Post a controversial music opinion

Frank could phone it in like nobody else though, I love this record which is supposed to be his worst ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHfycHpzCgE

but an actually insane opinion like citing Frank Sinatra in this context just passes by unmentioned, pearls before swine

I guess Sinatra has a cool, casual singing style that contrasts with the belting the song out to people in the back-row style of the pre-microphone era, and you could maybe connect that to certain types of indie singing? But it's funny to be like 'maybe Frank Sinatra could have been an OK singer if he just put a little effort in'

The artist is a carrier bag the records are the shopping inside the bag. You can't eat the bag

Although the records are just other bags the tracks on the records are the shopping and who knows what will be where you didn't expect because you were too busy looking at the bag instead of inside it.

it's funny how a debatable but not-really-controversial opinion like 'Pavement sound like Weezer' will generate impassioned debate on this thread, but an actually insane opinion like citing Frank Sinatra in this context just passes by unmentioned, pearls before swine

Yes, let's talk about Tom Rapp's singing now.

You can't eat the bag, you can eat the document

My main objection to the Daft Punk is gentrified Disco argument would be that I don't think you can seriously argue Disco hadn't already been fully gentrified by the time Daft Punk started making music.

I think that, along with Serge Gainsbourg, people can't be bothered to get into a debate on this basis. which is fine.

I dunno man, you really can't hear it in Gainsbourg? He singspeaks like a disillusioned aristocrat, deigning to bless us with his bon mots, contempt for the whole enterprise dripping from every line. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a different question, I think it rules, but I don't think it's an unfair assessment of his style.

Bringing Sinatra into this is I think paying more attention to his mythos than his recordings - he's been solidified in the popular imagination as this bitter lounge lizard but it doesn't really come through in his vocal performances at all. Dean Martin, maybe, though with him there's usually a playfulness that offsets that.

Think you have to take Gainsbourg as a whole life story, his early music is heavily influenced by Brassens and Boris Vian, his signature song in France even now might be La Javanaise from 1963, which is light, poetic, wistful. The late 60s / early 70s stuff people seem to know in the UK is more as you describe, but he had other modes throughout, the weariness of "Je suis venu te dire que je m'en vais" or the cynical sleaziness of "Love On The Beat" for example.

Not sure weary and cynical is that far from disillusioned and contemptuous tbh.

Congrats, Left, for turning this thread from 'controversial' to 'nonsensical.'

It was never a good thread tbh, its very concept encourages otherwise valuable posters to turn into 00's NME journalists.

Think you have to take Gainsbourg as a whole life story, his early music is heavily influenced by Brassens and Boris Vian, his signature song in France even now might be La Javanaise from 1963, which is light, poetic, wistful. The late 60s / early 70s stuff people seem to know in the UK is more as you describe, but he had other modes throughout, the weariness of "Je suis venu te dire que je m'en vais" or the cynical sleaziness of "Love On The Beat" for example.

I think that even though he delighted in shocking the establishment Gainsbourg himself had a lot of hang-ups around high culture and a profound sadness over not belonging to that world, unsurprising for a man of his time really. Yé Yé in particular was seen as a far less respectable thing than traditional chanson (which I'd agree "La Javanaise" fits into), tbh my wife is French and still reacts with bemusement that I see Françoise Hardy as anything but a kitschy artifact, and I think the sort of scornful, above it all pose Gainsbourg affected was in part self-defense regarding that.

the controversy is a little tepid these days (everyone either agrees or agrees to disagree on almost everything) so I consider that an improvement xp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro5Wvn4qI2c

there's this one weezer demo that sounds like cuomo is trying to rip off malkmus in the verse

hating on Frank Sinatra is real challops

Is that controversial?

There are at least three Frank Sinatras, so it's not weird to hate at least one of them, while adoring at least one of the others.

Young skinny Frank, cool movie Frank, lost-years Frank, mob Frank, cranky bloated Frank, elder-statesman Frank, the imaginary ideal Frank who exists only in a cherry-picked memory, and a constructed Frank who never existed at all...

There is a great artist somewhere in there; there is a decidedly unpleasant person with contempt for the material; there is someone who genuinely loved the material and interacted with the arrangement in a unique way. There is also a singer who felt he had to try to copy the steez of more agreeable artists, and then hated himself for it.

So many Franks.

It's like trying to formulate a single overarching opinion about David Bowie or John Lennon. My question would be, "which?"

It's nonsensical because Sinatra is all about the immersive feeling on so many tracks, some of the major classics of the eras are palpable in their sad loneliness, practically cinematic.

sounds like cuomo is trying to rip off malkmus in the verse

Holy moley - I would have believed that was actually a Malkmus demo (notwithstanding the shitty guitar playing) if you told me.

Rivers and Malk are both equally good shredders. Super tasty players.

the chorus is still extremely cuomo though

(admittedly I didn't make it to the chorus)

ha that verse is so Malkmus

Kind of like Sinatra, I think Malkmus also contains multitudes. There's the lazy tuneless drawling Malkmus, but there's also the earnest wistful Malkmus, and the ironic faux-cock-rock yelping Malkmus, and the just taking it straight Malkmus. The history of artless and naive vocals goes back probably to the earliest Folkways field recordings, but I guess its hard to define when the self-conscious and ironic element crept in.

Ecstasy/You Made Me Realise/Glider/Tremolo EPs

>>>>>>>>>>

Isn't Anything/Loveless LPs

...aaaand I forgot to include Feed Me With Your Kiss in the EPs, should be there.

interacted with the arrangement in a unique way

This was what made his best material so great. He inhabited a song in a way that was uniquely his.

The You Made Me Realise EP was my introduction to My Bloody Valentine, it happened to be the first thing I found by them on Napster back in the day

Everything that I've heard by them since then seems less good to me than that EP

Isn't Anything and Tremolo would be my desert island picks

Tanglewood Numbers is not only the best Silver Jews album, it’s one of the best indie rock albums of its decade… and would likely be even more highly regarded if it were someone’s debut, and not simply one more installment in a long discography.

if it gets really really bad
if it ever gets really really bad
let's not kid ourselves
it gets really really bad

I can't pick a fave Jews album, but it's def a contender and I think of it as under rated. It was the first one I heard and I was initially put off by "Punks in the Beerlight." When "Animal Shapes" rolled around I perked up.

Achtung Baby is a more ROCK lp than The Joshua Tree.

Zooropa is easily the best U2 album

All U2 albums pretty much sound like U2 albums to me. The differences between them are not as interesting to me as the similarities.

Like yes I know there are differences in style but I frankly don't care.

All U2 albums pretty much sound like U2 albums to me.

Zooropa as best U2 album ain't controversial anymore, I don't think?

No

I guess not? I assume that it is still seen as Achtung Baby's little brother. I don't think it ever got a proper reissue or anything.

But maybe it has become the U2 album for people that don't really like U2.

I feel like it is the U2 record for people who like Achtung Baby but think that one is too obvious a choice. So not a challops at this point to say it is the best.

go to a U2 concert, interview 1000 fans at random I bet you won't get one who says Zooropa

I don't know who constitutes a "real" U2 fan these days, but I think of my sister, who gave me her copy of Zooropa, went to the The Joshua Tree album tour in 2017, and coughs slightly when I mention how much I love the album she gave away.

Is it the least Bono U2 album? Johnny Cash sings a song, Edge sings a song, Eno's vocals do a lot of the work in "Lemon." You have to go to Passengers to get farther from him, but it has "Elvis Ate America" which is such a heavy dose of Bono.

My controversial (?) opinion is that Achtung was a transitional record, the usual U2 schtick (itself not a bad thing) but with some slightly-unusual (for U2) arrangements. Arguably, their "Night & Day" cover, which preceded Acthung by a year, took more risks -- it sounded to me far less like what one expected from U2 than anything on Achtung. And Zooropa was the much fuller realization of what Achtung hinted at.

Even if no actual concertgoing fans would say it's the best, there's probably a substantial number of ILX-type appreciators who would. (xp!)

My controversial (?) opinion is that Achtung was a transitional record, the usual U2 schtick (itself not a bad thing) but with some slightly-unusual (for U2) arrangements. Arguably, their "Night & Day" cover, which preceded Acthung by a year, took more risks -- it sounded to me far less like what one expected from U2 than anything on Achtung. And Zooropa was the much fuller realization of what Achtung hinted at.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat)

No matter what Bono says now, he and the band thought as much at the time (as quoted in Bill Flanagan's book).

how is, for example "Zooropa" the song more adventurous than "Zoo Station" other than feeling kind of half written?

The sampled vocals and radio effects, the leisurely opening crawl a la "Station to Station."

It contains fewer of the U2 signifiers/cliches that we generally associate with them. It's got that 2-minute burbling buildup, a sharp tempo shift, the arrangement is more spare/claustrophobic than "Zoo Station," and there's no obvious/anthemic chorus.

Or, more concisely, what Alfred said.