What's with that constant cymbal tapping in jazz drumming?

If you want examples of music where I especially like the sound of the percussion and like the rhythmic approach, I would point to: most Arabic music (limiting it to styles from before the 80s) and most salsa, as well as most Sun Ra. There are some examples in rock, but not all that many really.

Granted, it was kind of a dumb question to ask, or to phrase the way I phrased it, but sometimes bluntly asking things that way can lead to some interesting responses. I was pretty impressed with a lot of the responses here.

I just don't like the sound of most jazz drumming (with the ride cymbal tapping as the ultimate annoyance) or relate to its rhythmic sense, at least when it gets into Elvin Jones territory. For color and timbre, I'll take a combination of congas, bongos, and timbales over the standard drum kit any day. Ditto for the typical Egyptian or Lebanese percussion combination (though I don't know the names of all of that).

I don't think it's right to just look at as the primitive ancestor of jazz drumming, because the style has continued to develop there for the last, oh, century or so (both on drumset and the street music bass drummer/snare drummer configuration). It's still jazz, but it's focused on the drums rather than the cymbals and it's dance music first and foremost. For modern New Orleans drumming, I'd check out:

Leroy Jones, Mo' Cream from the Crop (w/Shannon Powell)
Derek Shezbie, Spodie's Back (w/Herlin Riley et al)
Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Shake That Thing
New Birth Brass Band, D-Boy
Rebirth Brass Band, We Come to Party, Hot Venom

Rockist, given what you like (Latin music, etc.), I really think you'd like New Orleans brass bands .

Yes. Ole I didn't like, but it may have had more to do with other things in the music. I did try to listen to what you or someone pointed out about Afro-Blue, but I didn't get it. I do like some Coltrane, but often in spite of the drumming.

(I do like a fair amount of traditional African drumming that I've heard, though I didn't mention that hear, but that's kind of implied in my mention of salsa, so you are right to mention Africanicity.)

Basically, brass bands and trad bands can both do the traditional New Orleans jazz/gospel thing, but modern brass band music can also have a lot more clave and r&b in it.

Great moments on the ride cymbal

xpost:
Yeah, I tink you guys are right, I just wanted to discuss the triplet thing a little and copied that stuff from some web site. In any case, on my instrument I play mostly quarter notes.

That may be so if they're a little corny and riki-tiki, but I find that one of the most important things about the New Orleans feel is that its right inbetween straight 8ths and triplet-based swing.

Then it's usually one or two racks and a floor tom, and your standard snare. At least one ride cymbal, probably a crash too. I'd stay away from the Avedis Zildjians -- try to get a K ride maybe. Ride sound is VERY important in jazz drumming. Then again, for a starter kit, this might be out of your price range -- cymbals can be pricy.

Gretsch actually makes a great little starter jazz kit with an 18 or 20" and a snare that's actually made of wood for not too much money (maybe 5-600?) I think it's called the Catalina Club or something like that.

You could also go for vintage -- Ludwigs are great, or old Premier if you can find it. Old Gretsch drums are the best, but tend to be pricier. There are also japanese kits from the 60s/70s that sound passably good.

I've been using my beautiful little four piece kit with an 18" bass drum and two 20" rides for everything for a few years now, but I've gotten to the point where I don't really like using it for anything but jazz/bebop. Anything else (be it trad jazz or rock) needs a bigger, deeper kick drum with a sharper attack.

Pretty much, yeah. I go in and out of phases of trying to give mainstream jazz a chance. One reason I would bother to start this sort of thread is that I keep coming back to give jazz a chance, and then being put off by it. If I were to just give up on it completely, I probably would never make the types of comments I've made here, since it wouldn't matter any more. I'm still enjoying a very narrow sliver of contemporary a.g. stuff, and that keeps me happy for now. (I really wish Hopscotch records would respond to the check and e-mails I sent them about two months ago. Fuckin' bohemians.) Anyway, I haven't been testing the mainstream jazz waters much lately.

-- Oblivious Lad. (mjlazowsk...), May 6th, 2005.

I have an Avedis ride that I really like -- it's a 21" "Sweet Ride" -- but I generally find I don't like the sound of the newer A Zildjians, especially rides. It's really all about the individual cymbal and your individual tastes though. It's not like the A Zildjians are

It's also worth considering what kind of music you're going to use it for. If you're playing jazz, or anything relatively quiet, a nice complex, dark ride can really add a lot. But if you're playing loud rock it's just going to get lost in the mix anyway and maybe even cause problems.

anyone wanna buy some of the turk hi hats off me? ;)

My current fave ride is a Sabian AAX dry ride.

I haven't had time to read the whole thread so some one may have mentioned it but I think I have a partial answer to the original question.

Early records were acoustically recorded. The band would crowd into a room and a large horn would capture the sound directly into a mechanical cutting device. If you listen to popular music from this time you will notice an absence of drums or sudden noises as these would make the mechanical cutting needle jump out of its groove. As a result many bands would leave their drum kits at home and improvise the rhythm section on wooden blocks and tiny hand cymbals. There are stories of early jazz bands traveling to Europe with full kits and seeing the locals replicate their thin recorded drums and then of course... blowing them away.

In 1925 electric recording became feasible but it took a ridiculously long time for the modern drum sound to appear in most recordings. This was in part due to slow to adapt engineers and producers and also the depression, during which record sales fells from historic highs of 150 mill in 1929 to 15 million by 1933. (proving that out of the old adage of entertainment and the price of heroin, only one is recession proof.)

By then, I guess, the sound was pretty well ingrained.

So maybe the cymbal was a technical thing as much as much as a musical one?

Occurs to me that there are a few jazz drummers I really dig who have a more drum-centered, less ride-heavy approach -- Hamid Drake comes to mind, and Ed Blackwell.

for some reason this thread title is cracking me up

could be a pavlovian response to the seinfeldesque phrasing

at first I thought you meant the cymbal tapping was a response to seinfeldesque bass phrasing

I am not completely alone (but I don't really hate trap drums the way Fiol does, and I love timbales, which he sees as almost as bad as trap drums):

Let me preface my response by saying that one's likes and dislikes in music are quite similar to one's likes and dislikes when it comes to food. Some people can think of nothing better and more enjoyable than the taste and feel of eating a raw oyster, while others are horrified just at the thought of a fishy-tasting, phlem-like substance slithering down their throat. This is not to say that raw oysters are no good or that they are not a legitimate and valuable food source, it's simply a matter of taste. Having said this, let me say that I think one of the reasons why I got into Latin music in the first place, is because I detest the sound of trap drums or drum kit - especially when played by heavy-handed, tasteless percussionists who overplay. (The Brazilian trap drummers are the only ones who can make this obnoxious instrument sound appealing to me.) In fact, I'd like to know who invented this awful, one-man-band percussion concept, with the abrasive and irritating sound of the snare drum (a military drum that was designed to cut through gunfire) leading the charge, and the cymbals clinging and clanging away behind it at full tilt. I'd like to dance a guaguancó on his grave.

http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/archives/Interview58?Mogw6uXn;;12

lol

I'd like to know who invented this awful, one-man-band percussion concept

He can thank vaudeville.