Post a controversial music opinion

I've never heard Pavement but Sonic Youth are still a good listen.

that whole indie way of "singing" as if you don't care about the song and are above it all is such bullshit and I don't know why people put up with it for so long

I assume the trend towards overbearing earnestness in 00s indie was partly a reaction against this

Alive 2007's poor showing in the Daft Punk poll remains a mystery to me.

I get why people hate Pavement, but comparing them to Weezer feels completely bizarre to me. Beyond, yes, they are both made up of college educated white dudes playing guitar-based indie rock.

that whole indie way of "singing" as if you don't care about the song and are above it all is such bullshit and I don't know why people put up with it for so long

― your original display name is still visible (Left),

whew! Fortunately this doesn't describe Pavement. Malkmus was a romantic, whatever else he was.

that whole indie way of "singing" as if you don't care about the song and are above it all is such bullshit and I don't know why people put up with it for so long

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 18:19 (nine minutes ago) link

I never really bought into this interpretation of the vocal delivery as applied to Pavement. I hear it more in modern "indie" examples where it sounds like they're trying to sing without moving any facial muscles.

college educated white dudes

Cuomo not until later! (college-educated, that is)

I don't really buy that that particular way of singing was really that widespread, so much 90s indie was really emotive

And even some of it was low-key or not exuberant, much of that style was very much engaged with the emotions of the songs

Pavement were dated and unlistenable in their heyday, basically Weezer for people who refuse to admit they like Weezer

lol u know ilu but this is the rongest take. musically there's hardly any points of comparison between these two except the instrumentation.

the description left gives mostly makes me think of Serge Gainsbourg, the cult of whom looks very bad indeed in 2023 but I can't say I don't enjoy it when he does that

him too. another poorly aged musician with an obnoxious cult following who does this is frank sinatra

have to think the weezer comparisons come directly from "cut your hair"

maybe mr pavement has more nuance and feeling in his delivery than I remember I just had him in mind as representative of a certain tendency although he's far from the worst offender

makes me think of Cake but I think intoning your songs in a way that literally anyone could sing them is cool in its own way

I trace a lot of that style back to Cat Power, personally.

"flat, unaffected indie drawl"

birth of the flattened cool: the origins of the indie voice?

all french music is gay

L'amour physique e(s)t sans issue

Every time I compare Pavement to Weezer, people go overboard in telling me they sound nothing alike, so I go back and play as much of Slanted and Enchanted as I can stand followed by as much of the first Weezer album as I can and basically Weezer is more melodic but there isn’t this yawning gulf in musical style that people claim

Basically, most of the arguments read to me as “despite sounding the same, these bands sound nothing alike”

The Weezer album is mixed louder, I’ll give you that

weezer sounds like the cars meets Boston at or something.. pavement sound like the fall meets the grateful dead

i have passed over weezer and pavement cds in charity shops.
no regrets.
i know my limits.

I'd also add that although Slanted and Enchanted is a beloved Pavement album, it sounds substantially different than their subsequent albums.

First Pavement album is 3+ years before the first Weezer album. It's basically an 80s album, not a 90s album.

Former recorded by a weirdo prog-hippy in his home studio in Stockton, CA. Latter recorded at Electric Ladyland and produced by Rik Ocasek.

But sure, Pavement is Weezer for someone, something.

I can play that game: Weezer is Pavement for people that play Wheel of Fortune instead of Scrabble.

re: Daft Punk, given the recent history and its reception, that shit is thoroughly gentrified. just cuz it's chelsea doesn't mean it's chelsea.

I hear it more in modern "indie" examples where it sounds like they're trying to sing without moving any facial muscles

malkmus's detached affect is playful, doesn't feel like he's trying to be too cool to sing properly idk

all french music is gay

― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, April 12, 2023 3:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPMnjHVlj9k

I don't really care for the affectedly affectless indie voice, but in a world where every other popular singer does that poor wickle sad puppy voice, it's very much the lesser evil.

that whole indie way of "singing" as if you don't care about the song and are above it all is such bullshit and I don't know why people put up with it for so long

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 18:19 (nine minutes ago) link

him too. another poorly aged musician with an obnoxious cult following who does this is frank sinatra

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 19:59 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

it's funny how a debatable but not-really-controversial opinion like 'Pavement sound like Weezer' will generate impassioned debate on this thread, but an actually insane opinion like citing Frank Sinatra in this context just passes by unmentioned, pearls before swine

soccer mommy is cool but she just sounds depressed not above it all

frank sinatra sounds like he fucking hates the song at least a lot of the time

but an actually insane opinion like citing Frank Sinatra in this context just passes by unmentioned, pearls before swine

Frank could phone it in like nobody else though, I love this record which is supposed to be his worst ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHfycHpzCgE

but an actually insane opinion like citing Frank Sinatra in this context just passes by unmentioned, pearls before swine

I guess Sinatra has a cool, casual singing style that contrasts with the belting the song out to people in the back-row style of the pre-microphone era, and you could maybe connect that to certain types of indie singing? But it's funny to be like 'maybe Frank Sinatra could have been an OK singer if he just put a little effort in'

The artist is a carrier bag the records are the shopping inside the bag. You can't eat the bag

Although the records are just other bags the tracks on the records are the shopping and who knows what will be where you didn't expect because you were too busy looking at the bag instead of inside it.

it's funny how a debatable but not-really-controversial opinion like 'Pavement sound like Weezer' will generate impassioned debate on this thread, but an actually insane opinion like citing Frank Sinatra in this context just passes by unmentioned, pearls before swine

Yes, let's talk about Tom Rapp's singing now.

You can't eat the bag, you can eat the document

My main objection to the Daft Punk is gentrified Disco argument would be that I don't think you can seriously argue Disco hadn't already been fully gentrified by the time Daft Punk started making music.

I think that, along with Serge Gainsbourg, people can't be bothered to get into a debate on this basis. which is fine.

I dunno man, you really can't hear it in Gainsbourg? He singspeaks like a disillusioned aristocrat, deigning to bless us with his bon mots, contempt for the whole enterprise dripping from every line. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a different question, I think it rules, but I don't think it's an unfair assessment of his style.

Bringing Sinatra into this is I think paying more attention to his mythos than his recordings - he's been solidified in the popular imagination as this bitter lounge lizard but it doesn't really come through in his vocal performances at all. Dean Martin, maybe, though with him there's usually a playfulness that offsets that.

Think you have to take Gainsbourg as a whole life story, his early music is heavily influenced by Brassens and Boris Vian, his signature song in France even now might be La Javanaise from 1963, which is light, poetic, wistful. The late 60s / early 70s stuff people seem to know in the UK is more as you describe, but he had other modes throughout, the weariness of "Je suis venu te dire que je m'en vais" or the cynical sleaziness of "Love On The Beat" for example.

Not sure weary and cynical is that far from disillusioned and contemptuous tbh.

Congrats, Left, for turning this thread from 'controversial' to 'nonsensical.'

It was never a good thread tbh, its very concept encourages otherwise valuable posters to turn into 00's NME journalists.

Think you have to take Gainsbourg as a whole life story, his early music is heavily influenced by Brassens and Boris Vian, his signature song in France even now might be La Javanaise from 1963, which is light, poetic, wistful. The late 60s / early 70s stuff people seem to know in the UK is more as you describe, but he had other modes throughout, the weariness of "Je suis venu te dire que je m'en vais" or the cynical sleaziness of "Love On The Beat" for example.

I think that even though he delighted in shocking the establishment Gainsbourg himself had a lot of hang-ups around high culture and a profound sadness over not belonging to that world, unsurprising for a man of his time really. Yé Yé in particular was seen as a far less respectable thing than traditional chanson (which I'd agree "La Javanaise" fits into), tbh my wife is French and still reacts with bemusement that I see Françoise Hardy as anything but a kitschy artifact, and I think the sort of scornful, above it all pose Gainsbourg affected was in part self-defense regarding that.

the controversy is a little tepid these days (everyone either agrees or agrees to disagree on almost everything) so I consider that an improvement xp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro5Wvn4qI2c

there's this one weezer demo that sounds like cuomo is trying to rip off malkmus in the verse