should i give the grateful dead a chance?

And that seems weird to me, I love the dead, but I can't stand pigpen.

ah sorry understood. he was embarrassing

I know, I think that if I was around in the late 60s, I would've been standing in the crowd at a dead show with my hands in my pockets and I would've been horrified to have him call me out for playing "pocket pool" and trying to get me to hit on the girl next to me instead. It must've been even more uncomfortable for the women at those shows with him on stage yelling at all the single guys in the audience to grab a girl and take her home.

Pig can be seen as cringey now but he was a vital part of the Dead and they really changed after he left, they lost a little something. I personally love Lovelight a lot, I love his raps, yes, they're kinda gross but considering the Dead used to dose people on the regular and did nitrous and tripped balls all the time, a lead singer encouraging people to fuck in the 60's and 70's does not seem like a huge deal at all, and by all accounts Pig looked like a biker but was a kind and gentle soul

also wtf the Donna bashing on this thread is way worse than anything Pig ever said on stage--she likely couldn't hear herself sing because of the loudness of the band, pretty sure there werent monitors really when the dead played

waterface OTM re: Pigpen. What's most tragic about him for me is that toward the end he was really starting to come into his own as a songwriter with his originals featured on the Europe 72 tour (i.e. "Mr. Charlie," "Chinatown Shuffle," and especially "The Stranger (Two Souls In Communion)"). I'm not the biggest fan of his extended raps, but I always have time for "Easy Wind" and "Hurts Me Too."

Donna's vocals improved a lot starting in 76, which is when they got the vocal monitor situation sorted properly.

waterface and J. Sam otm, Pig was really starting to level up his songwriting before he got really sick, I think he could have really developed into something special with a few more years

fwiw, there was a two part delve into his life on the official Deadcast that is really interesting.

Donna rules fuiud

also otm about the monitor issues

with pig it's interesting, people who knew him said that persona was... performative, it was an act, outside of that environment he was quiet, kind of introverted

his raps strongly evince a dubious view of consent, but yeah, dosing people with acid non-consensually _also_ is pretty dubious consent-wise. basically i think the dead were all shitty, fucked-up people in a shitty and fucked-up environment.

otm, the Deadcast episode spends a little time talking with people who knew him and how his whole persona was a deliberate construction

I also like Donna's takes on Loretta Lynn's "You Ain't Woman Enough".

I think Donna utterly bodies this song but am otherwise generally anti-Donna

One of my favorite things about the Pigpen era is how Robert Hunter would write lyrics for him tailored to the Pigpen persona, as in "Alligator," "Easy Wind," and "Mr. Charlie."

Pigpen was also, if I'm not mistaken, notably the only non-pot smoker in the Dead. I also get that his persona was "biker dude" but I have never seen him pictured on a motorcycle. As for his lyrics, I think he was just trying to do his version of the bawdy blues stuff he loved so much combined with the typical gross 60s rock and roll misogyny so prevalent at the time. For all of his raps, I'd trust Pigpen with my daughter long before I would let her near Croz or Page or any Eagle

i can see how people were into pigpen though, early on the most prevalent dead bootlegs were all from '71 which i find really interesting. the thing to understand is that particularly early on people went to dead gigs to have _fun_ and _dance_ and pigpen's songs were _way_ better suited to that than "dark star". i mean he was a charismatic blues shouter and jerry was kind of this reserved intellectual figure, it makes perfect sense to me that pigpen started out as the frontman.

also let's be fair a lot of the early garcia songs were just hot fucking messes. in the studio more than live, for certain, but if you ask me what i'd rate higher, a '68 _other one_ or a '68 _caution_, i'd go with _caution_ all the way.

with pig it's interesting, people who knew him said that persona was... performative, it was an act, outside of that environment he was quiet, kind of introverted

From the 500 Songs podcast episode:

https://500songs.com/podcast/episode-165-dark-star-by-the-grateful-dead/

Pig Pen was pretty much universally considered the nicest person in the band, even though he was the scariest-looking of the band. While the others mostly looked like cuddly hippies but could be utterly cold-minded when they needed to be for the good of the band, Pig Pen was regarded by everyone who spoke about him in later decades as being practically a saint.

xp Def agree re: Caution in '68. 3/17/68 China Cat -> The Eleven -> Caution -> Feedback is as hot as it gets

1968-06-14 caution is... whew. there's a board recording out officially but i love the blown-out super-distorted aud. then again 1970-05-08 SUNY dark star is one of my faves as well, yes please make the dead sound like rallizes thank you

Has this appeared on here before, can't see it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ln4D3g_tqw
swings between sublime and frustrating. Shows the band at a bit of a peak to me in it being May 1970 and does show them in free flow but does cut off too soon a few times. Plus camera can be looking at wrong place at other times.
Title is misleading, cos different Hollywood. & i need to look up why its a sole date in the area between other US dates.
BUt what's there is great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TnyOKI5BSM

I was just trying to add a comment to that 2nd film which is 2 years earlier.
I haven't watched it through but am aware of the occasion it was filmed at. & I think a still from that date was included in the inner gatefold of Live Dead.

Had been about to up this before it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFtQr_W3opM
but wasn't sure if the sound was from the same performance exactly. But have watched this one and think it looks amazing.

swings between sublime and frustrating. Shows the band at a bit of a peak to me in it being May 1970 and does show them in free flow but does cut off too soon a few times. Plus camera can be looking at wrong place at other times.

According to Dead lore, the camera crew was heavily dosed at that show (probably without their knowledge), hence the wonky camera action

Finally got around to getting a copy of Dead's Cornell 5/8/77. On the road today I listened to the first two Cds. It is really well recorded. The Scarlet>Fire is definitely Jerry and Phil in the zone. It was pretty wild hearing Jerry really get into it and do all that tremolo picking at the climax of 'Fire on the Mountain'. That is a technique you rarely hear him do as it is more of an Eddie Van Halen or Dick Dale thing on guitar.

I have that set, it is pretty great

Looks like both of those 68 videos I linked ti yesterday sync to audio from the performance. Not sure if either filmed with their own audio or if that was even a thing at the time. But they do sync up directly. You can see Bob Weir sing at right timeon the Other One and I think drummers make right action for sound.

I'd only heard the studio albums up to Blues for Allah, so I took The Best Of The Grateful Dead out of the library to get an idea of the rest. Here's the running order of the post-77 studio tracks, have any worthy songs been omitted? For what it's worth I only really liked the first three below; "Touch of Grey" is OK but I had my fill of it when it was on the radio and TV in 1987.

Estimated Prophet
Terrapin Station
Shakedown Street
I Need A Miracle
Fire On The Mountain
Feel Like A Stranger
Far From Me
Touch Of Grey
Hell In A Bucket
Throwing Stones
Black Muddy River
Blow Away
Foolish Heart
Standing On The Moon

Althea should be on there.

I also like “west l.a fadeaway” and Brent’s “tons of steel” from in the dark

I like a lot of Go To Heaven, but that might just be me

e.g. "Don't Ease Me In" and "Alabama Getaway"

+1 on "West L.A. Fadeaway"

"Lost Sailor" from Go To Heaven = nice dark yacht vibes from Bob

Bob:yacht::oil:water

Definitely West L.A. Fadeaway. I'm a fan of Passenger, off of Terrapin Station. It's a brief, fast-paced rocker. I don't think there's anything else in their catalog that sounds like it.

https://i.imgur.com/DQfsR3q.png
Except this

Listening to 8/19/89 today, the last time they played at the Greek. First set is fine, but the second set has that '89 X-factor. Healy's effects are just enough to make the "Other One" out of an absolutely killer "Space" really trippy. It's rare, but I love it when Healy uses his powers to heighten the vibe instead of just fucking with Bobby or dropping in a choo-choo FX or w/e. If you are pressed for time, just listen to the sequence from "PITB > UJB > PITB > D/S > TOO > Wharf Rat > Not Fade Away".

I have my misgivings, still, but my friend sent me this one months ago and it converted me a bit— the Dark Star really cooks, all you Deadheads know it already but it was revelatory for me. (Helps if yr nice and toasted)

https://archive.org/details/gd69-04-20.sbd.lutch.4992.sbeok.shnf

everyone was dosed of course

table, glad you are finding a way in. It's a fun journey when you do.

Passenger IS great! Maybe Alabama Getaway compares a little bit but yeah- solid uptempo song for a band that by then wasn't so speedy.

Lesh wrote the song, admittedly based on Fleetwood Mac’s riff for their song “Station Man.” Lesh said, in an interview in Dupree’s Diamond News, “What's weird about that song is I sort of did it as a joke. It's a take on a Fleetwood Mac tune called ‘Station Man.’ I just sort of sped it up and put some different chord changes in there..."

Also Terrapin Station was produced by Keith Olsen, who produced the Buckingham/Nicks album, played it for Mick Fleetwood, and produced the s/t 1975 Fleetwood Mac album.

Today's road disc for me was Road Trips Vol. 2 #3 also labeled as the "Wall of Sound". It is a 2 CD collection from June of '74 with one set from Iowa and one set from Louisville. Great sound on this one, probably as good a drum sound as you can get on one of the 2 track live recordings. There is a couple of good "Eyes of the World" and a long take on the "Weather Report Suite" on this one.

Love that one. The mix of the archive stream of Iowa '74 starts with everyone turned down except for single drummer Billy & Phil which is interesting to hear.

What is Bob on about in weather report suite?
Song is all over the map

the love of the women, the work of men, things of that nature

Stella Blue vs Black Peter

After becoming more familiar with Bobby’s compositional style, I can read jack straw as his

I might be wrong but I think at least elements of the Weather Report Suite were come up with in jams and developed into a finished song, as you would see it listed as Weather Report Jsm on some live tapes. D think if that was the case, it was a fairly unique song in the Dead’s catalog.

I think a few other of ‘Bobs’ numbers came together that way too. They wrote that way early on and went back to it for Blues for Allah, but more often the song were written or covers brought into the band.

WRS is one of those Bobby songs that reminds me of show tunes. You settle into a groove then all of a sudden a new character jumps on stage out of nowhere and hollers “what shall we say shall we call it by a name?” And the songs takes a left turn. St of Circumstance would be another example.

Lazy Lightning too, but it usually makes me think of a 60s sitcom theme. “On this week’s episode, Lazy Lightning has a misunderstanding with his/her roommate and hilarity ensues”

https://i.imgur.com/ZGCOPTc.jpg

So DP8 is my favorite DP yet, so acoustic ‘70

Speaking of Bobs and "Stella Blue," Dylan recently covered it in Spain, but I haven't listened yet.
Was taking a break from his Neverending and Dead's too, although this Jambase report on a June 30 release has me intrigued:

Grateful Dead – RFK Stadium, Washington, D.C. 6/10/73
Five previously unreleased Grateful Dead from spring 1973 are the focus of Here Comes Sunshine 1973, a massive 17-CD boxed set that arrived today. One of those five shows — RFK Stadium, Washington, D.C. 6/10/73 — is out now on streaming services, in physical formats and as a digital download. The Grateful Dead’s June 10, 1973 performance was the second of two nights played at the huge multi-purpose stadium in the District of Columbia. The Allman Brothers Band shared the bill each night. Highlights from June 10, 1973 include an impactful “Morning Dew” opener along with jam-filled versions of “Bird Song,” “Playing In The Band,” “Eyes Of The World” and the beloved “Dark Star.”

A third set saw the band — guitarists Bob Weir and Jerry Garcia, bassist Phil Lesh, drummer Bill Kreutzmann, vocalist Donna Jean Godchaux and keyboardist Keith Godchaux — joined by Allman Brothers Band guitarist Dickey Betts and drummer Butch Trucks as well as longtime Garcia collaborator Merl Saunders on organ. The assembled musicians treated fans to a run of covers that included Bob Dylan’s “It Takes A Lot To Laugh It Takes A Train To Cry,” the Elvis-popularized “That’s Alright Mama,” Chuck Berry’s “Promised Land” and “Johnny B. Goode” and Buddy Holly’s “Not Fade Away.” Both “Drums” and “Goin’ Down The Road Feelin’ Bad” were encapsulated by “Not Fade Away.” Plangent Processes tape restoration and speed correction were used on the original recording with mastering by Jeffrey Norman.

There was some discussion of that show on the live GD thread. It’s a true gem.