Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame Nominees 2023

if i had five: kate bush, iron maiden, joy division/new order, willie, tribe

i'm assuming of course the reality is it'll be sheryl crow, cyndi lauper, rage, soundgarden, white stripes

So you also think it will help her? I'm confused.

― clemenza, Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:53 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes it will definitely help her, even if it means she gets in another time, not this year

i'm pro-soundgarden, tbh

also realizing i misread your post and thought you said it wouldn't help her lol xp to clemenza

from what I can know about him based on his work, writing style etc etc, I dislike Bill Wyman. He is one of those chicago area rockist he —or maybe neo-rockist— dudes like Dero and Greg Kot who like ROCK, don't seem to understand anything beyond that, and when they try to present an understanding of hip-hop or pop music or anything else, appear very "HELLO FELLOW KIDS" and seem to be unduly influenced by Dave marsh…

I used to read Wyma in the late '80s/early '90s, but his schtick was mostly propping up a kind of phony "authenticity" -- he absolutely trashed Truth Or Dare (and Madonna in general) for the film's supposed lack of "honesty," and there was some not-exactly-subtle misogyny in said trashing (I never got a Marsh vibe from Wyman in the least, and Marsh loved Truth Or Dare). Wyman is indeed hapless outside of (and often inside) his little box of "rock." On one episode of Sound Opinions he went on about how "free jazz" is "when you do what you want and you don't listen to the other musicians." To their credit, the co-hosts tried to correct him and rein him in, but Wyman kept digging. (See also his bizarre contention that "Rock Lobster" was not influenced by Yoko Ono, despite the B-52s explicitly and frequently stating otherwise.)

I think we can all (mostly) agree that all nominees deserve to be in some manner of hall of fame, but when I think about the R&RHOF it seems like the whole point is the ceremony, which implies the live performance, and a "classy" opportunity/excuse for certain people/combinations of people to perform one more time/pay tribute to people that have passed that are responsible for celebrated music...

And in that spirit I would be excited about maybe Kate Bush agreeing to sing on television once more, or Meg White playing the drums one more time, or Soundgarden with guest singers ala the Nirvana induction which I thought was excellent, or a similar kinda thing with George Michael, but y'know give all these people their flowers imo

Just want to point out that Link Wray is still not in. Not under "musical excellence," not an "early influence," nothing.

He is one of those chicago area rockist he —or maybe neo-rockist— dudes like Dero and Greg Kot who like ROCK

Beside the point of your post, but this is a little unfair to Kot. He's perhaps typical of critics of his generation in his affection for rock music and assuming its place in the center of the critical discourse, but he doesn't venerate the values of RAWK the way DeRo does, and his tastes are considerably more eclectic; he routinely champions other genres.

when Cornell passed I listened to a ton of Soundgarden and that band was incredible, I hadn't really listened to them closely, but what a group of musicians.

xp (Like, the Charlotte Adigery album was in his top 5 last year.)

Soundgarden was so fuckin good, i spent a fair amount of time during the pandemic listening to them while holed up and they're better than anyone remembers, just a deep rich sound and with one of the great singers in rock music.

some of the rock bands that have made it in during their period of eligibility are embarrassing to think about in comparison.

I think I posted this somewhere else, and it might be behind a paywall, but Marcus and Jon Landau talking about the HOF:

https://greilmarcus.substack.com/p/back-and-forth-with-jon-landau-on

(If it is behind a paywall, Landau has Link Wray on his list of 19 artists he thinks should be in. And he talks about the whole definition of "rock and roll" thing--Landau used to chair the nominating committee.)

Since you only get one vote here, I went with the Spinners. Not that they're necessarily the most obvious pick from that list, but they're the one that most should have been in long ago.

Voted Iron Maiden

UP THE IRONS

Cyndi Lauper is an intersting 'problem' inasmuch as I agree that she basically only has the one fantastic and impactful album (although I also stan pretty hard for Blue Angel)...but it's actually pretty goddamn impressive that she's basically still considered a part of the '80s pop pantheon on the basis of that one album (plus 'True Colors') (plus the Pee-wee's Playhouse theme) (plus this).

haven't predicted who i think will get in, so i might as well go on the record: white stripes, willie nelson, george michael, kate bush, rage against the machine

foo fighters/dave grohl got in during their first year of eligibility, so i think there's no reason why white stripes/jack white won't. feels like those two guys are the prevailing torch-bearers for old school, capital-r rock these days

yeah plus jack white's done all sorts of stuff like that paramount records old time blues box set, etc

I got no problem with JD/New Order as a unit -- it's politics, man.

Small relief that this year won't be as bad as last year.

The only nominee I would never consider is Sheryl Crow. Everyone else has something that makes their induction feel deserving.

(And it's almost a given Crow will get in based on their recent inductees.)

Encyclopaedia Britannica has a single article on Joy Division/New Order (written by Jon Savage).

Among artists who had one album disproportionately successful compared to everything else they ever did, I'd be hard pressed to think of one that covers every pathway to the HOF--sales, chart success, critical acclaim, influence, impact and fame in a general cultural sense--better than She's So Unusual. Maybe I'm overlooking something.

I agree w/birdistheword's initial comments re: Crow

(and not just as a matter of taste – e.g., I loathe RATM, but get why they're "deserving")

and now you do what they told ya

I think NO/JD gets in as The Cure broke the mold for these types of bands and Depeche Mode made it last year. George Michael and Soundgatden should also make it.

Soundgarden really took a stratospheric jump after Ben Shepherd joined the band. I mean, I love Louder Than Love, Ultramega O.K., all the early stuff, but they became a much more interesting and multi-faceted group after that. Largely due to his songwriting contributions as well as even some of the tunings

The only nominee I would never consider is Sheryl Crow. Everyone else has something that makes their induction feel deserving.

I agree w/birdistheword's initial comments re: Crow

yeah but have y'all considered lightening up and/or soaking up the sun

Soundgarden, Lauper, and Sheryl Crow have got to be the least influential acts here, which is why I assume they'll get in.

Yeah, nobody sounds like Soundgarden or cites them as an influence; they were a real one-off proposition, almost forgotten, really.

Re: Nelson, I think Dolly Parton's instincts were correct. Both of them should be in, but rather than taking up a spot on the ballot, they should be committee inductions - except for Johnny Cash (who's unique given his time at Sun Records), country artists had been inducted that way anyway. I imagine it's just a way to drum up more PR - the months spanning the voting process probably gets a little more attention when Nelson or Parton are included in the conversation.

Re: Lauper, it really does come down to one amazing album. Twenty years ago I would've said She's So Unusual wasn't enough, but at this point, it's more than enough.

Soundgarden were good and successful. In terms of notable bands really trying to sound like them, Nirvana and Pearl Jam inspired far more copycats. So did Rage, which is why I didn't mention them.

does inspiration, like, have to mean 'created a lot of soundalike bands', as opposed to, inspired a lot of people to start making/recording music?

Soundgarden was a pastiche of a lot of 70s influences and they were definitely a band with buzz but not much more commercially, but their presence was gargantuan for a small period of time, and the excitement for their reunion was pretty high, King Animal was their third highest charting position in their career.

also when it comes to influence I find a lot of bands take a very narrow slice of a band's sound, for instance half of the time you hear someone say something is Alice in Chains influence, all it means is they have a high pitched raspy vocalist who likes to sing close harmonies, and Sabbath influence bands usually pull from like one album's sound (or even just a song).

Goo Goo Dolls messed around with weird tunings on their ballads starting with A Boy Named Goo after never doing it for years, maybe they were touched by the Garden.

Ok so if Lauper is to be defined as having just one great album (with at least five indelible songs)... one might point out that non-nerds (i.e., most of humanity) only know one (or perhaps two) Kate Bush songs.

Not if you live in the UK.

I'd be willing to hear the case that Soundgarden inspired a bunch of people to start bands. To me, they're in a weird spot. Their actual innovations seem relatively small, but they didn't suck. They were like the 3rd biggest Seattle band, and Kurt Cobain's rasp was trendier to emulate, and Vedder's Morrison-isms were easier, than Chris Cornell's howl. As far as making people money, they did do a lot to get the initial buzz going about Seattle.

Pretty sure they were the first of that crowd I actually heard about, in my late 1988/early 89-era "I guess Rolling Stone is mostly where to find out about new music?" mind.

God we've come far enough in time that the White Stripes are eligible. Sad stuff.

Am a fan of:

Kate Bush
Missy Elliott
Joy Division + New Order
George Michael

Enjoy but more-so revere:

Rage Against The Machine
The Spinners
A Tribe Called Quest

As for who gets in I have no clue it's a very unsurprising list

is influence that important of a factor? soundgarden was just a great rock band that was hard to emulate. frankly, for kids like me nirvana was the one mostly because you felt like you could do that. soundgarden is a harder target to reach.

If Joy Division and New Order get in this year, and Soundgarden and Rage don't, the solution for them next year is obviously to be nominated as Audioslave.

Re: influence and inspiration, I think the "quality" of the influence matters too. On those grounds, Kate Bush, Joy Division/New Order, Willie Nelson, The Spinners and A Tribe Called Quest would be at the top of my list. They didn't follow trends, they broke new ground and took big risks in their respective genres and wound up reshaping the music in the process. Re: New Order, one article stated that "they were formidable underground dance-music presences in the 1980s. They kept at it and the world came to them and they ended up global superstars" - that's pretty much what I'd call a profound influence.

Is it the Hall of Influence? The Hall of Like? The Hall of Deserve?

They could have called it the Hall of Merit, but chose Hall of Fame instead.

Among living people, George Michael is probably more famous than the Spinners or Elizabeth Cotten.

Willie Nelson is among the most famous musicians there is, but is he a rock musician?

they should ban more people from the hall, like in baseball, that would get me interested

also past inductees should be able to be kicked out arbitrarily

and during the ceremony where they get kicked out, a bunch of celeb musicians play their songs really badly on purpose

LMAO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfKT7cJGpY4

Hall of Flame

It’s so wildly dumb that we (self included) get into an annual conversation about predicting the taste of a bunch of geriatric no-nothings for who gets to be in some arbitrary-yet-deeply-guarded list of famous people

I feel like Cyndi will get there. But the last couple years have sewn Eurythmics, Pat Benatar, Duran Duran, and Go-Gos, Lionel Richie, Janet Jackson, the Cars, and The Cure, so maybe they're pressing pause on early 80s pop for a bit.

the below is from this thread a few months ago… re: the booby/back door prizes awarded this year to Chaka Khan, Link Wray and Al Kooper (it is very odd that Kooper's admirers/pals on the nom committee couldn't make him happen until now)… expect Wyman's update to his most often banal ranking in Vulture in the next couple of days, in which he will huff and puff that George Micheal is a fluffy pop artist, rather like similar admonishments re: Jran Jran and Depeche Mode…

from what I can know about him based on his work, writing style etc etc, I dislike Bill Wyman. He is one of those chicago area rockist he —or maybe neo-rockist— dudes like Dero and Greg Kot who like ROCK, don't seem to understand anything beyond that, and when they try to present an understanding of hip-hop or pop music or anything else, appear very "HELLO FELLOW KIDS" and seem to be unduly influenced by Dave marsh… every time the RRhoF ceremony comes and goes, he updates his own ranking of the most to least worthy inductees, and his views are most often asinine and banal: if he was a poster here and presented his views as such in an unvarnished manner, he would be roundly jeered…

but he made an excellent point in the last such update: instead of the disingenous backdoor "early influences" and "excellence in music" booby prizes, the nominating committee should just come out and say "we are the nominating committee, and we are putting these two artists/acts in, and that's it, no voting, they're going in." The electorate —older bizzers, former alt paper lifers and other over 50s who truly care about voting and jealously guard their ability to do so— are never going to give the committee the results they (or most ILMniks, for that matter) want… doing so would not violate any principle or any such thing…

I'm also told by someone who should know that the journo/bizzers on the nominating committee, particularly the older people in their 60s/70s , are intimidated by Morello, Grohl and Questlove, like "geez, these guys are real musicians, and we're nerds who've created nothing or suits who've created nothing good, we should do what they say"; which is why Morello can push Priest in through the back door, and will surely try to do the same with Maiden…

RRHOF nods because poor white ppl listen to metal and rich white ppl listen to indie rock

this feels like maybe a total bullshit generalization idk

re Coldplay

U2 and R.E.M. always went to them for advice when recording their albums

STIPE: "Hey Chris, we can't quite decide whether to call the album 'Fables of the Reconstruction' or 'Reconstruction of the Fables.' What do you think?"

MARTIN: "What? I don't know who you are, and also I'm only 7 years old."

they went to 3-year-old martin for lyrical advice on murmur

Maiden is a global stadium-sized band, if they get in it's hardly through a back door?

they went to 3-year-old martin for lyrical advice on murmur

Evidently. "Gumby in...Gumby in...Gumby into town..."

Lol

Hah, yeah, "always went to them" isn't exactly accurate.

Re: Wyman, I double-checked to be sure, but he actually listed George Michael as one of the major omissions from the HOF when he first wrote that article. To be fair it doesn't mean he's personally a fan, but I guess that'll be clear when he updates it.

DeRogatis is definitely a "rockist" - it's embarrassing how often he's trashed or dismissed artists from Missy Elliott to Kendrick Lamar on very dubious grounds, only to completely reverse himself a few years later without a word of what he used to think.

Here's the earliest Missy Elliott review that came up in the Sun-Times article:

While Missy Elliott wowed the music industry and the pop and hip-hop worlds with her 1997 debut "Supa Dupa Fly," her tough-talking female gangsta persona struck me as a caricature of genuinely tough and multidimensional women such as Queen Latifah and Yo-Yo. Elliott amplified the attitude, but dropped the substance, creating a straight-faced alternative to Lil' Kim or Foxy Brown. And then she was universally hailed for this dubious accomplishment.

On her second disc, the chinks in her armor are obvious. Much as she claims she's in control of her life, art and business, producer Timbaland is the loudest voice here; his poppy, riff-crazed musical flavor is not a particularly inspired or original one. Factor in the wealth of cameos (by Da Brat, Eminem, Redman, Aaliyah and others) and you'll find yourself asking: Where the heck is Missy Elliott on this Missy Elliott album?

She pops up here and there, asking such charming questions as: "Would you still be in love, baby, if I cut your throat?" It's all tired posturing_empowering only in the sense that it proves that women rappers can be just as empty-headed as their male counterparts.

By 2005, he's praising Elliott and Timbaland as "one of the most groundbreaking pairings in hip-hop history."

Having said that, I don't think Greg Kot's in the same boat, mainly because it was his arguments with DeRogatis on WXRT that made it painfully obvious how doctrinal DeRogatis was about his idea of "rock." Not just a lot of hip-hop, but Dionne Warwick or anything country beyond Johnny Cash would be a point of contention. It was amusing considering how the show's intro emphasized that Kot was the ROCK critic for the Tribune and DeRogatis was the POP critic for the Sun-Times. The one phrase that stuck out for me was when DeRogatis dismissed Kot's defense of a pop-oriented recording with "I listen to ROCK & ROLL! What do YOU listen to?"

* the Sun-Times archive

haven't we been over this already?

Apparently we have - three months ago according to a quick search of this thread.