350 guys thinkin baout things
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 17 August 2023 03:01 (nine months ago) link
straight dudes talkin about straight dudes
it's not a very diverse sample, but at least a few ideas might have emerged that ever-so-slightly nudge the process of defining straight dude masculinity in a better direction, even if only accidentally. you can't create a better society by just trying to erase straight dudes from the face of the earth.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 17 August 2023 03:34 (nine months ago) link
we won’t know unless we try
― the late great, Thursday, 17 August 2023 03:39 (nine months ago) link
i knew that i'd get at least one answer like that before I ever hit submit. ilx is very predictable along those lines.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 17 August 2023 03:54 (nine months ago) link
and yet the answer came after you hit submit, how does that work?!?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 August 2023 03:56 (nine months ago) link
predictability is good, it’s why we come back to places we like, right?
i was just coming back to make a dumb crack about those goofy pre-internet “eracism” stickers you’d see but i suppose i’ve done enough damage to the discourse for one day
― the late great, Thursday, 17 August 2023 03:59 (nine months ago) link
inspired by this thread i was listening to a lot of AC/DC and i think these fellows don't get enough credit for their enlightened attitudes towards masculinity and women. just have a look at T.N.T. from their first album
Women to the left of meAnd women to the rightAin't got no gunAin't got no knifeDon't you start no fight
Ain't got no gunAin't got no knifeDon't you start no fight
surrounded by women, the singer is advocating an end to violence. but what about their famously cro-magnon sex jams? look closer. in 'rock and roll ain't noise pollution', from back in black, we hear these lascivious lines:
I took a look inside your bedroom doorYou looked so good lyin' on your bed
but guess what? this gentleman asks for enthusiastic consent, and seems content - even kind of awed - to be told she isn't interested in sex, or at least not the type he's asking about:
Well, I asked you if you wanted any rhythm and loveYou said you wanna rock and roll, instead
now, i won't even get into bon scott's famous cross-dressing but i think it suffices to say these fellas were a little more ahead of the game than we suppose
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 17 August 2023 07:32 (nine months ago) link
shirt for bonnet, which many people aren't aware of
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Thursday, 17 August 2023 08:12 (nine months ago) link
short
ffs
Re "Rock and Roll Ain't Noise Pollution", that is credited to Young/Young/Johnson but there's a lot of people who think the band carried on using unpublished (and uncredited) Bon Scott lyrics for years after his death.
― Monthly Python (Tom D.), Thursday, 17 August 2023 08:41 (nine months ago) link
AC/DC were all about consent from the very start.
― Vernon Locke, Thursday, 17 August 2023 11:38 (nine months ago) link
_straight dudes talkin about straight dudes_it's not a very diverse sample, but at least a few ideas might have emerged that ever-so-slightly nudge the process of defining straight dude masculinity in a better direction, even if only accidentally. you can't create a better society by just trying to erase straight dudes from the face of the earth.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 17 August 2023 11:38 (nine months ago) link
George Clooney: a man who exhibits the “traditional” aspects of masculinity but does so with a modern interpretation. He embraces all of the things men are conditioned to enjoy: sports, motorcycles, cars, a night out with “the boys,” attention to fitness/appearance, a passion for his career and an appreciation for beautiful women.
ew
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 11:48 (nine months ago) link
Real men slay dragons. They also dance, express their emotions, cultivate friendships and write poetry. — Sean Nolan, Albany, N.Y., 37
Men sure love a bit of poetry.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:15 (nine months ago) link
"I’d say Captains Jean-Luc Picard, Jonathan Archer, Benjamin Sisko, Christopher Pike and, yes, even James Tiberius Kirk."
Aimless: there is an idea here.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:17 (nine months ago) link
"He served his nation in the U.S. Army beginning at the age of 17 for 21 years, and when he was called to serve in Vietnam near the end of his career, he went willingly, because that was his duty. While there, he was awarded the Bronze Star for physically carrying an injured soldier from an ordnance-littered field, thinking of that soldier before himself. He provided not only for his family but also others as he could afford. He wasn’t an easy man to know, but he embraced the core values that made him the man he was and that his three sons embraced."
Daddy loves imperialism!
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:19 (nine months ago) link
"There once was a man from Nantucket...' (xps)
― Monthly Python (Tom D.), Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:20 (nine months ago) link
"Men should listen attentively, keep an open mind, use their strength for the betterment of all, use words instead of fists, not play with guns, and never, never, never strike a woman. Men are at their best when protecting and defending women. — Bennett Werner, 71, Cape May, N.J."
Men should know how to use their fists and make sure they know how to handle firearms safely before they use it.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:22 (nine months ago) link
I feel like that whole column is an exercise in “never read the comments.”
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:24 (nine months ago) link
Frankly it makes most men look as toxic and shitty as some of us have been making them out to be.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:29 (nine months ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUQzQYv8J90
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:31 (nine months ago) link
Didn't read it all but this was the only good comment:
"The very question of what constitutes ideal masculinity is, at best, a fool’s errand and, at worst, dangerous. It also might lie at the heart of why we are losing young men to cults of toxic masculinity. The minute you define this false ideal, you are falsely defining those who don’t meet the ideal. — Craig Culp, 63, Gaithersburg, Md."
And the end of this one:
"I look at myself, shrug at myself and walk away from the mirror, thinking, What does it matter anyway? We live alone, we die alone. Maybe that’s as masculine as it gets."
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:36 (nine months ago) link
nihilism famously has no bearing on any of the online toxic masculinity we're witnessing
― imago, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:43 (nine months ago) link
That's an acceptance of realities that person is facing.
Beats listening to Blur or voting Labour, imago.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 12:51 (nine months ago) link
Some of the guys in that wapo piece going to a Subway.
This is a masterpiece. No notes pic.twitter.com/IhSEtPsixQ— Swolecialist (@BlackLanterrn) August 17, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:16 (nine months ago) link
WaPo thing was very weird and kind of alarming. So many of the comments rest on the idea that men are stronger—and not even necessarily physically, more like a nebulous but inherent strength of mind and spirit—than everyone around them (not excluding other men afaict), so the good model is for individual men to protect others not dominate them. But an immutable natural hierarchy with the individual adult man on top is still assumed. The columnist's intro to the sole comment that brings up being gay is esp weird
― rob, Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:27 (nine months ago) link
i would argue that this is one of the inevitable consequences of seeking to define (positive) masculinity
― you're a sick man, Buddy Rich (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:31 (nine months ago) link
yes, that's a good point. pressed to define masculinity as an "ideal" it's likely difficult not to reach for things that make being a man supposedly better than not being a man. so yeah, the first guy xyzzzz quoted above is otm
― rob, Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:38 (nine months ago) link
yup!
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:50 (nine months ago) link
We live alone, we die alone. Maybe that’s as masculine as it gets.
The real masculinity is the friends we didn't make along the way
― jmm, Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:54 (nine months ago) link
tbf to the article it includes these quotes:
I don’t think I have an “ideal of masculinity” precisely because I reject the term. When I hear the term “masculine,” I shudder because the likes of Josh Hawley and the incel movement have taken over the term. I see “men” driving enormous trucks — clean and sparkling because they’ve never been used for actual work — and I think, “He’s compensating for something.” — Peter Hornbein, 70, Boulder, Colo.
The very question of what constitutes ideal masculinity is, at best, a fool’s errand and, at worst, dangerous. It also might lie at the heart of why we are losing young men to cults of toxic masculinity. The minute you define this false ideal, you are falsely defining those who don’t meet the ideal. — Craig Culp, 63, Gaithersburg, Md.
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:55 (nine months ago) link
Those two quotes surrounded by toxicity does not mean we have to be fair to it.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 17 August 2023 13:58 (nine months ago) link
Fair.
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:01 (nine months ago) link
I feel like avoiding the question of what masculinity is or should be is just not possible, not once the old answers to that question have been unsettled - something has to fill the space created, if it's not discussed that just means the answer is something implicit, or defined negatively by what is rejected?
― soref, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:01 (nine months ago) link
It's like the "define British?" 'debate' you get here, it's a trap.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:04 (nine months ago) link
xpthe Culp quote is the one I said was otm. I think the other one ends up kind of problematic though -- as much as I also lazily mock male strangers for what their vehicular choices say about their insecurities -- why do men have to do "actual work" and how is that different from non-actual? idk maybe that guy is aware of all that, but, well, we're back to "this article sucks"
soref: I think we could instead discuss rejecting gender binaries? I'm maybe not sure what you're saying
― rob, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:05 (nine months ago) link
no true Scotsman
― soref,
The only response, I think, is to ask, "Who cares? Teach your kids to respect others, to show compassion, to realize they aren't the only people on earth."
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:06 (nine months ago) link
I mean this guy can reject the term all he likes, but he's still a man, that still defines all kinds of stuff about how he exists in the world and is treated by people and institutions etc, rejecting the term just seems like sticking your head in the sand
― soref, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:06 (nine months ago) link
why is he "still a man"?
― rob, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:08 (nine months ago) link
Contrary to the existence of this whole thread (including anything I’ve said in it), the actual answer is “just be a good person and try to not worry too much about ‘being a man.’”
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:09 (nine months ago) link
Because clearly when men think about “being a man,” it goes to bad places.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:10 (nine months ago) link
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 15:06 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
these things aren't gender neutral though, if you're raising a male kid then stuff like what it means for them to be compassionate and respectful of others will mean wrestling with their position in the world as male (as well as their class and race and various other things).
― soref, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:11 (nine months ago) link
That comment Alfred pulled out re: men driving enormous trucks. I mean, plenty of women drive these big cars taking the children to school or some after school 'activity' as well. Are they saying they have a family to protect?
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:11 (nine months ago) link
yes this feels like it's going to be a rerun of the national identity debate. rejecting a model of identity does not imply being blind to one's position within power structures.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:12 (nine months ago) link
In my hood every member of a family household -- men and women -- drives at least one goddamn F-150 and their ilk.
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:14 (nine months ago) link
Sure. I don't mind negative definitions. As the boy grows older, he's going to see and even befriend examples of more typical masculinity; it'll be up to his parents to say, "Here's how I would like YOU to be."
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:15 (nine months ago) link
if you're raising a male kid then stuff like what it means for them to be compassionate and respectful of others will mean wrestling with their position in the world as male
how do you know you're raising a male kid? like at what age are you *sure*
― rob, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:16 (nine months ago) link
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 17 August 2023 15:12 (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
if rejecting a model of identity does not imply being blind to one's position within power structures, then what does rejecting a model of identity mean? What is it other than an empty rhetorical gesture? Most of the 'positive' definitions of masculinity could be described as 'being aware of your place in the power structure', and using that position in the most positive way you can - I can't see what the big difference is between 'positively defining masculinity' (bad) and 'being aware of your position in the power structure' (good), aside from semantics?
― soref, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:23 (nine months ago) link
*Most of the 'positive' definitions of masculinity* IN THAT ARTICLE is what I meant to type
― soref, Thursday, 17 August 2023 14:24 (nine months ago) link