Andrew Hickey’s History of Rock Music in 500 Songs podcast (& books) — discuss!

A fair criticism of this latest episode, which is also a fair criticism of the Haynes doc, is that it doesn’t give enough credit to the influence of free jazz/NYC loft jazz on the VU, even though it includes a Lou Reed quote saying he was inspired by Ornette Coleman and some other progressive jazz guys

Yeah, he had a college radio show, named for its theme song by Cecil Taylor---ilxor tylerw, of bootleg blog Doomandgloomfromthetomb and Aquarium Drunkard, mentions it while intro'ing a later Lou radio guest host marathon, still linked in here:

Had he not been a genius songwriter and musician, it’s easy to imagine Lou finding his calling as a disc jockey. And indeed, as an English major at Syracuse University in the early 60s, he hosted a radio show, Excursions On A Wobbly Rail, playing what was surely an adventurous blend of jazz, rock and doo wop for his fellow Oranges.

Alas, there are no known tapes of Lou’s college radio days. The closest we’ll probably get to it is this guest DJ stint on New York City’s WPIX in early 1979. Lou is in fine, fighting form here, peppering his commentary with scathing diatribes against Robert Christgau, Rolling Stone magazine, Jimmy Carter and NYC taxi drivers. He even takes some calls – witness the hilarious, surreal moment when Lou “Take No Prisoners” Reed admonishes a caller for using foul language. The music he plays is fantastic, too, with some classic doo wop, tracks from his then-unreleased The Bells LP, and a truly bizarro segue from Al Green to Nico. Lou even comes out in favor of disco.

And if that’s not enough, none other than John Cale pops up towards the end of the tape. Even though these dudes spent plenty of time at odds with one another over the years, they just sound like old buddies here. The whole thing closes out with a trio of killer live recordings (otherwise unreleased?) from Cale, featuring the Blue Oyster Cult’s Allen Lanier! What an embarrassment of riches.

And herrre's, Cecil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNL2CyHQMh4

Also, Ornette was on The Raven, and Reed later posted some other things they did, still around here and there---hope the regular Lou-Laurie-Zorn get-togethers find a good home on the Web, or maybe they already have?

A fair criticism of this latest episode, which is also a fair criticism of the Haynes doc, is that it doesn’t give enough credit to the influence of free jazz/NYC loft jazz on the VU, even though it includes a Lou Reed quote saying he was inspired by Ornette Coleman and some other progressive jazz guys

iirc, the Haynes film didn’t mention the new music (Cecil, Ornette, Dixon, Ayler) at all, not even in passing. I was surprised that Hickey didn’t talk more about it. I’ve been wondering if there’ll be an episode that talks about the new music as much as the one on “Eight Miles High” talked about bebop; I assumed/hoped it would be this episode.

Was thinking last night that it might just have added another hour which might have just been too much for a lot of people. Having a straight 3hrs 20 whatever was hard enough I would think.
But do want to hear what he would have to say about the New Thing. Still need to read about the Loft Scene too.

Need to hear what he says about the Downliner Sect. have loved that track and the lp it's on since I was like 14 and found the Charly lp version for like 60p on Walthamstow High St.

Since he's now in 1968 and rock is meeting jazz and things do wonder what else he will cover that will have the option to look into the freer elements of jazz. Is he going to look at crossovers with non Western music much deeper too.
Pretty great research and collation of information so do wonder what else he will look into. 70s and 80s ought to be good if he gets that far.

Ok I'm an hour and a half into this episode and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Lol @ the description of Cale's festival he organized after graduating (banging on the piano with his forearms until audience members tried to wheel it away, crawling after them and continuing the performance).

I've been listening sequentially, and I'm up to 1960 now. The level of detail is just right for me- really wonderful getting me to re-listen to all these 50 r'n'b compilations from the 80s that I bought in the 90s as vinyl was getting unloaded. The only context I had for a lot of that were the liner notes, which assumed a "you were there" knowledge. Hickey really makes the connections and fills in the gaps. So while I knew exactly how Sam Phillips connected things together, I only half understood Lieber and Stoller, and Johnny Otis was just a name I'd heard. Also, understanding how r'n'r took hold in Britain haltingly but steadily coalesced. Fascinating that Gene Vincents British TV appearances were what codified the black leather rocker look after he was out of the spotlight in the US.

I, too, find this podcast to be overwhelming in the amount of detail. I usually listening while running or dog walking or driving but I can never devote 100% of my attention and miss out on long stretches of info.

That said, he provides more detail than I really need in my life so it’s no big deal. I wish he didn’t spend quite so much time on the context/background stuff and spent more time on the song in question.

― tobo73, Wednesday, April 5, 2023 9:08 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

There are a lot of times where he'll say something like "To understand this song, we have to start with Person X. Person X was discovered by Person Y. Person Y worked for Label Z. Label Z was a competitor to Label A. Label A had big Song B." and that chain of connections would be totally lost on me because I was listening in the car and distracted for 10 seconds by a bad driver. I'm not advising anyone to stop listening to the podcast but definitely recommend getting the books and/or re-reading the transcripts. There's a ton of rich detail that I've internalized on review.

I do appreciate hearing the musical excerpts though.

xp The abundance of detail is one reason I can't get into listening -- I'm afraid I'll lose the thread and get frustrated because I missed some vital esoteric connection.

For even more obscure and detailed information, I recommend one of Hickey's favorite sources, Larry Birnbaum's Before Elvis: The Prehistory of Rock 'n' Roll. I've been reading it on and off for a few months and am still less than halfway through.

That book is intriguing but expensive. How long is it exactly?

461 pages including the notes and index, in font sizes that require bifocals

Ah, thanks. That shouldn’t be a problem in eformat.

I listen when doing dishes, not driving!

Here's a playlist inspired by listening, along with associated favorites of mine from the era and revivals.

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2w4TXIRBx0XqzFmujeyxrA?si=c9c3db9bac444c84

Since he's now in 1968 and rock is meeting jazz and things do wonder what else he will cover that will have the option to look into the freer elements of jazz. Is he going to look at crossovers with non Western music much deeper too.
Pretty great research and collation of information so do wonder what else he will look into. 70s and 80s ought to be good if he gets that far.

― Stevo, Thursday, April 6, 2023 9:10 AM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Along these lines, I'm wondering if Miles will get an episode. We're a couple years away from Bitches Brew, which certainly won't go unmentioned, but I wonder if Hickey will devote an episode to it (or something from In A Silent Way).

Hickey definitely seems to be a Coltrane fan, as he's shoehorned Trane into a number of episodes where I didn't expect him to turn up. I just relistened to the "I Was Made To Love Her" episode, and while I've loved Jamerson and Coltrane for decades, I never made the explicit "sheets of sound" connection between the two -- that Jamerson was essentially trying to do that on bass while (as Hickey put it) still playing something you could tap your foot to.

As a casual Coltrane fan, I was completely surprised about all his work with Ravi Shankar. The Eight Miles High episode was fantastic.

I was much more into the early avant garde history than the VU stuff, but it was cool to hear the commercial rock & roll/r&b soundalike tracks that Lou worked on early on (still not done with the episode obv, only two hours in).

How is the Otis Redding one?

Redding episode is great and (obviously) sad. But honestly — and I’m on my third listen to the whole series, gearing up for a fourth — there isn’t a single episode that either misses the mark or has any glaring (or not-so-glaring) omissions.

I’m on my third listen to the whole series, gearing up for a fourth

Wow!

I love Stax of course, but should listen if only because I go past the fateful lake every single day.

I was a little disappointed that the Otis episode was only the third one on Stax (counting “In The Midnight Hour”) but he’s done Patreon episodes on “Sweet Soul Music,” “Hold On, I’m Comin’,” and “Knock On Wood.” One thing I liked about the Otis episode was how it fleshed-out long-heard stories. That is, there’s far more to the story of how he ended up at Stax than “he was the driver for another band and insisted on singing at the end of the session” — very little (if any) of that was happenstance.

For more on Reed’s Pickwick years and how he went from staff songwriter to sometimes performer to touring band to Cale being in the band to the VU (an almost untold story up til now) I can highly recommend Ugly Things magazine issue #60 and the accompanying 2-part podcast, which goes into just about as much depth as possible on the subject.

One of my favourite details from the VU episode was Cale finding out the particular institute he was working at (I forget which) had 88 pianos, obviously the same number of keys on a single piano. His idea was to put each piano on a different boat, send them out onto a lake and record the sound as each boat sank into the water.

Budgeting might be a bit of a problem?

And 88 dead pianists. We mustn't let our conservative instincts stand in the way of the avant-garde!

I can highly recommend Ugly Things magazine issue #60 and the accompanying 2-part podcast, which goes into just about as much depth as possible on the subject.

Jeez, apparently I only listen to podcasts about the VU now despite not even being that big of a fan. :)

But I'm starting out with their episode about Gabor Szabo, which is great so far, and I've never gone deep on him.

Johnny Echols one is pretty good too. In fact the entire series has been good.

xpost speaking of Szabo, I posted this several years ago on Rolling Jazz, re an intriguing first glimpse ov him:

Looking for Charles Lloyd on Bandcamp, found Manhattan Stories (2014), comprised of
Two 1965 New York Concerts, Disc 1 recorded at Judson Hall & Disc 2 recorded at Slugs' Saloon.
A remarkable and previously unrecorded quartet featuring three jazz giants: guitarist Gábor Szabó, bassist Ron Carter and drummer Pete La Roca.
'It was a specific time and place,' Lloyd told Manhattan Stories annotator Don Heckman. 'We all felt like the boundaries were being dissolved and we could do or try anything. This is a music of freedom and wonder -- we were young and on the move.' Which is just what the sample track, "Sweet Georgia Brown," sounds like (17' 49", but quite spritely). Especially digging the interplay of guitar and sax, bass and cymbals, also succinct solos, esp. PLR's and Szabo's---the latter bright and brittle, autumn leaves, but def not drifting. What other Szabo should I check? Used to see his LPs...
https://charleslloyd.bandcamp.com/

I was delighted to learn in the Sounds of Silence episode that when Simon premiered the song in Greenwich Village folk clubs, the audience thought it was hilarious, and people started greeting each other with “hello darkness my old friend.”

and a lulz meme it remains!

Also Rick James's greeting, just about, to Charlie Murphy, according to Charlie Murphy on Chappelle Show (CM being dark-skinned as perceived by RJ) "Old friend" wasn't part of it though!

4.5 hour episode on Dark Star just landed. Holy shit!

yeah it's been a long time in gestation, understandably. quite the piece of work! supporters in patreon have had it for a week now so I've already heard it. can't say I am any more a fan of the dead than I was before, but it goes some fascinating places, they turn out to be very important in a number of ways, though "musical influence" isn't one of them.

Is it fitting that the longest show he's done so far is on a band that specialised in expansive stretching out? & filled with extra tidbits that i hope people aren't seeing as noodling.
I see he excerpts teh Eleven which has to be one of my all time favourite songs too.
Glad he is conscious of how long the episodes have been getting and hope taht si going to mean he cuts back a bit. Thought he was pretty ill recently so hope this keeps coming and he can keep up to to 500. Got to be a lifetime project like.
I was thinking it was a shame he'd got to 1969 cos it meant he was moving out of one of my favourite eras and hadn't covered absolutely everything in it. Though maybe he has in passing.
Think I need to read some of his books now.

yeah, he has been ill, mostly from the effort of putting this thing together. the grateful dead being fundamentally a live act, with songs developing over decades, and not really overlapping with the scenes / musicians he's covered- this breaks the chronological arc of the show, meaning he had to do a lot of extra research, just for the one episode. also his usual editor is ill, so he had to edit it himself. don't think we will see another episode of anything like this length for quite a while, he has sworn he won't anyway.

I think he's still in 1968 since "Dark Star" was originally on a single in April ''68

was wondering if this was single or lp version. So cool, maybe some more on the era then. & I do like the next few years just want loads on psych like.

yeah he is still at the start of 1968, though the year only takes up about 10 minutes of this episode

I think its the live version that is better known and possibly more significant though. But yeah good to know he's got the rest of the year to cover etc.
Is Astral Weeks or Gris Gris going to get a showing? Pentangle before Basket of light?

There are only two points in time where it makes sense to do a podcast episode on the Grateful Dead — late 1967 and early 1968, when the San Francisco scene they were part of was at its most culturally relevant, and 1988 when they had their only top ten hit and gained their largest audience. I can’t realistically leave them out of the story until 1988, so it has to be 1968. But the songs they are most remembered for are those they wrote between 1970 and 1972, and those songs are influenced by artists and events we haven’t yet covered in the podcast, who will be getting their own episodes in the future.  I can’t explain those things in this episode, because they need whole episodes of their own. I can’t not explain them without leaving out important context for the Grateful Dead.

he had to do a lot of extra research, just for the one episode.

And frustratingly, pretty much all the books on the Dead are either oral histories, or stuffed with half-remembered anecdotes that may or may not have happened, and can only be verified by cross-referencing other Dead books with the same half-remembered anecdotes misremembered slightly differently. So, for instance, when Hart says he was hanging out with Sonny Payne after a Count Basie show in 1967, it turns out Payne wasn’t in the Basie band at that time. And while every Dead book says Donna Jean sang on “Suspicious Minds” recorded at Muscle Shoals, Hickey went, “OK, that’s not right” — it was recorded at American in Memphis. Six weeks of that kind of research must have been (and sounds like it was) insanely trying. The Grateful Dead did not have a Mark Lewisohn.

Is Astral Weeks or Gris Gris going to get a showing? Pentangle before Basket of light?

One of the Patreon episodes is on “I Walk On Guilded Splinters.” I assume Astral Weeks will be covered — he already did a Them episode — but I don’t know if a song from it will get its own episode or if it’ll be covered in an episode about a later Van song. He didn’t do a Velvets episode until “White Light/White Heat” (which caused a bit of consternation among some of his fans; “IT’S 1967! WHERE’S THE VELVETS?!”) but it covered their entire career.

And the song is often a device for telling the larger story. The one on “San Francisco” isn’t two solid hours on Scott MacKenzie, but a way to tell the story of the focal point of the California scene shifting from LA to the Bay Area.

damn, i know what i'm doing next week. i still haven't gotten around to those oral history podcasts... i have "the making of vs", "the making of song cycle", and "the making of neu!" in my backlog. such a backlog.

The Dark Star episode was fascinating. Some wild stuff near the end about the Dead being pioneers of marketing to obsessive fans and the crossover to internet culture. Love me some Workingman’s Dead and American Beauty but that’s all I need. That wasn’t a problem listening to the episode since so many interesting sidetracks to the story.

The stuff about the impact of the Dead on internet culture is a good starting point for a totally different podcast.

Has Jesse Jarnow covered it elsewhere. I Think he talks about it in Heads and I know he does a regular Grateful Dead podcast which is probably archived in a few places. So may be worth looking around to see if there is anything up online by him since I think he was one of the sources for Hickey.

Yes there’s an episode of the Good Old Grateful Deadcast that’s all about the rise of the band wrt Silicon Valley stuff. It doesn’t get anywhere near Barlow and his weird internet politics tho.

ty both ...i should have guessed this topic has already been explored

new episode dropped.
Down to 3 hours, I mean what is happening pull the finger out.
Crossroads by Cream which seems odd chronology but I am blanking on how the last episode fell to be where it stood chronologically. I thought the first appearance of the song was on the first lp but may be confusing it with Spoonful.
I assume this is going to be another case of a song where he can look at improvisation but also the blues revival.
& what an ass Clapton would go on to be of course.

I can only repeat myself when talking about this podcast, because each episode warrants it: this is absolutely stunning.

He’s in 1968 now, and he tends to choose songs that were released as singles, as the live “Crossroads” was. So, chronologically, it makes sense. He doesn’t always introduce an artist with their first record (which is why Velvets fans were losing their shit when 1967 came and went without mention of them), but always covers everything that led up to the song (and most everything that happened after).

And as with many other episodes in this series, the song in question is primarily a jumping-off point to tell a much larger story: the final 40 minutes are about Robert Johnson, and how white historians (Mack McCormick chief among them) fought over his legacy, exploited and stole from his surviving relatives, and simply made up shit about Johnson in order to reinforce their ideas of what “the blues” “should” be.