Israel to World: "Suck It."

Nah, I just criticised and villified Hamas actions and been clear that I do not believe it will help palestinians and make things worse even and have many times expressed the desire for a sovereign occupation free and blockade free Palestine, while you have said nothing about Israeli deaths, even retweeting someone ‘celebrating resistance’ which so far as been less resistance and more a horrible massacre of innocent civilians and insinuating jews love dead children (a classic!) or are not indigenous to the land they belong to (another one!).

Big assumptions here.

For sure! I am making assumptions but holding them very loosely, I don't have enough of a handle to state these assumptions with any level of conviction whatsoever, I just don't really understand why there wasn't much defence in that location, or if its normal to have that little defence, or to what level personnel was moved. Or if intelligence/military was this unprepared why this hasn't happened more often previously

Any recommendations for people to read/watch on the mechanics of this would be good

I know getting to the FP count is very hard these days but we did it before and friends, I believe we can do it again.

From reports in the Arab press, it’s not clear that the majority of Hamas’ leadership knew about it until after it had happened,

It feels a fairly sizeable operation to pull off without leadership knowing? Unless there's new leadership or power struggle? I guess still pretty early to tell much though

VHS: That person I cited is a left-wing Jew who I think has more skin in the game than you and most of us. It didn't take you long to play the antisemite card either.

"been clear that I do not believe it will help palestinians and make things worse"

This is concern trolling from people who aren't locked in a concentration camp.

they'd shifted a lot of resources from around gaza to the west bank this year in order to take a more aggressive approach with the settlements. my understanding is that's to do with the keeping the far right parties (who joined the government after the most recent election) happy

ufo, thanks, thats sort of what I had assumed, something to do with the new far right partners in the coalition - but does Israel really not have enough forces to do both? But "lets bulldoze the West Bank settlements and wing it on Gaza" does feel somewhat less conspiratorial than "lets create pretext for 'something' in Gaza" when they could presumably just do that anyway

ShariVari, who is a good resource or goto on this?

You know exactly what you are doing by repeating the term concentration camp in this context and to a jewish person.

At this points its between you and your terminaly online conscience.

"You know exactly what you are doing by repeating the term concentration camp in this context and to a jewish person."

What do you think this is then? Please educate my "online conscience".

ufo, thanks, thats sort of what I had assumed, something to do with the new far right partners in the coalition - but does Israel really not have enough forces to do both? But "lets bulldoze the West Bank settlements and wing it on Gaza" does feel somewhat less conspiratorial than "lets create pretext for 'something' in Gaza" when they could presumably just do that anyway

ShariVari, who is a good resource or goto on this?

― anvil, Monday, October 9, 2023 4:55 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A country with a hundred time the security apparatus of Israel allowed something like 9/11 to happen. Sometimes it slips.

well, clearly israel did not have enough forces to increase aggression in the west bank while maintaining the same level around gaza. i'm not very convinced this is some any sort of deliberate move because it has been disastrous for netanyahu and would be at best an absurdly risky gamble

What do you think this is then? Please educate my "online conscience".

― xyzzzz__, Monday, October 9, 2023 5:03 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It’s a blockade, and the interior affairs of Gaza are
run by Hamas who explicitely want to destroy the entire State of Israel, does not recognize a path to peace and uses Gaza has a launching pad to fire rockets at their enemy (including civilians) in the hopes of showing who is boss. Not only is this escalation stupid and useless to every day gazans, they haven’t gained anything substantial since the evacuation. Worse, it gives justification for Israeli far right shit heads to do what they love to do: keep a status quo with the blockade with the notion security to slowly eat away at territory and human rights and use the occasional bombing to keep the army well stretched. With stupid Hamas doing what they do, far right Israeli can say ‘see? we shouldn’t leave the WB, because this is what will happen’.

Gazans do protest against the islamo-fascist rule of Hamas, and they know very well they are being played into the hands of Nethanyahu for nothing more than a show of force. If they can get out with Israeli work permits they will (those have handed more last year than ever iirc). It’s a horrible situation, with plenty of blame to go around and obviously too much misery but to make analogous to concentration camp is just lazy and meant to hurt.

(One way out of this mess is if in the peace process an actor can guarantee security to the new state of Palestine, only Saudi Arabia has the power to do so, as
it is also an important ally to the US and Israel wouldn’t be able to cross out. It would also have the authority and power over other islamic nations to help swallow the pill of recognising a Jewish state. Saudi Arabia is warming up to the idea, and will obviously be very keen on the end of occupation in WB and blockade in Gaza. Plus it wants to trade with Israel. Hamas (with the green light of Iran) hate the idea so they launch this dumb attack which will result in nothing but further loss of life on both sides of the fence. It’s not resistance, it’s proxy war shit, it’s killing civilians and it’s escalating and perpetuating the conflict that has been a catastrophe first and foremost for Palestinian civilians.)

Forgot to mention also SA likely wants green light nuclear capability from US in exchange of recognising Israel.

Also, anvil, the security apparatus of Israel really dislikes this far right government and a conspiration theory that will probably be popular within their electoral base was the security agrncies let it slip up for Nethanyahu to look bad.

"It’s a blockade, and the interior affairs of Gaza are
run by Hamas who explicitely want to destroy the entire State of Israel, does not recognize a path to peace and uses Gaza has a launching pad to fire rockets at their enemy (including civilians) in the hopes of showing who is boss. Not only is this escalation stupid and useless to every day gazans, they haven’t gained anything substantial since the evacuation."

You have a lot that you refuse to learn. Palestinians have had their land dispossessed. You know a blockade is simply a polite term for a concentration camp. People are trapped in militarised zone. They have no water and electricity. This is a concebtration camp.

And you go on about Hamas but the PLO have been called terrorists in the past while Israel themselves (as detailed in the piece Plax posted on Saturday) used Hamas in the past for their own benefit. Anyone who supports Palestinian rights have been called antisemites, and you use this here. You choose to talk over left-wing Jews that I have cited -- while implying without stating you are Jewish too. What is this behaviour? Aren't you ashamed?

It is not a militarized zone, there is no IDF presence in Gaza, do you even know the simple facts?

Yes, Hamas is playing into the hands of Nethanyahu, and the right wing government, and the IDF, i have described this symbiosis in my post. If you acknowledge this, then you acknowledge that Hamas isn’t really doing anything in the best interest of Gazans, in which case don’t you think the hurrahs for Hamas should be a little tonned down? If you can’t for mass murder of civilians maybe you could do for this?

And no i’m not talking over a jewish person as I’m part of that tribe.

Do you know people have been displaced from their land? There is a lack of electricity and drinkable water in Gaza, no employment or rights that you and I take for granted. You go on about their Greenhouses as if they should just live in Gaza for the rest of their lives. Who do you think you are fooling?

"And no i’m not talking over a jewish person as I’m part of that tribe."

This is plain weird. People would surely say they are either Jewish or not. Are you Jewish?

Do you know jews have been displaced from their lands too? This is the story of two indigenous people wanting to exercice their right to self determination. Anyone who thinks the other shouldn’t be allowed is a bigot.

I’m using the greenhouse exemple to illustrate how Hamas is using the economy of Gaza to their ends which is not beneficial to Gazans but only to their proxy war. I maintain that it could have been a boon to their economy, food security and unemployment issues. I don’t really see how destruction of the only option for farming in such a small place is not a big issue. Gazans have said as such for a long time now. I just happen to think Gazans deserve better than Hamas and the Israeli blockade.

You keep conflating Gaza and Hamas as if it were the exact same one monolithic entity and at this point I’m wondering if you have a grasp of what Hamas is, what Gaza is, beyong sloganeering and retweets.

This is plain weird. People would surely say they are either Jewish or not. Are you Jewish?

― xyzzzz__, Monday, October 9, 2023 6:15 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes I am.

So why do you talk over the many Jewish people (one of whom I cited) that don't agree with the displacement of Palestinians. You think the Nakba was the right thing to do, do you?

"I maintain that it could have been a boon to their economy, food security and unemployment issues"

They have been forcibly confined there. That seems to be your solution for people that may not want this. That this is was pretty much your first reaction to the attacks as I revived the thread is telling.

I don’t think nor I have ever said that the 3000 greenhouses are the only thing Gazans need, nor have I ever said the Nakba is a good thing, as I believe it was the bad thing to do. You really are trying to put words in my mouth.

Also it wasn’t my first reaction, and I was answering a food security tweet you posted.

Also me being jewish doesn’t mean I have to agree with another jewish person, such a weird thing to say. And wouldn’t that make you talking over a jewish person anyway?

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

— Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian (@manniefabian) October 9, 2023

Israel has two options to get rid of Hamas, it can begin a schedule of negotiated peace talks promising to withdraw from illegal settlements, end human rights abuses and begin restitutions. Or it can continue to bomb schools and hospitals, shoot journalists and doctors, and prevent vital goods, including food, from entering an enormous open air prison whose borders it militarily patrols.

Its clear that the response from allies within the international community to condemn only Hamas is intended to enable the second option without ever considering the first.

I agree with Rivkah's pov and not yours. I don't want you to be talked over. Like many here I want you to be banned because you deny Palestinians their land and humanity -- but I guess that's on your offline conscience xp

Plax otm again. Hamas is what you have now. No use screaming about what a shame this is.

“Israel has two options to get rid of Hamas, it can begin a schedule of negotiated peace talks promising to withdraw from illegal settlements, end human rights abuses and begin restitutions.“

“Hamas has two options to get rid of the blockade, it can begin a schedule of negotiated peace talks promising to withdraw weaponry, accept Israel per the 1967 lines, end killings and abuses of Gazans and Israeli and begin restitutions.“

Illegal under Articles 33 and 55 of the Geneva Conventions. This is one reason the habit of asserting that Israel (or indeed any nation) has an ‘absolute’ right to defend itself is dangerous. https://t.co/DSimm4tBb2

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) October 9, 2023

The concern trolling response regarding the backlash that will inevitably be unleashed on the civilian populations of Gaza and the West Bank does two things:

Absolves the Israeli state from needing to comply with the barest fig leaf of human rights law by framing acts of collective punishment which directly and grossly contravene the Geneva Convention (articles 33 and 35). The conflation of Gaza and Hamas has been a long term project by the Israeli state to justify and evade responsibilities for its ongoing atrocities to the point where it is universally acknowledged that this will be the direct outcome. It is unforseeable that the Israeli government and security forces would respond with the slightest restraint or even compliance with recognised human rights standards. Civilian 'collatoral' in Gaza are 'human shields' deployed by Gaza, but militarised populations living on the frontiers of illegal settlements (moved there by the Israeli state) are somehow not considered in this way.

Erases the larger context of violence that this takes place within. In 2018 when Gazans mounted a peaceful protest at the border of the narrow ('non-militarised') are they live in, 8,000 of them were shot with live ammunition. Hundreds were killed an many more wounded, including journalists and medics. Live on television. Right wing Israeli politicians have subsequently escalated their calls to entirely eliminate the Palestinian populations. Many have said that while they fear the retaliation that will inevitably follow, many civilians would likely have been murdered by soldiers regardless. In this light its quite difficult to disaggregate the Palestinians that will be murdered because of the events of the last few days from the ones that would have been murdered anyway.

More broadly, the asymmetries of power, wealth, technology and military might that enable Israeli apartheid ultimately enable a moral asymmetry that only values the humanity of the powerful and despises the weak. We used to have a name for that.

Since the state of Israel began with an ethnic cleansing— this is indisputable— there is some rationality in questioning whether Israel has ever wanted a two-state solution, particularly given the events since the 1948 expulsions, such as those recent events mentioned by plax above. Among hundreds of others

One can hope for such a solution, but at a certain point, it simply becomes a stopgap measure of hope allowing the continuity of apartheid and the immiseration of Palestinians at the hands of Israel and its supporters.

Settler colonialism will always find ways to justify its violence.

VHS: Netanyahu slipped.

Israeli newspaper editorial:

Editorial board of Haaretz, Israel's leading newspaper, says Netanyahu himself is squarely responsible for the disaster, having ignored the potential consequences of escalating aggression toward Palestinians. pic.twitter.com/Dy5I70wmTY

— Nathan J Robinson (@NathanJRobinson) October 9, 2023

The use of white phosphorus as a weapon is prohibited. Not only does it burn people but it causes devastating health issues in the long term too. This is horrific. Unfortunately, it is not the first time the IDF has used it in its attacks on the Gaza Strip. https://t.co/qCp7UpsLLL

— Arnesa Buljušmić-Kustura (@Rrrrnessa) October 9, 2023

I agree with that statement.

You really don’t understand anything.

“ Since the state of Israel began with an ethnic cleansing— this is indisputable— there is some rationality in questioning whether Israel has ever wanted a two-state solution, particularly given the events since the 1948 expulsions, such as those recent events mentioned by plax above. Among hundreds of others”

What do you mean by ‘Israel’ ? Because there’s always been a sizeable amount of Israelis who wanted the two-state solution. And it has come pretty close to reality a few times.

VHS have you noticed that when you post everyone hates it? Could you maybe have a think about that? And try to see that it might not just be because you’re unleashing unpopular truth bombs on us poor benighted souls but because of your hostile tone and your refusal to engage with criticism?

"What do you mean by ‘Israel’ ?"

You see, it's really complicated when a senior politician in 'Israel' calls Palestinians "human animals".

Highly complex issue xp

Not nearly as hostile as condoning the killing of several hundred jewish civilians whose only fault were being jewish in their homeland.

No matter how reasonable VHS is trying to be now, he came out with "Why do you hate Jews?" earlier so fuck him.

amirite people

xpost

I believe people who have mass murdered and mass killed civilians are human animals, regardless of ethnicity or situation.

Oh right. I wasn't aware the Israeli government were selectively denying electricity, fuel and food to Hamas members only and not to the entire population of Gaza

I believe people who have mass murdered and mass killed civilians are human animals, regardless of ethnicity or situation.

― Van Horn Street, Monday, 9 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Interesting. So the IDF who kill and dispossess Palestinian civilians are not this? It needs to be a mass murder to qualify. Right, ok.

It’s been two days and not a single poster made a post that wasn’t ‘it is horrible jewish people have died BUT’, it really shows how little jewish life is valuable to you lot.

fuckin hell dude yes i said regardless of ethnicity or situation, Netanyahu is an animal, the IDF are animals, Hamas are animals.

stop portraying me as someone who supports the Israeli government or the IDF. I hate both.

chefs kiss

"whose only fault were being jewish in their homeland."

Just a little party in "their homeland" is it now?

stop portraying me as someone who supports the Israeli government or the IDF. I hate both.

― Van Horn Street, Monday, 9 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

But you are agreeing with an Israeli government minister calling Palestinians "human animals"? How is this my fault? Can't you own your own posts?

When one group utilizes its historical oppression and expulsion as an ideological justification to oppress and expel others, it calls into question anything that this group does.

This is true of all settler states. This isn’t that difficult.