Maligned Genres aka "I like everything except..."

That's surprising. Maybe it's down to where you grew up. In suburban home counties state schools it was the geeks, reticent weirdos and would-have-been goths who were into nu metal at my school/college/uni. Most nu metallers I knew were just lovely IRL and it was the jocky shiny-shirted towny pricks who would chase them through the town centre looking for a fight after the indie/rock disco closed. That said, there weren't many good dance or RnB clubs in the area really - it was all commercial meatmarkets which attracted assholes only

Haha yeah I'll admit rural Portugal prob not representative of most areas but in my high school it was like...for popular boys particularly, you weren't going to listen to pop or dance music because that was seen as gay. Hip-Hop was out because racism (an exception made for Eminem, of course). Indie wasn't really something anyone was aware of. So yeah, it was Nu Metal + some other older rock and metal acts (Nirvana, Metallica).

it was either nu-metal/pop-punk, or it was 50 Cent/Blazin' Squad, or it was provincial takes on donk and happy hardcore. Part of the reason me and my best pal at high school for most of it became best pals was because we had the same "uncategorisable" tastes. We were listening to stuff that people would have considered really weird and outsider, which for teenagers in a small town outside Glasgow in the early 00's meant things from the Daria and Buffy soundtracks, and Ministry Of Sound compilations.

I feel like landfill indie is kind of an unfair inclusion in this poll because it is definitionally bad music. It's taking the worst and most worthless parts of a larger genre and then calling those parts a genre unto themselves due to their badness.

Electro swing may well be the worst here, I still haven't listened to it. It didn't make sense to me to seek it out just for the purpose of building up a hatred big enough to vote in this poll.

Jimmie Rodgers AND Bill Monroe AND Bob Wills AND Johnny Cash AND Kris Kristofferson AND Alabama AND Garth Brooks

This is not what people on ILM are talking about when they are talking about country music, though, and you know it. It's like saying to someone who hates indie rock, "Oh, you hate Chuck Berry?" When people are talking about country music on ILM they're either talking about Miranda Lambert (yay!) or Morgan Wallen (boo!). There is prelapsarian country music I like — Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, Dwight Yoakam, Loretta Lynn. But 21st century country music is a poisoned well.

I am naturally suspicious of electro-swing fans because the romantic nostalgia for pre-war era culture says to me they're interested in a world where women, POC and LGBT+ had no visibility or rights.

― boxedjoy

I'm always a bit sceptical of this sort of rendering of people who are into specific eras - I personally love a lot of 1920s avant-garde stuff without being into fascism, the majority of steampunks don't like Victoriana b/c they love imperialism, a lot of art from particular eras is specifically AGAINST the reigning political climate, etc etc - but knowing the sort of demographic who are into electro-swing I actually fully believe that this is a part of the appeal for them.

Also I always associated nu-metal fans with jocks - it wasn't the same alternative crowd who actually were weird outsiders, it was for jocks who wanted to rock out without any of the 'icky' queerness or femininity that other rock acts might have.

THen the category should have been "Bro Country" or "Contemporary Country" or something.

It's like saying to someone who hates indie rock, "Oh, you hate Chuck Berry?"

Oh yes, it's exactly like this.

I'll freely admit that there may well be more good country than there is good stuff in a lot of these other categories. The difference for me is that I'm vastly more likely to encounter shitty country out in the wild than most of these other genres, and the shitty side of it gets my back up in a way that these others just don't.

xp lol er, yeah. I think most non-US posters associate country with Daniel's list.

The Morgan Wallen thread has 250 posts since 2021. Looks like most was posted last week due to recent events.

with electroswing it's not about the social or political elements of the music and the culture that birthed it - it's just taking "old-timey" music and making it into novelty dance music. In my experience people who are into this stuff are not into any "Proper Dance Music" at all and I think that's very revealing

i was in middle school during the nu-metal era and IME it was definitely for the maladjusted outsider kids

see: any photo of Slipknot
see also: Linkin Park's anime music video

nu-metal was basically for failed jocks, in my orbit at least. This perspective is probably shaped by the geography of local tastes as well as my own experience as a gay teenager in a small town. Donk and happy hardcore were seen as music for "wee bams", you'd have called them "chavs" down south, and that was a huge part of the tribalism of taste that shaped the social identities of teenagers here, but obviously these types of dance music were not popular in eg London, the way they were here

Nu Metal was after my school days, so I mostly know it through Woodstock 99 and seeing Fred Durst jocking around.

I would have had infinitely more fun dancing to DJ Cammy and DJ Rankin than I ever did trying not get caught in a moshpit to Korn but I would never have been welcome in the space where that was played. It's just that I was also not ever really welcome in the other space where it felt like I should have belonged, and that to me is almost worse for it's disingenuity - you had to be the right kind of outsider to belong to the outsider tribe

btw I don't think any of the radio stations where you guys are hearing Rascal Flatts or whoever brand themselves as "Country & Western" anymore, as there is very little Western Swing influence in Contemporary Country. So the poll option itself seems to more about the 20th century form of the music.

I am naturally suspicious of electro-swing fans because the romantic nostalgia for pre-war era culture says to me they're interested in a world where women, POC and LGBT+ had no visibility or rights.

Boxedjoy, no offense but I think you're overanalyzing. My gay son was actually the one who brought electro-swing to my attention, knowing that I have a love of old jazz and virtually no knowledge of current EDM. He would certainly have nothing to do with the nostalgia or the scene you're describing. The shows we saw together were filled with young, arty crowds, a good number of whom I would assume were LGBT+.

there was a weird generational thing where my year at uni were all post-britpop or clubbers or w/e and then maybe two years younger everyone had tatoos and piercings and skateboarded and listened to nu metal and ska punk. I remember going to reading festival one year and realising I was absolutely surrounded by them. then I saw them bottle Daphne & Celeste offstage and decided once and for all that these people and their music could all fuck right off.

All your nu-metal perspectives are hilarious to me because they are so clearly the viewpoints of pop-oriented teens. "Ooh, that aggro music for meathead jocks! No, we don't like that at all!" When nu-metal arrived, I was firmly ensconced in the world of Actual Metal (Motörhead, Slayer, Cannibal Corpse etc.) and Korn, Limp Bizkit, et al. were seen as music for p_ssies and f@gs. "Oh, your daddy didn't love you? THAT'S NOT METAL. FUCK OFF." *plays "Hammer Smashed Face" on a loop for an hour*

you had to be the right kind of outsider to belong to the outsider tribe

This has been my experience across the spectrum with every genre of non-popular (and popular!) music I’ve enjoyed.

I have a feeling ILM might be the wrong place to ask for a true opinion on the hopes, dreams and opinions of Electro-Swing audiences are. In this thread, descriptions range from "music for estate agents" to "cabaret burlesque festival types", so which is it to be (maybe there's a Venn crossover between these two but I somehow doubt it)

At my school jocks were not into stuff like Slayer.

it was for jocks who wanted to rock out without any of the 'icky' queerness

well joke’s on them for listening to korn i guess

In my experience growing up, any sort of rock-oriented music up through school/college/uni was seen as a bit outsidery and leftfield and for weirdos. Even indie rock. Cool people definitely didn't listen to metal.

It was the jocks getting in shiny shirts and too much hair gel drinking Red Square and trying to fondle women in the mainstream pop and dance clubs before starting a fight outside.

Nu-Metal music might have had a macho, bratty side to it, and sure there are always going to be arseholes in every scene, but generally speaking nu-metal as a scene was the same as any other alternative rock scene at the time - the latest in the parade after grunge and before emo.

Also, it definitely seemed to attract more women than much of the metal that had come before it.

Can't believe I'm defending nu-metal, but this is just my experience. Geeks in ill-fitting jeans jumping around and letting loose Vs mainstream dunderheads in clothes from Burton menswear acting like twats

"music for estate agents" to "cabaret burlesque festival types", so which is it to be (maybe there's a Venn crossover between these two but I somehow doubt it)

Considering most of my experience with cabaret burlesque festival types is rich kids dicking about on drugs and having a dabble in the 'exotic' world of theatricality, there definitely is overlap. I do know a few queer/outsider burlesquers but honestly the majority are super fucking privileged normies.

seen as music for p_ssies and f@gs

Well, you sound lovely.

yeah unperson, I think it's probably fair to say that modern 21st century country is what ppl on ILM mean when they talk about country on, well, contemporary country threads, but considering this list was posted by a Brit and no one here knows wtf a Miranda Lambert or Morgan Wallen is, I think it's a crazy assumption that this is What We Were All Talking About. To riposte to your Chuck Berry comment, your stance is like assuming that if I say "jazz" I obviously mean Esperanza Spalding.

To be fair to everyone else, I probably sound like I'm massively gatekeeping 'the weirdo kids' right now, which isn't great on my part. But I was right about Grimes. I WAS RIGHT ABOUT GRIMES!

xp to myself

so we were supposed to assume that the country inclusion on here was not meant to cover anything from the last 20+ years?

re: the nu metal discussion, again just personal experience but fwiw the fact that Nu Metal lyrics and videos were very much about the angsty outsider didn't give the popular jocks in my class any cognitive dissonance - teens are moody regardless of social status, and they could easily apply that angst to anger at their parents, teachers, girlfriend, etc.

then again my high school dynamics weren't as cartoonishly hierarchical as the US/UK archetype often seems

Moodles, no, I would assume it includes everything from the last 20 years and everything before that, too. which is why it's a crazy option imo.

^OTM

To riposte to your Chuck Berry comment, your stance is like assuming that if I say "jazz" I obviously mean Esperanza Spalding.

Or that “rock” can’t possibly include Led Zep & AC/DC… it can only mean Avenged Sevenfold, I Prevail, and whatever else is on the Mainstream Rock chart this week.

Well, you sound lovely.

Suburban NJ in the late '80s and early '90s was another world.

Also, it definitely seemed to attract more women than much of the metal that had come before it.

Which was another strike against it among True Metal Brothers, of course.

i think it’s weird that on a board 1) with so much professed anti capitalism 2) where we tie ourselves in knots trying to separate art and artist, so many ppl are invested in making choices re: cultural consumption based on broad assumptions about (the rest of) the audience, and then confuse those consumer choices with actual politics

Many XPS to emil.y

It's two different types of rich kids though non? Trustafarian runaways who spend their whole summer in a van going from small festival to small festival Vs, well, "yuppies".

But anyway, this is splitting hairs.

I agree that a kneejerk "I do not like this thing and therefore it is problematic and the people who like it must luuurve racism and homophobia" isn't always a useful or charitable approach.

Like you say, it's okay to appreciate and take enjoyment from aspects of art from the past without being all-in on problems to do with that era. By that standard, one could just as well say that any 90s rave-influenced dance music is problematic because it elides the Gulf war and the AIDS pandemic (or something).

Still, there is something annoyingly icky about Electro-Swing. Maybe I just don't enjoy cosplay?

fwiw the fact that Nu Metal lyrics and videos were very much about the angsty outsider didn't give the popular jocks in my class any cognitive dissonance - teens are moody regardless of social status, and they could easily apply that angst to anger at their parents, teachers, girlfriend, etc.

correct. and this paragraph could just as easily be about nirvana

I just want to say that as a Black kid in the 70s and 80s growing up in the exurbs of the Twin Cities, the country audience I knew was extremely good ol’ boy Confederate flag-waving racist so there’s a strong negative association with even the good country artists for me

not saying we should uncritically digest michael bay movies, but seems like most ilxors have better reasons for disliking those movies (if they dislike them in the first place) than their feelings about the fanbase!

I think it's weird that people's feeling are hurt because 10 people said they don't like country

I can't think of a single genre that I would be saddened to learn is an ilxor's least favorite. I feel pretty confident that just about everything I listen to is someone's least favorite on here.

Limp Bizkit's Greatest Hitz is a bit of fun until it gets to the Results May Vary material, can't knock em that.

just because people are judging you, it doesn’t mean their feelings are hurt

(Ditto the metal heads, and pretty much anyone who didn’t listen to some form of pop music. Don’t get me wrong, the pop fans also had racists, but the likelihood that someone who also liked pop was a racist was much lower than the people who aggressively didn’t like pop, which shaped a large number of my preconceptions as I wandered into genres more removed from pop music)

lol, got it, I have been judged

not just judged, but found lacking!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0fq7Zosa0

from a very early korn show where the band are wearing masks and john davis is dressed like every trans girl i know in 2023. regarding the real/false metal dichotomy unperson brings up i assume because it's such a bad and stupid dichotomy (proud pussy and fag here), they were way closer to pantera at this point than you'd think

so we were supposed to assume that the country inclusion on here was not meant to cover anything from the last 20+ years?

― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Tuesday, May 23, 2023 3:45 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

The point of the thread was to list genres which, in my time, I commonly hear people say they really don't like. And often this comes from a place of wilful ignorance.

It's likely that people who say they hate country and western, only have a very limited knowledge of the style. Maybe they associate it with linedancing classes their parents used to take, for example, and they just think it's really lousy and uncool.

Listeners from countries outside of the US will have a totally different take on country than those within too. It's not as prevalent or even all that relevant. I think maybe my dad's generation might have encountered it more than mine. In the eighties and nineties it was seen as a form of old-person easy listening music on a par with New Age, and only in recent decades has it become cool again with the Nashville TV show, Taylor Swift, Johnny Cash's American Recordings etc....

it’s ok, i will lower my standards, now that i know you’re a nu metal listener. grading on a curve, so to speak

I'm not a Nirvana "fan" by any stretch, I only really know the hits and enjoy them to varying degrees, but there's definitely a world of difference between Cobain and Durst, even if the same demographic found the same use of their music in establishing their own identity as listeners and as community. I think Cobain would have been horrified by what the grunge continuum evolved into

regarding the real/false metal dichotomy unperson brings up i assume because it's such a bad and stupid dichotomy (proud pussy and fag here), they were way closer to pantera at this point than you'd think

It was extremely stupid. I mean, just a few years later I remember being at a metal festival in Asbury Park the week Rob Halford came out and the conversations around that were uniformly along the lines of, "Well, everybody knew that, and who cares? Rob Halford's awesome."

I'm sure there are people out there who've had terrible experiences at clubs with douchebros soundtracked by tech-house who would consider it as the worst music ever, and no amount of bangers I could post would change their mind because they'll never strip it of personal context. I love that Brad is able to quickly find a video of Korn that suggests an intention different to my experience of them as a listener in a social context, but this music is still always going to sound like being called a [SLUR] by boys who reek of Lynx Africa

I was just out of high school when nu metal hit and a lof the experiences here seem very foreign to me. Like the jocks at my high school were not listening to korn. The jocks when I grew were all pop rap listeners for sure, with some pop/country/cancon mixed in maybe.