Come Listen to The Entire Wayne Shorter Discography with Man Alive

This has historically been true, I think it’s less so now.

Definitely. There's no longer the stigma of electric bass guitar being seen as a "rock" instrument (and, subsequently, a step towards selling out).

I know a couple chops-heavy bass players who sound incredible on upright, but put them on electric and it's a busy mess of notes. It's like the leash was taken off and they're excited puppies running around causing chaos.

Haha this is otm. I've experienced that as well. All of a sudden, phrasing goes out the window because it's an "easier" instrument to play.

Was wondering when we were going to get around to Patitucci, bringing it back full circle to Wayne.

Feel like most, but not all, who also play Latin and Latin Jazz usually have a better sound on electric because of the discipline of the tumbao. Actually one of those guys, who also plays a very famous lion’s head bass, told me that when he toured with Ray Barretto in Europe he brought his electric because “Ray is not going to pay to ship an upright and you will show up and end up with whatever weird bass the promoter provides.” He also told me he learned a lot playing disco in wedding bands.

I like how this thread has derailed into an upright/electric debate, because I play in a rockabilly/swing band and if there's any genre where upright is "required" more than jazz, that's it. But like Mr. Redd I've never learned. Maybe when I no longer have a day job.

Anyway, Shorter: I lack a lot of the jazz knowledge and vocabulary to describe what I'm hearing, but agree the debut is really good, energetic, swinging hard bop, different from the more cerebral later stuff I associate with him.

I may have liked Second Genesis even more. Without a second horn it's a little less easier for me to focus on his playing. And the two standards at the end satisfied the moldy fig in me.

'Tenderfoot' rips.

Hell yes.

Art Blakey roolz

HELL yes.

That shouldn't sat "less easier" wtf

say. I give up.

In New Orleans there are a surprising amount of musicians who double on sousaphone and electric bass, now that's a whole different thing.

― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:04 AM (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jordan do you know Soul Rebels? Went to New Orleans for vacation a while back and ended up drinking withe trombone player at this bar by our Airbnb, he invited us to his show at this club the next night, they were so much fun (the sousaphone functioning as the bass was what reminded me), they do a lot of hip hop influenced stuff, nice dude

xxxxpost it's cool boring :) i was being snarky tbh

My feeling about derail is that all roads ultimately lead back to Wayne anyway so I am fine with it, both as the original derailer and as an ongoing participant in this thread.

Hehe, I never saw Richard Davis play electric, although I do remember buying some obscure '70s organ jazz-funk cd because it had him on it.

xp #1

i skipped ahead a little and wee-ow wayning moments is dope

jordan do you know Soul Rebels? Went to New Orleans for vacation a while back and ended up drinking withe trombone player at this bar by our Airbnb, he invited us to his show at this club the next night, they were so much fun (the sousaphone functioning as the bass was what reminded me), they do a lot of hip hop influenced stuff, nice dude

Yes, very well. They're one of those bands where at this point there are only two original members (the drummers) and for me they're just not what they once were. But there was a time in which they made their own lane and were a force to be reckoned with, super influential for sure. Unfortunately what I consider to be their classics ('No More Parades' and 'More James from No More Parades') aren't on streaming, but 'Urban Legend' (live in the studio with Bill Summers on percussion) best gets at what the classic lineup was capable of. The 'No Place Like Home' live album is great too.

If you want I can send you a bootleg of a brass band battle (recorded on minidsic) from the early '00s that I've listened to one million times, where they just blew down every other band.

cool yeah the drummers definitely looked older than the rest of the band. i listened to some newer albums on spotify and they didn't do much for me. the live show was incredible though. real party vibe. wish i would have bootlegged it.

would love to hear that battle.

I used to slip Soul Rebels' "Let Your Mind Be Free" into DJ sets occasionally and once had a cute gal run up to the DJ booth; turned out she was from New Orleans and was ecstatic I knew/had played the song.

Ah, the thread descends into anarchy as the people await further news!

I'll (probably) get the second record started this afternoon/evening - been through it a couple times.

Nice Dan. I just noticed that No More Parades is now on streaming, and the sequel is on Bandcamp: https://tuffcity.com/album/more-jams-from-no-more-parades-2

Those records don't capture the crazy volume that they were capable of and are a little jazzier, but are still great records.

Lol so many derails as we wait for man alive, I didn't expect this one on the Wayne Shorter thread.

Btw, I emailed you ums

Just listened to Second Genesis for the first time. Another good hard bop album, but maybe not quite as successful as Introducing. Shorter's solos don't seem as inspired on this one. I get the sense that Morgan really egged on Shorter on Introducing, and I miss that sense of friendly competition here. When the other instrumentalists do take solos on Second Genesis, Shorter seems to re-emerge into the song with more energy, but overall he just doesn't seem as excited to be playing. "Tenderfoot" is definitely a highlight - Walton's piano solo is killer, and Blakey's drum breaks are amazing. I also love Blakey's rim shots and triplets on the ride cymbal throughout the album, which gives the music some swing along with the walking bass lines. For me, the highlights of the album are the ballads - "The Albatross" has a breathtaking melody, and Shorter's playing is aching and lovely from start to finish. His interpretation of "I Didn't Know What Time It Was" also features some gorgeous low-key playing.

And not to belabor the thread derailment re: bass, I've coincidentally been thinking about buying an electric upright bass (after decades of playing a regular old Fender fretted electric). One of the reasons I've held back is that I've had trouble finding good examples of people playing upright electric on record, so it's hard to tell exactly what I'd be getting into tone-wise. I hadn't previously heard the Lee Morgan album that Tarfumes pointed out above - the tone that Merritt gets out of the upright electric is the closest to an acoustic double bass I've ever heard from an electric (upright or otherwise). It's kinda mind-blowing actually. What are some other examples of bassists playing upright electric on record (studio or live)?

I have a theory that in straight-ahead/acoustic jazz you really need the depth of upright bass because the kick drum doesn't play the same kind of anchoring/bottom-end role, whereas in funk or rock the kick drum carries a lot of the bottom end and pulse.

I feel like that's why straight ahead jazz with electric bass always feels thin and chintzy.

xxp here's one:
https://www.discogs.com/release/403684-Ramsey-Lewis-Sun-Goddess

and also
https://www.discogs.com/release/879849-Tom-Waits-Bone-Machine

'Feathering the bass drum' has been a topic on drummer youtube lately. Almost all of the jazz drummers through the '60s would play the bass drum very lightly on all four beats in between accents, but you can't hear it on records. Live, it's very much a 'felt not heard' thing, you can tell when it's not present and it was mostly done to support the bass when amplification wasn't very good (or was non-existent).

Most modern drummers never learned to do it, and it's not as necessary now that you can get a lot of bottom end from bass amps. I do it on slower tempos but admittedly suck at higher tempos, it's hard!

I was taught to do it when I played drums in summer program big bands.

Makes sense, I think it's much more important for driving a big band, and you don't have to be so light that it's nearly imperceptible either. I need to build up those ankle/lower leg muscles again, lol.

Tootie Heath interview in which he discussed feathering at some length

Ben Riley mentions feathering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNDr0e5z0Hk

^Greg Hutchinson

Trying not to get too far ahead of our host, but isn't it kind of weird how the title track of Wayning Moments is such an obvious variation on 'All Blues'? I wonder how it came off at the time, before Shorter ever played with Miles -- as an homage? Or maybe it's just me.

Alright, sorry guys:

2. Second Genesis 1960 Vee-Jay 1974
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6a/Second_Genesis_VeeJay.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Cedar Walton – piano
Bob Cranshaw – double-bass
Art Blakey – drums

I've been through this one several times. The first thing that strikes me is just how completely different Wayne sounds here vs Introducing. His sound is much softer, and I feel like the sound he crystalized later is somewhere in between these first two records. Here he sounds a bit more like Booker Ervin or Stan Getz.

I don't dislike anything about this record, but nothing on it really stayed with me the way a few of the tracks on Introducing do. After several listens, The Albatross is probably the one that sticks out in my mind the most, but it feels derivative of Mal Waldron's "Soul Eyes," first recorded three years earlier with Coltrane on the session, (though more famously in 1962 by Coltrane on Impulse).

The rhythm section sounds really good - I kind of like Art Blakey better as an accompanist than as a soloist (he has a bit of a "bag of tricks" that I find gets tiresome after a while) but his ride playing and comping sound excellent here. Bob Cranshaw in the cut too.

I guess this was Wayne sort of still feeling around for his sound and approach.

Pay as You Go is a decent tune with a terrible name. Tenderfoot also pretty good. IDK, nothing really to get excited about here but a perfectly enjoyable listen. A step down from Introducing, but interesting as a step in his development, particularly seeing how far away it is from his first release when recorded only a year later.

OTM about 70s cover on a 1960 record, found that amusing too.

One thing that occurred to me listening to this that was always very different about Wayne from Coltrane was that Wayne had a tendency to play relatively short phrases - sometimes 2-3 notes and then space, whereas Coltrane rarely did that. In that regard he's maybe a bit more like Sonny Rollins.

Anyway, I'm hoping to do Wayning Moments quickly as I'm not really digging it that much and looking forward to getting into the classic Blue Note material.

Agreed! Except I've been really enjoying the familiarity of AB's bag of tricks lately.

I get a little more sense of Wayne Shorter playing *with* the group, and Coltrane on his journey being backed up by the band? Maybe that's the downside of his influence on a few generations of sax players.

I skipped ahead of the early Blue Note classics because they're so familiar, and for the last couple days I've been deeply enjoying the records with Joe Chambers.

Oh hi. I started a new thread very tangentially related to the earlier derail.

it’s not in the spirit of this thread’s (admirable, sane) focus but i’ve been doing an exploded listen of shorter’s work, going through every jazz messengers and miles and etc. record featuring shorter. right now i’m listening to a personal fave some other stuff by grachan moncur iii which just sounds insane alongside shorter’s big blue note band leader dates, somehow occurring in the same year

i really love introducing bc the band is perfect, and wayning moments is enjoyable but i would argue 1963 is a pretty crucial year in shorter’s development, those blakey records, especially when freddie hubbard/cedar walton/curtis fuller join, are just fully unleashed into the stratosphere

I’m all for bringing in commentary on contemporaneous sideman work, I think that’s a good idea. I was more just overwhelmed by the idea of having to do the complete sideman discog.

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

what a fantastic thread

I enjoyed digging into those Vee-Jay albums for the first time. Starting my day now with Night Dreamer, which I have heard before but it's been a while. His compositions and solos really take a big leap forward here.

Night Dreamer is so far ahead.

Night Dreamer really hitting the spot this morning, thanks thread

I've still been stuck on the Et Cetera through Schizophrenia run, and was reminded that Joe Chambers is still with us (and Herbie, and Ron, and Cecil McBee). <3

enjoying second genesis but not as much as introducing

this thread is great but also frustrating because i love this stuff but sometimes i don't have the musical vocabulary to properly talk about it

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, March 11, 2023 3:53 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Fun side bar: the records the Quintet made pre-Shorter with George Coleman and Sam Rivers (!!) in the tenor role that Shorter took over

He also played on Lee Morgan's amazing Search for the New Land in 1964, with Herbie Hancock, Grant Green, Reggie Workman, and Billy Higgins.

That's a great record, but tbh on the title track it drives me crazy how they repeat that rubato section with every soloist, it gets too predictable and feels like it takes forever (and becomes almost a little comical when they drop into the groove every time).

I seem to remember Miles said something about how George Coleman solos were "too perfect" (which I guess implied lack of risk taking). Forgot Sam Rivers also had a stint - I was just listening to Fuschia Swing Song the other day, which sort of feels like a Shorter cousin. Shorter and Rivers also both played on Tony Williams' Spring, a record I love.

3. [Horrible 1960s Album Titles Like] Wayning Moments
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Wayning_Moments.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Freddie Hubbard – trumpet
Eddie Higgins – piano
Jymie Merritt – double-bass
Marshall Thompson – drums

Figured I might as well officially start this one off at least. It was at first my least favorite of the pre-Blue Note 3 but it's grown on me. Freddie Hubbard's work is v nice here and I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads. Rhythm section is fine, nothing to write home about. Marshall Thomspon is boring on drums. Not really familiar with Eddie Higgins piano work, sounds fine here - looks like he recorded a bunch with Marshall Thompson, so maybe they came as a package. Neither of them have anything in their sideman work that rings a bell for me.

Black Orpheus with a swing feel kind of falls flat for me. It almost works in a noirish sort of way, but not quite. I like the title track and Devil's Island best.

Jymie Merritt has a nice big sound here, is of course v recognizable from his work with the Messengers, and also I had forgotten he's on another record I love, Max Roach's Drums Unlimited

Oh, just realized Merritt wrote Nommo. Such a cool tune.

I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads.

Love (as the listener) the feeling of sitting between them in the first minute of "Devil's Island," with each one far left/right channel during those harmonies.

Totally agree about the swung version of Black Orpheus, weird decision and I don't think it works. And does anyone else hear 'Wayning Moments' as a riff on 'All Blues'?

Can't wait until this thread hits the '80s period, even if that's in 2024. ;)

yeah, I actually started searching around to see if there was any way to get a print of it, it's great

night dreamer just exudes coolness and mystery that his previous bandleader dates did not even approach. ofc as i mentioned upthread shorter refined his playing and composition during his tenure in the jazz messengers but even those records, awesome and electric as they may be, do not have the drowned-in-smoke atmosphere of his blue note run. i think tyler's making a legit point about shorter's tone re: its indebtedness to coltrane, but in every other way shorter was as pure a miles acolyte as there could be—remove everything extraneous so that your records are permissive, seductive, suggestive moods instead of blowathons*

*nothing against blowathons

sometimes you need a good blowathon, you know?

"virgo" is def my favorite track from night dreamer, nearly as stirring as "infant eyes"

Some thoughts on “Night Dreamer”: They’re all Shorter originals; he’s clearly feeling confident as a composer. His solos are next level throughout. While I can hear hints of Coltrane in some of Shorter’s phrasing, his tone is entirely his own here - he sounds like he knows exactly who he is now (that “come down from the mountain” vibe referenced above). On the “Introducing” album, he sometimes seemed like he needed Morgan to egg him on. No such case on “Night Dreamer.” His command is awe-inspiring. The album is recorded beautifully, other than Workman’s bass being a little muddy. Elvin Jones has that wonderful ability to play offbeat without losing the pulse. The rhythm section overall is seamless. Is there a story behind why McCoy Tyner is credited as “Etc.” on the cover, some sort of contractual dispute?

SUper Nova is so different from anything else he's done, it comes out of the gate doing skronky near euro-free improv. A this stage, you would maybe have expected smrthign a little more "In a Silent Way" mellow.

I think the McCoy thing was contractual, I remember reading about it at some point but can't dig it up. Maybe a conflict with Impulse?

dispatches from the future:

- if you're worried about getting bogged down in the '80s, it may comprise his weirdest solo material

- atlantis is quickly becoming my favorite shorter record after speak no evil and native dancer: slick, smooth, way more composed than improvised... like symphonic jazz without the symphony? chamber jazz? but with state of the art 1985 production so every instrument sounds hyperreal

- if he were any other musician, the work with the danilo perez/john patitucci/brian blade quartet would be the peak of his career, and it still might be

I listened to Atlantis recently and won't be coming back soon, but it's cool. Change a few details (the piano sound, the snare sound/reverb, swap out Alex Acuna (who kills it) for a modern drummer with all the linear playing and cymbal stacks du jour), and the style feels very contemporary compared with a certain strain of current straight 8th note jazz? Not sure if that's exactly a complement or not but I wonder how influential it was.

Managed to watch the first episode of the doc before my Prime free trial expired, worth it for the quintet footage alone.

Man alive, please update with the rest of your listening adventure which you surely kept up with.