Post a controversial music opinion

Most of Stevie Wonder’s music doesn’t do a lot for me.

Co-sign. The funk jams are great but there are far too many gooey ballads. Innervisions is the only album I can get close to listening to all the way through.

ii: they were *clever*. “That would never do among the mostly university-educated music writers of the time […] who felt somewhat threatened, and quietly preferred their subjects to come from broken homes and council estates - that dues paying thing again.”

― mark s, Wednesday, 16 August 2023 21:43

Only recently heard about things like this: prog/jazz guy Andy Edwards saying rock critics of the time felt really out of their depth if musicians had lots of jazz/classical/world influences and a good education to draw on. That those critics ideally wanted to explain the genius of the more primitive musician to the readers.

I listen to "Higher Ground" sometimes just for his drumming.

counterpoint: "Another One Bites The Dust"

― out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve)

Counter-counterpoint: the most basic of drummers can play and could’ve composer those drums. I don’t hear anything remotely interesting in the drums there.

Honestly what am I missing? It’s the most basic rock drum pattern ever in that song.

If I were to pick a counterpoint I’d go with idk “I’m in love with my car” which is still deceptively simple but not something an amateur drummer can pull as fast.

you're not missing anything. It's a beat I could describe as "default"

to my mind the appeal of roger was, in descending importance:

1 - can sing
2 - can write
3 - is hot
4 - plays drums pretty good

although I would like to add that, anecdotally, I have met very few drummers capable of playing "another one bites the dust" without throwing in a cymbal crash on every four and a "cool tomtom fill" every couple bars

I could never get into "In Love with my Car." Can't get past the lyrics. When Freddie is singing something dopey I can accept it but not Roger.

I listen to "Higher Ground" sometimes just for his drumming.

― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, August 19, 2023 9:35 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

^^^ this.

And one would think the consensus on the ham-fisted RHCP version is that it's laughable, but for some reason, it has its defenders.

the ballads are the highlights of those stevie albums - there is way too much anti-ballad sentiment in online music fandom in general, which I might attribute to "toxic masculinity" if I was in the mood to argue that kind of thing

if anything there are too many clavinet funk workouts on those things, they tend to resemble each other after a while

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSMUyUft2Zk

You can never have too may clavinet funk workouts.

maybe not I was just being contrarian but my god that song is gorgeous

Here's my controversial opinion: you can have too many clavinet funk workouts, because "Trampled Underfoot" is one too many. Just plodding and, um, leaden. A missed opportunity from a band and a drummer you'd think would do a decent job with that approach.

Billy Preston's final recording is a clavinet funk workout on a red hot chili peppers record, which is several too many but that's not Billy's fault, or maybe it is

anyways I also don't like a lot of Stevie Wonder songs but I still think he is probably the greatest living singer/songwriter/musician

he just wrote a lot of songs, y'know, I think you kind of just have to write too many songs, because then when you look at the best ones it's like 30 songs instead of 2 songs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3KpUO6t9qQ

This gooey Stevie ballad always gets a lot of flak, but I've loved it from the moment I heard it.

1972 stevie: why are people so evil ;_;
1976 stevie: fuck y'all i'm going to saturn

the thing about stevie's ballads is that he never repeats the same trick twice (during his 70s run at least). "i believe" is not "evil" is not "heaven is a zillion light years away" is not "visions." they all vary in length, tempo, and, um, gooeyness.

the one ballad that i always skip is "they won't go when i go," way too ponderous and not enough else going on in the song that i can ignore the religious stuff

there is way too much anti-ballad sentiment in online music fandom in general, which I might attribute to "toxic masculinity" if I was in the mood to argue that kind of thing

huge truth bomb, huge

I'm not sure how much of ILX shares my personal-taste view on ballads, but my own personal issue with most of them is the way they often lack any contribution from a rhythm section, which, when amplified by the languid tempo, results in the song getting too boring. And far too often, a rhythmless ballad derails an album's momentum.

However, when a ballad has those percussive/rhythmic elements (syncopation, variety in instrumental textures and frequencies), and chord/melodic progressions that drift towards dreamy/shoegaze/New Age idioms, now we're talking.

Maybe this is why I'll offer more positivity for, say, Little Dragon's "Feather" then Paul McCartney's "My Love".

ballads aren’t really meant for jacking the groove tbh

well, yknow

I'm not sure how much of ILX shares my personal-taste view on ballads, but my own personal issue with most of them is the way they often lack any contribution from a rhythm section, which, when amplified by the languid tempo, results in the song getting too boring. And far too often, a rhythmless ballad derails an album's momentum.

However, when a ballad has those percussive/rhythmic elements (syncopation, variety in instrumental textures and frequencies), and chord/melodic progressions that drift towards dreamy/shoegaze/New Age idioms, now we're talking.

hence why Stevie Wonder ballads rule.

voodoo chili otm

i think there are definitely a lot of absolutely abominable ballads, ones trying to get by exclusively on gooey sentiment but possess zero power or momentum.

i think one defense of a lot of power ballads from hard rock acts in the late '80s is they really did bring a lot of cinematic sweep to that style. "Love Bites", "The Flame", "Is This Love", etc. it's the same for a lot of quiet storm type tracks, or really powerful R&B/soul ballads. "I Don't Want to Cry" by Mariah, i like that one a ton, lots of really nice flourishes in the production. i don't mind syrupy Stevie either, "You Are the Sunshine of My Life" is great. "I Just Called..." much less so, it's a stiffer track for sure.

ballads, as with any style of song, suck if there is no imagination put into them, and like any non-ballad pop song, can be boring if they are rote and by numbers. they can be great if care and songcraft are put into it.

for example, I love most of Stevie's from the 70s (especially "Knocks Me Off My Feet"), but find most of Michael Jackson's to be some of his weaker material. although if you consider "Human Nature" a ballad, that one is an all-timer. but not sure if that qualifies.

"love of a lifetime" by Firehouse, "Every Rose Has Its Thorn", "High Enough" -- those are imo solid examples of absolutely terrible power ballads.

I note that one of the Stevie side-eyes came to us from the only person I have ever met who loathes Bill Evans, for reasons that seem mostly to do with “his music is too emotional.” But I digress.

I despite "classic era" Stevie Wonder. "Key Of Life" is notable for me as having, pound-for-pound, a greater number of contenders for the "worst song ever recorded" than any other album I have listened to. "Isn't She Lovely" plays on loop in my most hideous nightmares

What you hear as gooey, I hear as such a perfect union of triteness and sanctimony that there are nuclear results.

i admit i can't really hang w/that one either.

*despise, not despite

Think u both need to have a talk with God

hence why Stevie Wonder ballads rule.

voodoo chili otm

― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, August 21, 2023 11:00 AM (twenty-three minutes ago)

Does "Living for the City" count as a ballad? I used to think so since it shares a tempo with many songs that are considered ballads, but maybe it hits too hard early in the song (rather than builds like "Summer Soft"). I guess I'm a bad authority in what qualifies and what does not

gonna say no for "living for the city," "golden lady," and "he's misstra know-it-all," yes for "visions" and "all in love is fair"

lol Neanderthal otm, although I am enjoying the hot takes here

Songs in the Key of Life is the least of the classic Stevie albums, it's true, and I don't listen to "Isn't She Lovely" of my own volition; but I wanna hear goon dis Stevie Wonder some more.

"Visions" sounds like it's beaming in from a distant corner of the universe -- one of Neptune's moons or something.

for reasons that seem mostly to do with “his music is too emotional.”

Since I didn't say what I don't like about Evans, I don't know where you got this from. But now that the subject's come up...Bill Evans is fucking boring. He played dinnertime music — and when he didn't, 'cause I've heard tracks where he and his trio would try and rev up and even go "out," he was completely at sea. I'm aware that artists I admire liked him, but plenty of brilliant musicians have terrible taste. I'll listen to a dozen Ahmad Jamal albums before one by Bill Evans.

I love Overjoyed as well idk if that makes me a poser

No way. More songs need dripping water percussive effects.

Thanks voodoo for the classification assistance! I know this does not qualify for the "post a controversial music opinion" thread, but Stevie's musical output from 1970-1976 was prolific to the point of ridiculosity. Oh, there's the 5 albums from 1965-69, too. I still place 1985's "Go Home" as my fave song, though (OK, I guess that's kinda controversial)

Not to mention the material he wrote and produced for others.

Speaking of Motown, is it controversial to kind of agree with Dylan’s assertion that Smokey Robinson is “America’s greatest poet”

One day Alfo I’ll do a live typed commentary on those four albums, but for me, “having a talk with God” means revisiting Wonder’s 60s recordings, which I love

He played dinnertime music

This reminds me of the time I had a Wayne Shorter CD playing in the car when I drove my family to the airport and my suburban zoomer niece referred to it as "Weather channel music." But then, she isn't a jazz critic

"suburban zoomer niece" is a good band name

who's zoomin who