Seems like people use politics as an excuse
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 20:37 (ten months ago) link
I just think people should be nice and not callous assholes
― treeship.
treesh i love you but if i had a sig file this would be in it. it's... seriously, "people should be nice" is not an adequate response to the shit the right is doing right now. we need a little more than "people should be nice" right now.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 23 June 2023 20:38 (ten months ago) link
treeship bawled throughout the opening of Magnolia
― New No-No Bettencourt (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 23 June 2023 20:39 (ten months ago) link
I just don’t think laughing at people suffocating to death is meaningfully confronting “the right.” just bc they are rich—doesn’t really seem like it follows
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 20:39 (ten months ago) link
People have always mocked hubris. I don't think it's cruel, I think it's the way the human mind works.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 23 June 2023 20:41 (ten months ago) link
treesh i know you mean well but judging people who belong to marginalized groups celebrating the deaths of the people trying to kill them as "not being nice" and "using politics as an excuse" is... i think it might benefit you to try and let go of a little of that judgement. i mean yeah people are assholes a lot of the time and do things i don't agree with a lot of the time but their lives aren't mine, they're going through shit i'm not, so i feel like it's best to cut them some slack and, above all, not draw equivalencies between their being "not nice" and the fascists who are trying to kill them. i mean yes. i guess genocide is not a very nice thing to do.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 23 June 2023 20:42 (ten months ago) link
frogbs i think we're on the same page here but i think we gotta clarify but what you mean by "these people".
I'm referring more to the "Herman Cain award" thing on Reddit itself, which is usually a series of 15+ Facebook posts calling Fauci a Nazi, making fun of people who wear masks, accusing the CDC of making shit up, whining that they can't buy horse dewormer anymore, followed later by "please pray for me I'm in the hospital" and then later a GoFundMe for medical costs which is only necessary because the people they gleefully vote for have made it that way. and then the last one confirming they're dead. I mean treeship is right, making fun of these folks won't make them do the right thing, but on the other hand neither will anything else
― frogbs, Friday, 23 June 2023 20:44 (ten months ago) link
I used to subscribe to "sorryantivaxxer.com." The thing is, the deaths of most of those people are entirely too predictable, and moreover I just felt bad for them because the vast majority of them are irredeemably stupid.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 23 June 2023 20:47 (ten months ago) link
I saw someone on twitter compare it to the segway owner dying after accidently driving his segway over a cliff, which feels like an apt comparison, it's an inherently comic situation
― he thinks it's chinese money (soref), Friday, June 23, 2023 3:31 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
yea I think that's kind of it. I mean people made fun of the Crocodile Hunter when he died and everyone fucking loved that guy.
― frogbs, Friday, 23 June 2023 20:53 (ten months ago) link
I sense a different kind of thrill people are taking in this but maybe i am wrong
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 20:54 (ten months ago) link
― frogbs
i mean more importantly it's _not our responsibility to fix them_, you know? that's the thing about liberalism is this idea that Everybody Is Our Responsibility and that idea is noble and doesn't fucking work in practice. when someone earns the Herman Cain Award that's not _justice_, that's not "chickens coming home to roost" or whatever, but somebody who promotes ignorance and hatred suffering from the consequences of that ignorance and hatred _themselves_... i can see why someone would want to celebrate that!
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 23 June 2023 20:58 (ten months ago) link
And i understand people at times use gallows humor to cope in a world that is hostile to them, a kind of protective measure. I am not disparaging that. But here, couldn’t there also be a little of what man alive noticed — a kind of grim enjoyment of the spectacle, like a gladiator battle? And is this instinct progressive, fundamentally?
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 20:58 (ten months ago) link
The closest experience to that I can remember is the rejoicing that happened after the announcement of the death of Osama bin Laden.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:01 (ten months ago) link
fuck, i don't know, treesh, i'm just trying to stay alive in a world where a lot of institutions of power, and the people who control those institutions of power, are actively trying to exterminate me and people like me, you know? discoursing about what is or isn't "progressive" like i have any real say in the matter isn't a priority for me. like i don't need a grand unified theory to account for people being uncivil, you know?
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:03 (ten months ago) link
If clowning on bad billionaire vehicle designs leads to industry regulation, maybe it is part of a progressive tapestry.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 23 June 2023 21:06 (ten months ago) link
Inshallah
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 21:12 (ten months ago) link
treeship. at 9:58 23 Jun 23And i understand people at times use gallows humor to cope in a world that is hostile to them, a kind of protective measure. I am not disparaging that. But here, couldn’t there also be a little of what man alive noticed — a kind of grim enjoyment of the spectacle, like a gladiator battle? And is this instinct progressive, fundamentally?
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:15 (ten months ago) link
does ilx still do the annual death pool? I remember in one of Alan Bennett's LRB diaries he wrote about he met someone who told him they had him in their death pool, and although this guy didn't seem to bear him any malice Bennett still felt depressed imagining the man being pleased when he hears about his death, that kind of put me off them, they just made me think of a crestfallen Alan Bennett. I know some participants would only pick bad people whose deaths they would welcome, but that almost seems worse than approaching it in an amoral spirit
― he thinks it's chinese money (soref), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:19 (ten months ago) link
my wife (who for context is not a westerner) often laughs at me for being moralistic (in a progressive way) - she thinks it's down to my Catholic education,
Perhaps this is my hangup. I grew up in a deeply Catholic household but one that was not *at all* conservative. My mom works with migrants helping them prepare their asylum applications. I am not a churchgoer today but growing up my experience of Christianity was, I think, just super different from that of most Americans.
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 21:24 (ten months ago) link
xxp it would have been kind of funny if they still had internet access on the sub and were all sitting there sadly scrolling through the mean tweets as the oxygen ran out
― he thinks it's chinese money (soref), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:25 (ten months ago) link
xp the death pool is fucked and ilx is fucked
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 21:25 (ten months ago) link
I "won" the death pool a couple of year ago and felt bad about it, won't play again. think nobody started the thread this year, and no great loss afaic
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:25 (ten months ago) link
hi-fives on growing up in a culturally Catholic politically progressive household treesh, I always thank it for making me a "good person" but have to admit it also fucked me up in a load of ways I'm only just becoming aware of.
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:29 (ten months ago) link
I was raised Catholic as well, I don't know if that's where this squeamishness come from - the idea that you can judge particular acts as wrong, but to judge a person in total as good or bad is presumptuous and something only God can do? If there's no God then there's no higher authority than us, so it makes no sense to say you're not qualified to judge someone
― he thinks it's chinese money (soref), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:37 (ten months ago) link
You don’t judge, just say things like “bless his heart,” or “the Lord loves us all.”
― Johnny Bit Rot (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:45 (ten months ago) link
While saying something negative, to sugar the pill, to deflect from the negativity.
― Johnny Bit Rot (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:46 (ten months ago) link
no see that's the conservative way, progressive catholics are not allowed to have any bad feelings about anyone, let alone express them
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:53 (ten months ago) link
― he thinks it's chinese money (soref)
i think judgement should come from knowledge and experience. for instance i don't really have the knowledge or experience to say whether a submersible design is fundamentally safe or not, so i wouldn't make that judgement!
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 23 June 2023 21:54 (ten months ago) link
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, June 23, 2023 5:53 PM (thirty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Yes! Love the sinner, hate the sin… but mostly love the sinner. This is how I was raised. I still think this is a good perspective.
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 22:33 (ten months ago) link
Love loves to love love — james joyce. A fellow heretic raised in the jesuit tradition
I understand this makes people cringe uncontrollably.
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 22:38 (ten months ago) link
just imagine ned flanders but into feminism instead of the bible
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 June 2023 22:46 (ten months ago) link
Ok. No
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 22:48 (ten months ago) link
I do love everyone but I prefer lofi house music and confessional poetry
I do think that pushing all negative thoughts down is probably not a good long term strategy for life, and it's also conditioned me to avoid conflict even if that means fucking things up. so I'm not going to celebrate it.
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 June 2023 22:54 (ten months ago) link
Hm
― treeship., Friday, 23 June 2023 23:03 (ten months ago) link
you don't push them down, you reify them as confessional poetry, duh
― imago, Saturday, 24 June 2023 07:05 (ten months ago) link
I think it would be somewhat different if, like, the guy used slave labor to build the components for the sub and the laborers killed him in an uprising, or even like deliberately sabotaged the sub so he would die. I'm definitely not saying "they go low we go high," I just don't see any actual political content here. This seems like just enjoying the absurd death of someone we don't like (but let's be honest had never heard of a few weeks ago) for that internet dopamine hit of the moment. Not saying any of you are terrible people if you did that, it just makes me uneasy to indulge in, like maybe I'd just rather not train by brain to seek pleasure from that kind of thing. That's all.
I rejoiced when Scalia died because I thought it meant we'd get a liberal justice on the court (obviously it didn't but that's another matter). I was happy because he had effectively oppressed people and it meant a chance for people to be less oppressed. I don't think there's anything wrong with that type of "enjoyment of death."
And I'll admit it, the segway creator segwaying into death by literally segwaying off a cliff was funny.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 24 June 2023 14:02 (ten months ago) link
I don't think the LOLs came from people wanting to be 'political', but laughing at the absurdism of the situation and the hubris of the founder/most of the passengers.
the only reason people keep pointing out "hey, seriously, fuck this guy!" is in response to the "guys, we should be better than this" self-serving piety that emerged all over the web a few days ago.
I mean, I do think there is value in pointing out "hey guys, this is the type of person who gets hard-working civilians killed on a daily basis, and usually there's no repercussions for their regulation-defying, cost-cutting measures, but hey, this time - there were!"
― sad Mings of dynasty (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 June 2023 14:22 (ten months ago) link
Anyway.
They were roasting the shit out of the Titanic in the newspaper right after it sank, man. This is not a new development, or a chance to stroke your chin about the dangers of social media. https://t.co/1BjP73SMJZ pic.twitter.com/wpZGmw7Hmk— Cooper Lund (@cooperlund) June 23, 2023
― half the population ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (gyac), Saturday, 24 June 2023 14:23 (ten months ago) link
it's hard for me to avoid a chuckle when the oligarchy ever so briefly eats itself
― sad Mings of dynasty (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 June 2023 14:24 (ten months ago) link
lock thread
― calzino, Saturday, 24 June 2023 14:25 (ten months ago) link
My view is this is bad if the joke is not funny, good if the joke is funny. Also, I get to decide which is which, thanks.
― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Saturday, 24 June 2023 15:20 (ten months ago) link
― sad Mings of dynasty (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 June 2023 14:22 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
think this is otm really
― Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Saturday, 24 June 2023 15:35 (ten months ago) link
Yes! Love the sinner, hate the sin… but mostly love the sinner. This is how I was raised. I still think this is a good perspective.Love loves to love love — james joyce. A fellow heretic raised in the jesuit traditionI understand this makes people cringe uncontrollably.― treeship., Friday, June 23, 2023 3:38 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― treeship., Friday, June 23, 2023 3:38 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
cringe is fine! i'm basically pro-cringe
i came from a similar background as you, honestly. my grandfather was a lawyer who graduated from a jesuit law college. it case kind of a long shadow over our family.
i don't have a problem with jesuit ideals. what i do have a problem with is the way i've seen catholic ideals play out in practice. frankly seeing people do moral philosophy while looking the other way at child abuse has made me very skeptical of principled people their principles.
it's something i've struggled with for a long time. i've had a long, i don't know, i guess you might call it a "spiritual journey" if you were so inclined.
and where i wound up, is in 2016, i was an episcopalian, and a lot of my approach to, i don't know, ethics, morality, whatever, is shaped by that experience and seeing how that played out in practice. their philosophy, their approach towards things, was very similar to what you are espousing here. i liked them, really. they were kind, compassionate, their intentions were good.
in practice, though... i mean, when you want to love everybody, you wind up making a lot of compromises. so one of the clergy at the church was a lesbian, and she wasn't exactly _closeted_, but she was very careful about the circumstances in which she talked about that. because, you know, some people at the church weren't really cool with the homosexuals, and you don't want to cause friction, you don't want to cause controversy. i mean most of the people there were older people, younger people tend not to... find a home in organized religion.
and that's the thing, you can "welcome everybody" but that doesn't mean everybody will show up. and to me, particularly when you're dealing with mainline protestantism which is, you know, clearly dying, i was interested in... i mean i had no scope, i thought _everything_ was within my sphere of interest and influence. so it was a concern for me, why is mainline protestantism dying? these are good people! they have good values! they preach and practice love! why is the face of christianity hatred and bigotry rather than love and kindness?
and ultimately i decided the flaw was that, like. they were trying to build a community that consisted of both queer people and people who wanted queer people dead. even when i was just a "really good ally", to me, that seemed like a problem. i'm a data analyst and to me things like boundaries, scope, are really relevant, but they're also relevant in my personal life. i was raised in a sort of universalist belief system, everything was my responsibility, everything was my _business_, that was the liberalism i learned and embraced, even though i wouldn't have named it as such.
another thing i was taught was that, you know, the community of christians, we are the body of christ. it's no use sitting around waiting for miracles, _we_ are the miracle, _we_ are the love of jesus christ, with _us_, all things are possible.
in retrospect, it's really obvious to me that i was playing god. there are a _hell of a lot of things_ that aren't possible. and one of those things, one of those things is having a community of _everyone_. as humans, we need boundaries. we need to understand what we can do, whose lives we can ultimately transform.
i've touched a lot of lives, like, i don't know how many people there are out there who believe that i literally changed their life. and i understand that in theory but in practice, i'm just out here being me. that's all i can really do, i've worked in ways that are obvious and perhaps less obvious to transform myself, and if other people see that and transform themselves, that brings me joy. yeah, i am being the change i want to see in the world, sure, but at the same time i'm not out to change the world. i've tried taking that on and it fucked me up and it hurt me. science won't change them, looks like i can't change them.
loving other people, i did that in a way that hurt me and didn't help them. and so i had to change how i loved. i don't love everybody equally. i don't feel like i can do that. i don't have infinite love. i'm not god. and even those people i love most, if they do things that are wrong, well, i have to let them do that _and_ let them face the consequences.
and that's what love looks like to me. maybe that's horrifying to you, but i think... in the long run, it's helpful to understand that we all have limits, even our love, it has to have limits or it's not love, it's poison.
― Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 24 June 2023 15:54 (ten months ago) link
Also, in honor of this revive, I have had ChatGPT write an op-ed in the style of William F. Buckley, Jr. on this topic:
The Coarsening of Society: A Harbinger of the End TimesBy William F. Buckley, Jr.In the annals of human history, there have always been moments that reflect the moral decay and decline of a civilization. These moments serve as stark reminders that we are inching closer to the precipice of societal collapse. One such moment, tragically highlighted recently, is the callous and tasteless jesting surrounding the deaths of billionaires in the Titan submarine implosion.We find ourselves living in an era where mockery and derision have become tools of amusement and entertainment. The boundaries of decency and respect have been eroded, making way for a culture that revels in the misfortune of others, particularly those who have achieved great success. It is a sad commentary on our times when the demise of human beings is met with jeering laughter and gleeful celebration.The billionaire victims of the Titan submarine implosion were not just individuals who amassed vast fortunes; they were human beings with families, friends, and aspirations. They were pioneers who, through their ingenuity and hard work, contributed to the betterment of society in various ways. To reduce their deaths to a punchline is a grave disservice to their legacies and an affront to the very principles upon which our civilization was built.The crux of the matter lies not solely in the jokes themselves, but rather in what they signify—a coarsening of our collective moral fiber. We have become desensitized to the suffering of others, finding amusement in their pain, regardless of their station in life. This is indicative of a society teetering on the precipice of its own demise. When empathy and compassion are supplanted by cruelty and indifference, we risk losing our humanity and the values that have sustained us for centuries.Moreover, the jests about the billionaire deaths in the Titan submarine implosion reveal a deeper malaise—the growing resentment and envy towards those who have achieved extraordinary success. Rather than celebrating their accomplishments, we have succumbed to a toxic narrative that vilifies wealth and denigrates success. This divisive rhetoric only serves to exacerbate the fractures within our society, pitting us against each other and sowing the seeds of discontent and discord.It is essential to remember that a society's strength lies in its ability to foster a spirit of aspiration and achievement, not in tearing down those who have succeeded. Mocking the deaths of billionaires, or anyone for that matter, undermines the very fabric of our civilization. It is a testament to our moral bankruptcy and our inability to appreciate the virtues of dignity, empathy, and respect.The jokes about the tragic deaths of billionaires in the Titan submarine implosion should be seen as a wake-up call, a warning sign that we are drifting perilously close to the edge. As conservatives, we must be the custodians of our cultural values and defend the principles that have made our civilization great. We must reject the corrosive forces of cynicism and degradation, replacing them with a renewed commitment to decency, compassion, and intellectual rigor.Let us stand against the coarsening of our society and resist the temptation to revel in the misfortune of others. We must strive for a higher standard, one that upholds the dignity and worth of every human life. For if we fail to do so, we risk consigning ourselves to the depths of our own demise—the end times of a civilization that lost sight of its own humanity.
By William F. Buckley, Jr.
In the annals of human history, there have always been moments that reflect the moral decay and decline of a civilization. These moments serve as stark reminders that we are inching closer to the precipice of societal collapse. One such moment, tragically highlighted recently, is the callous and tasteless jesting surrounding the deaths of billionaires in the Titan submarine implosion.
We find ourselves living in an era where mockery and derision have become tools of amusement and entertainment. The boundaries of decency and respect have been eroded, making way for a culture that revels in the misfortune of others, particularly those who have achieved great success. It is a sad commentary on our times when the demise of human beings is met with jeering laughter and gleeful celebration.
The billionaire victims of the Titan submarine implosion were not just individuals who amassed vast fortunes; they were human beings with families, friends, and aspirations. They were pioneers who, through their ingenuity and hard work, contributed to the betterment of society in various ways. To reduce their deaths to a punchline is a grave disservice to their legacies and an affront to the very principles upon which our civilization was built.
The crux of the matter lies not solely in the jokes themselves, but rather in what they signify—a coarsening of our collective moral fiber. We have become desensitized to the suffering of others, finding amusement in their pain, regardless of their station in life. This is indicative of a society teetering on the precipice of its own demise. When empathy and compassion are supplanted by cruelty and indifference, we risk losing our humanity and the values that have sustained us for centuries.
Moreover, the jests about the billionaire deaths in the Titan submarine implosion reveal a deeper malaise—the growing resentment and envy towards those who have achieved extraordinary success. Rather than celebrating their accomplishments, we have succumbed to a toxic narrative that vilifies wealth and denigrates success. This divisive rhetoric only serves to exacerbate the fractures within our society, pitting us against each other and sowing the seeds of discontent and discord.
It is essential to remember that a society's strength lies in its ability to foster a spirit of aspiration and achievement, not in tearing down those who have succeeded. Mocking the deaths of billionaires, or anyone for that matter, undermines the very fabric of our civilization. It is a testament to our moral bankruptcy and our inability to appreciate the virtues of dignity, empathy, and respect.
The jokes about the tragic deaths of billionaires in the Titan submarine implosion should be seen as a wake-up call, a warning sign that we are drifting perilously close to the edge. As conservatives, we must be the custodians of our cultural values and defend the principles that have made our civilization great. We must reject the corrosive forces of cynicism and degradation, replacing them with a renewed commitment to decency, compassion, and intellectual rigor.
Let us stand against the coarsening of our society and resist the temptation to revel in the misfortune of others. We must strive for a higher standard, one that upholds the dignity and worth of every human life. For if we fail to do so, we risk consigning ourselves to the depths of our own demise—the end times of a civilization that lost sight of its own humanity.
― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Saturday, 24 June 2023 16:08 (ten months ago) link
Just here to pop in and say that by virtue of their wealth and hubris, the imploded submarine people were actually committing violence— their wealth came only at the suffering of others, and any other way of looking at it is completely off-the-charts bullshit
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Saturday, 24 June 2023 16:18 (ten months ago) link
it’s end times internet content not because people are being “mean” but because how did so many people get “hypnotized” into caring about this shit??????
― brimstead, Saturday, 24 June 2023 16:23 (ten months ago) link
compulsive opinion having and sharing
― brimstead, Saturday, 24 June 2023 16:24 (ten months ago) link
xp many people have retirement funds and things wrapped up in all kinds of unethical businesses. Few are not implicated in the violence of wealth extraction. Where is the line where people become “responsible” for it to the point where we dehumanize them?
― treeship., Saturday, 24 June 2023 16:42 (ten months ago) link