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You can't eat the bag, you can eat the document

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 13 April 2023 08:47 (one year ago) link

My main objection to the Daft Punk is gentrified Disco argument would be that I don't think you can seriously argue Disco hadn't already been fully gentrified by the time Daft Punk started making music.

I think that, along with Serge Gainsbourg, people can't be bothered to get into a debate on this basis. which is fine.

I dunno man, you really can't hear it in Gainsbourg? He singspeaks like a disillusioned aristocrat, deigning to bless us with his bon mots, contempt for the whole enterprise dripping from every line. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a different question, I think it rules, but I don't think it's an unfair assessment of his style.

Bringing Sinatra into this is I think paying more attention to his mythos than his recordings - he's been solidified in the popular imagination as this bitter lounge lizard but it doesn't really come through in his vocal performances at all. Dean Martin, maybe, though with him there's usually a playfulness that offsets that.

Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 13 April 2023 09:13 (one year ago) link

Think you have to take Gainsbourg as a whole life story, his early music is heavily influenced by Brassens and Boris Vian, his signature song in France even now might be La Javanaise from 1963, which is light, poetic, wistful. The late 60s / early 70s stuff people seem to know in the UK is more as you describe, but he had other modes throughout, the weariness of "Je suis venu te dire que je m'en vais" or the cynical sleaziness of "Love On The Beat" for example.

Camaraderie at Arms Length, Thursday, 13 April 2023 09:25 (one year ago) link

Not sure weary and cynical is that far from disillusioned and contemptuous tbh.

Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Thursday, 13 April 2023 09:31 (one year ago) link

Congrats, Left, for turning this thread from 'controversial' to 'nonsensical.'

retrofuturist cop slayer! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 13 April 2023 09:33 (one year ago) link

It was never a good thread tbh, its very concept encourages otherwise valuable posters to turn into 00's NME journalists.

Think you have to take Gainsbourg as a whole life story, his early music is heavily influenced by Brassens and Boris Vian, his signature song in France even now might be La Javanaise from 1963, which is light, poetic, wistful. The late 60s / early 70s stuff people seem to know in the UK is more as you describe, but he had other modes throughout, the weariness of "Je suis venu te dire que je m'en vais" or the cynical sleaziness of "Love On The Beat" for example.

I think that even though he delighted in shocking the establishment Gainsbourg himself had a lot of hang-ups around high culture and a profound sadness over not belonging to that world, unsurprising for a man of his time really. Yé Yé in particular was seen as a far less respectable thing than traditional chanson (which I'd agree "La Javanaise" fits into), tbh my wife is French and still reacts with bemusement that I see Françoise Hardy as anything but a kitschy artifact, and I think the sort of scornful, above it all pose Gainsbourg affected was in part self-defense regarding that.

Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 13 April 2023 09:45 (one year ago) link

the controversy is a little tepid these days (everyone either agrees or agrees to disagree on almost everything) so I consider that an improvement xp

your original display name is still visible (Left), Thursday, 13 April 2023 09:52 (one year ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro5Wvn4qI2c

there's this one weezer demo that sounds like cuomo is trying to rip off malkmus in the verse

ufo, Thursday, 13 April 2023 10:11 (one year ago) link

hating on Frank Sinatra is real challops

Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Thursday, 13 April 2023 13:13 (one year ago) link

Is that controversial?

Beatles in My Passway (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 13 April 2023 13:21 (one year ago) link

There are at least three Frank Sinatras, so it's not weird to hate at least one of them, while adoring at least one of the others.

Young skinny Frank, cool movie Frank, lost-years Frank, mob Frank, cranky bloated Frank, elder-statesman Frank, the imaginary ideal Frank who exists only in a cherry-picked memory, and a constructed Frank who never existed at all...

There is a great artist somewhere in there; there is a decidedly unpleasant person with contempt for the material; there is someone who genuinely loved the material and interacted with the arrangement in a unique way. There is also a singer who felt he had to try to copy the steez of more agreeable artists, and then hated himself for it.

So many Franks.

doja catharsis (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 13 April 2023 13:40 (one year ago) link

It's like trying to formulate a single overarching opinion about David Bowie or John Lennon. My question would be, "which?"

doja catharsis (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 13 April 2023 13:42 (one year ago) link

It's nonsensical because Sinatra is all about the immersive feeling on so many tracks, some of the major classics of the eras are palpable in their sad loneliness, practically cinematic.

omar little, Thursday, 13 April 2023 13:57 (one year ago) link

sounds like cuomo is trying to rip off malkmus in the verse

Holy moley - I would have believed that was actually a Malkmus demo (notwithstanding the shitty guitar playing) if you told me.

morrisp.fandom.com (morrisp), Thursday, 13 April 2023 14:14 (one year ago) link

Rivers and Malk are both equally good shredders. Super tasty players.

kurt schwitterz, Thursday, 13 April 2023 15:26 (one year ago) link

the chorus is still extremely cuomo though

ufo, Thursday, 13 April 2023 15:29 (one year ago) link

(admittedly I didn't make it to the chorus)

morrisp.fandom.com (morrisp), Thursday, 13 April 2023 15:39 (one year ago) link

ha that verse is so Malkmus

a (waterface), Thursday, 13 April 2023 17:59 (one year ago) link

Kind of like Sinatra, I think Malkmus also contains multitudes. There's the lazy tuneless drawling Malkmus, but there's also the earnest wistful Malkmus, and the ironic faux-cock-rock yelping Malkmus, and the just taking it straight Malkmus. The history of artless and naive vocals goes back probably to the earliest Folkways field recordings, but I guess its hard to define when the self-conscious and ironic element crept in.

o. nate, Friday, 14 April 2023 15:40 (one year ago) link

Ecstasy/You Made Me Realise/Glider/Tremolo EPs

>>>>>>>>>>

Isn't Anything/Loveless LPs

citation needed (Steve Shasta), Friday, 21 April 2023 21:44 (one year ago) link

...aaaand I forgot to include Feed Me With Your Kiss in the EPs, should be there.

citation needed (Steve Shasta), Friday, 21 April 2023 21:45 (one year ago) link

interacted with the arrangement in a unique way

This was what made his best material so great. He inhabited a song in a way that was uniquely his.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 21 April 2023 21:49 (one year ago) link

The You Made Me Realise EP was my introduction to My Bloody Valentine, it happened to be the first thing I found by them on Napster back in the day

Everything that I've heard by them since then seems less good to me than that EP

silverfish, Saturday, 22 April 2023 03:18 (one year ago) link

Isn't Anything and Tremolo would be my desert island picks

assert (matttkkkk), Saturday, 22 April 2023 03:24 (one year ago) link

Tanglewood Numbers is not only the best Silver Jews album, it’s one of the best indie rock albums of its decade… and would likely be even more highly regarded if it were someone’s debut, and not simply one more installment in a long discography.

morrisp.fandom.com (morrisp), Sunday, 23 April 2023 19:53 (one year ago) link

if it gets really really bad
if it ever gets really really bad
let's not kid ourselves
it gets really really bad

corrs unplugged, Monday, 24 April 2023 08:43 (one year ago) link

I can't pick a fave Jews album, but it's def a contender and I think of it as under rated. It was the first one I heard and I was initially put off by "Punks in the Beerlight." When "Animal Shapes" rolled around I perked up.

Cow_Art, Monday, 24 April 2023 11:31 (one year ago) link

Achtung Baby is a more ROCK lp than The Joshua Tree.

the pinefox, Monday, 24 April 2023 11:40 (one year ago) link

Zooropa is easily the best U2 album

Cow_Art, Monday, 24 April 2023 11:48 (one year ago) link

All U2 albums pretty much sound like U2 albums to me. The differences between them are not as interesting to me as the similarities.

Like yes I know there are differences in style but I frankly don't care.

when you wish upon a tsar (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 24 April 2023 11:56 (one year ago) link

All U2 albums pretty much sound like U2 albums to me.


This is part of the problem, of course

Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Monday, 24 April 2023 12:00 (one year ago) link

Zooropa as best U2 album ain't controversial anymore, I don't think?

the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 24 April 2023 12:07 (one year ago) link

No

The Lubitsch Touchscreen (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2023 12:37 (one year ago) link

I guess not? I assume that it is still seen as Achtung Baby's little brother. I don't think it ever got a proper reissue or anything.

But maybe it has become the U2 album for people that don't really like U2.

Cow_Art, Monday, 24 April 2023 13:21 (one year ago) link

I feel like it is the U2 record for people who like Achtung Baby but think that one is too obvious a choice. So not a challops at this point to say it is the best.

The Lubitsch Touchscreen (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2023 13:26 (one year ago) link

go to a U2 concert, interview 1000 fans at random I bet you won't get one who says Zooropa

I don't know who constitutes a "real" U2 fan these days, but I think of my sister, who gave me her copy of Zooropa, went to the The Joshua Tree album tour in 2017, and coughs slightly when I mention how much I love the album she gave away.

the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 24 April 2023 13:31 (one year ago) link

Is it the least Bono U2 album? Johnny Cash sings a song, Edge sings a song, Eno's vocals do a lot of the work in "Lemon." You have to go to Passengers to get farther from him, but it has "Elvis Ate America" which is such a heavy dose of Bono.

Cow_Art, Monday, 24 April 2023 13:36 (one year ago) link

My controversial (?) opinion is that Achtung was a transitional record, the usual U2 schtick (itself not a bad thing) but with some slightly-unusual (for U2) arrangements. Arguably, their "Night & Day" cover, which preceded Acthung by a year, took more risks -- it sounded to me far less like what one expected from U2 than anything on Achtung. And Zooropa was the much fuller realization of what Achtung hinted at.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 24 April 2023 13:38 (one year ago) link

Even if no actual concertgoing fans would say it's the best, there's probably a substantial number of ILX-type appreciators who would. (xp!)

The Lubitsch Touchscreen (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2023 13:39 (one year ago) link

My controversial (?) opinion is that Achtung was a transitional record, the usual U2 schtick (itself not a bad thing) but with some slightly-unusual (for U2) arrangements. Arguably, their "Night & Day" cover, which preceded Acthung by a year, took more risks -- it sounded to me far less like what one expected from U2 than anything on Achtung. And Zooropa was the much fuller realization of what Achtung hinted at.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat)

No matter what Bono says now, he and the band thought as much at the time (as quoted in Bill Flanagan's book).

the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 24 April 2023 13:55 (one year ago) link

how is, for example "Zooropa" the song more adventurous than "Zoo Station" other than feeling kind of half written?

The sampled vocals and radio effects, the leisurely opening crawl a la "Station to Station."

the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 24 April 2023 14:20 (one year ago) link

It contains fewer of the U2 signifiers/cliches that we generally associate with them. It's got that 2-minute burbling buildup, a sharp tempo shift, the arrangement is more spare/claustrophobic than "Zoo Station," and there's no obvious/anthemic chorus.

Or, more concisely, what Alfred said.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 24 April 2023 14:25 (one year ago) link

eh I guess

I'm listening to this now and it's a lot less out there than I remember. "Babyface" very standard issue stuff with some production touches, the charge being leveled against Achtung. the chorus is so Midwestern bar band.

I didn't expect a song as pop and sarcastic as "Babyface" on a U2 album either. The sequencing is excellent: from there it's a comfortable slide into the electro-inflected grooves of Side One.

the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 24 April 2023 14:27 (one year ago) link

uncle!

I've been called worse on Saturday nights.

the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 24 April 2023 14:30 (one year ago) link

It's a good call about 'night & day' - an unusual record for them, at the time.

And about ZOOROPA containing a bit less Bono Vox than usual.

the pinefox, Monday, 24 April 2023 14:31 (one year ago) link

Alfred otm re: the Zooropa sequencing. "Lemon" would be jarring as the opening (or even just the second) track, but by the time it arrives, we're ready.

"Stay" and "The First Time" are the only songs on Zooropa that could have conceivably appeared on an earlier U2 record -- with minor changes to the arrangements -- but they still sound perfectly at home here.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 24 April 2023 14:32 (one year ago) link


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