No more pallet puzzles: THE LAST OF US PART II

Wow. The inevitable fight between the parallel protagonists is so brutal and vicious, and making you play it as Abby is downright sadistic. Like I said, I've avoided the discourse for the past two years, but I can't imagine this sat well with many. I get it, it's a game about the cycle of violence, but I feel there was a better way to show that that didn't involve rubbing your face in it. Didn't help that it followed right after the gratuitously over the top escape from the fiery village, which again, felt like a very Resident Evil (by way of Uncharted) setpiece.

I'm at the farm house now. I have no idea if this is the end of the game or not or whatever is going on. It's clearly a built-in breather after what came before, which is welcome, since I almost didn't want to finish what came before.

Damn you crushed this game, well done

I think there's more but I can't remember

Oh there's more.

I've decided life's too short for Grounded so I'm doing Survivor+ mode which I've now realised is going to stock me up with hella weapons once I get to Seattle.. not actually what I want.. I need the full-fat Survivor. Maybe I just play conservatively but on Normal I always had plenty of supplies, often having to pass things up because I was maxed out

I never got far into my NG+ because I just couldn't figure out how to actually creep up on clickers! I probably needed to go more slowly but I always felt like they were actually outpacing me and thus getting out of killing range.

OK, *now* I'm done. Wow, what a heartbreaking and depressing story. I've got to give credit where credit is due, after the first game's story this wasn't the only direction the story could go in, but it may be the bravest, narratively speaking. Both games are sort of Old Testament bleak, and the muddled morality of the first one logically leads to the even harsher themes of the second game. Still, there are some things that leave me torn, some by design, some ... I don't know how I feel.

Maybe spoilers? This is a two year old game, and the thread is old, so ... be forewarned?

First off, the game is a technological marvel (I played the upgraded PS5 version), and while I am not sure I am better off having played it (since it intentionally eats away at memories of the first, like a cancer), anyone that has *not* played the first game but is getting to do so for the first time in its freshly remade iteration, with this game's tech and look, I'm jealous. The level of detail here is mind-boggling. At one point I ran up a hill wet with rain, and I had to go back a second to confirm that, yes, there were tiny trickles of water running down through the mud, almost invisible in the near darkness.

Second, Ellie (and Joel) are such, again, almost Biblically tragic characters, doomed to never be happy because of what brought them together, and both here are again remarkably written and portrayed, especially in such a rough context. Dina, too, for that matter, and of course Abby. I think spending so much time on Abby was an audacious gamble, but one that ultimately pays off, forcing you to identify with the ostensible villain in a why that can only come from hours of immersion playing as her. There are sentimental and manipulative tricks to the trade at work throughout this, of course, but being able to depict even fleeting moments of joy and tenderness, from different perspective, in something this ugly is really something.

That said, a lot of it truly *is* ugly, and not just in an exploration of the cycles of violence and revenge sort of way, in a really grotesque, cruel, even unpleasantly sadistic way that goes far beyond what the story called for, imo, with a gross reliance on torture that probably could have been handled better. Likewise, all the Santa Barbara stuff really feels like an afterthought, down to its generic enemies; that and the ott showpiece of the fiery village escape seemed disappointingly boilerplate. I feel like it all could have been wrapped up better, without resorting to yet another battle, and another bloody confrontation, especially after all the horribleness we/they have had to endure. It was never going to be a happy ending, but the story could still be bittersweet or sad without almost literally hitting you over the head with it, again and again, until you're just a bloody pulp.

I don't know. Something can be visceral without being repellent. Ellie is in a lot of ways the latest version of John Wayne's character in "The Searchers," and she maybe deserved a similarly subtle send-off. Which the game does in essence tack on at the very, very end, but it left me with mixed feelings. Don't get me wrong, it's all an incredible experience, and in total an impressive continuation of the story. Complex, (emotionally) challenging and morally complicated, never boring. But I'm torn as to whether I'd want it continued any further; a grave can only be dug so deep. I could, however, totally see myself playing the first game again. I wonder how playing this game will inform that one, going backwards?

good post. agree with most of it, especially the visual splendor - i think it's a surprisingly moving aspect of the game, or maybe intentional to counteract the conceptual bleakness. Abby's section was a really brave and effective narrative and game design decision, really the whole thing is.

good eye on The Searchers, didn't catch that as I was playing but almost certainly in their minds, especially with the final shots

Santa Barbara i feel like was a necessary chapter to complete the story but also was very hopeless and upsetting, no doubt. i kind of don't want to see a Part III either, just leave it. Druckmann said something to the effect that if they made a Part III it would have to be a much more uplifting story

waiting for the remaster to hit $20 before I buy TLOU 1 yet again

Some more thoughts, having caught up on old discussions/debates.

I mentioned the look on PS5, but a lot of the clips and videos I watched discussing the game were of course drawn from the original PS4 version. Supposedly the PS5 upgrades were mostly to the frame rate, but man, do the PS5 improvements really make a difference visually, at least to my eye. Faces, things like that. When the trailer for the Last of Us Part 1 remake came out, people were all, eh, looks the same. But I watched one of those Digital Foundry videos, and they went through it all in detail, and came away with wtf, the improvements are significant and obvious!

Anyway, still sitting with this game, which is a testament. I found it remarkable (if maybe not so surprising) how so many people seemed to have had the exact reactions I did, as I was having them, which shows the care and skill put into the game and its story. And as a couple of videos I watched noted, a lot of those feelings and reactions were only possible because this is a video game. As I tried to explain to my wife (without spoilers, since she is watching the show) is that when you read a book that switches perspective, you are typically given a glimpse into their mind and motivations. But when you *play* as that character, for several hours, you are essentially *sharing* a mind and motivation with that character. You are told what you need to do and in many cases you have no choice about it. It's how the story is written, how it has to be. And yet, because you are still the co-pilot, your own morality and sense of right and wrong inevitably, unavoidably plays at least a passive role, and in a few key moments here, an active role, or at least the illusion of an active role.

It's an incredible, and incredibly effective, trick. How do you push the feelings and emotions of the player so far that you can all but guarantee they will feel exactly what you want them to feel, when you want them to? Maudlin or manipulative cut scenes are one way; I love "Ori," but that opening is a straight-up heartbreaking sequence a la "Up." Here they figured out a way to push things further, to make you do the wrong thing even while justifying it as the right thing, and vice versa. No wonder it left me seasick.

While doing retroactive research, I found this fascinating lecture from Druckmann about the creation of the first game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjwuPeqZt0s

It's amazing how often it flirted with failure as the team inched closer and closer to what we're all familiar with now. And it all came down to doing right by the characters and story.

Oh, and back to Part II, there are *still* people bitching and complaining about the game in 2023, which I suspect is a combination of immaturity or outright assholes, reactionaries uncomfortable with this game's queasiness who are acting out as a form of denial or projection. And that's not even factoring in the fucking misogynists, homophobes or all around incels. But fuck them. I have yet to come across a negative review of this game from someone operating in anything close to good faith.

A lot of the review sites that I follow (which definitely aren't coming from reactionary MRA viewpoints) didn't like the game, though, and I don't think it's from an inability to empathize with Abby -- the brutality is a LOT to handle, especially as we follow Ellie's descent.

I agree about the violence, and made mention of it as I was playing, but I think that helps make my/the point. Many games we play are innately violent. So what is it about *this* game that made it particularly unpalatable to some people? I think it's because they pushed it so far that it goes beyond fun (which is gross to even write, lol). It's unpleasant. Which of course is kind of a mixed win.

As for Abby, I sort of also agree, but I think the game maybe did the best it could with that. Abby can be made more sympathetic, but she'll never be as sympathetic as Ellie because of the first game. What they did manage to do was at least earn Abby some empathy. She may never be as sympathetic as Ellie, who you have been playing/rooting for a lot longer, but by depicting their journeys in parallel they did show how Abby could have easily been Ellie or vice versa in different circumstances, and that is what made the conflict so complex, despite the emotional advantage Ellie has.

On paper of course they did a great job juggling all the arcs, imo. In the first game, Joel is infected with his own virus, which robs him of his humanity; Ellie is the cure. Ellie's journey here is the inverse, starting out human but quickly descending from there, making the selfish choice to increasingly sacrifice her waning humanity for the sake of vengeance (which is again the inverse of Joel, who selfishly abandons humanity at large for the sake of his own personal humanity). Which brings you to Abby, who we experience regaining her lost humanity due to her own shepherding quest a la Joel in the first game (so much so that when she started crafting shivs I was struck by a sudden sense of deja vu). Just a bunch of intersecting arcs criss-crossing over the same timeline.

It's such a powerful moment when those flashes of bloody Joel give way to what turns out to be Ellie's final interaction with him, which opened to door to hope and forgiveness. The realization that she had in effect achieved closure only to throw it all away suddenly becomes apparent to her, and it's devastating. The same thing happens with Abby, who dreams of all those horrible ways her dad died, only to finally reach a place where she can remember him in a positive light. But of course, she's on the (relative) upswing, a la Joel at the end of the first game. But Ellie is left a lot like Joel at the start of the first game, broken, empty and hopeless. And knowing it's pretty much all her fault. That's one heck of a bad trip.

I restarted in Grounded+ and I’m being lulled into thinking I can handle it because the first bits are so easy and I’ve just done them on Survivor

I like it so far. No health meter! So no way to check if you need to heal I guess?? Just gotta feel the vibe. No listen mode. Which is really excellent. Going around corners quite scary. Though you still do get that moment once you’ve cleared an area where the music changes and you’re like “whew, I think that’s the last of them.” A little corny - a truly realistic mode would not contain those moments. But I suppose the game would just be too unbearably tense without them.

This game would be sooooo stressful without the "all clear" music. Even as I played it, every time a character said "OK, that's the last of them," or "I think they're all dead" or whatever, I would wait a couple of seconds fully expecting some monster to burst through the wall.

Lolllll that would be both extremely cruel and also extremely hilarious

The way the horses cause the snow to slough off those fir trees when you’re riding with Dina

<3 <3

Started playing this the other day (before playing the first, waiting for the pc release next month). Biggest stand out so far is THE SOUND! I just got a subwoofer and this game wooooorks it for those tense encounters with the underlying bass drone happening throughout. The dynamic range is great too, it’s nice to have fun shots and explosions have the volume of gunshots and explosions as opposed to everything existing at the same volume as it is with most games. Contributes greatly to the sense of “violence” talked about above when a gunshot booms out of nothing to take a life while a WLF starts screaming in agony. The silence and general ambience of puzzle/walk sections is great too, gives it a similar somber/epicness that no country for old men had for similar reasons. Going to miss the use of dynamic range the most when I move on to another game.

Wait, you're playing this one *first*?!

I agree w you about the sound H.P but they got carried away with the dynamic range for the dialogue. I am missing many key bits of conversation because I happen to be in the far corner of the room, or I've pivoted Ellie to face another direction, and the volume of the other character eg. Dina, Jess etc suddenly dips way below the music and sound effects. It's a surprising oversight. I've even reduced dynamic range in the settings to try and mitigate this but it hasn't helped much. I've also forced all dialogue into the center channel but that doesn't help much either.

I already spoiled this one for myself (dunkey), so why not just screw the whole thing? Nothing wrong with doing it this way imo.

I hear what you’re saying Tracer but I appreciate this as a creative decision. Want to talk to your friend? Actually be right ne y to them. Maybe it’s cause I’m playing with my speaker pumping (gunshots are loooooooud, worried what my neighbours think lol) but it hasn’t been a problem for me. In fact it has forced my hand into playing loud and as someone with the Hifi equipment I’m glad for it,

Lol that sounds pretty awesome - I am playing at night after my kids are in bed, my hand millimeters away from the volume control of the remote

I remember playing Grounded mode on Part 1 with headphones and it being a VERY immersive experience.. in fact, I often didn't really miss "Listen Mode" because actual listening with my ears was so accurately rendered that it was pretty clear where the clickers were

There were definitely times I missed dialogue prompts because I had wandered ahead a little, searching for supplies. Someone would be talking and kind of trail off, and by the time I noticed the interaction icon it would be too late to turn back and resume the conversation (afaict).

I suspect it’s a classic case of the sound designers all using extremely amazing headphones

It’s everyone else’s fault for not owning $1000+ headphones.

No kids yet, although I do have to tip toe around my wife with this game. Soon as she is home it has to go off. Half because of the sound, half because of literally everything else hahah

Kinda wish I was playing without listen mode now, feels like a bit of a crutch maybe I do t need. Don’t feel like the difficulty is out of control, then again I’ve only just reached the first Ellie + Joel flashback museum scene so maybe it ramps up

Unless you’re playing on Grounded you can always change the difficulty. Either in toto or for individual elements. Pretty much any setting you can think of is tweakable. Apart from a few rough patches I thought Normal was pretty easy. I would definitely do at least Hard.

I don't recall anything in Normal being particularly difficult, aside from a couple of brief bits that probably wouldn't benefit too much from listen mode. Though there are a couple of sequences iirc that I feel really need listen mode.

It's blowing my mind that the PS5 patch reportedly only upgrades the frame rate. This game looks incredible.

That keynote was great (and surprisingly only 40 minutes of the YouTube video, the rest is audience questions). Really cool to see how long and how many iterations the core story went through (wow at the Mankind concept... glad they turned around on that!) Definitely kinda surprised as Druckmann explained his truth behind TLOU1's ending, I admit I completely bought into the generally accepted interpretation when I played it - that Ellie was basically accepting Joel's actions complicitly - the way he breaks it down here shows how naturally it leads into Part II's story.

Man, some people ...

Bro I have not been on Naughty Dog's payroll since 2017. I am not their complaint department. I think you forgot a cc on this one, champ.

CW: Harassment, Threats, Stupidity pic.twitter.com/mwDXorDj5M

— Jocelyn (@Jocelyn_Mettler) February 16, 2023

And speaking of, I've been going back and reading prominent reviews, and ... they're mostly so full of shit to the extent that it emphasizes either how much of this went over their heads or how maybe (more likely?) they weren't ready for what they got. Like people rioting after "The Rite of Spring" or something. "This is clearly good, but not what I wanted, and kind of makes me uncomfortable, so ... I'm mad! And I'm not quite sure why!"

fans think they’re in the game. you’re not in the game. you’re in the stands

I've read a couple takes that try to make the case that it's the fans that are being *too generous* to the game! Can't catch a break, if you like it, you're just a fan, but if you're a fan, you're gonna hate it. I suppose the flipside is that everything one thinks the game does right *or* wrong sort of ratifies its accomplishments. But people like certainty and hate ambiguity, and if a game makes them feel bad or angry, then clearly it must be the game's fault(s), and absolutely no way is it possible that by making millions of people feel the same or similar ways is actually a sign of success, right? (And these are, of course, the at least purportedly good faith attempts at criticism, overlooking lunatics like the person I just posted who, years later, is still harassing the *body model* that "played" Abby).

Face model.

Idk, I can very easily see why people, non-CHUD division, might not enjoy the game in a way where they make a good faith effort to engage in it. It's the same reason why I recommend the game with serious caveats.

My only caveat would be it's not for the squeamish, but in that sense it's not too different from the first one, just more intense; there are great movies I don't recommend for the same reasons. But I really don't see how how someone who liked the first one wouldn't appreciate ("enjoy" might be too strong a word) this one. I've come across a few "blah blah gameplay blah" takes, and imo that's BS. I've yet to see more or less *any* game (short of From stuff) where the gameplay doesn't get old or repetitive by the end.

when the gameplay is good repetitiveness is a virtue

Haha I got very tired of Bloodborne by the time I got to the start of the Micolash stage.

Gameplay, the sequel is a huge step forward, but it's the story that I find needs to be approached carefully. The unflinching depiction of the corrosive effects of violence is an incredibly narrow line that the writers have to walk, and it's very easy for me to see why it tips towards the unbearable for some people. It's also a significantly longer game IIRC, and where the first game has a through line that gradually blossoms into a perverse kind of hope, the hope here is attenuated, gated behind story progression, and buried under loads of brutality, which can just be overwhelming.

yeah agree w that

Yeah, I don't disagree, either. But it all feels like a logical progression to me. Hope is nice to have, and of course this second game is about what replaces hope if/when you lose it, and I think that story only works in tandem with the first game, which ... yeah, it's a delicate balance. So I concede that just because something works doesn't mean it works for everyone. That said, having watched that semi-viral "Sacrificial Trash" video, I'm not entirely willing to believe that *all* negative reviews of this game don't somehow stem from the chudiest of chud takes, which preceded the game by weeks/months. There was a noxious cloud reviewers had to navigate, which is why a lot of the spoiler-free takes I'm belatedly absorbing are packed with cagey caveats or disclaimers or claims of good faith criticism in light of all the noise, etc., all of which makes it seem unlikely this game was ever going to be able to get a fair shake.

I'm not entirely willing to believe that *all* negative reviews of this game don't somehow stem from the chudiest of chud takes

Dude:

https://kotaku.com/the-last-of-us-part-ii-the-kotaku-review-1844006193

Everything in The Last of Us 2 takes work. Every weapon reload, killing blow, and crafted item takes time and button presses. At times the game is painfully slow; even in the most action-packed sections you put in effort to move things forward. You’re paid for this work in a grim story and explicit violence. It can be exciting and beautiful, but mostly I just felt like shit.

...

TYPE OF GAME
Misery simulator

https://www.polygon.com/reviews/2020/6/12/21288535/the-last-of-us-part-2-review-ps4-naughty-dog-ellie-joel-violence

That is the game’s central problem, and what makes so much of it such a challenge to get through: This is a story about characters who seem unable to learn or grow, and more specifically, unable to consider the humanity of the people they kill. If you already think violence isn’t the answer to many of the world’s problems, the repeated lesson that killing is bad makes the game almost maddening.

Whatever you think of the current quality of Polygon and Kotaku, they err on the side of social justice.

No, I get it. I've seen a few reviews like that, from reputable sources. I just mean that even those reputable reviews came under the cloud of the stupid backlash, about how even good faith negative reactions can be heightened by bad-faith reactionaries. Or summed up somewhere as "when something becomes fuel for a culture war, it becomes extremely hard to provide genuine criticism of that media because it is impossible for anyone to separate genuine critique from bigots hiding behind genuine critique to try and tear down the 'woke sjw trash' they hate. And even if you are providing that genuine criticism, you are accidentally helping push that culture war narrative for the chuds."

i'm with Josh on this one, the majority of negative takes (as i recall at the time) were generally not well-argued criticism

even the "yes, murder is wrong!" snark is incredibly reductive of what the game puts you through

i remember the "type of game: misery simulator" bit though, still love that

i don't remember if it was that review or another one that talked about how ugly and loud the gun sounds are but otm in any case, it's p brutal

i still cackle though whenever ellie gets her neck chomped by a clicker, i can't help it

Ugh, I still try and pause the clicker chomping scenes to quickly “restart encounter” so I don’t have to hear it. Yet every time, the game says, “no, you WILL watch this”. I don’t attempt to pause because it’s offensive or “bad”, but because it’s intense. That intensity seems to be at the root of most “good-faith” criticism, but I really don’t see it as a point against. It’s the key ingredient to the magic of the game, its commitment to truthfully following out consequences. Those ugly and loud gun sounds are the best damn thing about this game. The sound design is incredible. Every gunshot is a consequence. Even the resource management goes into it. I unloaded a full clip of my pistol into one WLF’er yesterday and was in dread about how I was going to deal with the next one I ran into with no resources lol.

This game has sucked me in far more than others do, and it’s because of the exact things it gets critiqued for.

The sound design *is* nuts. You can hear how close or far the enemies are, or where the bullets or arrows are hitting, that sort of thing. You can hear the baddies yelling to one another from different spots. It's amazing and scary.

I take back all praise. I just reached Abby section and met the dog……… wtf why did they have to bring dogs into this mess :(

My Swiss Shepherd is lying next to me while I’m playing and I’m feeling her harsh judgement. Time to turn the tv off, touch grass, and heal my soul with some doggy time

Speaking of truthfully following out consequences… I know it’s a non-issue in the end but you cannot tell me Mel and her baby were simply fine with very bumpy car chases, gunshots, climbing a rope, pressing one’s belly against steel beams to climb platforms, etc. like wtf, I don’t know much about pregnancy but I know those activities typically don’t align with a pregnant woman’s lifestyle for good reason.

Also also, confused as to why “Abby” is typically referred to as the villain in reviews/dialogue about this game. From pretty early, really as soon as you find out why Abby’s party was going for Joel (even before you find out it’s Abby’s dad), the game changes. I think it’s when you’re in the flashback scene where Ellie’s listening to the tape saying an immune person would be pointless now since we don’t have the doctors to make a cure anymore. Abby’s story seems a lot more justified than Ellie’s from that point

That's what I'm talking about. Reveals the limitations/laziness of the then contemporaneous discourse that she was often described as a villain just because she did a (the) bad thing, in a game full of people doing equally bad things. You can tell who the villains are in this game because, like most fodder, they don't have names (whistling crazies, Santa Barbara dudes).

It’s not even that it’s grey, it’s that Abby is genuinely more justified that Ellie (not to say Abby is right, she’s just lesson the wrong than Ellie).

Joel kills Abby’s dad with the add on bonus of dooming humanity. Abby kills Joel which really doesn’t even make things even on the eye-for-an-eye scale due to that aforementioned bonus. Ellie then kills everyone she can in response, again as opposed to Abby’s gang where only a single person gets offed (well, minus Jesse, but still, the math stacks against Ellie)

If there’s a main character that needs to be called a villain in this game, it goes to Ellie/Joel by default.

*less in the wrong