Come Listen to The Entire Wayne Shorter Discography with Man Alive

enjoying second genesis but not as much as introducing

this thread is great but also frustrating because i love this stuff but sometimes i don't have the musical vocabulary to properly talk about it

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, March 11, 2023 3:53 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Fun side bar: the records the Quintet made pre-Shorter with George Coleman and Sam Rivers (!!) in the tenor role that Shorter took over

He also played on Lee Morgan's amazing Search for the New Land in 1964, with Herbie Hancock, Grant Green, Reggie Workman, and Billy Higgins.

That's a great record, but tbh on the title track it drives me crazy how they repeat that rubato section with every soloist, it gets too predictable and feels like it takes forever (and becomes almost a little comical when they drop into the groove every time).

I seem to remember Miles said something about how George Coleman solos were "too perfect" (which I guess implied lack of risk taking). Forgot Sam Rivers also had a stint - I was just listening to Fuschia Swing Song the other day, which sort of feels like a Shorter cousin. Shorter and Rivers also both played on Tony Williams' Spring, a record I love.

3. [Horrible 1960s Album Titles Like] Wayning Moments
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Wayning_Moments.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Freddie Hubbard – trumpet
Eddie Higgins – piano
Jymie Merritt – double-bass
Marshall Thompson – drums

Figured I might as well officially start this one off at least. It was at first my least favorite of the pre-Blue Note 3 but it's grown on me. Freddie Hubbard's work is v nice here and I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads. Rhythm section is fine, nothing to write home about. Marshall Thomspon is boring on drums. Not really familiar with Eddie Higgins piano work, sounds fine here - looks like he recorded a bunch with Marshall Thompson, so maybe they came as a package. Neither of them have anything in their sideman work that rings a bell for me.

Black Orpheus with a swing feel kind of falls flat for me. It almost works in a noirish sort of way, but not quite. I like the title track and Devil's Island best.

Jymie Merritt has a nice big sound here, is of course v recognizable from his work with the Messengers, and also I had forgotten he's on another record I love, Max Roach's Drums Unlimited

Oh, just realized Merritt wrote Nommo. Such a cool tune.

I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads.

Love (as the listener) the feeling of sitting between them in the first minute of "Devil's Island," with each one far left/right channel during those harmonies.

Totally agree about the swung version of Black Orpheus, weird decision and I don't think it works. And does anyone else hear 'Wayning Moments' as a riff on 'All Blues'?

Can't wait until this thread hits the '80s period, even if that's in 2024. ;)

Definitely heard "All Blues" in that.

After this I might have to veer into the complete Joe Chambers discography

Wayning Moments is probably my favorite of the first three albums, although I can’t really articulate why. I think maybe Shorter’s playing sounds more decisive here? He seemed a bit hesitant on Second Genesis. I agree the stereo splitting of Shorter and Hubbard’s harmonies is really nice. Merritt’s bass is big and swinging throughout. I wish he had a chance to solo somewhere along the way, but he does maintain a strong presence in the mix and keeps things moving. The drums and piano just kinda do their thing without really standing out, but that’s fine. They’re solid. One small complaint is the arrangements can be predictable in that it’s really just Shorter and Hubbard trading solos over and over in a similar order in each song. And the band doesn’t interact much - everyone pretty much stays in their lane. I would’ve loved a few clashes. Overall, though, I like the album. It’s been neat to start this thread at the beginning of Shorter’s career as a leader. I’ve been learning a lot from everyone’s comments.

Alright here goes.

4. Night Dreamer 1964 Blue Note 1964

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Night_Dreamer.jpg
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Lee Morgan – trumpet
McCoy Tyner – piano
Reggie Workman – bass
Elvin Jones – drums

Although I was generally pretty familiar with his Blue Note material at least through SuperNova, there are certain albums I've spent more vs less time with, and this one is definitely on the less list, and it's been a pleasure to revisit and really dig into.

A few people have said what a leap it is, and I totally agree, in every sense -- compositionally, sonically, improvisationally, band interplay, even the cover art. This is kind of an archetypal early to mid 60s Blue Note record. From the very start it almost has the feeling of someone who went off to live on a mountain for a couple of years to develop themselves and finally came down changed.

The tile track is gorgeous, strong, well-constructed. My kids heard it and said the melody reminded them a little of Ode to Joy, although of course it does the very Wayne Shorter thing of taking a fairly simple melodic/harmonic idea to start with but then taking a sharp left turn.

Wayne opens his solo on Night Dreamer much more confidently than he played on the prior records. I almost think of a shofar blast or someone shouting a sermon. He has ideas, he plays with the melody cleverly, it's interesting and assured the whole way through, and the interplay with the band is fantastic. Elvin Jones was such a great listener, just in constant conversation with the improvisers. Lee Morgan sounds great too - not quite as inventive a player as Wayne but makes a good foil to him here and echoes Wayne's approach of short, definitive phrases. Tyner/Workman/Jones is just one of the great all-time rhythm sections, incredible synergy, communication, such a unit. Tyner's solos are just classic Tyner solos, don't really know what else to say about them. He does his thing and I love his thing.

I keep reading or hearing that Wayne was criticized early for being a Coltrane wannabe or something, but I find that so hard to hear even as he plays with Coltrane's band - hard to imagine someone sounding less like Coltrane on tenor while playing with that band. Coltrane is sheets of sound, infinite permutations of harmony squeezed into a tight space. Shorter is a minimalist by comparison.

Wayne's compositional and melodic ideas become simplified and stripped down a bit vs the earlier records, although I've noticed a thread throughout is that he liked to create a little bit of ambiguity about the tonal center of the piece (although that's not that true about the title track here).

RVG + Blue Note - after listening to those Vee-Jay releases I really appreciate what they achieved in sound. They give the music so much depth and fullness.

Oriental Folk Song is a great tune as well, I could say a lot of the same I said about the first track in terms of the soloists and the band.

Virgo is incredibly lyrical as is his playing on it - you can almost hear a singer singing words to it. FWIW, I noticed this is by far the most played track on the record on Spotify (like 13m plays vs the next being 1m) -- wondering if it was used in some soundtrack or something. I love how the chord changes move too, I feel like they're a little surprising every time. Def a good example of deliberate ambiguity about tonal center. Something about it makes me think of being in a dim room where the mood lighting keeps gradually changing color.

Black Nile - I kind of find the intro on this one annoying but then it settles into a nice hard bop melody/arrangement. I guess Shorter's fiery solo on this one is the closest he gets to sounding Coltrane-ish, but the ideas are really pretty different musically.

Charcoal Blues is a strong track but I just don't have that much to say about it. Love the suspense build in Armageddon before the solos come in. Generally this is just a band that holds your attention every second, there's just so much energy and interaction at all times, no one ever phones it in.

Night Dreamer and Virgo are the big standouts for me, followed by Oriental Folk Song

I really love the cover photo on this as well

yeah, I actually started searching around to see if there was any way to get a print of it, it's great

Just bumping this to give folks a chance to say anything more about Night Dreamer before I do JuJu, one of my faves. Probably tonight.

I keep reading or hearing that Wayne was criticized early for being a Coltrane wannabe or something

i can kind of hear it but only in a distant way — seems to me Shorter has a different overall style from Coltrane, but there's something similar (especially in the early/mid-60s) about Wayne's tone/pitch that puts it closer to JC than some other players from around that time. Not a "wannabe" by any stretch though. Also a pretty strict avoidance of cliche.

yeah, I actually started searching around to see if there was any way to get a print of it, it's great

night dreamer just exudes coolness and mystery that his previous bandleader dates did not even approach. ofc as i mentioned upthread shorter refined his playing and composition during his tenure in the jazz messengers but even those records, awesome and electric as they may be, do not have the drowned-in-smoke atmosphere of his blue note run. i think tyler's making a legit point about shorter's tone re: its indebtedness to coltrane, but in every other way shorter was as pure a miles acolyte as there could be—remove everything extraneous so that your records are permissive, seductive, suggestive moods instead of blowathons*

*nothing against blowathons

sometimes you need a good blowathon, you know?

"virgo" is def my favorite track from night dreamer, nearly as stirring as "infant eyes"

Some thoughts on “Night Dreamer”: They’re all Shorter originals; he’s clearly feeling confident as a composer. His solos are next level throughout. While I can hear hints of Coltrane in some of Shorter’s phrasing, his tone is entirely his own here - he sounds like he knows exactly who he is now (that “come down from the mountain” vibe referenced above). On the “Introducing” album, he sometimes seemed like he needed Morgan to egg him on. No such case on “Night Dreamer.” His command is awe-inspiring. The album is recorded beautifully, other than Workman’s bass being a little muddy. Elvin Jones has that wonderful ability to play offbeat without losing the pulse. The rhythm section overall is seamless. Is there a story behind why McCoy Tyner is credited as “Etc.” on the cover, some sort of contractual dispute?

SUper Nova is so different from anything else he's done, it comes out of the gate doing skronky near euro-free improv. A this stage, you would maybe have expected smrthign a little more "In a Silent Way" mellow.

I think the McCoy thing was contractual, I remember reading about it at some point but can't dig it up. Maybe a conflict with Impulse?

dispatches from the future:

- if you're worried about getting bogged down in the '80s, it may comprise his weirdest solo material

- atlantis is quickly becoming my favorite shorter record after speak no evil and native dancer: slick, smooth, way more composed than improvised... like symphonic jazz without the symphony? chamber jazz? but with state of the art 1985 production so every instrument sounds hyperreal

- if he were any other musician, the work with the danilo perez/john patitucci/brian blade quartet would be the peak of his career, and it still might be

I listened to Atlantis recently and won't be coming back soon, but it's cool. Change a few details (the piano sound, the snare sound/reverb, swap out Alex Acuna (who kills it) for a modern drummer with all the linear playing and cymbal stacks du jour), and the style feels very contemporary compared with a certain strain of current straight 8th note jazz? Not sure if that's exactly a complement or not but I wonder how influential it was.

Managed to watch the first episode of the doc before my Prime free trial expired, worth it for the quintet footage alone.

Man alive, please update with the rest of your listening adventure which you surely kept up with.