Post a controversial music opinion

Tbf he was alive and working through most of the '90s, but of course I wish he was still around and had gotten to play on better records in his latter years.

I would like to hear unperson's Tony Williams opinions. His playing and sound definitely changed over time (but of course his '60s sound and playing is a high water mark of the 20th century in general).

He was a Keith Moon fanatic (“He’s beautiful. Totally free”) who could have only intriguingly expanded on that influence (already begun on the first two Lifetime records), among many others, had he lived.

He died in 1997. How long were we supposed to wait for him to develop an interesting rock/fusion style? Williams was an amazing acoustic jazz drummer until about 1968. His interest in rock ruined him IMO. Not only did Lifetime mostly suck, but he was no longer able to go backward, shed those bombastic ideas, and revert to being the drummer he had once been. If he was still alive now he'd probably be talking about how much he loved Dream Theater.

Of course, I hate Keith Moon's drumming, too.

Never change.

Interesting discussion. One takeaway for me is it never occurred to me that he played on “Rise.”

Tbf he was alive and working through most of the '90s, but of course I wish he was still around and had gotten to play on better records in his latter years.

Definitely. I think he never found an approach that was able to successfully combine his love of volume with his (formerly, by the late ‘70s) idiosyncratic phrasing.

And I always wished he’d made about ten more albums along the lines of his two Blue Note dates as a leader, Spring and Life Time. There is very little like those records, then and now.

Lol, I don't entirely disagree though. xp

I remember that I used to be into this record, but I'm afraid that now it will just sound like Laswell glop to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R48Dt3A0grc

Of course, I hate Keith Moon's drumming, too.

It’s certainly not for everyone. Only a small handful of musicians have been able to grasp what he did (and an even smaller number to actually grapple with the vastness of his innovations).

You mean like playing fills all the time, or

No, I mean like orchestrating. And that’s the problem: he wasn’t a drummer in the traditionally-understood sense. He was the lead percussionist, and he tied together what Townshend and Entwistle did.

I think one reason Ginger Baker liked to shit on Moon is because Ginger did What Drummers Are Supposed To Do — being proficient in the rudiments and such — and here comes some speed-fueled maniac who acts like those rules never existed and starts winning “best drummer” polls in UK music papers. And it couldn’t have helped that one of Ginger’s heroes, Elvin Jones, said of Moon, “The man’s a drummer. Everything they play, he contains it,” while saying of Baker, “They should make him an astronaut and lose his ass.”

Elvin OTM

Ginger Baker's mediocrity as a jazz player is eclipsed only by his own estimation of himself as a great jazz player

watching yellowjackets has brought back memories of the music of this era

i thought you hated smooth jazz!

https://images.wolfgangsvault.com/m/xlarge/ZZZ006464-PP/the-yellowjackets-promo-print-.webp

Keith Moon is a much more interesting rock drummer than either Tony Williams or Ginger Baker.

And I can definitely see why jazz guys liked him, there is definitely an open ended improvisational quality to his drumming that was problem relatable.

One drummer who I think brings a similar free flowing jazziness to drumming is Mastodon's Brann Dailor, especially on Leviathan, and it's no surprise that he's a fan of Williams, Jones, and perhaps most importantly, Billy Cobham.

*probably relatable

“They should make him an astronaut and lose his ass.”

IRL lol, thank you Elvin

Mick Avory of the Kinks is a super underrated classic rock drummer

One drummer who I think brings a similar free flowing jazziness to drumming is Mastodon's Brann Dailor, especially on Leviathan, and it's no surprise that he's a fan of Williams, Jones, and perhaps most importantly, Billy Cobham.

Thanks for bringing him up. I was trying to think of really "busy" drummers I like other than Cobham and Dailor is definitely one.

I also think there's some Cobham stuff especially with Mahavishnu that's always sounded pretty proto-metal to me.

I always love that Elvin quote but not sure that Ginger Baker is really as bad as that.

Lol at Jordan’s phrase “Laswell glop.”

Would you like to record with me?
We’re doing the Laswell glop.

I love some Laswell records but lmfao at that

There's some stuff I've liked, Praxis for instance, but glop is about right, Laswell has some real lazy stuff that turned me off to him.

yes but those early Material albums (Temporary Music, Memory Serves) will always be special to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2sxEEImNxk

no not that stuff, I only like them with Fred Maher on drums, through 1981, when they were a band not a project (to borrow Carducci), then the Laswell effect sets in and it's all guest stars from there on out

I mean it's OK but those early EPs and first album are so great, along w/ the Massacre album

That track barely has a (vocoderized) vocal. I'm not mad about Material-with-vocals either besides Whitney Houston and Nona Hendryx's tracks.

i immed swerved into bangkok shocks saigon shakes laswell glops

I really really really wish I liked Hanoi Rocks more than I do

Yeah, that's a big one for me on the "bought the CD, tried hard, just couldn't get into it" list.

Low Life is an all time record for me, and I also like his Dub Chamber records, but maybe i just like noise and glop.

I love the Miles records and admire his two solo albums, but I don't think that Tony Williams's drumming on Emergency rocked enough. I like the record enough to have both mixes, but there's no-one in the group who holds anything down (the aimless walking organ bass isn't much help). The playing on Turn It Over was more straightforward, but the group energy is starting to flag.

...and none of the drumming on Emergency sounds much like Keith Moon to me.

It doesn't sound like Moon to me, either, but it sounds influenced by Moon. If that makes any sense. And I'm willing to accept that it doesn't.

Thought this was interesting:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/charlie-watts-rolling-stones-drummers-beatles-jazz-1216494/

Watts talks about seeing Tony Williams in the young drummer’s early years with Miles Davis. “He was so unlike anybody else,” he says. I mention that during an interview with Williams he once told me that the single influence who opened him to drumming so wide was Keith Moon. Watts’ eyes grow wide, and he leans his head rearward as if taken aback: “Blimey.”

When I thought about it, I say, it made sense. “Not to me,” says Watts. “Keith Moon, there was a character. Loved him. There’s only one of him. I miss him a lot. He was a very charming bloke, a lovely guy, really, but quite…”

Watts pauses to make a “whew” sound. “But he could be a difficult guy, really. Actually, there wasn’t only one of him. He was more like three people in one. He used to live here in Los Angeles for a while, in some of his madder days. God, I remember being here once with him when he tried to turn me on to chocolate ants; he was walking about with tins of chocolate ants. That’s what I mean. He was not your regular guy, in that way, but he was, in his heart, a nice guy. I always got on well with him.”

Watts shakes his head and smiles at the memory. “He was an amazing drummer with Pete [Townshend]. I don’t know if he was a very good drummer outside of Pete,” he adds, laughing. “A lot of guys, I don’t think, would have liked playing with him. He didn’t play real time or anything. He wasn’t funky or anything. He was a whole other thing. He was on top of everything, and maybe that’s what Tony liked, but you’d never think that Tony was like … I would have thought Roy Haynes was his big influence.

Bonham >>>>>> Moon > Watts >>> Baker

Ginger may have had technical chops, but wasted them on unmusical wankery. Moon lacked chops but compensated with a gonzo creative sense and personality.

One of those dudes was unimpeachable and his name was John Bonham.

I don't have a strong opinion about Tony Williams.

tony wiliams: good drummer, terrible band leader

where does mitch mitchell fall in all of this for ya'll?

i like him

i would basically agree w/YMP

One thing I never understood -- and I posted this elsewhere -- is why, even though "fusion" owes much of its existence to Hendrix, no "fusion" musicians seemed to seek out Mitch Mitchell for collaboration (or Billy Cox, for that matter).

I agree about Bonham.

Tony Williams did have a crazy arc...utter mastery as a teenager, absorbing all the great drummers and taking it all somewhere new, just incandescent creativity and technique. And then the initial moves into rock and fusion, and my guess is afterward playing jazz at big festivals more than small clubs had a big effect? As well as having his own reputation and being a leader maybe. I know from his clinics that he talked a lot of control and consistency, and changing his technique to achieve it.

And he never stopped playing jazz, he had his group with Mulgrew Miller and Wallace Roney (even if his playing & sound came off as a lot heavier than in the '60s), and focused on composing. His last record was a jazz + orchestra suite that he wrote. It really sucks that he didn't live to be an elder statesmen and mix it up with the current generation, I'd love to know what kind of influence they might have had on him aesthetically.

xp

Austin, thanks for the prompt. Mitchell is also up there in all-time world-class forever faves. So maybe

Mitchell = Bonham >>>>>> Moon = Watts >>> Baker

As may be clear by now I am not a Baker fan

somebody once tried to tell me that hendrix was "ruined" while being backed by mitchell and that band of gypsies was clearly superior. lol.

i've always really liked mitch mitchell and thought of his style as similar to moon's in that kind of "controlled chaos" sort of mode. mitchell obviously has a lot more restraint by comparison, but he was constantly just all over the place.

on that note, miles was documented about how much of an impact hendrix had on him - d'ya think tony williams absorbed any of mitchell's vibe, like idk, via osmosis?

I also think of Mitchell & Moon as more similar, less as pocket drummers and more as jazz-influenced, busy, and interactive.

Tbh the only Hendrix LP I really spent any serious time with is the Live at the Fillmore East record with Buddy Miles, so through that I'm a Band of Gypsies > UK trio person, lol.

Fun fact: Mitchell auditioned for the Who in 1964, but (obviously) didn’t get the gig.

The Jimi Hendrix Experience doesn't get nearly as much recognition and appreciation as they deserve these days.

(imagining an alternate timeline where moon ends up in the jhe)

the who kinda suck!