Come Listen to The Entire Wayne Shorter Discography with Man Alive

Hehe, I never saw Richard Davis play electric, although I do remember buying some obscure '70s organ jazz-funk cd because it had him on it.

xp #1

i skipped ahead a little and wee-ow wayning moments is dope

jordan do you know Soul Rebels? Went to New Orleans for vacation a while back and ended up drinking withe trombone player at this bar by our Airbnb, he invited us to his show at this club the next night, they were so much fun (the sousaphone functioning as the bass was what reminded me), they do a lot of hip hop influenced stuff, nice dude

Yes, very well. They're one of those bands where at this point there are only two original members (the drummers) and for me they're just not what they once were. But there was a time in which they made their own lane and were a force to be reckoned with, super influential for sure. Unfortunately what I consider to be their classics ('No More Parades' and 'More James from No More Parades') aren't on streaming, but 'Urban Legend' (live in the studio with Bill Summers on percussion) best gets at what the classic lineup was capable of. The 'No Place Like Home' live album is great too.

If you want I can send you a bootleg of a brass band battle (recorded on minidsic) from the early '00s that I've listened to one million times, where they just blew down every other band.

cool yeah the drummers definitely looked older than the rest of the band. i listened to some newer albums on spotify and they didn't do much for me. the live show was incredible though. real party vibe. wish i would have bootlegged it.

would love to hear that battle.

I used to slip Soul Rebels' "Let Your Mind Be Free" into DJ sets occasionally and once had a cute gal run up to the DJ booth; turned out she was from New Orleans and was ecstatic I knew/had played the song.

Ah, the thread descends into anarchy as the people await further news!

I'll (probably) get the second record started this afternoon/evening - been through it a couple times.

Nice Dan. I just noticed that No More Parades is now on streaming, and the sequel is on Bandcamp: https://tuffcity.com/album/more-jams-from-no-more-parades-2

Those records don't capture the crazy volume that they were capable of and are a little jazzier, but are still great records.

Lol so many derails as we wait for man alive, I didn't expect this one on the Wayne Shorter thread.

Btw, I emailed you ums

Just listened to Second Genesis for the first time. Another good hard bop album, but maybe not quite as successful as Introducing. Shorter's solos don't seem as inspired on this one. I get the sense that Morgan really egged on Shorter on Introducing, and I miss that sense of friendly competition here. When the other instrumentalists do take solos on Second Genesis, Shorter seems to re-emerge into the song with more energy, but overall he just doesn't seem as excited to be playing. "Tenderfoot" is definitely a highlight - Walton's piano solo is killer, and Blakey's drum breaks are amazing. I also love Blakey's rim shots and triplets on the ride cymbal throughout the album, which gives the music some swing along with the walking bass lines. For me, the highlights of the album are the ballads - "The Albatross" has a breathtaking melody, and Shorter's playing is aching and lovely from start to finish. His interpretation of "I Didn't Know What Time It Was" also features some gorgeous low-key playing.

And not to belabor the thread derailment re: bass, I've coincidentally been thinking about buying an electric upright bass (after decades of playing a regular old Fender fretted electric). One of the reasons I've held back is that I've had trouble finding good examples of people playing upright electric on record, so it's hard to tell exactly what I'd be getting into tone-wise. I hadn't previously heard the Lee Morgan album that Tarfumes pointed out above - the tone that Merritt gets out of the upright electric is the closest to an acoustic double bass I've ever heard from an electric (upright or otherwise). It's kinda mind-blowing actually. What are some other examples of bassists playing upright electric on record (studio or live)?

I have a theory that in straight-ahead/acoustic jazz you really need the depth of upright bass because the kick drum doesn't play the same kind of anchoring/bottom-end role, whereas in funk or rock the kick drum carries a lot of the bottom end and pulse.

I feel like that's why straight ahead jazz with electric bass always feels thin and chintzy.

xxp here's one:
https://www.discogs.com/release/403684-Ramsey-Lewis-Sun-Goddess

and also
https://www.discogs.com/release/879849-Tom-Waits-Bone-Machine

'Feathering the bass drum' has been a topic on drummer youtube lately. Almost all of the jazz drummers through the '60s would play the bass drum very lightly on all four beats in between accents, but you can't hear it on records. Live, it's very much a 'felt not heard' thing, you can tell when it's not present and it was mostly done to support the bass when amplification wasn't very good (or was non-existent).

Most modern drummers never learned to do it, and it's not as necessary now that you can get a lot of bottom end from bass amps. I do it on slower tempos but admittedly suck at higher tempos, it's hard!

I was taught to do it when I played drums in summer program big bands.

Makes sense, I think it's much more important for driving a big band, and you don't have to be so light that it's nearly imperceptible either. I need to build up those ankle/lower leg muscles again, lol.

Tootie Heath interview in which he discussed feathering at some length

Ben Riley mentions feathering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNDr0e5z0Hk

^Greg Hutchinson

Trying not to get too far ahead of our host, but isn't it kind of weird how the title track of Wayning Moments is such an obvious variation on 'All Blues'? I wonder how it came off at the time, before Shorter ever played with Miles -- as an homage? Or maybe it's just me.

Alright, sorry guys:

2. Second Genesis 1960 Vee-Jay 1974
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6a/Second_Genesis_VeeJay.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Cedar Walton – piano
Bob Cranshaw – double-bass
Art Blakey – drums

I've been through this one several times. The first thing that strikes me is just how completely different Wayne sounds here vs Introducing. His sound is much softer, and I feel like the sound he crystalized later is somewhere in between these first two records. Here he sounds a bit more like Booker Ervin or Stan Getz.

I don't dislike anything about this record, but nothing on it really stayed with me the way a few of the tracks on Introducing do. After several listens, The Albatross is probably the one that sticks out in my mind the most, but it feels derivative of Mal Waldron's "Soul Eyes," first recorded three years earlier with Coltrane on the session, (though more famously in 1962 by Coltrane on Impulse).

The rhythm section sounds really good - I kind of like Art Blakey better as an accompanist than as a soloist (he has a bit of a "bag of tricks" that I find gets tiresome after a while) but his ride playing and comping sound excellent here. Bob Cranshaw in the cut too.

I guess this was Wayne sort of still feeling around for his sound and approach.

Pay as You Go is a decent tune with a terrible name. Tenderfoot also pretty good. IDK, nothing really to get excited about here but a perfectly enjoyable listen. A step down from Introducing, but interesting as a step in his development, particularly seeing how far away it is from his first release when recorded only a year later.

OTM about 70s cover on a 1960 record, found that amusing too.

One thing that occurred to me listening to this that was always very different about Wayne from Coltrane was that Wayne had a tendency to play relatively short phrases - sometimes 2-3 notes and then space, whereas Coltrane rarely did that. In that regard he's maybe a bit more like Sonny Rollins.

Anyway, I'm hoping to do Wayning Moments quickly as I'm not really digging it that much and looking forward to getting into the classic Blue Note material.

Agreed! Except I've been really enjoying the familiarity of AB's bag of tricks lately.

I get a little more sense of Wayne Shorter playing *with* the group, and Coltrane on his journey being backed up by the band? Maybe that's the downside of his influence on a few generations of sax players.

I skipped ahead of the early Blue Note classics because they're so familiar, and for the last couple days I've been deeply enjoying the records with Joe Chambers.

Oh hi. I started a new thread very tangentially related to the earlier derail.

it’s not in the spirit of this thread’s (admirable, sane) focus but i’ve been doing an exploded listen of shorter’s work, going through every jazz messengers and miles and etc. record featuring shorter. right now i’m listening to a personal fave some other stuff by grachan moncur iii which just sounds insane alongside shorter’s big blue note band leader dates, somehow occurring in the same year

i really love introducing bc the band is perfect, and wayning moments is enjoyable but i would argue 1963 is a pretty crucial year in shorter’s development, those blakey records, especially when freddie hubbard/cedar walton/curtis fuller join, are just fully unleashed into the stratosphere

I’m all for bringing in commentary on contemporaneous sideman work, I think that’s a good idea. I was more just overwhelmed by the idea of having to do the complete sideman discog.

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

what a fantastic thread

I enjoyed digging into those Vee-Jay albums for the first time. Starting my day now with Night Dreamer, which I have heard before but it's been a while. His compositions and solos really take a big leap forward here.

Night Dreamer is so far ahead.

Night Dreamer really hitting the spot this morning, thanks thread

I've still been stuck on the Et Cetera through Schizophrenia run, and was reminded that Joe Chambers is still with us (and Herbie, and Ron, and Cecil McBee). <3

enjoying second genesis but not as much as introducing

this thread is great but also frustrating because i love this stuff but sometimes i don't have the musical vocabulary to properly talk about it

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, March 11, 2023 3:53 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Fun side bar: the records the Quintet made pre-Shorter with George Coleman and Sam Rivers (!!) in the tenor role that Shorter took over

He also played on Lee Morgan's amazing Search for the New Land in 1964, with Herbie Hancock, Grant Green, Reggie Workman, and Billy Higgins.

That's a great record, but tbh on the title track it drives me crazy how they repeat that rubato section with every soloist, it gets too predictable and feels like it takes forever (and becomes almost a little comical when they drop into the groove every time).

I seem to remember Miles said something about how George Coleman solos were "too perfect" (which I guess implied lack of risk taking). Forgot Sam Rivers also had a stint - I was just listening to Fuschia Swing Song the other day, which sort of feels like a Shorter cousin. Shorter and Rivers also both played on Tony Williams' Spring, a record I love.

3. [Horrible 1960s Album Titles Like] Wayning Moments
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Wayning_Moments.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Freddie Hubbard – trumpet
Eddie Higgins – piano
Jymie Merritt – double-bass
Marshall Thompson – drums

Figured I might as well officially start this one off at least. It was at first my least favorite of the pre-Blue Note 3 but it's grown on me. Freddie Hubbard's work is v nice here and I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads. Rhythm section is fine, nothing to write home about. Marshall Thomspon is boring on drums. Not really familiar with Eddie Higgins piano work, sounds fine here - looks like he recorded a bunch with Marshall Thompson, so maybe they came as a package. Neither of them have anything in their sideman work that rings a bell for me.

Black Orpheus with a swing feel kind of falls flat for me. It almost works in a noirish sort of way, but not quite. I like the title track and Devil's Island best.

Jymie Merritt has a nice big sound here, is of course v recognizable from his work with the Messengers, and also I had forgotten he's on another record I love, Max Roach's Drums Unlimited

Oh, just realized Merritt wrote Nommo. Such a cool tune.

I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads.

Love (as the listener) the feeling of sitting between them in the first minute of "Devil's Island," with each one far left/right channel during those harmonies.

Totally agree about the swung version of Black Orpheus, weird decision and I don't think it works. And does anyone else hear 'Wayning Moments' as a riff on 'All Blues'?

Can't wait until this thread hits the '80s period, even if that's in 2024. ;)

Definitely heard "All Blues" in that.

After this I might have to veer into the complete Joe Chambers discography

Wayning Moments is probably my favorite of the first three albums, although I can’t really articulate why. I think maybe Shorter’s playing sounds more decisive here? He seemed a bit hesitant on Second Genesis. I agree the stereo splitting of Shorter and Hubbard’s harmonies is really nice. Merritt’s bass is big and swinging throughout. I wish he had a chance to solo somewhere along the way, but he does maintain a strong presence in the mix and keeps things moving. The drums and piano just kinda do their thing without really standing out, but that’s fine. They’re solid. One small complaint is the arrangements can be predictable in that it’s really just Shorter and Hubbard trading solos over and over in a similar order in each song. And the band doesn’t interact much - everyone pretty much stays in their lane. I would’ve loved a few clashes. Overall, though, I like the album. It’s been neat to start this thread at the beginning of Shorter’s career as a leader. I’ve been learning a lot from everyone’s comments.

Alright here goes.

4. Night Dreamer 1964 Blue Note 1964

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Night_Dreamer.jpg
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Lee Morgan – trumpet
McCoy Tyner – piano
Reggie Workman – bass
Elvin Jones – drums

Although I was generally pretty familiar with his Blue Note material at least through SuperNova, there are certain albums I've spent more vs less time with, and this one is definitely on the less list, and it's been a pleasure to revisit and really dig into.

A few people have said what a leap it is, and I totally agree, in every sense -- compositionally, sonically, improvisationally, band interplay, even the cover art. This is kind of an archetypal early to mid 60s Blue Note record. From the very start it almost has the feeling of someone who went off to live on a mountain for a couple of years to develop themselves and finally came down changed.

The tile track is gorgeous, strong, well-constructed. My kids heard it and said the melody reminded them a little of Ode to Joy, although of course it does the very Wayne Shorter thing of taking a fairly simple melodic/harmonic idea to start with but then taking a sharp left turn.

Wayne opens his solo on Night Dreamer much more confidently than he played on the prior records. I almost think of a shofar blast or someone shouting a sermon. He has ideas, he plays with the melody cleverly, it's interesting and assured the whole way through, and the interplay with the band is fantastic. Elvin Jones was such a great listener, just in constant conversation with the improvisers. Lee Morgan sounds great too - not quite as inventive a player as Wayne but makes a good foil to him here and echoes Wayne's approach of short, definitive phrases. Tyner/Workman/Jones is just one of the great all-time rhythm sections, incredible synergy, communication, such a unit. Tyner's solos are just classic Tyner solos, don't really know what else to say about them. He does his thing and I love his thing.

I keep reading or hearing that Wayne was criticized early for being a Coltrane wannabe or something, but I find that so hard to hear even as he plays with Coltrane's band - hard to imagine someone sounding less like Coltrane on tenor while playing with that band. Coltrane is sheets of sound, infinite permutations of harmony squeezed into a tight space. Shorter is a minimalist by comparison.

Wayne's compositional and melodic ideas become simplified and stripped down a bit vs the earlier records, although I've noticed a thread throughout is that he liked to create a little bit of ambiguity about the tonal center of the piece (although that's not that true about the title track here).

RVG + Blue Note - after listening to those Vee-Jay releases I really appreciate what they achieved in sound. They give the music so much depth and fullness.

Oriental Folk Song is a great tune as well, I could say a lot of the same I said about the first track in terms of the soloists and the band.

Virgo is incredibly lyrical as is his playing on it - you can almost hear a singer singing words to it. FWIW, I noticed this is by far the most played track on the record on Spotify (like 13m plays vs the next being 1m) -- wondering if it was used in some soundtrack or something. I love how the chord changes move too, I feel like they're a little surprising every time. Def a good example of deliberate ambiguity about tonal center. Something about it makes me think of being in a dim room where the mood lighting keeps gradually changing color.

Black Nile - I kind of find the intro on this one annoying but then it settles into a nice hard bop melody/arrangement. I guess Shorter's fiery solo on this one is the closest he gets to sounding Coltrane-ish, but the ideas are really pretty different musically.

Charcoal Blues is a strong track but I just don't have that much to say about it. Love the suspense build in Armageddon before the solos come in. Generally this is just a band that holds your attention every second, there's just so much energy and interaction at all times, no one ever phones it in.

Night Dreamer and Virgo are the big standouts for me, followed by Oriental Folk Song

I really love the cover photo on this as well

yeah, I actually started searching around to see if there was any way to get a print of it, it's great

Just bumping this to give folks a chance to say anything more about Night Dreamer before I do JuJu, one of my faves. Probably tonight.

I keep reading or hearing that Wayne was criticized early for being a Coltrane wannabe or something

i can kind of hear it but only in a distant way — seems to me Shorter has a different overall style from Coltrane, but there's something similar (especially in the early/mid-60s) about Wayne's tone/pitch that puts it closer to JC than some other players from around that time. Not a "wannabe" by any stretch though. Also a pretty strict avoidance of cliche.

I listened to Atlantis recently and won't be coming back soon, but it's cool. Change a few details (the piano sound, the snare sound/reverb, swap out Alex Acuna (who kills it) for a modern drummer with all the linear playing and cymbal stacks du jour), and the style feels very contemporary compared with a certain strain of current straight 8th note jazz? Not sure if that's exactly a complement or not but I wonder how influential it was.

Managed to watch the first episode of the doc before my Prime free trial expired, worth it for the quintet footage alone.

Man alive, please update with the rest of your listening adventure which you surely kept up with.