Ask A Catholic

My mum as a lifetime on/off lapsed catholic buys wafers as a substitute because she fell in love with communion hosts at an early age ... I'm not making this up! Had no idea they were widely available online. At least now I have a good birthday pressie option for her.

in my presbyterian youth, we used sourdough bread (very NorCal) and welch's grape juice.. everybody got their own shot glass, we didn't share a cup

also there was no transfiguration or whatever you call it, the bread was just bread and not the actual flesh of christ

i don't understand the catholic sense of forgiveness. some of the most of unforgiving ppl i know are catholics. is this just my limited experience or is the concept somehow perverted as a type of punishment?

I forgive you.

catholics do love history -- the old churches, holy relics, that thing you did

Bless, alfred

Lol sufjan

guilt and forgiveness are the pendulum that swings butts into seats on Sunday. there's a sacrament requiring the CEO's signature on forgiveness with middle management present.

The simple answer: it's easier to condemn than to accept. The latter puts you in a position of weakness.

Seems like a lot weight to carry but you know

Jesus carried his own cross, man -- it's the least we can do.

a new priest has Young Pope'd my home town's church. women wear veils. men wear suits. One (drunk) lady started speaking in tongues in a webcast mass. Turned it into his fascist terrarium. most people left, but a new crowd showed up. there's a spectrum of "catholics", so it can be important to know which we're talking about.

Most Catholics in my acquaintance only speak in tongues when I offer them Negronis.

mel gibsons and negroni fiends

i don't understand the catholic sense of forgiveness. some of the most of unforgiving ppl i know are catholics. is this just my limited experience or is the concept somehow perverted as a type of punishment?

i don't understand the catholic sense of forgiveness. some of the most of unforgiving ppl i know are catholics. is this just my limited experience or is the concept somehow perverted as a type of punishment?

― Comfortably numbnuts (Heez)

there are lots of different sorts of catholics but those sort of catholics you're talking about...

i mean look what you really wanna watch out for are _british catholics_. british catholics are just fuckin' bad news all around.

anyway, those kind of catholics, and you have a lot of the same in america too but they're not oxbridge educated, they'll forgive you, but only for the stuff _they_ did.

then you also have the catholics who are basically pipelining evangelicals, the evangelicals decided they loved catholics when roe v. wade came down and ever since then they've been, like. evangelicalizing a lot of catholics, to where american catholicism is in a lot of ways another evangelical church, but with the robust tradition of highly organized institutional child abuse american roman catholicism is renowned for. i mean when evangelicals do child abuse, it's usually more grass-roots, more of a DIY thing. catholics... well, they don't have it set up as well structurally _now_, because they lost a lot of their funds once they were held legally responsible for institutionally supporting CSA. but for a while there, i mean, it was them and the mormons and _no_ competition from anybody else. i don't really know shit about the mormons, we grew up on the east coast, not really a lot of mormons out there. i just know that they're very organized and very patriarchal.

the ones you really wanna watch out for is the jesuits. they'll take the most fucked up wrong shit imaginable and make it sound reasonable. whenever i say fucked up shit and somehow manage to make it sound reasonable, that's part of my heritage, my grandfather got his law degree from a jesuit law school. i've been working really hard for a long time to try and unlearn that behavior.

the tenets of Christ are followed less than even the Tenet of Chris

Kate, I've just got back from the funeral of my uncle, my extended family of Liverpool Catholics were there as well as many from the Catholic school he was deputy headteacher of (in London) - he was a lifelong socialist and many of the others there are too. Think it doesn't need to be stressed that I don't agree that any of these people are "fuckin' bad news all round", and that includes my uncle's cousin, who is a bishop.

You know I have many problems with the church and hated my Catholic high school (which uses the same motto as the jesuits) and am absolutely an unbeliever now, but the actual people are generally fine.

no that's fair, "all around" is an overstatement. _intellectual converts to catholicism_. your tony blairs.

to be clear, i apologize unambiguously for that statement. i got _lots_ of issues with certain aspects of catholicism. but the actual catholics themselves, no, any problems i have are _very very limited_ and have more to do with the institutional culture fostered by certain people in positions of authority. like. they're not like _cops_ or anything.

I am totally going from a small. Sample size and should have worded it as a question. I am genuinely curious whether there’s something inherent in Catholicism that makes forgiveness, or the lack thereof, a powerful tool.

xp Well I am also very suspicious of Anglican converts to Catholicism, they take it all way too seriously, they don't get that having so many rules means that you can safely ignore all of them.

i mean look what you really wanna watch out for are _british catholics_. british catholics are just fuckin' bad news all around.

English Catholics I think you mean.

xp But I guess they usually convert because they object to female/gay vicars or something.

Some of the loudest leftists I know are Catholics, all of whom have liberation theology sects in their blood.

I am totally going from a small. Sample size and should have worded it as a question. I am genuinely curious whether there’s something inherent in Catholicism that makes forgiveness, or the lack thereof, a powerful tool.

― Comfortably numbnuts (Heez)

oh sure, it's the biblical passage that they say is the scriptural basis for the papacy, from Matthew 16:

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

forgiveness, or the lack thereof, is an _integral_ part of catholic tradition, on an _ongoing basis_. out of the seven sacraments, the only ones that are _regular acts_ are communion and confession. it's part of why "catholic guilt" is such a thing, the expectation is that you are regularly going to confess your sins to a priest and do penance (i personally was never asked to do more than symbolic penance - a couple hail marys, a couple our fathers, not even close to a full rosary's worth, just a couple). it's kind of similar to the concept of "self-criticism" in marxist-leninism, except done in private rather than in public.

Some of the loudest leftists I know are Catholics, all of whom have liberation theology sects in their blood.

― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

the thing that gives me the most pause about this is that among white leftist catholics at least, the one they all seem to praise most is Dorothy Day. and in a lot of ways, in a lot of things, i think what she did was good. but it's the anti-abortion thing. to me, you know, i don't feel like that's someone i can be in _communion_, as they say, with. because what happens is time goes on and what gets lost is all the radical stuff she advocated for, and what _stays_ is the anti-abortion bit. an institution like the catholic church, particularly one founded by patriarchy, it wears down and erodes any opposition to it.

the same way, this is my understanding you have... francis of assisi. and this is a guy who was a radical opponent of the church, a radical reformer. martin luther wasn't the first. you had people, _often_ from the clergy, looking at what the church was doing and saying "hey, this, uh, this doesn't really seem to be in line with, like, what jesus actually taught, he wasn't all 'hey you want to live a good life start a rich, powerful, and oppressive institution in My name'"

and the church was like "ok two options. one, you quit talking about _political_ issues and stick to telling people to be good people, and you know, we'll encourage that. we're on the same page here, we want people to be good people too. but if you keep going around telling people about how what we're doing isn't in line with what jesus said, you know, we'll declare you heretic and kill you and all your followers. your choice, friendo." and he chose the first path, and that's why pope francis has the name he does, and catholics can all go like "lord make me an instrument of your peace" or whatever, and there are all these pictures of him being a friend to animals. and that's it, that's kinda all you get out of him, a name and some inoffensive pretty-sounding words.

i mean i guess being put to death as a heretic wouldn't exactly have done him any more good. like, what, he could be remembered the way the cathars are? yeah that doesn't seem like an improvement. idk. i guess i drank the kool-aid a little much as a kid when they kept telling me what saints the martyrs were.

i was at the funeral of an elderly rural catholic today, service was weird as they all seem to me now that im long enough outside of the cant and the concepts but the piece about the departed spelled out a life well lived and cherished and celebrated all the same regardless of noting his fondness for a pint

merchant seaman, mechanic, antiques dealer and father of ten. doubt he was a saint, dont doubt he was a catholic, doubt he was observant for what the purposes of this thread would seem to be

in other words typical enough of my experience of the irish roman catholic

little enough time was spent on the school-rules fanaticism which seems to dominate american commentator experience of catholicism. if i were to guess id say theres about ten of those people in the world and seven of them only started after reading dan brown.

is it possible ye read the rules and rarely observe the people at all, i ask

Eh there's a lot of American Catholics who identify culturally but don't practice any observance or church attendance except weddings and funerals, and they CERTAINLY don't have a personal religious practice or any interest in a moral code or spiritual pursuits. Unfortunately they still vote for Republicans and against abortion despite enjoying the benefits of birth control, family planning, mixed fibers, and doing whatever they want on the sabbath.

is it possible ye read the rules and rarely observe the people at all, i ask

― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac)

the rules, and the powerful people who decide what the rules mean, they have more influence on my life than the people. it's just... it's the hardest thing for me, to talk about things on an _institutional_ level, and i do it poorly sometimes and it comes out as looking like i have something against the individual people. which i don't. i mean i don't have anything more against catholics than i do against, say, harry potter fans. the harry potter books, i haven't read them, but i'm sure they're fine books. they're important to a lot of people. it's just that, you know, supporting harry potter, it hurts people who don't deserve to be hurt, whether one _wants_ to hurt them or not. (and yes, i am drawing a direct equivalence between harry potter fandom and the roman catholic church. fuck it.)

feeling emotional and heartfelt at darragh’s post. last line a real killer.

hey my dad loathed religion all his life but still got a priest in at his deathbed. and i don’t think it was a pascal’s wager thing. not in the sense it’s commonly meant. and his mum was a lovely kind irish catholic married to a nasty disciplinarian by all accounts. both devout far as it goes. only one of them good.

community and communion probably meant something to them both but as darragh says, not sure the rules meant as much as all that.

❤️ fizzles

otm

hey my dad loathed religion all his life but still got a priest in at his deathbed. and i don’t think it was a pascal’s wager thing. not in the sense it’s commonly meant. and his mum was a lovely kind irish catholic married to a nasty disciplinarian by all accounts. both devout far as it goes. only one of them good.

community and communion probably meant something to them both but as darragh says, not sure the rules meant as much as all that.

― Fizzles

mmmm. i do feel differently about it.

my dad has a cross on his gravestone. i don't think it was catholic. he loathed religion all his life, and at the end, when he was alone, there was a lady who was there for him, to be his friend, and she converted him. that's what she _does_ with her life. and, i mean, i'm glad she was there for him. i'm glad she could get through to him when i couldn't. he buried himself in shame about abandoning us, about being a shitty dad, and poured it all out to her at the end. and it would have been nice. it would have been nice if he could have told me when he was alive. if i didn't have to get it secondhand. and for all that i'm grateful it seems... it feels _transactional_. to me, the cross, it corrupts, it debases, what i truly believe was this woman's genuine love, her genuine compassion.

that's the other thing about being a catholic, my grandfather's favorite movie was _a man for all seasons_, and it's a great film. it's one of those films where catholicism and leftism converge, i think, the film is a leftist film but it's a leftist take on catholic belief. and one of the things that i was taught about it, growing up - i didn't see it for a long time, but i was _taught_ about it - was that it wasn't enough to do the right thing, that there was a question of _why_, _why_ a person did something. that thomas more struggled with that. and no matter how good my dad's friend was, no matter how much it was _right_, the fact that on some level she was doing it to "win souls for christ"... i don't think that reflects badly on her. i think that reflects badly on _christ_. he has no _right_. no right to my dad's soul. that cross on my dad's grave marker is a lie. and a god, a church, a religion, that is willing to _accept_ that lie...

well, it's like Robert Wyatt sang on "Alliance" (_Old Rottenhat_, 1984):

It's hard to talk to enemies. We are enemies. What we had in common makes it even worse...

In truth, my values are as Catholic as anyone's. I believe in the power of forgiveness, truly believe in it. Not just for the sake others. For for my own sake, for my own _soul_. Forgiveness, for me, it's putting down a burden, letting go of that compulsion to distance, to wariness. The need for _vigilance_. I've had to be vigilant so often, about so many things. I have to be vigilant far too often now. I hate all of the things I have to see, I have to know.

Because I can't forgive. Not like, refuse, I believe, believe in my heart, that it's not possible. Not possible for me to forgive someone for something they don't believe was _wrong_. All I can do in that case is make excuses. All I can do is cape.

The thing about having 1.35billion adherents, is you're going to be able to find whatever you're looking for within that communion, good and bad.

I grew up in a fairly strict American Catholic setting. After my mom died, The Young Pope denied my dad's 2nd wife an annulment on her first marriage, so my dad stopped going to mass entirely.

On one hand, I respect it. On the other hand, hey what now?

That sucks. Most of the Catholics I know are either priests or seminarians or lay people with Bachelors in Theology. They are all, of the ones I know well, lovely, caring, sacrificial, forgiving people. I think seriosly studying the tenets of Christ and the Church sifts the grain from the chaff (for the most part)

Last I heard there were about 1 billion Catholics in the world. That number has certainly been inflated to include anyone raised Catholic or otherwise claimable by the church, but it suggests to me that anecdotal evidence about the nature of Catholic individuals is likely to run the full gamut from truly unrecognized saints to the worst people ion earth.

Was raised Catholic growing up and was probably one of the model examples - taught Sunday school, Catholic summer camps, altar boy, etc. Maybe it was just the church groups we attended, but none of the more detestable aspects of the church were apparent or just leaned into through it all. I stopped attending as soon as I hit college because I think there were people involved that were more representative of Christianity as a whole that turned me off. That idea that "I can behave terribly but I'll be fine because I go to church and God always forgives" started becoming more noticeable in my later teen years when it seemed like the more reasonable option was to JUST BE NICE to people.

Was raised Catholic growing up and was probably one of the model examples - taught Sunday school, Catholic summer camps, altar boy, etc. Maybe it was just the church groups we attended, but none of the more detestable aspects of the church were apparent or just leaned into through it all. I stopped attending as soon as I hit college because I think there were people involved that were more representative of Christianity as a whole that turned me off. That idea that "I can behave terribly but I'll be fine because I go to church and God always forgives" started becoming more noticeable in my later teen years when it seemed like the more reasonable option was to JUST BE NICE to people.

A lot of this is my story too. I was an altar boy, I went to CYO, I went on Catholic youth retreats, I went to an all-boys' Catholic high school for two years. I never had any bad experiences through any of it; I guess I just wasn't any of my local priests' type, because at least two of them were defrocked or quit the church later. One moved to Las Vegas and got murdered one morning by a guy he'd molested years earlier. Anyway, I stopped going to church when I moved out of my mom's house at 18 — I'd long since drifted away from any kind of Christian belief and into reading about other stuff (Zen, Taoism, the usual shit). These days my "beliefs," such as they are, are a kind of personal amalgam of Zen, Taoism, Stoicism, and Norse/Asatru values — blood, honor, manliness, but without all the stuff about the gods.

My mom is still very much Catholic; she does the readings at her church just about every week, and does a lot of charity work — drives meals to the elderly, does people's taxes for free, maybe some other stuff too. She acknowledges all the shitty things the Church and her alma mater, Penn State, have done, but it neither invalidates her engineering degree nor impacts her faith.

similar for my dad, who was born and raised Catholic. He joined the Knights of Columbus after he retired and all the kids left the house. I don't ask too much about it but as far as I know that's mainly been a social thing for him.

I know he has some old-school thoughts about women that aren't as severe as other people, and he's been called out by my sister, so I've never felt like piling on to what's probably an in-grained lost cause. But he was never a Jesus-first parent - which I really appreciate looking back.

perhaps Heez hasn't finished Home Alone. Marley and his son forgive each other at the end.

well, my Methodist-turned-Catholic mom took me to see Home Alone when it was originally out in theaters, and I'll cherish that time and parenting decision forever.

Bob marleys in home alone?!? Ok I’ll finish it.

I grew up Lutheran in the south. It was extremely chill. Church camps all that stuff. Not much guilt or anything like that. My mother and father are still Christian but they do not go to the same church nor do they vote for the same party. My mom prefers the activist, community oriented side of the church while my dad prefers the traditional side. The south is mostly are up of baptist and evangelicals who believe in the gospel of prosperity and rarely do community outreach.

I now live near DC in a neighborhood filled with federalist society lawyers who rarely engage with their non-Catholic neighbors. I also know a lot more of the New England Catholics, well former Catholics, who are some of the best ppl I know, but seem extremely damaged by the church and their strictly religious parents.

Anyway Catholicism has come to represent this very corrupted version of religion that you either walk lockstep with or fight against. And yes, I understand my small neighborhood doesn’t represent the entirety of Catholicism, so I’m mainly just asking questions, be it from a very skewed place

The thing about having 1.35billion adherents, is you're going to be able to find whatever you're looking for within that communion, good and bad.

― H.P

sure. 1.35 billion adherents is a lot. i don't need to play diogenes looking for a Good Catholic. they're all over the place.

one pope, though. one college of cardinals. all men, all celibate, or pretending to be. one Young archbishop of Portland, denouncing "gender ideology", issuing edicts forbidding teachers in Catholic schools from referring to trans kids by their _names_, from gendering them correctly.

one man. how many children? how many fucking kids is this one man abusing, and nobody says anything, nobody _does_ anything, it's _fine_ because he does it in the name of _Christ_, he does it in the name of the Roman Catholic Church?

-

I can't... I can't talk about what it was like for me, growing up Catholic. How it affected me. I try, but I can't. It hurts too much. Sorry. Y'all... I think y'all talking, I really would _like_ for y'all to know. But I can't tell you. Maybe someday. The most I can do is jump off Heez here:

I also know a lot more of the New England Catholics, well former Catholics, who ... seem extremely damaged by the church and their strictly religious parents.

My Catholic roots are Midwestern. Brahmin-y, but Midwestern. My parents, my mom's parents... I don't think of them as "strictly religious" either. I went to Catholic school, Catholic college, church every Sunday, but I don't think of my upbringing as "strictly religious" in the "women with exposed ankles are immodest" sense. Have I been extremely damaged by the Church and my parents? Absolutely.

I can't say more than that right now. I wish I could. I don't believe in... I don't believe in the culture of _silence_ I was raised in. I really want to speak up. I just can't right now. I'm sorry.