Israel to World: "Suck It."

Some countries are not in the strong cultural position the US is in. If Tibet would become a country it would be to benefit Tibetans first and foremost and no one would bat an eyelash, same for the Kurds really. Bengalis did that, and so did a few balkans countries. If Palestine were to exist, which we will all hope it will, do you think it will be anything other than a homeland for the Palestinian people?

Also half the political spectrum of american politics is very much defining itself as homeland for certain people at the expense of others, and historically it has been a dominant way of thinking, which eventually led to the cultural position the US is in. It’s not whatabboutism, 99% of us come from countries doing evil shit, I still think we can go to concerts and enjoy our lives, why not Israelis?

It’s not whatabboutism, 99% of us come from countries doing evil shit, I still think we can go to concerts and enjoy our lives, why not Israelis?

sure, why even bother wishing anything were better

The difference is that in the US, in theory, everyone has the right to vote and everyone is under the same law and enjoys the same rights regardless of ethnicity. IN THEORY. That's not the case in the West Bank, where there's one law for the Israeli settlers and a different one for Palestinians, where Israeli settlers can vote in Israeli elections but Palestinians can't, where Israelis have a road system that Palestinians aren't allowed to use, where there are restrictions on movement for Palestinians but not for Israelis, etc etc etc.

And yet the US actually funds Israel and its apartheid regime in the WB itself. Do you need the entire list of awful regime change and support the US has done?

So why are musicians still making tour stops in the US in the first place, beyond money and the lack of conscience?

I don't think there's really a moral binary here, it's possible to believe that Israel's abandonment of even the pretense of a two-state solution and its sad slide into becoming just another brutal right-wing fundamentalist state in a region already full of them is the single greatest contributor to the ongoing crisis AND that murdering and kidnapping people because of the actions of their government is terrible.

There aren't any good guys here imo, just a lot of victims who may have varying levels of what we might consider "innocence" but regardless of that mostly just want to live their lives and don't "deserve" to be killed. Anyway, I have no doubt that before this particular round is over, Israel will see to it that the civilian casualty count is as lopsided as it always is in this unbelievably stupid, destructive and avoidable conflict.

America and Israel are both rogue terrorist states that the world is ultimately better off without. There.

the key issue is that there is a palestinian-led boycott movement with the aim of ending the occupation, quite directly comparable to the anti-apartheid movement.

“Violent resistance is immoral, you should only act non-violently.”

“No, not like that!”

Violent resistance against an army and killing and raping civilians are two different things, Hamas does both, if you think the latter it’s justifiable you are as psychopathic as Irgun soldiers.

You have to be a psychopath to support caging and segregating Palestinians. Israelis treat them like subhumans, and it’s little wonder they’ve revolted. You can only poke a hornet’s nest before you get stung, asshole

Listen, I am not even against killing IDF soldiers or bombing military targets.

I do not support the occupation nor the blockade and I believe in a peaceful two states solution. It is not exactly a controversial position.

Whereas you seem to be this freaking close of justifying the killing and raping of innocent civilians.

Think about it for two minutes.

And if you believe that killing hundreds of civilians is going to help Palestinians gain any sympathy throughout the world and from ~the major partners in the peace process, you are wrong.

who are you talking to?

You cared more about fucking greenhouses than civilians at the start of this. Fuck off xp

And I wouldn't moralise unless you've been in a concentration camp for 20 years.

Though I imagine many of you would happily be a pawn of Hamas and he called a terrorist if you had the chance to tear a fence down that kept you from your home for decades.

"and that what Hamas did yesterday is no more a liberatory strike on behalf of Palestinian freedom than 9/11 was a liberatory strike against US imperialism. (And yes, I know there are people who do see 9/11 that way -- I don't and I don't think many of you do either.)"

Even with that caveat the comparison with 9/11 is absolutely vile. That attack was solely aimed at civilian targets. This was not.

Please don't reply to this. Keep your mouth firmly shut.

Please don't reply to this. Keep your mouth firmly shut.

You are justifying the killing of 700 civilians, even knowing full well the consequence of this mass murder will be an even higher death toll for palestinians.

This is how much you hate jews.

I would assume incompetence over conspiracy - using the military and intelligence apparatus for domestic repression seems likely to make it worse at doing its usual job.

I know it normally makes sense to assume incompetence, but a state that spends as much of its budget on military and intelligence as Israel does, and takes it as seriously as Israel does, to move military personnel in such a way that a large scale operation coincided with comparatively minimal defence seems out of character (the fact it also occurred as a music festival was in such an odd location feels more like a mix of coincidence and opportunity, doesn't exactly help, what a truly bizarre location to put a festival)

Anyway, not saying I think its one thing or another, I have no idea. I'm mainly looking for someone credible to cover the hows and whys of this particular operation. I'm not particularly familiar with good analysts on this

(xp) I've kept my mouth shut so far but you are an absolutely vile cunt who should just fuck off and go and troll away somewhere a long long way from here.

You cared more about fucking greenhouses than civilians at the start of this. Fuck off xp

― xyzzzz__, Monday, October 9, 2023 3:04 AM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It’s a point of contention for Gazans in their protests against Hamas as recently as a few months ago so yes it freaking matters, 3000 greenhouses matters when there is a food security issue you idiot.

By the way I don't see how this "benefits" Netanyahu one iota. One of the main reason - if not the main reason - Netanyahu has been electorally so successful is the idea that he's strong on defence, so even Israelis who don't like him have voted for him on the past. Now he's presided over the biggest security and intelligence disaster on Israel's history, having spent the last few months attacking Israeli democracy and alienating vast numbers of Israeli citizens, reservists and the security forces

BBC doing what they do best: push Israel's narrative. However, @hzomlot did a brilliant job of challenging the hypocrisy of the BBC👍👍. One of the best interviews I’ve seen.

Please watch the video below 👇

Some key points made my Husam.
 
▪️Do not under-estimate people's… pic.twitter.com/nFq6RQEeZm

— Amer Mirza (@amerxmirza) October 8, 2023

It’s a point of contention for Gazans in their protests against Hamas as recently as a few months ago so yes it freaking matters, 3000 greenhouses matters when there is a food security issue you idiot.

― Van Horn Street, Monday, 9 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Looks at this settler, wanting to eat three meals a day on the graves of Palestinians and their children

Great, the blood libel + erasure of jewish indigeneity to Israel. Keep coming with the antisemitic hits, the British left has been really good at it recently.

Will think of you next time I’m on a beach in Haifa.

Lol, beach in Haifa? This is pure in your mum's basement posting.

Keep pretending you are against Netanyahu and the IDF, you haven't said a thing about murdered Palestinian civilians or journalists. You people only care about keeping your colonies safe from what is under the ground and calling anyone who disagrees an antisemite.

"I know it normally makes sense to assume incompetence, but a state that spends as much of its budget on military and intelligence as Israel does, and takes it as seriously as Israel does"

Big assumptions here. Intelligence is one of the biggest cons going and it's all about government contracts. As events this weekend have shown there is not as much security as you think.

From reports in the Arab press, it’s not clear that the majority of Hamas’ leadership knew about it until after it had happened, let alone the Israeli or Iranian governments.

Nah, I just criticised and villified Hamas actions and been clear that I do not believe it will help palestinians and make things worse even and have many times expressed the desire for a sovereign occupation free and blockade free Palestine, while you have said nothing about Israeli deaths, even retweeting someone ‘celebrating resistance’ which so far as been less resistance and more a horrible massacre of innocent civilians and insinuating jews love dead children (a classic!) or are not indigenous to the land they belong to (another one!).

Big assumptions here.

For sure! I am making assumptions but holding them very loosely, I don't have enough of a handle to state these assumptions with any level of conviction whatsoever, I just don't really understand why there wasn't much defence in that location, or if its normal to have that little defence, or to what level personnel was moved. Or if intelligence/military was this unprepared why this hasn't happened more often previously

Any recommendations for people to read/watch on the mechanics of this would be good

I know getting to the FP count is very hard these days but we did it before and friends, I believe we can do it again.

From reports in the Arab press, it’s not clear that the majority of Hamas’ leadership knew about it until after it had happened,

It feels a fairly sizeable operation to pull off without leadership knowing? Unless there's new leadership or power struggle? I guess still pretty early to tell much though

VHS: That person I cited is a left-wing Jew who I think has more skin in the game than you and most of us. It didn't take you long to play the antisemite card either.

"been clear that I do not believe it will help palestinians and make things worse"

This is concern trolling from people who aren't locked in a concentration camp.

they'd shifted a lot of resources from around gaza to the west bank this year in order to take a more aggressive approach with the settlements. my understanding is that's to do with the keeping the far right parties (who joined the government after the most recent election) happy

ufo, thanks, thats sort of what I had assumed, something to do with the new far right partners in the coalition - but does Israel really not have enough forces to do both? But "lets bulldoze the West Bank settlements and wing it on Gaza" does feel somewhat less conspiratorial than "lets create pretext for 'something' in Gaza" when they could presumably just do that anyway

ShariVari, who is a good resource or goto on this?

You know exactly what you are doing by repeating the term concentration camp in this context and to a jewish person.

At this points its between you and your terminaly online conscience.

"You know exactly what you are doing by repeating the term concentration camp in this context and to a jewish person."

What do you think this is then? Please educate my "online conscience".

ufo, thanks, thats sort of what I had assumed, something to do with the new far right partners in the coalition - but does Israel really not have enough forces to do both? But "lets bulldoze the West Bank settlements and wing it on Gaza" does feel somewhat less conspiratorial than "lets create pretext for 'something' in Gaza" when they could presumably just do that anyway

ShariVari, who is a good resource or goto on this?

― anvil, Monday, October 9, 2023 4:55 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A country with a hundred time the security apparatus of Israel allowed something like 9/11 to happen. Sometimes it slips.

well, clearly israel did not have enough forces to increase aggression in the west bank while maintaining the same level around gaza. i'm not very convinced this is some any sort of deliberate move because it has been disastrous for netanyahu and would be at best an absurdly risky gamble

What do you think this is then? Please educate my "online conscience".

― xyzzzz__, Monday, October 9, 2023 5:03 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It’s a blockade, and the interior affairs of Gaza are
run by Hamas who explicitely want to destroy the entire State of Israel, does not recognize a path to peace and uses Gaza has a launching pad to fire rockets at their enemy (including civilians) in the hopes of showing who is boss. Not only is this escalation stupid and useless to every day gazans, they haven’t gained anything substantial since the evacuation. Worse, it gives justification for Israeli far right shit heads to do what they love to do: keep a status quo with the blockade with the notion security to slowly eat away at territory and human rights and use the occasional bombing to keep the army well stretched. With stupid Hamas doing what they do, far right Israeli can say ‘see? we shouldn’t leave the WB, because this is what will happen’.

Gazans do protest against the islamo-fascist rule of Hamas, and they know very well they are being played into the hands of Nethanyahu for nothing more than a show of force. If they can get out with Israeli work permits they will (those have handed more last year than ever iirc). It’s a horrible situation, with plenty of blame to go around and obviously too much misery but to make analogous to concentration camp is just lazy and meant to hurt.

(One way out of this mess is if in the peace process an actor can guarantee security to the new state of Palestine, only Saudi Arabia has the power to do so, as
it is also an important ally to the US and Israel wouldn’t be able to cross out. It would also have the authority and power over other islamic nations to help swallow the pill of recognising a Jewish state. Saudi Arabia is warming up to the idea, and will obviously be very keen on the end of occupation in WB and blockade in Gaza. Plus it wants to trade with Israel. Hamas (with the green light of Iran) hate the idea so they launch this dumb attack which will result in nothing but further loss of life on both sides of the fence. It’s not resistance, it’s proxy war shit, it’s killing civilians and it’s escalating and perpetuating the conflict that has been a catastrophe first and foremost for Palestinian civilians.)

Forgot to mention also SA likely wants green light nuclear capability from US in exchange of recognising Israel.

Also, anvil, the security apparatus of Israel really dislikes this far right government and a conspiration theory that will probably be popular within their electoral base was the security agrncies let it slip up for Nethanyahu to look bad.

"It’s a blockade, and the interior affairs of Gaza are
run by Hamas who explicitely want to destroy the entire State of Israel, does not recognize a path to peace and uses Gaza has a launching pad to fire rockets at their enemy (including civilians) in the hopes of showing who is boss. Not only is this escalation stupid and useless to every day gazans, they haven’t gained anything substantial since the evacuation."

You have a lot that you refuse to learn. Palestinians have had their land dispossessed. You know a blockade is simply a polite term for a concentration camp. People are trapped in militarised zone. They have no water and electricity. This is a concebtration camp.

And you go on about Hamas but the PLO have been called terrorists in the past while Israel themselves (as detailed in the piece Plax posted on Saturday) used Hamas in the past for their own benefit. Anyone who supports Palestinian rights have been called antisemites, and you use this here. You choose to talk over left-wing Jews that I have cited -- while implying without stating you are Jewish too. What is this behaviour? Aren't you ashamed?

It is not a militarized zone, there is no IDF presence in Gaza, do you even know the simple facts?

Yes, Hamas is playing into the hands of Nethanyahu, and the right wing government, and the IDF, i have described this symbiosis in my post. If you acknowledge this, then you acknowledge that Hamas isn’t really doing anything in the best interest of Gazans, in which case don’t you think the hurrahs for Hamas should be a little tonned down? If you can’t for mass murder of civilians maybe you could do for this?

And no i’m not talking over a jewish person as I’m part of that tribe.

Do you know people have been displaced from their land? There is a lack of electricity and drinkable water in Gaza, no employment or rights that you and I take for granted. You go on about their Greenhouses as if they should just live in Gaza for the rest of their lives. Who do you think you are fooling?

"And no i’m not talking over a jewish person as I’m part of that tribe."

This is plain weird. People would surely say they are either Jewish or not. Are you Jewish?

Do you know jews have been displaced from their lands too? This is the story of two indigenous people wanting to exercice their right to self determination. Anyone who thinks the other shouldn’t be allowed is a bigot.

I’m using the greenhouse exemple to illustrate how Hamas is using the economy of Gaza to their ends which is not beneficial to Gazans but only to their proxy war. I maintain that it could have been a boon to their economy, food security and unemployment issues. I don’t really see how destruction of the only option for farming in such a small place is not a big issue. Gazans have said as such for a long time now. I just happen to think Gazans deserve better than Hamas and the Israeli blockade.

You keep conflating Gaza and Hamas as if it were the exact same one monolithic entity and at this point I’m wondering if you have a grasp of what Hamas is, what Gaza is, beyong sloganeering and retweets.