Nick Cave : Classic or Dud ?

I’m fairly agnostic on this dude as an artist but these days he seems constantly to be firing off “thoughtful” missives that sound like every other nuancepilled wise-man-bowed-his-head shitlib in the mediasphere

what will more than likely be the most important historical event in the UK of our age.

what a crock of the highest grade bullshit. lost it!!

I once met the late Queen at an event at Buckingham Palace for ‘Aspirational Australians living in the UK’ (or something like that). It was a mostly awkward affair, but the Queen herself, dressed in a salmon coloured twin-set, seemed almost extraterrestrial and was the most charismatic woman I have ever met. Maybe it was the lighting, but she actually glowed. As I told my mother – who was the same age as the Queen and, like the Queen, died in her nineties – about that day, her old eyes filled with tears. When I watched the Queen’s funeral on the television last year I found, to my bafflement, that I was weeping myself as the coffin was stripped of the crown, orb and sceptre and lowered through the floor of St. George’s Chapel. I guess what I am trying to say is that, beyond the interminable but necessary debates about the abolition of the monarchy, I hold an inexplicable emotional attachment to the Royals – the strangeness of them, the deeply eccentric nature of the whole affair that so perfectly reflects the unique weirdness of Britain itself. I’m just drawn to that kind of thing – the bizarre, the uncanny, the stupefyingly spectacular, the awe-inspiring.

this is pathetic

damn, nick cave. he is now in third place in the artist named nick cave contest

Was better on the drugs.

This is your brain on centrism

I guess what I am trying to say is that, beyond the interminable but necessary debates about the abolition of the monarchy, I hold an inexplicable emotional attachment to the Royals

Finds debates about the abolition of the monarchy "interminable", holds "an inexplicable emotional attachment to the Royals" — I think this 65-year-old Australian man has shockingly been revealed to be...a boring old conservative!

I'm just balancing this against Rollins's story about the two of them crashing some sort of official Australian cultural event in LA in the early 1980s where Cave wandered around the garden holding his hands out, looking through a triangle formed by his fingers, and telling curious guests that he was an avant-garde filmmaker who only shot through triangular lenses. The arcs one travels.

old guy Nick Cave kinda reminds me of old guy Boba Fett.

But did Boba Fett cry when The Emperor died?

someday we'll know

Queen herself, dressed in a salmon coloured twin-set, seemed almost extraterrestrial and was the most charismatic woman I have ever met


the things people project on to these charmless, disagreeable weirdos is incredible

i mean honestly QEII seemed thoroughly uncharismatic, is he sure he didn't meet Helen Mirren?

my Cave fanboy period was relatively brief, I got into the Birthday Party with Junkyard and felt like Henry's Dream was the last gasp of what I liked in his work, but I try to keep it in view when I'm working out how I respond to pretty much everything he's done since Let Love In -- but I hope it also gives me some perspective, just as a person who was into his stuff relatively early on -- anyway, this, along with his q&a's, along with his longform documentaries (one of which I took part in!), etc., all seem of a piece with a very deep desire on his part to feel legitimized, to be acknowledged by the normie world as having Amounted To Something. We all want to be seen to some extent, sure, and to have our work validated, but when you arrive at "I've always loved the Queen" to explain how you, an ostensibly iconoclastic artist to whatever extent, are now attending the coronation of a monarch -- it feels to me like that's yourself you're telling me about, not the Queen or the world or Britain or whatever else, and what you're telling me is that you are kind of simple, kind of just needing for people to say "you're somebody who belongs at center stage." which he is, but I think he hasn't satisfied the need to be told that.

I can't say I was thrilled to hear the news, but I can't say I'm so disappointed that I'm going to turn on the guy. Just from my experience, people have an attachment to the monarchy that isn't so simple, especially when they're older (and Nick Cave is turning 66 in September).

It may be easy just to say it's a generational gap, but I don't think that does it justice. I want to say a lot of it has to do with WWII, even if a particular person was born well after that happened or doesn't think about it consciously. This came up years ago when I was at a screening of The King's Speech (not a film I really liked), and the director was there discussing the monarchy with mostly an American audience. The focus shifted towards the ways Americans interpreted the film's events in stark contrast to the British, and it was implied that regardless of how you feel about a monarchy, when you have something like that in place, even if it's no longer a legislative or ruling power, there is a role that creates itself around it. In this case, when the world was hurtling towards an inevitable war with terrible consequences, the monarchy did fill a mental need that parliament or a PM would not have fulfilled - the feeling that life in the UK would continue, even under attack, and that eventually it would prevail. As Hooper tells it, that's why Edward's abdication was disgraceful, not romantic - he abandoned the country in its time of need - and why George's speech was given so much weight. I want to compare it to George W. Bush's 99% approval rating following 9/11 - even if half the country hated his administration, I think having the presidency there, still active and operational, brought a sense of relief and normalcy in an uncertain time, even if he would eventually leverage his popularity to instigate a terrible invasion and occupation.

Elizabeth II was a prominent face during WWII, famously driving a war ambulance, and even when the war faded into memory, I think that goodwill carried down through the ages. I don't think it's too contradictory to be against the monarchy and have this rosy view about her - ultimately it's the institution you're trying to bring to an end, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have something against the figurehead (Elizabeth II) personally.

nuancepilled? Is this a thing or did you just make this up?

Was thinking the same thing.

getting slightly irked about the legitimacy of a contemporary compound word from social media is the kind of thing that Nick Cave would do. You'll wanting to shag the queen next, lads

My question is who invited him?
Is Charles a big fan?

probably

how come aussies always have such confidence in their basic bitch received opinions on everything? a deeply regrettable country, yet another reason to hate the crown

his whole dark americana thing is the duddiest shit ever

cave's that is

Thing about Cave is that he’s often latched into the right people and used them. First was Mick Harvey whose brilliance as a musical director and creative foil is massively underrated, but obvious with the massive decline of the Bad Seeds since he left. Next was Rowland S Howard whose sound and worldview he aped and sucked dry before RSH bailed. Tracy Pew was brilliant and powerful too, but Cave was a haircut and a focal point for a band that he brought probably the least to. Blixa and Harvey sustained the Bad Seeds until they tired of his shit, so he hooked up with Ellis and has been unrelentingly mediocre and self-important ever since.

*onto

i don't actually know why anyone would expect cave to have a good opinion on anything at all

I really don't care what his opinions are, he's a fantastic singer/songwriter and that's good enough for me.

matt that's rather minimizing Cave as a performer, which is the utterly central appeal of all his projects. those immortal souls are fine 'n' all but do show me the bargeld/harvey records that are as good as the Bad Seeds. neubauten's nice but Cave's a bit better than "he surrounded himself with good people."

having said that, the OG Bad Seeds were something very special and the Ellis Bad Seeds, while still a compelling live act, are not in that neighborhood.

xpost hard agree. even just counting Cave’s contributions as a vivid songwriter & magnetic live performer, he can’t be dismissed out of hand even if you don’t like him

Cave is indeed a great performer but there are several Neubauten albums as good as anything by the Bad Seeds. Harvey might not have released an album of his own in the same league but has been involved with multiple albums as good as anything the Bad Seeds ever released without him - see oith RSH albums for a start.

x post

oith = both!!

I've never seen Cave live but I saw Neubauten four times (1989, 1990, 1992, 2000) and they were life-altering every single time. Like, "I can't believe human beings can achieve something this incredible" level stuff. Cave is a charismatic frontman, even if his charms are lost on me; Neubauten were without equal.

Yeah I agree Cave is an excellent performer, I guess I’m just weary of people (including himself) insisting he’s profound and iconoclastic on the basis of a lot of derivative schtick.

how come aussies always have such confidence in their basic bitch received opinions on everything? a deeply regrettable country

Probably not fair to the Australians on the board

I’ve seen him live twice btw, on the Henry’s Dream and Abattoir Blues/Lyre of Orpheus tours. Both pretty good altho sound problems crippled the latter.

xp eh I’m pretty basic and most of my opinions are received

I'm a nick cave fan though a latecomer to his thing, and I doubt I've been overexposed to the more grating aspects of his style.

"his whole dark americana thing is the duddiest shit ever"

he's a joke

Probably not fair to the Australians on the board

I assume Left is from an even more deeply regrettable country fwiw

I used to think it was a bit weird and creepy for blokes to be into his music all about murdering women and stuff

dudes love metal

australia is absolutely our fault btw

speaking of creepy has anyone read one of his books lately

First was Mick Harvey whose brilliance as a musical director and creative foil is massively underrated, but obvious with the massive decline of the Bad Seeds since he left.

Yeah this is the thing that's been getting to me for years. The switchout from Harvey to Ellis just...didn't work. Not that there haven't been some good songs along the way, but I just don't feel the Cave/Ellis creative partnership as anything deeply essential in comparison.

there's an interesting paper/thread/whatever to draw out from that about artists getting critical mass -- by the time Harvey leaves, Nick Cave no longer needs to excel. He just needs to not drop the ball. Keep being great live (by all reports he is still astonishing; even now, years out of the fanboy camp, I consider him the greatest rock frontman I've ever seen, just electric), make records that aren't terrible and have a couple of "that's pretty good" tracks, maintain the image. He's not the only artist, I'd venture, who's found that as long as you stay Good Enough, you can keep accruing new listeners, make a lifelong growth arc of it. What's interesting to me is other artists who might have followed a similar path but haven't -- Paul Westerberg is the first name that comes to mind here. I consider Tom Waits an almost identical case, his best work no later than the middle of his career.

Keep being great live (by all reports he is still astonishing; even now, years out of the fanboy camp, I consider him the greatest rock frontman I've ever seen, just electric)

Last time I saw him in person non-solo was with an ad-hoc band in the very late 90s, with Susan Stegner among the stripped down band -- it had the virtue of being compelling because it was very different to how I'd seen him before then. The late 2019 piano/audience interaction tour was very good in its own right too. I do regret missing Grinderman shows now just to see that in comparison in turn.

saw him on the Push the Sky Away tour (which I will stump for that album) so I don't know what it was before but goddamn they blew the doors off the place

_nuance_pilled? Is this a thing or did you just make this up?

I have gotten off the bus with Nick Cave a bunch of times - consigned him to the "adolescent stuff I liked as a teenager and grew out of" - but there has always been a creative zig or zag that has piqued my interest and got me back in. I would definitely consider some of the Bad Seeds shows I have seen to be peak rock music experiences - particularly Boatman's Call and Abattoir Blues tours (and that solo tour with Jim White and Susan Stengar that Ned mentions above was pretty great also).

Saw a Push The Sky Away show in a small theatre in Sydney (in this instance intrigued by Ed Kuepper's presence in the band). Had no real expectations. I think Jubilee Street was the third song in and I have never really seen anything like it. The whole place was levitating, band, crowd, venue. Incredible to take what is really a scrap of a song and turn it into something so transporting. Rest of the show was redundant but that moment was extraordinary.

Anyway I think the coronation thing is dumb and I haven't listened to his last couple of records and these days I can't even be bothered to find him embarrassing or frustrating most of the time. Agree that the Warren Ellis partnership is generally a bit underwhelming. Also I am an Australian! But I dunno I guess I just wanted to express that despite my general inclination to Nick Cave scepticism, there are a number of times I have found him incredible in the live arena.

To be a bit less bitchy: yeah I’m clearly making fun of dipshit centrists invoking nuuaannce as a reason to carry on passively endorsing the status quo (a de facto right wing position they might as well own)

Of course there are are always complexities involved, deciding that taking any kind of political stance is “ideological rigidity” because the real answer is always somewhere in the middle is actually a way of sidestepping these complexities — to put a finer point on it being “spectacularly incurious about the world” is literally the only way you end up broadcasting your big brained indecision about whether the fucking British monarchy is good or bad

I did in fact make this up and trusted the audience to infer the meaning from context, like you used to back before everyone stopped thinking

― michel goindry (wins), Tuesday, May 2, 2023 8:12 PM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

nuance is good though