Israel to World: "Suck It."

i don't think you have to look very hard to see examples of this.

x post

I don't doubt there's ppl doing it, I do doubt the usefulness of focusing on these ppl like they have the power to affect anything at all even in the discourse, let alone actual politics.

xpost sure, you can find examples of anything anywhere, that doesn't mean it's a thing worthy of writing an article about, esp since she never really names who she sees doing this. People with lots of numbers in their handle on Twitter?

Daniel otm

I mean I've seen at least three people say "raze Gaza to the ground" in the last 24 hours, can I write a companion article to indicate this only helps fuel militant anti-semitism

as always, people need to do more judicious pruning of their social media feeds and stop writing stories about how someone said something shitty on the internet

yeah, the number of normie liberals I've heard mouth semi-genocidal stuff in the past few days...

The most prominent celebrator of the Hamas attacks is a pornstar afaict

Thank fuck, once again, I don't use Twitter.

if you want to see Penaldo fans making up fake stats to illustrate his superiority over Messi, it's the place to be!

In terms of "celebrating," BLM Chicago posted a really really terrible pro-Hamas tweet that I'm not even going to link to. But definitely not doing themselves (or anyone) any favors.

all the social media posts chastising me for my "silence"

or telling me that people talking about "moral equivalency" will be unfollowed

this is ethnic cleansing. there is no ability for palestinians who leave to return. this isn’t a “good compromise”, this is a population transfer. has everyone lost their minds https://t.co/RDKrakGTcm

— michael wave (@SzMarsupial) October 11, 2023

yeah, they've got no right of return. That's not leadership it's fucking cowardice and is actually ethnic cleansing.

Do people with no ties to terrorism groups long to stay there if offered another place to go? I wish there was a way of getting some data on this

— Jonathon (@scottjok) October 11, 2023

the data brain

Soon, the last sliver of electricity and connection will be exhausted. If I die, remember that I, we, were individuals, humans, we had names, dreams, and achievements, and our only fault was that we were just classified as inferior.

— Belal Aldabbour (@Belalmd12) October 11, 2023

So, is the "Hamas beheaded babies" story real or not? I was under the impression there was no evidence but Biden said a short time ago there are confirmed photos. This is the exact kind of thing it's hard to find reliable info for anymore.

it sounds to me like the IDF confirmed it; whether they are reliable or not, I don't know.

either way, these babies appear to be dead; whether they are dead because someone removed their heads or because someone did something else to them, seems irrelevant.

lindsay graham - go fuck yourself

Yeah I think the larger point is that they went into Kibbutzes and family homes and killed everyone, including babies, so whether they also specifically beheaded them is almost beside the point. However, this journalists seems to be claiming confirmation independent of that initial i24 report or the word of IDF spokespeople. Any reason to believe this person isn't trustworthy?
https://x.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651?s=20

she is french and on X, immediately suspect (just kidding)

Please read this whole thread but: Israel’s right-wing La Familia football hooligans are going to hospitals where injured Gazan militants are rumored to be treated and threatening, harassing, and spitting on medical staff. They are proving right the worst assumptions of Israelis https://t.co/of6jWSPEDV

— ‏تمار 🌴 Тама́р 🌴 תמר (@tamars) October 11, 2023

Yeah, fuck those guys.

Consider including Latin America, the Caribbean, different African countries, Ireland, etc.

Powerful. This man has lost family in Gaza over the last couple of days.

“It’s the Palestinians that are always expected to condemn themselves” 🇵🇸 watch it. Then watch it again. pic.twitter.com/UO4tMFvF2E

— 🐘 (@mariyyum) October 11, 2023

from what I have seen the dubious beheaded babies story was started by an Israeli journo quoting an IDF soldier, which is not a remotely credible scenario and it was neither corroborated nor denied by the IDF. Of course they won't deny it when they are planning a ground invasion of Gaza and are killing babies themselves.

It has been corroborated by the IDF and civilian emergency rescue / recovery workers. The initial reporting may have irresponsible but appears to be at least partly correct.

Not aimed at anyone here, I’m not sure there is much to be gained from the impulse to minimise or disbelieve Hamas’ brutality, even if some of the reporting looks sketchy or social media noise means certain claims don’t immediately check out. This was a terrorist action aimed, in large part, at civilians by an organisation that has no qualms about committing crimes against humanity.

This seems the more important objection:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas has been used as a tool to maintain the occupation.

_Consider including Latin America, the Caribbean, different African countries, *Ireland*, etc._


???

Man alive, many xps but I thought your post was excellent, truly from the heart. I don’t really have anything useful to add itt, the whole situation is horrific with seemingly no end in sight, but your post really spoke to the horror of the situation & I appreciated the perspective it gave me. Genuinely thank you.

i thin gyac was just expressing gratitude that ireland was included as it's often overlooked

xp oh yeah i was thinking about it slightly differently carry on

I just want to push back on something ShariVari wrote.

Only the most craven anti-Semites would minimize or sanitize the brutality of Hamas.

Yet time and time again, people downright refuse to even consider the brutality and murderousness of the IDF, of settlements, and of the occupation.

This isn’t saying anything negative about ShariVari’s post or pointed at anyone here, but the vast denial of the violence that is enacted upon Palestinians every second of their lives is maddening.

maybe only the most ideologically committed can drive the way things progress.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

this last line left me thinking on yeats' position on the worst and their passionate intensity

RE: the 'baby beheading' thing.. firstly, an AK-47 can do truly horrific things to a human body, whether or not that was the intended outcome, so it's quite possible that this was observed; secondly, I think they really want to paint Hamas as ISIS clones, I've already heard this language being used. ISIS was pretty generally loathed, even within the Arab world, so to paint Hamas with this brush can help delegitimize the entire Gaza plight, and allow Israel wide latitude to remove them from power by any means necessary

It's worth noting that Hamas is not particularly loved within Gaza - they seized power due to winning a civil war, not free & fair elections

they got like 44% of the vote in 2006 but I know nothing else about that election

On the whole 9/11 thing:

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/have-we-learned-nothing/

Only the most craven anti-Semites would minimize or sanitize the brutality of Hamas.

I don't find this to be true, unfortunately.

Yet time and time again, people downright refuse to even consider the brutality and murderousness of the IDF, of settlements, and of the occupation.

Yes.

I really hate the arguments about whether babies were beheaded, it's disgusting. There are other sources besides the single I24 journalist quoting the IDF guy (I posted one upthread) but it also doesn't fucking matter. They killed the babies deliberately whether they deliberately beheaded them or not. Hamas livestreamed themselves committing atrocities. The bodies are still being examined and identified. I don't even know if there's a final death count. They went into families' homes and agricultural communes and wiped entire families out. They beheaded people whether or not those included babies. There isn't actually anything calling this into real doubt that I am aware of, just some jackoffs on twitter. I guess it's easier to take a side if you don't have to believe that side could also have done anything wrong. It was legitimate horror. Everything is still being sorted through.

I don't believe that Bibi was looking for an excuse to invade Gaza again. It's not the way he has operated. They don't even seem prepared for a ground invasion. I keep hearing stories of reservists heading to the border with literally no supplies. The situation is a disaster for Bibi. The war is going to be brutal and already risks opening wars on other fronts. Gaza isn't far away like Iraq for the US, it's on the border. Lebanon is on the border. The West Bank is on the border. I don't believe Israel is prepared to reoccupy Gaza and I don't believe it has a clear idea what it is even going to do. This can spiral out of control. I believe he is simply covering incompetence with barbaric vengeance and explosions. I am open to evidence to the contrary but the narrative makes no sense to me.

they got like 44% of the vote in 2006 but I know nothing else about that election

― I? not I! He! He! HIM!

A single election almost two decades ago, in a place which has population age pyramid that Gaza does, its questionable what % of the current population even voted in that election, never mind would vote for them again now after 17 years in the unlikely event Hamas were to decide to stand for re-election

I thought Hamas kind of destroyed its opposition. I don’t know how meaningful an election would have been.

Polling from September suggests they still had about 40% but were behind Fatah, despite the narrative that the latter is all-but irrelevant, etc. Supposedly, their support had been bolstered recently by the loosening of the permit system, facilitated by both Hamas and Israel, that enabled some Gazans to work across the border.

September was a very, very long time ago in this context though.

That polling might have been across the whole of Palestine, rather than just Gaza, tbf.

Yeah when the new war cabinets says they're coming to get every Hamas member, it's not clear what that means. Entering the Gaza strip for close combat urban guerilla warfare is a death trap, and Hamas members can always just return to being civilians. Any intelligence about Hamas hide-outs must be limited and Hamas probably doesn't even have HQs. Evacuating a significant part of the 2 million civilians ? Egypt will be so happy. I think the strategy is indeed eye for eye in the short term, annexation in the long term. And "war cabinet" is just for show / distraction / political gain.

What might be coming next.

V informative piece in the Financial Times about Israel’s ground invasion tactics. The military capacity is terrifying. Behind a paywall but here are some key quotes:#Gaza #StopTheWar pic.twitter.com/mmPYLmPugR

— Ewa Jasiewicz (@ewa_jay) October 12, 2023

This seems the more important objection:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas has been used as a tool to maintain the occupation.

― ShariVari, Wednesday, 11 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Good piece, backing the one plax posted a few days ago.

For the avoidance of any doubt no one here condones the attack by Hamas full stop. Silence is my preferred mode rather than screaming condemnation. As we've all seen from VHS, staying a bit more silent on Hamas made him scream accusations of anti-Semitism, and once the surface was scratched further, claims that the land is of his "tribe".

It's a game I will not play when talking about this stuff (which is all any of us are doing here).

I don't think the current convo here was about condoning/denouncing so much as info on what Hamas' attacks actually entailed. fwiw I sympathize with the impulse to be skeptical on that due to the asymmetry in being able to get info out and the long history of misinformation, but also think man alive is otm that it was clearly a horrible event regardless of the grizzly details.

I don’t think so either, which is part of the reason I’m posting here again rather than other spaces it’s more prevalent. The second and third tweets in the Louis Allday thread posted above are pretty egregious examples tho.

https://i.postimg.cc/rwYcrGWs/3-B14-DBC3-49-AB-4-DE0-976-E-F26-E4-D8-FD0-FF.jpg

I haven't seen any posts here that could be construed as support for Hamas actions, I don't know where that idea came from

Both "support for Hamas" and "minimising Israel's crimes" are concerns ppl are raising about discourse outside the thread I think.