The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

Authorities issued an arrest warrant for Andrew D. Lester, who was charged with felony assault and armed criminal action, one of which carries up to a life sentence if convicted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/04/17/ralph-yarl-shooting-kansas-city/

Yeah I know he was charged afterward. The prosecutor at least admitted the suspect's motives were racial.

"Stand Your Ground" laws are so so dangerous, they really do encourage people to just fucking shoot anyone who looks at them wrong. (And yes of course we all know who is likely to be given deference under these laws and who isn't.)

I had a really frustrating few minutes last night, our local county commission was debating a resolution calling for essentially a red flag law in Tennessee — which our useless governor tepidly endorsed last week but has not actually lifted a finger to make happen. I was there as a reporter but I got viscerally angry at some of the idiot misinformation from some of our commissioners. One tried to argue that "Well actually" guns aren't the leading cause of death for Americans under 18. Another trotted out the "states with tougher gun laws have more violence" line, which is provably, demonstrably, empirically untrue. I wrote an item today calling both of them out, for whatever good that does, but it's just offensive to me for elected officials to be so blithely unaware of the realities of the issue. So irresponsible. If you want to argue for more access to guns, you need to at least be honest that that almost inevitably means more gun deaths.

I think they probably are aware of these things, but are willfully misleading people because this is the outcome they wanted. The goal is to keep people living in fear, shut down public institutions, and to rule over everyone by outgunning them.

I mean ffs he shot the child when he was lying injured on the GROUND. there is no ground-standing there.

just the belief that one can do this under cover of law is enough to inspire such acts, even if the law doesn't eventually protect them.

we see how it played out in FL, it will continue to play out this way in all SYG states.

I think they probably are aware of these things, but are willfully misleading people because this is the outcome they wanted.

Sadly I don't think so. The lack of curiosity about things like "facts" and "data" is very much a hallmark. They don't need them, because they know in their bones that Guns Are Good and only good things come from guns (unless of course they fall into the hands of Bad People, especially ones who aren't white).

I had a sort of similar argument with a local lefty earlier this week, he was adamant that Tennessee Republicans know they're racist and their offense at being called racist is all a put-on. But that's not true. I talk to these people. They 100 percent truly and sincerely believe that they are definitely NOT racist. That's because their idea of what racism is is so cramped and narrow, granted, but they fervently believe it. They believe they are Good People, and obviously good people aren't racist, so therefore they're not racist. Same with guns — guns are good, therefore bad things that happen are not because of guns. There is no crack here for the light to get in, it's a closed belief system.

There is a crack in everything
that's how the right gets in

lol

btw here's what that Kansas City mayor said about Stand Your Ground:

“If Stand Your Ground really lets somebody just shoot somebody that rings a doorbell,” he said, “that put the life of every postal worker, every campaigner, every Amazon delivery person at risk in this country.”

in missouri i expect them to make it mandatory for postal workers, campaigners, and amazon delivery people to carry guns on the job to address this imbalance in power

I can buy that many people are simply stuck in a closed off ecosystem where they do not have the access or wherewithal to get factual information that would contradict their views, and maybe some of these low level politicians fall into that category as well, but the ecosystem itself did not come together by pure dumb luck, it's taken decades of directed effort to build this and the goals are very obvious: intimidation, domination, and the destruction of public institutions. There is no question in my mind that the push to funnel tax dollars to religious schools and homeschoolers while defunding public schools goes hand-in-hand with school shootings.

btw here's what that Kansas City mayor said about Stand Your Ground:

“If Stand Your Ground really lets somebody just shoot somebody that rings a doorbell,” he said, “that put the life of every postal worker, every campaigner, every Amazon delivery person at risk in this country.”

again, this is exactly the point, especially if those people happen to belong to any of the groups they do not like

I guarantee you there are plenty of Republican U.S. senators who are also legitimately ignorant about the negative consequences of guns. Knowing that "more guns = more deaths" and still just mindlessly promoting guns anyway is the kind of thing self-aware villains would do — villains who know they're being villains — and the vast majority of these people do not actually think they're villains. They think they're the good guys.

They think they are good guys because they are shaping the country in a Christian white nationalist image, and their policies have been extremely successful and effective in reaching that goal. They are well aware of the consequences, they simply do not see them as negative.

I think it's more a willful ignorance, same mentality people use to justify living insanely unhealthy lifestyles because they eat a salad now and then. any Republican U.S. senator who says anything bad about guns will not be a U.S. senator for long

...and again

A man in upstate New York was charged with murder on Monday in the killing of a woman who was in a car that mistakenly drove into his driveway, officials said.

The woman and the three friends she was with never got out of the car on Saturday night, Jeffrey J. Murphy, the Washington County sheriff, said at a news conference. They were turning around after realizing their error when the man, Kevin Monahan, 65, stepped out of his house, in Hebron, N.Y., and fired at least two shots at the car, the sheriff said.

Beyond the fact that many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion, the more basic assumption that does not get nearly enough examination is that if someone breaks into your home, they deserve to die. This is pretty much accepted as straight truth.

It's wild how so many crimes elevate to the standard of a death penalty case when the decision is left to the armed populace.

my cousin once lost an old friend (in Florida, and after Stand Your Ground was passed). the neighbor's kid was terrorizing his mother, slashing her tires, defacing her house, ringing her doorbell at like 3 am, etc constantly for months. the friend came over and told his mother he'd handle it. admittedly, did not make the best decisions - dressing in all black, carrying a camcorder, and entering the neighbor's yard to try and film the kid in the act. the father came outside with a shotgun and without warning, just blew him away. friend was unarmed. neighbor was never charged.

yeah ok strange people shouldn't be dressed in all back in your yard but doesn't there have to be some duty of danger? or does everybody think it's the wild wild west where literally everybody is armed and can draw a gun in 0.1 seconds and that if you don't act immediately they are going to cap you?

it's very much the latter

the caveat being that it is always worthwhile to ask which people get a pass for randomly shooting someone and which people are acceptable victims

Another terrible thing about SYG laws is that since the cases so often hinge on conflicting accounts of who did what first, they incentivize making sure you not only shoot but kill the other party. Leave no witnesses. Whoever survives gets to say it was self-defense.

many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion, the more basic assumption that does not get nearly enough examination is that if someone breaks into your home, they deserve to die

In Cold Blood sold millions of copies. When Richard Speck murdered eight student nurses Time magazine's cover story came complete with diagrams of the apartment, a minute-by-minute timeline, and pages full of lurid prose. The more frightening and irrational a home invasion is, the more the media burns it into the nation's brains, simply because it inspires irrational panic-fear.

Something similar happens with stories of animal attacks. People who spend little time in the wilderness vastly overestimate the likelihood they'll be attacked by a bear or a cougar, or bitten by a rattlesnake.

Gun manufacturers have learned that constantly stimulating those fears is like owning a gold mine that never gets exhausted.

and on and on we go

https://abc13.com/woodlands-elite-cheerleaders-shot-shooting-at-heb-in-elgin-texas-payton-washington-pedro-tello-rodriguez-jr-arrested/13150502/

many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion

I think this is a huge part of the problem, this fundamental misinformation, stoked by the usual suspects. I saw a survey once (or at least think I did, lol) that revealed conservatives (maybe everyone?) wildly overestimated the number of gay people in America at something like 25%, and did the same for other minorities (Blacks, Jews, etc.) to a crazy overinflated degree. If you're already paranoid and think "they" are out to get you, or "they" are out of control, and you think "they" are exponentially more in number than "they" actually are, then not only are you probably prone to be even more paranoid and afraid, you might be even more primed to protect/defend yourself from the promised/threatened/foretold inevitable. And what better way to do that than arming yourself for the inevitable day they come knocking at your door?

It's a perverse self-fulfilling prophecy potentiated by those that would stand to profit (both financially and politically). I saw something yesterday in one of the Jan. 6 cases where one of the defendants claimed he came armed to a protest because there were supposedly 1000 antifa en route by bus, which is fundamentally ridiculous ... unless you believe it.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/15/americans-misestimate-small-subgroups-population

That's the one, thanks!

Man I looked at this thread and thought "who the fuck on ILX would think we'd have to DEBATE this shit, even in 2007?".

Not surprised at the answer.

lol Manalishi/adultery really was one of the worst

many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion

just to add to josh's xp response, which is otm: even in the case of actual home invasion, carjacking, etc. -- take your pick of *potentially* violent crimes -- it is not remotely self-evident that the perpetrator is looking to cause bodily injury or kill another person. that's one of the (many) things that drives me nuts about this debate, the moving of the goal posts. like those of us who advocate for gun control shouldn't actually have to convince people that there is no threat of being the victim of crime. obv those threats are exaggerated and made a bogeyman to an absurd degree by the rhetoric on the other side, but even if they weren't it still wouldn't justify gun violence in the vast majority of circumstances. the rare case of actual home burglars or whatever are just looking to get your (presumably insured) stuff, not kill you.

That's exactly correct, for the most part they probably are trying to avoid the occupants altogether, and are probably not doing anything worthy of being murdered.

kind of incredible what an aggressive action door-knocking is now interpreted as.

so more about the 84 year old piece of shit who shot Ralph Yarl

Lester has told police he and the teen did not exchange words before he fired at him through a locked glass door.

Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN.

Lester thought Ralph was trying to break in to the home and was “scared to death” due to the boy’s size, according to the document.

and you let this guy go home a mere few hours into a 24 hour hold without charging him.

"boy's size" a p obvious dog whistle

Over coffee, Eisenhower took Warren by the arm and asked him to consider the perspective of white parents in the Deep South. “These are not bad people,” the president said. “All they are concerned about is to see that their sweet little girls are not required to sit in school alongside some big black bucks.”

kind of incredible what an aggressive action door-knocking is now interpreted as.

Over coffee, Eisenhower took Warren by the arm and asked him to consider the perspective of white parents in the Deep South. “These are not bad people,” the president said. “All they are concerned about is to see that their sweet little girls are not required to sit in school alongside some big black bucks.”

The infrequency of home invasion / hot prowl break ins which result in homicide, where homicide was part of the intent, is such that whenever it does happen it's national news. Like what happened in Idaho a few months ago with those college students, for example. That's not to diminish the nightmarish nature of such a scenario, but it's so damn rare. I think more valuable than stocking up on weaponry is just secure your home really well and don't make it an easy target.

However I guess having lived for a number of years in a couple different neighborhoods of Los Angeles which were heavy on the burglaries and having known people whose homes were broken into while they were there, I also understand the fear that can come from having such a thing happen.

tbf to Eisenhower we still don't know if that quote's apocryphal, for Warren hated his guts.

Yeah actual home invasions are very rare, and the vast majority of the ones that happen are people who know each other. (Domestic violence, people stealing pills or cash from grandma, etc.) Which are still bad obviously, but the risk from random people deciding to come to your specific home and break in with intent to do harm is so small that taking any precautions beyond locking your doors is a hyperbolic overreaction.

And burglars usually try to hit when nobody's home, though obviously sometimes it happens while people are. I've known people who it's happened to, but when they yelled the person(s) ran away.

🚨 The grandson of the man who shot Ralph Yarl blames the NRA:

"Ludwig said his grandfather had been immersed in 'a 24-hour news cycle of fear and paranoia.' 'And then the NRA pushing the ‘stand your ground’ stuff and that you have to defend your home.'"https://t.co/fCA2VCvnAn

— Peter Ambler (@PeterMAmbler) April 20, 2023

^^^

good

Fucking gun in some kid's backpack went off in a classroom in one of my sons' schools today. It didn't hit anybody but the classroom teacher was "grazed" by shrapnel or something. The school went into lockdown, security got the kid and arrested him (just assuming it's a "him"), and they dismissed everyone and sent them home early. My kid was unfazed — he was in a different part of the building, didn't hear the gunshot or anything — but christ alfuckingmighty.

what the FUCK

first of all, I'm glad your kid is alright, and I'm glad everybody else is mostly alright. but how is this bullshit acceptable? why are people supposed to be expected to live w/ this shit

It is so not acceptable, I'm so mad about it. Especially because earlier this week I had to sit through a goddamn county commission meeting where a group of local high school students was begging them to go on record supporting some version of a red-flag law or really anything at all to limit the flow of guns and they harrumphed a lot about "freedom" and "My family came to this great country 7 generations ago" and voted down the resolution 7-3. Goddammit.

jesus christ, I’m so sorry. that’s a nightmare

I'm so sorry, tips.