I love the Miles records and admire his two solo albums, but I don't think that Tony Williams's drumming on Emergency rocked enough. I like the record enough to have both mixes, but there's no-one in the group who holds anything down (the aimless walking organ bass isn't much help). The playing on Turn It Over was more straightforward, but the group energy is starting to flag.
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 14:40 (eleven months ago) link
...and none of the drumming on Emergency sounds much like Keith Moon to me.
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 14:41 (eleven months ago) link
It doesn't sound like Moon to me, either, but it sounds influenced by Moon. If that makes any sense. And I'm willing to accept that it doesn't.
Thought this was interesting:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/charlie-watts-rolling-stones-drummers-beatles-jazz-1216494/
Watts talks about seeing Tony Williams in the young drummer’s early years with Miles Davis. “He was so unlike anybody else,” he says. I mention that during an interview with Williams he once told me that the single influence who opened him to drumming so wide was Keith Moon. Watts’ eyes grow wide, and he leans his head rearward as if taken aback: “Blimey.”When I thought about it, I say, it made sense. “Not to me,” says Watts. “Keith Moon, there was a character. Loved him. There’s only one of him. I miss him a lot. He was a very charming bloke, a lovely guy, really, but quite…”Watts pauses to make a “whew” sound. “But he could be a difficult guy, really. Actually, there wasn’t only one of him. He was more like three people in one. He used to live here in Los Angeles for a while, in some of his madder days. God, I remember being here once with him when he tried to turn me on to chocolate ants; he was walking about with tins of chocolate ants. That’s what I mean. He was not your regular guy, in that way, but he was, in his heart, a nice guy. I always got on well with him.”Watts shakes his head and smiles at the memory. “He was an amazing drummer with Pete [Townshend]. I don’t know if he was a very good drummer outside of Pete,” he adds, laughing. “A lot of guys, I don’t think, would have liked playing with him. He didn’t play real time or anything. He wasn’t funky or anything. He was a whole other thing. He was on top of everything, and maybe that’s what Tony liked, but you’d never think that Tony was like … I would have thought Roy Haynes was his big influence.
When I thought about it, I say, it made sense. “Not to me,” says Watts. “Keith Moon, there was a character. Loved him. There’s only one of him. I miss him a lot. He was a very charming bloke, a lovely guy, really, but quite…”
Watts pauses to make a “whew” sound. “But he could be a difficult guy, really. Actually, there wasn’t only one of him. He was more like three people in one. He used to live here in Los Angeles for a while, in some of his madder days. God, I remember being here once with him when he tried to turn me on to chocolate ants; he was walking about with tins of chocolate ants. That’s what I mean. He was not your regular guy, in that way, but he was, in his heart, a nice guy. I always got on well with him.”
Watts shakes his head and smiles at the memory. “He was an amazing drummer with Pete [Townshend]. I don’t know if he was a very good drummer outside of Pete,” he adds, laughing. “A lot of guys, I don’t think, would have liked playing with him. He didn’t play real time or anything. He wasn’t funky or anything. He was a whole other thing. He was on top of everything, and maybe that’s what Tony liked, but you’d never think that Tony was like … I would have thought Roy Haynes was his big influence.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 15:54 (eleven months ago) link
Bonham >>>>>> Moon > Watts >>> Baker
Ginger may have had technical chops, but wasted them on unmusical wankery. Moon lacked chops but compensated with a gonzo creative sense and personality.
One of those dudes was unimpeachable and his name was John Bonham.
I don't have a strong opinion about Tony Williams.
― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 16:55 (eleven months ago) link
tony wiliams: good drummer, terrible band leader
where does mitch mitchell fall in all of this for ya'll?
― my beard exists more than i do. (Austin), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:15 (eleven months ago) link
i like him
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:18 (eleven months ago) link
i would basically agree w/YMP
One thing I never understood -- and I posted this elsewhere -- is why, even though "fusion" owes much of its existence to Hendrix, no "fusion" musicians seemed to seek out Mitch Mitchell for collaboration (or Billy Cox, for that matter).
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:20 (eleven months ago) link
I agree about Bonham.
Tony Williams did have a crazy arc...utter mastery as a teenager, absorbing all the great drummers and taking it all somewhere new, just incandescent creativity and technique. And then the initial moves into rock and fusion, and my guess is afterward playing jazz at big festivals more than small clubs had a big effect? As well as having his own reputation and being a leader maybe. I know from his clinics that he talked a lot of control and consistency, and changing his technique to achieve it.
And he never stopped playing jazz, he had his group with Mulgrew Miller and Wallace Roney (even if his playing & sound came off as a lot heavier than in the '60s), and focused on composing. His last record was a jazz + orchestra suite that he wrote. It really sucks that he didn't live to be an elder statesmen and mix it up with the current generation, I'd love to know what kind of influence they might have had on him aesthetically.
xp
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:25 (eleven months ago) link
Austin, thanks for the prompt. Mitchell is also up there in all-time world-class forever faves. So maybe
Mitchell = Bonham >>>>>> Moon = Watts >>> Baker
As may be clear by now I am not a Baker fan
― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:26 (eleven months ago) link
somebody once tried to tell me that hendrix was "ruined" while being backed by mitchell and that band of gypsies was clearly superior. lol.
i've always really liked mitch mitchell and thought of his style as similar to moon's in that kind of "controlled chaos" sort of mode. mitchell obviously has a lot more restraint by comparison, but he was constantly just all over the place.
on that note, miles was documented about how much of an impact hendrix had on him - d'ya think tony williams absorbed any of mitchell's vibe, like idk, via osmosis?
― my beard exists more than i do. (Austin), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:37 (eleven months ago) link
I also think of Mitchell & Moon as more similar, less as pocket drummers and more as jazz-influenced, busy, and interactive.
Tbh the only Hendrix LP I really spent any serious time with is the Live at the Fillmore East record with Buddy Miles, so through that I'm a Band of Gypsies > UK trio person, lol.
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:44 (eleven months ago) link
Fun fact: Mitchell auditioned for the Who in 1964, but (obviously) didn’t get the gig.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:46 (eleven months ago) link
The Jimi Hendrix Experience doesn't get nearly as much recognition and appreciation as they deserve these days.
― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:51 (eleven months ago) link
(imagining an alternate timeline where moon ends up in the jhe)
― my beard exists more than i do. (Austin), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:52 (eleven months ago) link
the who kinda suck!
― kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 17:59 (eleven months ago) link
laswell glop vs zorn glop
<3 kurt
― sarahell, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:01 (eleven months ago) link
Dude you want to hear the worst of the worst you gotta check out the Ginger Baker Bill Laswell albums there's like 20 of them.
― kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:08 (eleven months ago) link
Ok maybe there's only 2.
― kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:10 (eleven months ago) link
Axis is my favorite, and I think Hendrix and the Experience were obviously great players but I think he's so (deservedly) revered as a player he doesn't get enough credit for making great records, great songs with super creative production choices
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:15 (eleven months ago) link
Ranking of drummers who couldn't sing but sang anyway:
MoonBakerWilliams
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:17 (eleven months ago) link
Mitch Mitchell put lots of pauses and holes in his drumming, it feels like he got Hendrix floating.
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:19 (eleven months ago) link
my fav jimi shows are the exp/gypsies hybrid with cox on bass and mitchell on drums
― kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:21 (eleven months ago) link
I def prefer Zorn Glop to Laswell Glop. Laswell Glop has that weird uncanny ECM sheen to it (fretless bass and too much reverb).
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:23 (eleven months ago) link
And I agree that it's weird that apparently no one wanted to play with Mitchell post-Hendrix. Not even Laswell! You'd think he would have thrown him on an Arcana or Material record, to bring things full circle.
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:30 (eleven months ago) link
Drummers who drum like that (Loosely, I mean the Mitchell, Moon, Bonham, Baker type) could only get away with it because they were in solid bands that didn't need a centered drummer keeping things rock-steady. They were skilled enough to have a drummer who just played whatever-the-fuck because they didn't need the drummer to be a metronome.
Manyof those bands didn't require a timekeeper to hold down the backbeat, they got the other thing that drummers can provide: manic flurries of ornament.
There's a thing about this: think of the plays "Hamlet" and "King Lear."
Switch the protagonist and you get significantly shorter plays.
― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:32 (eleven months ago) link
Surely you didn't mean to include Bonham in there
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 18:38 (eleven months ago) link
yeah was gonna say
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:07 (eleven months ago) link
I wouldn't call Baker loose, either, if anything his fault was heavy-handedness. But keeping the rhythm wasn't his specialty either.
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:13 (eleven months ago) link
he kinda sucks actually the more i think about it
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:13 (eleven months ago) link
i used to think of him as a great drummer i didn't like that much but i think that was just because i felt like he was so well regarded in drummer world i had to take him seriously
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:14 (eleven months ago) link
Baker's not great on the records that made his name (Cream, mostly). But some of the other stuff — Air Force, the album with Fela, the first Ginger Baker Trio record, his last album Why? — is enjoyable. If you come in with your arms crossed, "Impress me, Mr. Self-Declared Drum God!", then no, there's nothing there. But if you just listen to them as blends of jazz, rock, and West African rhythms, there's more than enough to enjoy there.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:19 (eleven months ago) link
oh I do like that first Baker Gurvitz Army record okay though I have a pretty high tolerance for that kinda 70s wooly mammoth hard rock shit
i'll check out those recommendations
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:22 (eleven months ago) link
to me, Laswell is like half-assed Zorn
― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 19:26 (eleven months ago) link
Baker is great on that Fela record but he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as those other drummers
― a (waterface), Tuesday, 9 May 2023 20:11 (eleven months ago) link
Jordan / ums, fair point! Bonham did seventy times as much timekeeping as the sloppy tomwankers. He is in a category of his own.
Still, Mitchell and Bonham are in a premier tier of all-fuckin-time musicians.
Moon was a lovable goofball. Never claimed to be a genius or a drum god. I am not a fan of his playing but I don't hate him.
Baker's playing is often incoherent sloppy tomwankery. Yet he thought he was a genius and a drum God. Hence he gets some opprobrium.
― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 00:45 (eleven months ago) link
I love Moon but as people have said there's exactly one band he would have worked in, and he was in it, but it's thrilling to me to hear him and the Ox going apeshit
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 00:50 (eleven months ago) link
I wish there was film of the Ginger Baker / Elvin Jones drum battle. (Elvin wins this one)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuFwXfwGVEE
― Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 10 May 2023 01:57 (eleven months ago) link
It's not that no one wanted to play with Mitchell. He retired after Jimi.
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 10 May 2023 04:15 (eleven months ago) link
do u guys love music or what? that baker jones recording is wonderful!
enjoy the trash talk but tbh ginger baker is sounding great atm
― corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 10 May 2023 07:58 (eleven months ago) link
I got to see Mitchell play once in 1986 - with junked-out Stevie Ray Vaughn on a "Voodoo Child" cover, but Albert Collins and Hank Ballard were also there so it was pretty mind-blowing.
― Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 10 May 2023 10:27 (eleven months ago) link
Mitchell is almost my favorite drummer from that period, close to Bonham.
My anti-Baker feelings are well documented. I don't love Moon's playing but he didn't take himself half as seriously as Baker so he gets more likeage from me purely because of that. Yeah I'm shallow, deal with it.
― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 11:34 (eleven months ago) link
That's so siq Elvis!
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 10 May 2023 14:01 (eleven months ago) link
Here's the video of Baker getting smoked by Art Blakey if you haven't seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y32V6klRurY
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 16:55 (eleven months ago) link
While the Baker documentary is a little spotty, it made me realize I hadn't spent nearly enough time with Art Blakey/The Jazz Messengers. I bought one of those cheapo CD boxes (21 albums on 10 CDs) and listened to very little else for the next six months or so.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 17:23 (eleven months ago) link
they are so good.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 17:28 (eleven months ago) link
i did a partial jazz messengers discog run when i was doing that exhaustive wayne shorter listening project and yeah it is pretty much the greatest music ever played
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 17:45 (eleven months ago) link
ok fine lol, I still haven't dived in but clearly I need to
― Perverted By Linguiça (sleeve), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 19:16 (eleven months ago) link
I did the same Brad, and once again came to the same conclusion. Those Lee Morgan/Wayne Shorter era Art Blakey albums through the Shorter '60s records, whew, what else do you need.
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 19:19 (eleven months ago) link
A Night in Tunisia was one of the first jazz cds I bought (because it was on sale) and the opening of the title track struck me like the hammer of the gods.
― This machine bores fascism (PBKR), Wednesday, 10 May 2023 19:30 (eleven months ago) link