Yep, it’s on the Bowie Divine Symmetry box. If I hadn’t heard it before, I woulda been pretty baffled.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 21:49 (eleven months ago) link
The podcasts are extraordinary documents but I've only listened to maybe 10 as I find them hard work. Listened to the VU one on a long walk and, yeah, what I said in the first sentence: extraordinary, but was flagging madly by the end. I have no idea how he navigates so much research. Like, where one episode ends and another begins, or how to decide what to include, what to leave out. I can see why he's feeling pretty 'brittle' tbh.
― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 21:53 (eleven months ago) link
Right. To me podcasts are like audiobooks. On the one hand I like to hear someone else speaking as a way to get something into my head. On the other hand it’s way too much information for me to retain coming through without the ability to constant vary the speed, to double back and reread or look ahead or any of the things that make physical books and to some extent ebooks such an amazing technology.
― Beatles in My Passway (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 6 April 2023 00:58 (eleven months ago) link
I really liked his Monkees book. I assume I will eventually buy these books but may get the one about The Kinks first.
― Beatles in My Passway (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 6 April 2023 01:02 (eleven months ago) link
I’ve been trying to listen to some of a Twin Peaks podcast by a guy whose writing I really like, and they’re interesting, but so insanely detailed… like he’ll spend almost 2 hrs. 15 mins. dissecting even one of the weaker eps. in the depths of S2. The folks who do these podcasts are so obsessive that unless you’re a fellow super-obsessive, I don’t know how you can have the stamina for them.
― hypnic jerk (morrisp), Thursday, 6 April 2023 01:13 (eleven months ago) link
I, too, find this podcast to be overwhelming in the amount of detail. I usually listening while running or dog walking or driving but I can never devote 100% of my attention and miss out on long stretches of info. That said, he provides more detail than I really need in my life so it’s no big deal. I wish he didn’t spend quite so much time on the context/background stuff and spent more time on the song in question.
― tobo73, Thursday, 6 April 2023 02:08 (eleven months ago) link
A fair criticism of this latest episode, which is also a fair criticism of the Haynes doc, is that it doesn’t give enough credit to the influence of free jazz/NYC loft jazz on the VU, even though it includes a Lou Reed quote saying he was inspired by Ornette Coleman and some other progressive jazz guys
― Josefa, Thursday, 6 April 2023 02:25 (eleven months ago) link
Yeah, he had a college radio show, named for its theme song by Cecil Taylor---ilxor tylerw, of bootleg blog Doomandgloomfromthetomb and Aquarium Drunkard, mentions it while intro'ing a later Lou radio guest host marathon, still linked in here:
Had he not been a genius songwriter and musician, it’s easy to imagine Lou finding his calling as a disc jockey. And indeed, as an English major at Syracuse University in the early 60s, he hosted a radio show, Excursions On A Wobbly Rail, playing what was surely an adventurous blend of jazz, rock and doo wop for his fellow Oranges.Alas, there are no known tapes of Lou’s college radio days. The closest we’ll probably get to it is this guest DJ stint on New York City’s WPIX in early 1979. Lou is in fine, fighting form here, peppering his commentary with scathing diatribes against Robert Christgau, Rolling Stone magazine, Jimmy Carter and NYC taxi drivers. He even takes some calls – witness the hilarious, surreal moment when Lou “Take No Prisoners” Reed admonishes a caller for using foul language. The music he plays is fantastic, too, with some classic doo wop, tracks from his then-unreleased The Bells LP, and a truly bizarro segue from Al Green to Nico. Lou even comes out in favor of disco.And if that’s not enough, none other than John Cale pops up towards the end of the tape. Even though these dudes spent plenty of time at odds with one another over the years, they just sound like old buddies here. The whole thing closes out with a trio of killer live recordings (otherwise unreleased?) from Cale, featuring the Blue Oyster Cult’s Allen Lanier! What an embarrassment of riches.
Alas, there are no known tapes of Lou’s college radio days. The closest we’ll probably get to it is this guest DJ stint on New York City’s WPIX in early 1979. Lou is in fine, fighting form here, peppering his commentary with scathing diatribes against Robert Christgau, Rolling Stone magazine, Jimmy Carter and NYC taxi drivers. He even takes some calls – witness the hilarious, surreal moment when Lou “Take No Prisoners” Reed admonishes a caller for using foul language. The music he plays is fantastic, too, with some classic doo wop, tracks from his then-unreleased The Bells LP, and a truly bizarro segue from Al Green to Nico. Lou even comes out in favor of disco.
And if that’s not enough, none other than John Cale pops up towards the end of the tape. Even though these dudes spent plenty of time at odds with one another over the years, they just sound like old buddies here. The whole thing closes out with a trio of killer live recordings (otherwise unreleased?) from Cale, featuring the Blue Oyster Cult’s Allen Lanier! What an embarrassment of riches.
And herrre's, Cecil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNL2CyHQMh4
― dow, Thursday, 6 April 2023 06:35 (eleven months ago) link
Also, Ornette was on The Raven, and Reed later posted some other things they did, still around here and there---hope the regular Lou-Laurie-Zorn get-togethers find a good home on the Web, or maybe they already have?
― dow, Thursday, 6 April 2023 06:42 (eleven months ago) link
A fair criticism of this latest episode, which is also a fair criticism of the Haynes doc, is that it doesn’t give enough credit to the influence of free jazz/NYC loft jazz on the VU, even though it includes a Lou Reed quote saying he was inspired by Ornette Coleman and some other progressive jazz guysiirc, the Haynes film didn’t mention the new music (Cecil, Ornette, Dixon, Ayler) at all, not even in passing. I was surprised that Hickey didn’t talk more about it. I’ve been wondering if there’ll be an episode that talks about the new music as much as the one on “Eight Miles High” talked about bebop; I assumed/hoped it would be this episode.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 6 April 2023 09:17 (eleven months ago) link
Was thinking last night that it might just have added another hour which might have just been too much for a lot of people. Having a straight 3hrs 20 whatever was hard enough I would think. But do want to hear what he would have to say about the New Thing. Still need to read about the Loft Scene too.
Need to hear what he says about the Downliner Sect. have loved that track and the lp it's on since I was like 14 and found the Charly lp version for like 60p on Walthamstow High St.
― Stevo, Thursday, 6 April 2023 10:13 (eleven months ago) link
Since he's now in 1968 and rock is meeting jazz and things do wonder what else he will cover that will have the option to look into the freer elements of jazz. Is he going to look at crossovers with non Western music much deeper too.Pretty great research and collation of information so do wonder what else he will look into. 70s and 80s ought to be good if he gets that far.
― Stevo, Thursday, 6 April 2023 13:10 (eleven months ago) link
Ok I'm an hour and a half into this episode and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Lol @ the description of Cale's festival he organized after graduating (banging on the piano with his forearms until audience members tried to wheel it away, crawling after them and continuing the performance).
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 6 April 2023 13:49 (eleven months ago) link
I've been listening sequentially, and I'm up to 1960 now. The level of detail is just right for me- really wonderful getting me to re-listen to all these 50 r'n'b compilations from the 80s that I bought in the 90s as vinyl was getting unloaded. The only context I had for a lot of that were the liner notes, which assumed a "you were there" knowledge. Hickey really makes the connections and fills in the gaps. So while I knew exactly how Sam Phillips connected things together, I only half understood Lieber and Stoller, and Johnny Otis was just a name I'd heard. Also, understanding how r'n'r took hold in Britain haltingly but steadily coalesced. Fascinating that Gene Vincents British TV appearances were what codified the black leather rocker look after he was out of the spotlight in the US.
― Terrycoth Baphomet (bendy), Thursday, 6 April 2023 14:23 (eleven months ago) link
I, too, find this podcast to be overwhelming in the amount of detail. I usually listening while running or dog walking or driving but I can never devote 100% of my attention and miss out on long stretches of info.That said, he provides more detail than I really need in my life so it’s no big deal. I wish he didn’t spend quite so much time on the context/background stuff and spent more time on the song in question.― tobo73, Wednesday, April 5, 2023 9:08 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
That said, he provides more detail than I really need in my life so it’s no big deal. I wish he didn’t spend quite so much time on the context/background stuff and spent more time on the song in question.
― tobo73, Wednesday, April 5, 2023 9:08 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
There are a lot of times where he'll say something like "To understand this song, we have to start with Person X. Person X was discovered by Person Y. Person Y worked for Label Z. Label Z was a competitor to Label A. Label A had big Song B." and that chain of connections would be totally lost on me because I was listening in the car and distracted for 10 seconds by a bad driver. I'm not advising anyone to stop listening to the podcast but definitely recommend getting the books and/or re-reading the transcripts. There's a ton of rich detail that I've internalized on review.
― Indexed, Thursday, 6 April 2023 14:40 (eleven months ago) link
I do appreciate hearing the musical excerpts though.
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 6 April 2023 14:49 (eleven months ago) link
xp The abundance of detail is one reason I can't get into listening -- I'm afraid I'll lose the thread and get frustrated because I missed some vital esoteric connection.
For even more obscure and detailed information, I recommend one of Hickey's favorite sources, Larry Birnbaum's Before Elvis: The Prehistory of Rock 'n' Roll. I've been reading it on and off for a few months and am still less than halfway through.
― Brad C., Thursday, 6 April 2023 15:02 (eleven months ago) link
That book is intriguing but expensive. How long is it exactly?
― Beatles in My Passway (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 6 April 2023 15:13 (eleven months ago) link
461 pages including the notes and index, in font sizes that require bifocals
― Brad C., Thursday, 6 April 2023 15:18 (eleven months ago) link
Ah, thanks. That shouldn’t be a problem in eformat.
― Beatles in My Passway (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 6 April 2023 15:41 (eleven months ago) link
I listen when doing dishes, not driving!
Here's a playlist inspired by listening, along with associated favorites of mine from the era and revivals.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2w4TXIRBx0XqzFmujeyxrA?si=c9c3db9bac444c84
― Terrycoth Baphomet (bendy), Thursday, 6 April 2023 15:54 (eleven months ago) link
― Stevo, Thursday, April 6, 2023 9:10 AM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
Along these lines, I'm wondering if Miles will get an episode. We're a couple years away from Bitches Brew, which certainly won't go unmentioned, but I wonder if Hickey will devote an episode to it (or something from In A Silent Way).
Hickey definitely seems to be a Coltrane fan, as he's shoehorned Trane into a number of episodes where I didn't expect him to turn up. I just relistened to the "I Was Made To Love Her" episode, and while I've loved Jamerson and Coltrane for decades, I never made the explicit "sheets of sound" connection between the two -- that Jamerson was essentially trying to do that on bass while (as Hickey put it) still playing something you could tap your foot to.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 6 April 2023 18:33 (eleven months ago) link
As a casual Coltrane fan, I was completely surprised about all his work with Ravi Shankar. The Eight Miles High episode was fantastic.
― bookmarkflaglink (Darin), Thursday, 6 April 2023 19:41 (eleven months ago) link
I was much more into the early avant garde history than the VU stuff, but it was cool to hear the commercial rock & roll/r&b soundalike tracks that Lou worked on early on (still not done with the episode obv, only two hours in).
How is the Otis Redding one?
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 6 April 2023 19:48 (eleven months ago) link
Redding episode is great and (obviously) sad. But honestly — and I’m on my third listen to the whole series, gearing up for a fourth — there isn’t a single episode that either misses the mark or has any glaring (or not-so-glaring) omissions.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 6 April 2023 20:16 (eleven months ago) link
I’m on my third listen to the whole series, gearing up for a fourth
Wow!
I love Stax of course, but should listen if only because I go past the fateful lake every single day.
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 6 April 2023 20:34 (eleven months ago) link
I was a little disappointed that the Otis episode was only the third one on Stax (counting “In The Midnight Hour”) but he’s done Patreon episodes on “Sweet Soul Music,” “Hold On, I’m Comin’,” and “Knock On Wood.” One thing I liked about the Otis episode was how it fleshed-out long-heard stories. That is, there’s far more to the story of how he ended up at Stax than “he was the driver for another band and insisted on singing at the end of the session” — very little (if any) of that was happenstance.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 6 April 2023 20:51 (eleven months ago) link
For more on Reed’s Pickwick years and how he went from staff songwriter to sometimes performer to touring band to Cale being in the band to the VU (an almost untold story up til now) I can highly recommend Ugly Things magazine issue #60 and the accompanying 2-part podcast, which goes into just about as much depth as possible on the subject.
― The land of dreams and endless remorse (hardcore dilettante), Friday, 7 April 2023 00:46 (eleven months ago) link
One of my favourite details from the VU episode was Cale finding out the particular institute he was working at (I forget which) had 88 pianos, obviously the same number of keys on a single piano. His idea was to put each piano on a different boat, send them out onto a lake and record the sound as each boat sank into the water.
― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Friday, 7 April 2023 09:27 (eleven months ago) link
Budgeting might be a bit of a problem?
― Stevo, Friday, 7 April 2023 09:41 (eleven months ago) link
And 88 dead pianists. We mustn't let our conservative instincts stand in the way of the avant-garde!
― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Friday, 7 April 2023 09:44 (eleven months ago) link
I can highly recommend Ugly Things magazine issue #60 and the accompanying 2-part podcast, which goes into just about as much depth as possible on the subject.
Jeez, apparently I only listen to podcasts about the VU now despite not even being that big of a fan. :)
But I'm starting out with their episode about Gabor Szabo, which is great so far, and I've never gone deep on him.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 7 April 2023 14:44 (eleven months ago) link
Johnny Echols one is pretty good too. In fact the entire series has been good.
― Stevo, Friday, 7 April 2023 14:55 (eleven months ago) link
xpost speaking of Szabo, I posted this several years ago on Rolling Jazz, re an intriguing first glimpse ov him:
Looking for Charles Lloyd on Bandcamp, found Manhattan Stories (2014), comprised ofTwo 1965 New York Concerts, Disc 1 recorded at Judson Hall & Disc 2 recorded at Slugs' Saloon.A remarkable and previously unrecorded quartet featuring three jazz giants: guitarist Gábor Szabó, bassist Ron Carter and drummer Pete La Roca.'It was a specific time and place,' Lloyd told Manhattan Stories annotator Don Heckman. 'We all felt like the boundaries were being dissolved and we could do or try anything. This is a music of freedom and wonder -- we were young and on the move.' Which is just what the sample track, "Sweet Georgia Brown," sounds like (17' 49", but quite spritely). Especially digging the interplay of guitar and sax, bass and cymbals, also succinct solos, esp. PLR's and Szabo's---the latter bright and brittle, autumn leaves, but def not drifting. What other Szabo should I check? Used to see his LPs...https://charleslloyd.bandcamp.com/
― dow, Friday, 7 April 2023 16:20 (eleven months ago) link
I was delighted to learn in the Sounds of Silence episode that when Simon premiered the song in Greenwich Village folk clubs, the audience thought it was hilarious, and people started greeting each other with “hello darkness my old friend.”
― JoeStork, Friday, 7 April 2023 17:26 (eleven months ago) link
and a lulz meme it remains!
― Terrycoth Baphomet (bendy), Friday, 7 April 2023 17:38 (eleven months ago) link
Also Rick James's greeting, just about, to Charlie Murphy, according to Charlie Murphy on Chappelle Show (CM being dark-skinned as perceived by RJ) "Old friend" wasn't part of it though!
― dow, Friday, 7 April 2023 18:35 (eleven months ago) link
4.5 hour episode on Dark Star just landed. Holy shit!
― The land of dreams and endless remorse (hardcore dilettante), Saturday, 20 May 2023 04:33 (ten months ago) link
yeah it's been a long time in gestation, understandably. quite the piece of work! supporters in patreon have had it for a week now so I've already heard it. can't say I am any more a fan of the dead than I was before, but it goes some fascinating places, they turn out to be very important in a number of ways, though "musical influence" isn't one of them.
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 May 2023 06:38 (ten months ago) link
Is it fitting that the longest show he's done so far is on a band that specialised in expansive stretching out? & filled with extra tidbits that i hope people aren't seeing as noodling.I see he excerpts teh Eleven which has to be one of my all time favourite songs too.Glad he is conscious of how long the episodes have been getting and hope taht si going to mean he cuts back a bit. Thought he was pretty ill recently so hope this keeps coming and he can keep up to to 500. Got to be a lifetime project like.I was thinking it was a shame he'd got to 1969 cos it meant he was moving out of one of my favourite eras and hadn't covered absolutely everything in it. Though maybe he has in passing.Think I need to read some of his books now.
― Stevo, Saturday, 20 May 2023 10:00 (ten months ago) link
yeah, he has been ill, mostly from the effort of putting this thing together. the grateful dead being fundamentally a live act, with songs developing over decades, and not really overlapping with the scenes / musicians he's covered- this breaks the chronological arc of the show, meaning he had to do a lot of extra research, just for the one episode. also his usual editor is ill, so he had to edit it himself. don't think we will see another episode of anything like this length for quite a while, he has sworn he won't anyway.
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 May 2023 11:04 (ten months ago) link
I think he's still in 1968 since "Dark Star" was originally on a single in April ''68
― Josefa, Saturday, 20 May 2023 12:21 (ten months ago) link
was wondering if this was single or lp version. So cool, maybe some more on the era then. & I do like the next few years just want loads on psych like.
― Stevo, Saturday, 20 May 2023 12:35 (ten months ago) link
yeah he is still at the start of 1968, though the year only takes up about 10 minutes of this episode
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 May 2023 12:50 (ten months ago) link
I think its the live version that is better known and possibly more significant though. But yeah good to know he's got the rest of the year to cover etc.Is Astral Weeks or Gris Gris going to get a showing? Pentangle before Basket of light?
― Stevo, Saturday, 20 May 2023 12:55 (ten months ago) link
There are only two points in time where it makes sense to do a podcast episode on the Grateful Dead — late 1967 and early 1968, when the San Francisco scene they were part of was at its most culturally relevant, and 1988 when they had their only top ten hit and gained their largest audience. I can’t realistically leave them out of the story until 1988, so it has to be 1968. But the songs they are most remembered for are those they wrote between 1970 and 1972, and those songs are influenced by artists and events we haven’t yet covered in the podcast, who will be getting their own episodes in the future. I can’t explain those things in this episode, because they need whole episodes of their own. I can’t not explain them without leaving out important context for the Grateful Dead.
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 May 2023 13:00 (ten months ago) link
he had to do a lot of extra research, just for the one episode.And frustratingly, pretty much all the books on the Dead are either oral histories, or stuffed with half-remembered anecdotes that may or may not have happened, and can only be verified by cross-referencing other Dead books with the same half-remembered anecdotes misremembered slightly differently. So, for instance, when Hart says he was hanging out with Sonny Payne after a Count Basie show in 1967, it turns out Payne wasn’t in the Basie band at that time. And while every Dead book says Donna Jean sang on “Suspicious Minds” recorded at Muscle Shoals, Hickey went, “OK, that’s not right” — it was recorded at American in Memphis. Six weeks of that kind of research must have been (and sounds like it was) insanely trying. The Grateful Dead did not have a Mark Lewisohn.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Saturday, 20 May 2023 13:40 (ten months ago) link
Is Astral Weeks or Gris Gris going to get a showing? Pentangle before Basket of light?One of the Patreon episodes is on “I Walk On Guilded Splinters.” I assume Astral Weeks will be covered — he already did a Them episode — but I don’t know if a song from it will get its own episode or if it’ll be covered in an episode about a later Van song. He didn’t do a Velvets episode until “White Light/White Heat” (which caused a bit of consternation among some of his fans; “IT’S 1967! WHERE’S THE VELVETS?!”) but it covered their entire career.And the song is often a device for telling the larger story. The one on “San Francisco” isn’t two solid hours on Scott MacKenzie, but a way to tell the story of the focal point of the California scene shifting from LA to the Bay Area.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Saturday, 20 May 2023 13:47 (ten months ago) link
damn, i know what i'm doing next week. i still haven't gotten around to those oral history podcasts... i have "the making of vs", "the making of song cycle", and "the making of neu!" in my backlog. such a backlog.
― Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 20 May 2023 17:46 (ten months ago) link
The Dark Star episode was fascinating. Some wild stuff near the end about the Dead being pioneers of marketing to obsessive fans and the crossover to internet culture. Love me some Workingman’s Dead and American Beauty but that’s all I need. That wasn’t a problem listening to the episode since so many interesting sidetracks to the story.
― that's not my post, Monday, 5 June 2023 03:06 (nine months ago) link