Reveal Your Uncool Conservative Beliefs Here

I don't understand UK politics

at some base level we're just talking about stronger people exploiting weaker people, with "strength" and "weakness" determined largely by economic status. And that's a tendency that far, far predates the industrial world that birthed Marxism, right?

otm

I don't understand UK politics

Don't see how that's conservative but I'm willing to hear the case.

As in, America is way more conservative than the UK

Ah. Just about, I guess, but the UK is catching up quickly and is insanely conservative compared to most of Europe. UKILX posters v much not representative, lol.

At least the US has legal weed and depending on which state you're in you might not be burned at the stake for being trans.

some of the US has better weather ...

I like how Mr. Bean gets presented as this aloof little dumb guy when in reality he's a massive dick to everyone he comes across. maybe I just don't get the UK mentality

is Mr. Bean related to Bosom Manor?

Mr Bean easily the most successful British cultural export within my lifetime, beloved around the globe, everyone loves a massive dick. lest we forget this recent international incident:

http://news.sky.com/story/next-time-send-the-real-mr-bean-the-bizarre-feud-between-zimbabwe-and-pakistan-surrounding-t20-world-cup-12732125

I prefer the older, less problematic British entertainment like Benny Hill

Mr Bean easily the most successful British cultural export ... everyone loves a massive dick

TIL

I don't understand UK politics

That's OK, I don't understand US politics.

i don't think those of us that live here do either

after listening to some deranged republican congresswoman railing against Tik Tok earlier I'd say US politics can be the politics of envy sometimes

Envy, fear, anger and resentment.

New board description?

90s Napalm Death album

An unpopular view that I increasingly hold is:

"I can't be anti-X, some of my best friends are X" is a statement that is automatically ridiculed, at best. But actually this statement is a natural and intuitive thing for anyone to say, if the second half of it is true.

I think the formulation's extremely bad reputation must come from it being so often used when it is not true. If Donald Trump is accused of racism and says "They say that about me, but some of my best friends are black", thinking of the time he had one black advisor - then this response is false.

But if someone is accused of homophobia and immediately thinks: "Wait a minute, my two closest confidants are gay, I'm giving a speech at a lesbian wedding next month, I work with an almost all gay team in my job at the LGBT bookshop, and my wife volunteers at the local gay LGBT archive" -- then that person may, in fact, have quite good reason to be puzzled by the accusation.

i rather think the issue is more likely to be the first half of the statement tbf

Bigotry does not confine itself to open hatred, it is perfectly possible to have amiable relations with members of a group while still holding prejudiced views against that group. Hell, it's possible to be in a group and hold those views about it!

Every decent person agrees that using slurs is racist. It's evil, let us say, and directed at a person.

Most decent people will not see how housing and immigration policy are racist. They're abstractions, not directed at a neighbor, a child, or, worse, a friend.

xpost yeah, that's where the "you're one of the GOOD ones" trope comes from

it does seem true that every person who is adamant that undocumented immigrants should be deported and forced to "do it the right way" cannot name a single person they think should be deported

Grand National protesters should be shot

Would make a change from the horses being shot.

I dunno if this is "conservative," but I still believe that most, if not all, people are capable of redemption.

Yet to meet a conservative who believes that tbh

conservatism seems to be very into the idea of a hard division between the worthy and the worthless

Re: capitalism and etc, what many radicals are bemoaning is quite obviously the enclosure of the commons and the basic structures of primitive accumulation, which I dunno, I think most reasonable people are not into?

Marx didn’t think pre-capitalist life was better than capitalism. He thought capitalism was a stage of development on the way to communism.

Not every radical is a marxist! That being said, a quick google reveals Marx wrote directly about the enclosure of the commons and his take wasn't "this is a positive step towards communism".

at some base level we're just talking about stronger people exploiting weaker people, with "strength" and "weakness" determined largely by economic status. And that's a tendency that far, far predates the industrial world that birthed Marxism, right?

otm

― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

That isn't really the case. You can be a Marxist without having read much Marx or theory, but capitalism driving the world to it's end in ecological catastrophe can't be explained merely by weak Vs strong.

I think the issue with that statement is you can sub in all sorts of things for "the industrial world" - stronger people exploiting weaker people predates monarchy, the enslavement of African peoples by European colonizers, fascism...all still true,right? And you could make the case that the end of those things merely paved the way for new forms of exploitation, but I think it's inarguable that ppl are better off without them. People tend to assume this messianic attitude...I'm under no illusions that a society without capitalism would be a perfect one. It might just be a little bit less miserable is all!

Marx didn’t think pre-capitalist life was better than capitalism. He thought capitalism was a stage of development on the way to communism.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, April 16, 2023 11:39 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

he thought it was a painful historical epoch to live through for most people, but a necessary one because it laid bare the exploitative nature of social relations. previously, these were harder to perceive, in his reading, because they were seen as natural, traditional, and stable.

i think his analysis of capitalism is correct. it is a system where value is produced by labor, but laborers do not reap the profits of their labor. it is also a system that demands constant growth and so it tramples all over any attempt to restrain it for ecological, humanitarian, or other reasons. i also agree with his historical argument, that the capitalism gave human subjects a different kind of understanding of themselves in relation to history. suddenly, the social order appeared as something that could be changed fundamentally and not just at the margins. this seems true enough.

what i don't necessarily agree with is his vision of the road to communism, which he outlines in the manifesto, not in capital or anywhere else to my knowledge. this part:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

to me this seems like the program of forced collectivization stalin instituted in the soviet union. others, like pol pot and mao, did similar things with similar results. there was a period of mass suffering and death as the society shifted from an agricultural economy to an industrial one under central planning.

And you could make the case that the end of those things merely paved the way for new forms of exploitation, but I think it's inarguable that ppl are better off without them. People tend to assume this messianic attitude...I'm under no illusions that a society without capitalism would be a perfect one. It might just be a little bit less miserable is all!

Agreed! ... though they could end up being more miserable, idk, or less miserable in some ways, more miserable in other ways ... I think I have trouble with the premise that humanity would stop coming up with new forms of exploitation ... not that I'm arguing that we are currently at the least misery possible and it's all downhill from here ...

I dunno if this is "conservative," but I still believe that most, if not all, people are capable of redemption.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, April 15, 2023 12:07 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yet to meet a conservative who believes that tbh

― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, April 15, 2023 1:20 PM (three days ago)

I have actually tbh -- though they can still believe this and be a cheerleader for the Carceral state at the same time ... achieve redemption while serving a life sentence in a Supermax for-profit prison ...

"he can be redeemed...through Christ"

People tend to assume this messianic attitude...I'm under no illusions that a society without capitalism would be a perfect one. It might just be a little bit less miserable is all!

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 18 April 2023 bookmarkflaglink

I've been guilty of thinking a lot of problems will go away if money was abolished and you'd run society in a different way...I think it will be better. Anyway, I'd like it worked through, thanks!

Lots of problems def would go away, others might spring up, worth a try I say.

Boots Riley of The Coup once said something like (I'm majorly paraphrasing and probably butchering): "Communism will not be perfect and will have its problems but at least at its heart has the common good of the people as its goal".

which is why I'd prefer it to the glut we have now

it's weird people identifying capitalism as evil don't think removing it will be a panacea

I didn't really have in mind the Handmaid's Tale version of redemption.

communist countries have money btw

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

“everyone has to barter now” notable absent from this list

Nobody's perfect xp

Death Row is the label that redistributes wealth to me
Unfadeable so please don't try to fade me

Boots Riley of The Coup once said something like (I'm majorly paraphrasing and probably butchering): "Communism will not be perfect and will have its problems but at least at its heart has the common good of the people as its goal".

which is why I'd prefer it to the glut we have now

― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Wednesday, April 19, 2023 6:28 AM (yesterday)

he's said stuff along those lines many times, so it's highly likely you aren't butchering anything ... i remember him giving a 15-30 minute rallying speech on a similar topic at Occupy Oakland before thousands marched and shut down the Port for part of a day ... it didn't really seem like it took that much to shut down the Port tbh, the dockworkers were in solidarity and the bosses were like, "fine, take a day" idk

tbh The Coup's Steal This Album formed a lot of my (still held) political beliefs