Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame Nominees 2023

That seems almost as stark a split a Joy Division/New Order--fanciful mods to carousing bar band.

but I recall one time where he dismissed Otis Redding as overrated because his influence wasn't as noticeable as Marvin Gaye's

In addition to being wrong, it’s also pretty unfair, given how much shorter Redding’s career was. And DeRo blaming Redding for DeRo not being able to spot his influence is pretty rich.

What the fuck is going on with Outkast still not being nominated

Should Mac have had three inductions: Green/Spencer/Kirwan, Kirwan/weston, and then Buckingham/Nicks?

One argument in favor of that - it emphasizes that Green’s FM is a great group in its own right. Not news to any of us but I’m stunned how they’ve been marginalized to some extent in the U.S. Their work hasn’t been mastered or reissued properly like it has overseas, and even print publications here treat them like a footnote. I saw a Fleetwood Mac special on the rack, ostensibly covering their entire history, and there was barely much coverage at all on Peter Green et al.

Never even heard of The Spinners

Think I'll go with Kate Bush

Never even heard of The Spinners

they'll be around

like a record baby

Can’t remember where I read this, but during an early ‘80s P-Funk arena show, at the height of an all-hands-on-deck extravaganza, 40 people on stage, lights, confetti…suddenly, everything stopped dead and the lights went out. A single spotlight appeared on stage, and Philippé Wynne walked out in full tuxedo with white tails and sang “A Change Is Gonna Come.”

Also Joy Division/New Order should be in separately but I guess somebody was looking for something that would finally do the trick.

Did the trick for me! The two of them separately up against the rest of this list, I would have had a harder time. But together it's like, nobody else here should get in before them.

The Spinners should have been the first Philly Soul artists in the HOF. It’s strange they’re still waiting but the O’Jays have been there for a long while now. Similarly how has King Crimson been overlooked when they should have been the first progressive rock band in the HOF.

"Should have" is a discussion for a Hall of Merit. A Hall of Fame is going to be as fickle and arbitrary as fame itself.

If we treat every band according to what it deserves, whomst should scape whipping? - Oscar Marley Einstein (I think)

Fame alone doesn't cut it - else Weird Al Yankovic, Scooter and J-Lo would be in already. There has to be some sort of gravitas.

For the rest:

Maiden is a shoo-in

Willie Nelson, hell why not if Cash and Dolly are already in

Kate Bush and Missy Elliott look more likely to me than Sheryl Crow and Cyndi Lauper?

Soundgarden, White Stripes and Rage Against The Machine in before an institution like Motörhead seems wrong but that's what it is - I think Soundgarden will get it

ATCQ, fine with me but surely there are higher profile hip-hop artists that should go before them? Wu Tang? Snoop?

Of the 80s stars, I get the feeling that JD/NO stock has been gradually decreasing over the past decades, and George Michael has risen but where we are now, no idea

Warren Zevon probably has the lowest name recognition of this bunch? That probably hurts his chances.

The Spinners, as the oldest act in this list, may not have enough passionate fans left to make the push?

the most r&rhof thing to do would have been to only nominate/induct one of jd/no so i'm disappointed in then

Of 90s/00s groups I think it's unconceivable that Soundgarden, White Stripes, or RATM might actually get voted in before Smashing Pumpkins are even nominated, but I guess I'm odd that way.

Corgan will get in as a living exhibit

I was on a Zoom call with three rock-critic-type friends last night (all of us 55-65), and going through the list, the greatest consensus was for Missy Elliott, Joy Division/New Order, Cyndi Lauper, and the Spinners. My one friend wanted to put everyone in, prompting another to say that if you put in Sheryl Crow, you may as well put in Tommy Tutone. Which was harsh but made laugh.

allow me to think that the tommy tutone comment came from xhuxk.

If Maiden doesn't get in should rebrand it POSER HALL OF FAME

i mean soundgarden is a way better band than smashing pumpkins so there is that

Boom

I like SP but Soundgarden is at a higher level

TSF: no, all-Canadian call. And guessing that Chuck'd be okay with Tommy in there!

Thought some more about my own first post above, and subjectively, I think I'd replace Zevon with either Kate Bush or Cyndi Lauper if I could only pick five. I think Zevon should go in (surprised he's not in already), but for myself, I don't know much beyond the two albums I have (first two), and if I match the three songs I love ("Werewolves of London," "Lawyers, Guns and Money," and "Poor Poor Pitiful Me") against "Cloudbusting/The Man with the Child in His Eyes"/"Running Up that Hill" or "Time After Time/Girls Just Wanna Have Fun/Money Changes Everything," I'd give the edge to Bush or Lauper.

Not to be Cap'n Save-a-Sheryl but her career has been longer and more hit-studded than that of Mr. Tutone. She had eight years with a dozen charting singles and ten charting albums.

He had exactly two of each.

I think he was exaggerating for comic effect.

(Tommy Tutone had a second hit?)

i saw sheryl in a giant field in central park with big swooping tv cameras all over the place and, like, keith richards and everything. i saw the guitarist who wrote that tommy tutone song play to a motley group of townies sitting in folding chairs in downtown glen cove. https://patch.com/new-york/glencove/sidemen-featuring-legendary-uptown-horns-play-glen-cove-july-8th-0

When Le Tigre announced their upcoming reunion tour recently, they tweeted, "Tell your mom and her friends! We're going on tour!"

"Your mom and her friends" is the perfect description of Sheryl Crow's audience. She's a major artist.

I was on a Zoom call with three rock-critic-type friends last night (all of us 55-65), and going through the list, the greatest consensus was for Missy Elliott, Joy Division/New Order, Cyndi Lauper, and the Spinners. My one friend wanted to put everyone in, prompting another to say that if you put in Sheryl Crow, you may as well put in Tommy Tutone. Which was harsh but made laugh.

LMAO, spot on. I agree, except for Sheryl Crow I'd like to see everyone else get in. Maybe it could be an Oprah-type surprise - "You get in! You get in! Every-body gets in the Hall (but Crow)!"

clemenza, per wiki he actually had a FIRST hit before Jenny

but yeah, I presume someone making this argument is exaggerating

For all arguments of the form "why ___ but not ___," or "why ___ before ___," I will revert to tapping the sign that says "yes it is arbitrary and capricious and fickle; so is fame; so are all human constructs." Because it is done by ballot and by humans, it will inevitably exhibit all the flaws of said humans. To wit, being arbitrary and capricious and fickle and - GASP - inconsistent.

Honestly it's either this discourse, or the aforementioned "set this stupid institution and everything associated with it on fire and decre that this misguided enterprise should have been drowned in (conveniently nearby) Lake Erie before it even had a chance to impinge on our conscious minds with its ridiculously arbitrary and capricious and fickle nature."

Sheryl Crow is probably closer to Mellencamp than Tutone if we’re talking longevity and cultural relevance

The friend who wanted Sheryl Crow in, she was his second choice and he made a pretty impassioned case for her, mentioning a couple of songs I didn't know at all. I do like "Every Day Is a Winding Road." "All I Wanna Do," too, though not as much. Always hated the way she sings "This is L.A.," like I'm too much a rube to understand.

Crow's influence is more pronounced than ever.

Soundgarden def better than SPs IMO, just a massive beast of a band, far better than anyone might remember, this almost liquid heavy sound that was so dense and dark, not the same style at all but some of the peaks of badmotorfinger give me the same feeling as the most out there live jam albums of miles Davis and co from the ‘70s.

o t m

I always took crow saying “this is l.a.” as not an explanation but an slightly stoned exclamation of wonder

Mellencamp's HOF argument really rests on a few records, but I think they had a much more substantial impact than Crow's. He also doesn't have the ugly controversy with Kevin Gilbert et al hanging over his head - it was kind of the opposite where his real breakthrough came from asserting more control over his own work and career.

This may not be up to date, but it's a pretty detailed list of artists not in, how many years they've been eligible, and how many times they've been nominated before:

https://futurerocklegends.com/The_Snub_List/

i saw sheryl in a giant field in central park with big swooping tv cameras
i saw the guitarist who wrote that tommy tutone song play to a motley group of townies

...and it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall

Genuine Lol

haha

Interesting find, clem ... The never-nommed list and how long they've been eligible is pretty eye-opening

Johnny Burnette and the Rock N Roll Trio	42
Connie Francis	40
Jan & Dean	38
Dick Dale	36
Peter, Paul & Mary	36
Toots & the Maytals	36
Barry White	35
Cher	33
The Guess Who	33
The Sonics	33
Captain Beefheart	32
Jim Croce	32
Love	32
The Monkees	32
Scott Walker	32
Tommy James & the Shondells	32
Harry Nilsson	31
Can	30
Jethro Tull	30
Silver Apples	30
The Carpenters	29
King Crimson	29
Kool & the Gang	29
Nick Drake	29
Three Dog Night	29
Diana Ross	28
Emerson, Lake & Palmer	28
Sparks	27
Big Star	26
Blue Öyster Cult	26
Neu!	26
The Pointer Sisters	25
Bad Company	24
Brian Eno	24
The Commodores	24
Television	23
The Damned	22
The Runaways	22
Björk	21
The Buzzcocks	21
The Jam	21
Suicide	21
XTC	21
The B-52's	20
Black Flag	20
Siouxsie & the Banshees	20
X	20
Bauhaus	19
The Dead Kennedys	19
Echo and the Bunnymen	19
The Specials	19
"Weird Al" Yankovic	19
INXS	18
Ozzy Osbourne	18
Billy Idol	17
Hüsker Dü	17
Mötley Crüe	17
New Order	17
Sonic Youth	16
Pantera	15
Slayer	15
The Flaming Lips	14
The Jesus and Mary Chain	14
Nick Cave	14
Pet Shop Boys	14
Sade	14
Faith No More	13
Megadeth	13
My Bloody Valentine	13
Stone Roses	13
Gloria Estefan	11
Pixies	11
De La Soul	10
Fugazi	10
Massive Attack	10
The Offspring	10
Pavement	9
Queen Latifah	9
Alice In Chains	8
Blur	8
Mariah Carey	8
Smashing Pumpkins	8
Aphex Twin	7
PJ Harvey	7
Tori Amos	7
Nas	6
Stone Temple Pilots	6
TLC	6
Tool	6
Wu-Tang Clan	6
Outkast	5
Daft Punk	4
Oasis	4
Sleater-Kinney	4
Weezer	4
Wilco	4
The Chemical Brothers	3
Belle & Sebastian	2
Queens of the Stone Age	1

A bunch of those would probably be in already if there was a larger British or European presence in the committee and voting pools.

Guessing Scott Walker, Fairport Convention, Can, King Crimson, Nick Drake, Sparks, Neu!, Brian Eno, Television, The Damned, Wire, The Buzzcocks, The Jam, XTC, Echo and the Bunnymen, The Specials, The Smiths, New Order, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Nick Cave, Pet Shop Boys, Stone Roses, Massive Attack, Blur and PJ Harvey among many others.

However will Cher and Brian Eno and Massive Attack and Sleater-Kinney survive without the recognition of the HoF? One wonders. Perhaps they are weeping now about the sting of this unconscionable snub. Or maybe (like sensible people) they understand that is a very silly circular conversation and are glad not to have to pretend it is something else, even for an evening.

I think Greil Marcus has made a good point on that. For the artists you mention, sure, it means nothing. But for some of the older artists who are in there, and for many older artists who aren't, it sometimes means a great deal (Marcus bases this on conversations he's had):

I’ve often thought of the Hall of Fame as a terrible if not ridiculous idea, mostly because I hated the stricture of, in this most democratic realm of free speech, elevating some over others. I thought of it as a joke, until I met musicians--most vehemently, Mary Weiss of the Shangri-Las--who made plain how much it would mean to them to be included, what a validation it would be, and how excluded, how cast on the garbage heap of those who might as well have never been born, which is to say never played on the radio, they felt over never having the thrill of seeing their names on the wall. So, I took it more seriously.

That sucks if Mary feels that way :(

She doesn't/shouldn't need the validation

xp OTM. I mean, that's pretty much true for the Oscars too - it's silly to consider them representative of what's really the best films out there, especially this year. But it's obvious they mean a LOT to people when they win them - the fact that it's more or less coming from their peers probably helps (politics and campaigning aside). So it feels dickish to shit on something they're happy to get.

Don't forget what Tom Waits said after he was inducted: "I never really cared about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but now I am surprised to discover how much I DO care."

Among many reasons they won't ever get in, The Guess Who would be dangerous for Burton Cummings' tendency to insult his other band members when receiving awards, which got him cut off at the Juno Awards.

xp This is the same point I've made on here re: The Grammys... they mean a lot to artists (some of whom I care about), despite all the issues/shortcomings.

From the 500 Songs episode on “Leader Of The Pack”:

Mary now occasionally performs live, and will give the occasional interview, though she never reveals much about herself or the group. She detests them being called a “girl group”, saying that they were rock and roll singers and shouldn’t be defined by their gender — after spending her whole life since she was fifteen having her public image controlled by other people, and for much of that time not being able to work in her chosen field, and after seeing the damage that was done to her sister and their friends, she will now only do things and talk about her life on her own terms. And who can blame her?

I agree about Mary Weiss, and she's definitely not someone who carries around that disappointment of never having been played on the radio--the Shangri-Las have never left the radio, even if they've probably been reduced to "Leader of the Pack," and their many other great songs have mostly disappeared.