boundaries

Not at all - I’m most comfortable where there are clear and formal role distinctions, whether I’m the teacher or the server.

No, it's a great idea! frankly I still do love teaching people, even if the company I do it for frustrates me, and it does give you a different dynamic to work with that might help a more fluid communication and help wipe away some of the confusions or frustrations that exist with these people and groups.

as far as not being good at it, I think it just takes a lot of time to get there. I was a reallllllly bad trainer like, people that I trained back between 2006 - 2009 would laugh if I told them at the time that I'd pursue doing this full-time. it just took a lot of trial and error and feedback, and pre-practice before sessions.

but it sounds like an innovative way to problem solve on your team and I think it could definitely work!

thank you! I am trying to alleviate anxiety on my part by thinking of it like I'm playing a show. If students don't show up, or if things don't jibe, then at least I've shown up and done my set, and I can work on doing better next time ... and it isn't like this is for any sort of certification for anyone and the stakes are fairly low?

exactly. it being a performance helps a lot with the anxiety. I tapped into my theatre skills a lot and it helped me not take things personal.

i looked mighty dumb but there was one time I taught a class I had never taught before, and for 8 hours the day before I walked around the room saying the material so that instead of it sounding memorized, I was talking off of the top of my head and making it conversational, and it helped a lot the next day.

like, going back to LL's Girls Rock Camp presentation where she quoted me, I will play a bag of potato chips as an instrument.

Neando -- I definitely am realizing that a key to doing this well is preparation. One of my potential students is a clothing designer/seamstress as a creative hobby ... and I have been thinking about how accounting in Quickbooks Online is similar to making a garment.

Exactly!! You also have to accept that there will be nerves whether it’s a performance or a teaching role. Being prepared and having a plan helps a lot w that. I always try to remember that no one wants an anxious teacher (or an anxious drummer!!)

Also the similarities between volunteer coordination and teaching ... like, you kinda need to have ideas for tasks and how to do them prepared in advance, so you can ask, "who wants to do this?" And then they will inevitably ask, "What exactly do I have to do?" ... And then "ta da!" you have materials on hand to explain the task and hand it off to them.

xpost honestly infusing humor and being corny is how I deal with my nerves. like...I tell bad jokes on purpose in class, and if I make a mistake, I don't belabor it or draw attention to it, but some light self-deprecating humor is fun and relatable ("hmm I can't speak today!").

LL very much otm.

let us know how this works out if you do go that route. i think it's an awesome idea.

I mean, I've done volunteer coordination before but it has always been very concrete things like "paint a wall" or "take money at the door" or "sell beverages at the prices listed on this piece of paper" ... this is slightly more complex work

thanks y'all for yr support

oh and my best volunteer coordination task -- "all of this stuff over here is garbage, load it into this guy's truck and he is going to take it to the dump"

Gyac -

I'm responding to you on that alleged 'joke grievance' that you insist on bringing up on other threads (crossing boundaries in fact):

For boundaries to work, you have to enforce them...

Many relationships seem to have more complicated arrangements than the Northern Ireland protocol, and with a greater variety of 'no hard border' and 'backstop' solutions, and protracted negotiations and threats to trigger unilateral dissolution.

What I am saying is not entirely a poor joke - what I am saying is that if you identify hard boundaries, and insist on actively them, I can see this getting very protracted, involved, bureaucratic - and unpleasant. I'm wondering it's actually worth it.

To be clear- I didn't hold a grudge on your post for a year or whatever. I simply found my post again when the thread was revived - and noted that you hadn't grasped what I said.

By the way, I wonder if the irony has occurred to you that you were 'hard policing' a boundaries thread with your comments.

may the conflict over this post not last as long as the referent

Has anyone got any good tips for dealing with persistent interruptions? I work in teaching, so of course interruption is woven into the fabric of the job. On a given day, outside of the usual madness of lessons, I might get visited by upwards of 10 kids who just want to check in, which is fine. But it's the stuff after school when I might have an hour/hour and a half to get prepared for the next day and it's just relentless - and complicated by the fact that it's not one person (to whom I could say, 'look, any chance?'), but multiple people, none of whom are really aware that I've just got rid of the last person. I guess I have an approachable demeanour, which is fine, but short of a sign on the door saying 'leave me alone' the only real tactic I have is to get grumpy. Today, I went and hid in another room and got so much done. HELP.

Can you do your wrap-up work from home or do you have to sit in the office til 4:30

I mean a sign is perfectly reasonable also imo. Come on in/knock/do not disturb/out. Seen those a million times in my life!

A set time for office hours on your door and otherwise not available? A sign up sheet?

There's a weird grey area in teaching (in UK schools, anyway) where you're free to go at 3.30 and no one will judge you but 'oh, you're the kind of person who goes at 3.30 are you?' is absolutely a thing. Eh. Plus, I've set myself a boundary, that I stay at work and get finished up so that I don't let it bleed into my home life, because will it ever if I let it.

And the sign is fine, but certain people - senior management, lolbantz colleagues - would totally ignore it: the former, fine, that's expected; the latter would make it a point to come in and talk to me about the sign and I'm back to being grumpy. ARGH.

Interruptions by colleagues rather than pupils, right?

I actually think about this gif all the time
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2018-11/28/13/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-02/anigif_sub-buzz-11354-1543428630-7.gif

Not just cos it’s amazing (though it is) but as a slightly unusual example of enforcing personal boundaries in a way most people are going to have trouble responding to. The interviewer asks Mariah about JLo, who Mariah hates; Mariah just breezes straight through with “I don’t know her.” What are you going to say to that? Can you prove it? Are you going to call out someone saying something so brazen? No, most people won’t want to get drawn into awkwardness. The conversation moves on.

Anyway in this situation you can probably take a leaf from Mariah’s book - less is more. It might take a while and it depends on what the interruptions are.

You can gesture at whatever you’re working on and smile sweetly (if you can do this, I personally can’t) and say “really sorry, can I come back to you, I’ve just got to finish…”. The trailing sentence is important! Don’t specify! There are two reasons: 1) it may not be any of their business and 2) you want to cut the conversation short and not give them an opening to ask about what you’re working on. It’s really important to be nice but firm about it.

It’s probably not useful for you but in my circumstances if I have time to volunteer to help people at other times then I’ll do so, purely so when I say no, they know that you are the kind of person who will help, crucially, if you have time.

Headphones are usually a good “don’t bother me” signal but you will ofc run into people who cheerfully ignore this. Might not be appropriate in your workplace either.

Oh yeah and importance of saying along the lines of “I’ll come back to you” factors into Mariah example. You may have zero intention of doing so, especially if it’s a trivial interruption, but it softens the excuse and it actually works with your reason: if you don’t come back to them on their timetable, you can simply point to the thing you’re working on (sorry, you know how it is!) & eventually they may get the message. Either way it’s good to get practice at saying no.

That all makes a lot of sense, gyac. And I'm here for a Mariah solution. I like the 'playing the long game' vibe of it. I do that 'turn back to my computer and just get on with it' thing but, it's either all teachers or I work with a particularly thick-skinned subset of teachers, my colleagues have a remarkable facility for just carrying on rabbiting at me.

I'm second in the department, so it is sometimes work-related, which is obviously fine; but mostly I think it's either a) someone avoiding making a decision and fixing it through me or b) plain boredom/distractedness.

If you’ve ever been on the tube at night & had someone fall asleep on you, I liken the kind of people who cheerfully ignore these signals to people slightly impaired from drink. They probably don’t mean any harm but they don’t know what they’re doing and you don’t want them in your way, right? So the gentlest nudge to move them on. That’s why it’s important you say “Sorry can I come back to you…” cos it makes it impossible for them to ignore the other signals you’re sending out.

and, if you let it slide enough times without pushback, eventually it can become a much more angry "leave me alone" that comes out of you out of nowhere as the frustration builds up and isn't processed.

i was pleasantly surprised the first few times I said "I actually am a bit tied up at the moment" gently how well it was received. sure, every now and then someone gets cranky about it but wasn't very often.

Amen gyac.

I've got a sense of being much better at putting boundaries in place as I get older. I've stopped commenting on a bunch of different WhatsApp groups, and have stopped going to a bunch of things I used to out of duty, and I honestly don't miss any of it but I do get a twinge of worry sometimes, and am conscious of becoming an 'only on my terms' guy and isolating myself. I don't know. Does that ring true with anyone else?

You make it sound eminently achievable, Neanderthal, which is totally what I need to hear!

I do that 'turn back to my computer and just get on with it' thing but

genuine pro tip, stop turning away from your computer when you dont eant to be disturbed

its something i was told a few years ago, working in an open office, and it's a genuine game changer

i am way too hungover to have boundaries convos with not one but two people today. jfc.

somewhat shockingly though I remained calm through it and weirdly perversely enjoyed it the second time.

what it tells me is that these people are used to having people in their life who are willing to shit on their own needs to appease these people

i have realized after 3 years of covid, that if i am not physically in the same place as someone, it's really easy to ignore them ... also, if i am in the same place as them (this doesn't work if you live with the other person), it is fairly easy to leave because there's this thing you have to do for someone else.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/14/what-are-relationship-boundaries-jonah-hill

It's amusing AF when the people who tried to puppeteer me when I was in a serious wave of depression recoil now that I've been putting a stop to it since I've been feeling better in the last week.

I don't get it. I'm by far not a perfect person but there is zero part of me that would ever want to see a friend loved one only through the lens of what they could do for me.

the neighbour who lives across the landing from us is a perfectly fine normal woman for the majority of times, but every few months, maybe a dozen times a year, she will have a bad weekend and decide to get absolutely wasted on wine. She'll chap our door when she's already drunk and ask me to go sit with her for a bit so we can have a chat. I've done it a few times, out of kindness. But I can't always drop my evening, and I don't want to sit drinking on a night when I'm working the next day, and crucially I just do not want to do it sometimes, which is a valid reason itself.

Tonight has been one of those nights. She chapped the door. I told a white lie and said we were expecting visitors and said it wouldn't suit but maybe we could get together through the week. She called, texted and knocked the door. I went out, and said nicely but firmly that tonight simply wouldn't work, and closed the door. A couple more texts and another knock at the door. I went back out and this time said sternly, tonight isn't happening, and closed the door right over before anything else could be said. Now I'm getting cheeky text messages about how I'm "just like the rest of them" and "not to be trusted" and accusing me of lying about having a job (?!?).

I just want to relax on a Sunday evening with some music and a bar of chocolate, I don't want to have serious conversations with someone too drunk to make sense. I refuse to feel guilty about wanting to spend my time on my own terms. But trying to set and enforce this boundary is draining. I'm sat waiting and expecting another message or chap at the door, and dreading the awkward small-talk next time I see her in the gardens or the shop.

That sucks. The first time that happens it sorta feels like one is doing a good community service by listening to someone who needs to talk.

The 15th time, when one realizes that it's always the same talk and this will keep happening until someone puts a stop to it, is a drag.

It doesn’t apply to me but I think it’s great that my fine state has legislation about not requiring workers to be available by phone 24/7

since Dad has died, of course mom is receiving a fuck ton less social security, as she gets the greater of what dad got and what she was getting, not both.

I was very lenient for a while with helping financially after he died, as was my brother, but the same bullshit behavior has crept back in. mom got hired by a teaching assistance service, that she worked for pre-Dad's disability. She signed up for about 8 shifts since she's started - she bailed on 4 of them, which cost her probably $300-$400, while owing my brother and I money. She couldn't finish paying for my brother's rehearsal dinner, as I expected she wouldn't, so I did it to save it for my brother. I basically blew through $1,500 in a very short period of time thanks to his wedding and helping.

She quit paying her debt relief program on the advice of a lawyer. she's getting sued now thanks to that. she can't file for Chapter 7 because she just did 6 years ago. lotta good it did her and dad - they were racking up toxic debt within minutes of it being discharged last time. can't file again until 2026, and they told her Chapter 13 would kill her financially.

as usual, being her roommate, I'm the one who deals with it every month. Every month, she gets her social security. Every month, it's gone within days thanks to her bills and lack of other income, as well as the toxic debt she took on. every month she tries to find a way to afford expenses and pay bills for three weeks with no money and inevitably at around 11 pm one night every month comes the "can I ask you for a favor" msg.

my brother and I told her we can't do this or our futures will be ruined, and he's married now. I just escaped a near disaster but will be right back there if I'm not careful - I basically ripped through $1,500 thanks to my bro's wedding. This time around, mom's promising to work it out on her own, and insisting for me and my bro not to help, but I don't trust her. she would not do the GoFundMe I insisted she do a few months ago due to 'pride', but didn't have any issue asking my brother and I for money that same month. and the stress weighs on me a lot because I'm in a bit of a captive situation because anything that causes her not to be able to pay her rent means that I have to pay it or I get evicted too. so far that hasn't happened.

the boundaries aren't the hard part. it's the exhaustion of enforcing them, and the second-guessing after. right now I'm feeling shitty like I should be offering to help while the other side of my brain KNOWS it's the wrong thing to do, KNOWS I go to bed and fight heart palpitations most nights worried about how long the money I came into will last and whether I'll make it through the debt management program or wind up filing bankruptcy anyway.

like this isn't something that sprouted up yesterday, it's been going on for 25 years. I love my mother dearly but...this has caused an immeasurable amount of strain on my brother and I for over half of our lives, and we were too naive to stop it early on. he wound up on antidepressants and going to therapy himself, largely due to it.

I confronted my folks several times, practically calling in tears once to say I couldn't take it anymore, them saying I was 'heard', only to just go back to trying to cross my boundary and hope I didn't push back.

at least so far this month, I'm holding firm, as is my bro. but it's not like peace comes with that.

my mom keeps also saying that one of us should just take control of her finances, and I keep saying "why should I have to do that? I am stressed enough handling my own". not to mention there's nothing to 'take control' of. right now, significantly more money goes out than comes in. it doesn't take a math degree to know that unless you somehow reverse that algebra, you can't pay your bills. there is no amount of cutting back that will stop it.

so I'm mentally steeling myself up now for the moment sometime later this week when mom says "I know I said I was going to try to figure this out on my own, BUT...", and doing exercises and rehearsing what I'm going to say to hold firm and not budge. if I wind up in financial ruin by my late 40s, well....my self-destructive behavior of the last 3 years is going to look like a cakewalk compared to what comes after that. will be amazed if I don't have my first heart attack before I'm 50.

Dude (Neaderthal), reading your post with compassion... (I'll move my troubles over from the family estrangement post because this is probably a more appropriate thread)

Like I mentioned earlier about my sister, it just feels like a runaway train and you can't stop its trajectory.. all you can do is get out of the way

I'm able to push off my sister's requests because she's in her late fifties but it has to be much harder when it's your own mom... ugh

Update on my sitch: I'm getting unexpected phone calls from beloved cousins I rarely speak in person with (Minnesota, now Colorado): "So Andy, good to speak with you.. I wish I was calling under better circumstances" etc. And then they ask what the fuck is going on with my loser sister, my cousin in Colorado was like "well, I guess I'm supposed to pick her up at Amtrak tomorrow morning, she said she's been drinking beer on the train, is that normal?" And like I'm dreading that she's heading west to California to show up at my door broke and drunk. She has (apparently) no income whatsoever, and just bailed on her house when the eviction sheriffs showed up, presumably leaving her broken-down truck in the driveway in Missouri and probably releasing her cat into a forest, I have not a clue what her plan is. But she's involving all these other family members who haven't seen her in a decade or more, they've all been very compassionate and describe the other black sheep in the fam.. but it's still kind of embarrassing

But I've put my proverbial foot down: I could foresee helping with a security deposit for an apartment or something, but no more shut-off utilities, car trouble, behind on rent, etc. She's three years older than me but she acts like she's ready for a 100% unfunded retirement

since Dad has died, of course mom is receiving a fuck ton less social security, as she gets the greater of what dad got and what she was getting, not both.

Is this right? I feel like my mom collects my dad's SS checks (he died in 2003) and her own. I hope she's not running some kind of scam...

ex won't get the hint I don't want to be friends. like we had a tumultuous relationship. blah blah, and several times over the last several months, I have tried to underline that it's not working for us to be friends. you know the kind of friends minus the sticky, messiness of longing and desire. finally, a week-ish ago, I wrote a letter and clearly stated my position though I was tender; but essentially said, we can't be friends. He continues to disregard my letter- actually, he didn't even address or respond to the letter and continues to act nonchalantly and cavalier with me. striking up a glib conversation. anyway annoying is what it's become and kind of offensive

Pepper spray.

After trying to be gentle and sensitive for a bit, eventually I told an ex: "I DON'T LIKE YOU AS A PERSON DON'T CALL ME ANYMORE" and hung up on them. That did it.

don't know how people can carry on with this odd, borderline psychotic, entitlement to be in other people's space. I'm very much a stay-in-my-own-zone kind of person, if I even get the slightest hint that someone doesn't want to talk to me I will back off immediately and probably never engage with them again, or at least give it a few years! But showing up on people's doorsteps and imposing yourself on ppl who are not close or even comfortable with your presence is completely fucked up behaviour.

it must be terrible for their own self-esteem as well as the victim

I think some people just don't like to be the " bad guy" so to speak and want to have everything wrapped up in a little bow. he has this idea we can be friends. I can't see loving him as a friend, for the foreseeable future. I think it's foolish to try to push us in that direction. we should not absolve ourselves of the pain we caused each other.

I love this person and hold so many sentiments of love for them but I just want the messiness to end.

my friend named him "Mr. five star"

back to the drawing board

I had an ex like this, where we didn't have a bad relationship, but we were a bad fit and we broke up and like a day later she was saying she was upset that I didn't see more upset by the breakup and kept texting me "I still miss u" (even though she initiated the breakup, I just didn't protest much). and one day I said "Please leave me alone. I told you I don't want to get back together, and none of these 11 pm text messages are going to change that, and it's fucked to keep trying to guilt me into it". and she went dead silent...for two weeks, until she asked ot hang out and said she might kill herself soon.

i actually accepted that time but kept a big distance, said we were just friends, and offered support from a big distance. then never saw her again. she's married now and I'm legit happy she found someone that's right for her.

but sometimes you gotta be the bad cop in those situations, when the politeness doesn't take.

calzino also otm, like the easiest way to get me to go away is just give the slightest hint that I bother you. I disappeared for like two years from this place due to that.

(there, now you all know how to get rid of me, get to it)

The kind of behavior being described here is boldly manipulative. And not ok. Next step is them getting mad and casting themselves as a victim DARVO-style. We all have exhibited problematic behavior at some point in our lives, I’m sure, no one is perfect, but it does help to be able to identify/recognize manipulation if you’re aiming to maintain a boundary that you set.

it is, for sure.

lmao...so mom took i to initiative today and started resuming driving Uber Eats after a several year absence. awesome! and got herself a marathon gig to work! alright, we're cooking now.

then floats the idea 'OOOOH MAYBE I CAN DO SEVERAL DELIVERIES AT DINNER AND YOU CAN HELP ME WITH THEM'. (this being because she can't drive at night due to her glaucoma)

......

had to respond back to her for her to hear the absurdity - "so...to clarify...you want me to essentially get a second job, outright eliminating any free time I have to wind down after my actual job, one in which I won't get paid anything for? Or...just maybe...you could do this during the day, while I'm working?". it was immediately dropped after I phrased it that way.

i swear.

(she probably wants this as Dad used to help her years ago before his stroke, but Dad was the type of guy who would sacrifice all of himself for his family, and that's probably one reason he wound up wearing down so fast).

-i to