Israel to World: "Suck It."

they got like 44% of the vote in 2006 but I know nothing else about that election

On the whole 9/11 thing:

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/have-we-learned-nothing/

Only the most craven anti-Semites would minimize or sanitize the brutality of Hamas.

I don't find this to be true, unfortunately.

Yet time and time again, people downright refuse to even consider the brutality and murderousness of the IDF, of settlements, and of the occupation.

Yes.

I really hate the arguments about whether babies were beheaded, it's disgusting. There are other sources besides the single I24 journalist quoting the IDF guy (I posted one upthread) but it also doesn't fucking matter. They killed the babies deliberately whether they deliberately beheaded them or not. Hamas livestreamed themselves committing atrocities. The bodies are still being examined and identified. I don't even know if there's a final death count. They went into families' homes and agricultural communes and wiped entire families out. They beheaded people whether or not those included babies. There isn't actually anything calling this into real doubt that I am aware of, just some jackoffs on twitter. I guess it's easier to take a side if you don't have to believe that side could also have done anything wrong. It was legitimate horror. Everything is still being sorted through.

I don't believe that Bibi was looking for an excuse to invade Gaza again. It's not the way he has operated. They don't even seem prepared for a ground invasion. I keep hearing stories of reservists heading to the border with literally no supplies. The situation is a disaster for Bibi. The war is going to be brutal and already risks opening wars on other fronts. Gaza isn't far away like Iraq for the US, it's on the border. Lebanon is on the border. The West Bank is on the border. I don't believe Israel is prepared to reoccupy Gaza and I don't believe it has a clear idea what it is even going to do. This can spiral out of control. I believe he is simply covering incompetence with barbaric vengeance and explosions. I am open to evidence to the contrary but the narrative makes no sense to me.

they got like 44% of the vote in 2006 but I know nothing else about that election

― I? not I! He! He! HIM!

A single election almost two decades ago, in a place which has population age pyramid that Gaza does, its questionable what % of the current population even voted in that election, never mind would vote for them again now after 17 years in the unlikely event Hamas were to decide to stand for re-election

I thought Hamas kind of destroyed its opposition. I don’t know how meaningful an election would have been.

Polling from September suggests they still had about 40% but were behind Fatah, despite the narrative that the latter is all-but irrelevant, etc. Supposedly, their support had been bolstered recently by the loosening of the permit system, facilitated by both Hamas and Israel, that enabled some Gazans to work across the border.

September was a very, very long time ago in this context though.

That polling might have been across the whole of Palestine, rather than just Gaza, tbf.

Yeah when the new war cabinets says they're coming to get every Hamas member, it's not clear what that means. Entering the Gaza strip for close combat urban guerilla warfare is a death trap, and Hamas members can always just return to being civilians. Any intelligence about Hamas hide-outs must be limited and Hamas probably doesn't even have HQs. Evacuating a significant part of the 2 million civilians ? Egypt will be so happy. I think the strategy is indeed eye for eye in the short term, annexation in the long term. And "war cabinet" is just for show / distraction / political gain.

What might be coming next.

V informative piece in the Financial Times about Israel’s ground invasion tactics. The military capacity is terrifying. Behind a paywall but here are some key quotes:#Gaza #StopTheWar pic.twitter.com/mmPYLmPugR

— Ewa Jasiewicz (@ewa_jay) October 12, 2023

This seems the more important objection:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas has been used as a tool to maintain the occupation.

― ShariVari, Wednesday, 11 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Good piece, backing the one plax posted a few days ago.

For the avoidance of any doubt no one here condones the attack by Hamas full stop. Silence is my preferred mode rather than screaming condemnation. As we've all seen from VHS, staying a bit more silent on Hamas made him scream accusations of anti-Semitism, and once the surface was scratched further, claims that the land is of his "tribe".

It's a game I will not play when talking about this stuff (which is all any of us are doing here).

I don't think the current convo here was about condoning/denouncing so much as info on what Hamas' attacks actually entailed. fwiw I sympathize with the impulse to be skeptical on that due to the asymmetry in being able to get info out and the long history of misinformation, but also think man alive is otm that it was clearly a horrible event regardless of the grizzly details.

I don’t think so either, which is part of the reason I’m posting here again rather than other spaces it’s more prevalent. The second and third tweets in the Louis Allday thread posted above are pretty egregious examples tho.

https://i.postimg.cc/rwYcrGWs/3-B14-DBC3-49-AB-4-DE0-976-E-F26-E4-D8-FD0-FF.jpg

I haven't seen any posts here that could be construed as support for Hamas actions, I don't know where that idea came from

Both "support for Hamas" and "minimising Israel's crimes" are concerns ppl are raising about discourse outside the thread I think.

Outside of this thread I've seen all manner of wild and crazy talk, but inside the thread I didn't see anyone suggesting Hamas' actions were a positive development (though there were a lot of posts so may have missed)

The reason I was interested in the “beheading” distinction is because I was seeing signs that language was being picked up to further dehumanize, and therefore justify continued violence against, all Palestinians. Certain imagery has more symbolic value even if the distinction is technically unimportant.

Don’t like Hamas? Join Hamas. Change comes from within.

— Sam Knight (@samknight1) October 12, 2023

i did laugh at that one

Stay and fight imo

Fwiw I wasn’t suggesting that anyone in this thread was minimizing Hamas’ crimes, merely stating my frustration that borders on existential despair that the mainstream narrative being pushed denies even the category of “human” to Palestinian people.

It's back to the discussion on terror, but of course the cruelty matters - rape, killing children and worse - they're intentional and they're weapons and meant to scar a collective identity for life. One thing I will remember from the Hamas attack is the grenades thrown in packed civilian shelters, reportedly after exchanging words with the people inside. You don't do that without reason.

the use of political narrative always involves hiding, avoiding and distorting the realities of violence, because to really engage with the specificity of (political) violence would undermine the consent that political narratives seek to achieve

what that entails is that there's a perceived difference between systemic, gradual but relentless violence - the kind of thing all states routinely use to assert and maintain their authority - and the kinds of violence that are foregrounded when political struggle intensifies into "war"

i don't buy that distinction, it's all violence and we should ask ourselves whether hierarchies of cruelty are used to disguise the underlying reality

FWIW, I honestly appreciate some people in this thread posting things that a lot of us probably think go without saying. I'd read a couple of posts that have given me pause, but I did not feel comfortable saying anything myself.

I don't think the current convo here was about condoning/denouncing so much as info on what Hamas' attacks actually entailed. fwiw I sympathize with the impulse to be skeptical on that due to the asymmetry in being able to get info out and the long history of misinformation, but also think man alive is otm that it was clearly a horrible event regardless of the grizzly details.

― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 12 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Totally. The issues have been around verification and the sensationalised nature of some of the reporting. When something like this happens it does take a while for the picture to clear up.

I think that there was a lot of feeling that the immediate rush to rally for Palestine before the bodies were cold and before Israel had even struck back was gross, particularly where imagery directly lionizing the Hamas attackers was used. It felt like murder was being celebrated. I was also afraid for Palestinians that these rallies would seem very hollow soon because I knew the Israeli response was going to be an order of magnitude worse than prior actions. I doubted there was any victory for the Palestinian cause even trying to look at it objectively.

I don’t know if it matters that much now. Tone policing, rhetorical squabbling, it all feels very insignificant to me. Even an imperfect truce feels far away at the moment. There is full scale war. It is only beginning. It could get much worse. When a Palestinian child’s body is pulled from the rubble it is just more death. It adds to the pain, it doesn’t take away. Even if I believed it were possible to make some kind of limited surgical strike on Hamas I don’t think that’s what this government will do. If my kids’ cousins lose a father so that some other kids could also lose a father, what will be accomplished?

There was definitely some of that out there on twitter, but thats always going to be the case. I guess maybe there is some value in stating the obvious in the context of the thread but it never occurred to me that anyone would see what took place as a step in the right direction or leading to any kind of liberation

i don't buy that distinction, it's all violence and we should ask ourselves whether hierarchies of cruelty are used to disguise the underlying reality
― no gap tree for old men (Noodle Vague), Thursday, October 12, 2023 2:07 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I would argue that making distinctions is useful precisely because the shape that violence takes is different when it's institutionalized / legalized, when it's the result of asymmetric conflict, when groups blur the lines between state and non-state. Otherwise we lose track of responsibilities. By definition, the responsibilities (and potential impunity) of a sovereign state are greater than a paramilitary group that endorses violence.

that's a fair point, tho those assymetries are exactly what disguises the nature and extent of state violence. i guess what i was waffling about is that most people will agree that violence in and of itself is horrific, but if you focus your discussions on that you can distract from the power relationships underlying it, which media outlets in particular generally seem happy to do

also i think it's wrong to say that this most recent Hamas action has achieved nothing. it will have political effects down the line, it's having political effects now and only time will tell us how this shakes out. that isn't to say the action was justified, but it's wrong to characterise it as purposeless

and i definitely wouldn't say violence can never be justified. violence is still the underlying tool of hegemonic power

I just think it’s fucked up that a US president can just say that he saw pictures of beheaded babies and then it turns out that no, he hadn’t actually. after his comments had already been picked up widely, of course.

yes it is ghoulish and ultimately meaningless to discuss whether or not it happened, because dead babies are dead babies. but it does matter, the role that this kind of misinformation plays in justifying further violence - everyone involved is guilty of it but it’s worth considering how effective it can be, especially when there’s unequal reach and access to global media.

I would argue that making distinctions is useful precisely because the shape that violence takes is different when it's institutionalized / legalized, when it's the result of asymmetric conflict, when groups blur the lines between state and non-state.

otm

the clarification from the White House:

Clarification from the White House regarding Biden's remarks https://t.co/8fXafd5Bpn https://t.co/zsEf93bH0g pic.twitter.com/N7ci2jHXf2

— Evan Hill (@evanhill) October 12, 2023

Just to say that there are a lot of celebs out there showing their whole asses on social media. Jesus.

I didn't mean to characterise it as purposeless. Everyone and his dog knows what Israel's response would be, so the purpose was to presumably to elicit that response. What the purpose of eliciting that response would be is another question

"I just think it’s fucked up that a US president can just say that he saw pictures of beheaded babies and then it turns out that no, he hadn’t actually."

More intelligence/advisor failures.

'clarification'

I don’t know any better than anyone else but I tend to think events can be chaotic and unpredictable. I don’t think everything is always according to someone’s plan. Maybe Bibi believed Hamas really was planning something but overconfidently underestimated their capabilities or overestimated the effectiveness of the security present there. Maybe Hamas in fact underestimated how “successful” this attack would be or how devastating it would be. Both have been engaged in a cat and mouse game of low level conflict but sometimes that can spiral out of control. It’s hard for me to imagine either is getting “exactly what they wanted” now.

Yeah, as any number of examples illustrate it is far easier to initiate violent action than it is to predict or control its outcomes. Except that you can reliably predict that innocent people will suffer, and the most vulnerable people in any given population or area will suffer the most.

"no one colonizes innocently, that no one colonizes with impunity either; that a nation which colonizes, that a civilization which justifies colonization—and therefore force—is already a sick civilization, a civilization which is morally diseased"- Aimé Césaire https://t.co/8LIYLz0iZg

— ♥️🐈‍⬛ نورهان (@islamocommunism) October 12, 2023

Both have been engaged in a cat and mouse game of low level conflict but sometimes that can spiral out of control. It’s hard for me to imagine either is getting “exactly what they wanted” now.

I mostly agree here, but people gamble, people make mistakes, people can have access to information we don't. Hamas might have felt they were being squeezed out and wanted to put a break on normalisation before the window shut, decisions might not be perfect but seen as the best option available at the time

neither side might be getting "exactly what they wanted" now, but think they will in time. Also if its true Hamas top brass didn't know about this (was this verified yet or not?), that could point to disagreement or perceived disagreement.

But either way, given the target, size, and manner its difficult for me to believe Hamas didn't fully understand the immediate consequences and factor them in

nothing more performative than posting recognition of Indigenous People's Day while posting I Stand with Israel at the same time

I get what you're saying but I also dislike the idea that 'because you support x you must also support y'. There are similarities between Palestinians and native americans in the US, and there are major differences, and it is not helpful to conflate the two populations.

nah

apartheid is apartheid, occupation is occupation, I don't care if the specific details don't match line for line.

It's the thoughtlessness of the performativity, as performativity often is.

Dude I'm Oglala and I'm here to tell you that both natives in the US and jews have been targets of genocide. I dislike 'occupation' too but there are obvious differences between the population of Jews in Israel (who have roots that stretch back thousands of years) and white people in the US, who were not at all present in this region. It's apples and oranges. But yes, the performativity is lame.

I suppose we'll find out one day but I suspect Hamas didn't expect there to be absolutely no major security presence and for this attack to be quite as devastating as it turned out to be.