the family.

it did seem clear to me that providing the insulin itself wasn’t presented as intended to be harmful — but then again one wonders why hale would have helped arrange that in the first place, given his motives

Because a huge part of his motive is appearing the benevolent mediator between the Osage and white-world.

it did seem clear to me that providing the insulin itself wasn’t presented as intended to be harmful — but then again one wonders why hale would have helped arrange that in the first place, given his motives

because mollie needs to be the last surviving family member for the money to flow hale's way

Scorsese compares Hale to Ethan Edwards in a recent and very good interview in Sight And Sound.

Thanks! I just read it - there's even a line I totally missed where King quotes Edwards - "As sure as the turning of the earth, we’ll find them."

Saw this today, thought it very good. Strong performances. And really didn't feel long, it moves the story along well without ever seeming rushed. In re Devery Jacobs' concerns, I think all of that is true but also she's basically talking about a completely different movie. This one is really about its white characters, even though it's set in the midst of Osage culture.

I'd say it's best thought of as a portrait of white supremacy and what it does. It's about a specific set of people and actions, but more than that it's about the way racial/ethnic power and economic power reinforce and corrupt each other.

a small thing that made me irrationally distracted - did anyone catch that scorsese has two different cameos in this? his onscreen bit in the final scene, but also as the offscreen voice of the photographer taking the group photo in washington dc yelling "hold that pose president coolidge" or whatever he says? unless i'm mistaken? really threw me for a second. i know he likes to play with the form but imo you cant have two cameos as two different characters marty, its just too much.

it's a throwback move! he has a cameo as a guy watching Betsy walk past when we first see her in Taxi Driver, as well as his cameo as the deranged backseat passenger.

He’s done a few cameos as photographers/cameramen. At a club in ‘After Hours’ and as a portrait photographer in ‘Hugo’ and ‘The Age of Innocence’.

Must admit I didn’t spot his first cameo as the photographer taking President Coolidge’s photo.

I noticed that too. A conspicuous voiceover and he does have a pretty unique voice.

Me when Scorsese cameoed for the second time in Killers of the Flower Moon

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/033/487/rick.jpg