Depression and what it's really like

that's absurd and you know it -- but if you can't reach out to the people who you think are leaving you behind, you need to find your own path forward. no one can do that for you.

it's not easily said either -- you have no idea how much effort i have put into reaching out and allowing people get to know me, learning how to open up and ask for help.

if you keep shooting down the truth because it's difficult to achieve that doesn't make it less true!

I think this is part of why people still go to AA meeting years or even decades after their last drink... just to have someone to talk to, and to listen in return

great posts, LL and J0rdan.

on the point of telling people, directly, that you need them, i recently carried out an accidental natural experiment. i told two of my closest friends. one of them responded really well and our relationship is stronger now, we spend more time together, and he's also kind of opened up a bit with me and given me some chances to be a good friend and to be there for him. the other friend was much more distant. i realized during our conversation that i was still expecting him to be the friend that he was in high school, when we spent hours chatting on AIM almost every night. as j0rdan said, it was "clarifying if sad" to realize that he no longer wanted that kind of relationship with me. i'm still hanging around in the hopes that he'll be my friend again (i'm useful to him as a person who picks up his mail), but it's clarifying to know that things have changed and to stop expecting him to be there.

at the same time, jon you mentioned that you don't think you could be blunt about asking for help, and that seems really common, probably the norm, for most people. it's one thing to ask directly for help to someone who you've been open with in that way before; it's a different thing when that's not the kind of thing that ever comes up, or that it makes either you or them uncomfortable.

whoops multiple xps

Since then (along with lots of therapy for all of my situations) I have recognized that there are people who will make time for me, who do prioritize spending time with me and listening to me -- it's just not who I expected it to be.

i think this is really well said and important. if you had asked me at the beginning of my most depressive period who over the next 6-12 months would really be there for me, and then asked me to make a list at the end of that period of who actually *was* there for me, the lists would've had some overlap but would not have been exactly the same. and also not everyone who was there for me at that time is still my friend in that way or even at all... life can still get in the way. (i was single at the time so some of these friendships were something more complicated yada yada). but i found the experience of connecting w/ whoever reached out their hand to be eye opening and somehow freeing

When I've had depressive episodes, I've avoided discussing it with friends. I liked to keep those parts of my life separated. It's possible that my problems weren't so severe that I needed to discuss them, and on some level I realized my feelings didn't have any concrete existence that would be alleviated by conversation?

xp to J0rdan --
yeah i agree -- there was a little overlap between who i expected to show and who actually has but not much. i can't be upset with people for choosing to focus their lives on other things; not only does being upset at them not make them change their minds, it means I spend my time feeling upset. And that is not what I am after tbh. I don't think they have decided not to like me. But if I need people to keep me company or go for walks with me, I have been going with the people who say "sure, let's go next week" instead of the people I have to negotiate extensively to get a phone call with.

this is otm i found the experience of connecting w/ whoever reached out their hand to be eye opening and somehow freeing

xpost to LL, like I said I was being intentionally flip with that comment, I know that wasn't what you were saying but rather relaying what that sort of ask would feel like for me to make.

Lots of good comments here to keep in mind, I appreciate it. What's hard for me is that isn't a case of me waiting for the "right" person to reach out or shying away from people who I don't think will "get" what I'm going through, it's that no one is reaching out. The posts in response itt are the grand sum total of reaching out I've experienced. Which isn't to minimize or diminish any of you who have taken the time to post, I sincerely appreciate it.

To the point of reaching out myself, I did take a step with that yesterday - I texted a friend (who is married to a friend of my wife, whom I know has been thoroughly updated on everything that has been going on) who I've spent a lot of time with, gone to shows with, etc. with "hey, how are you doing? it's been a really rough month, hoping for things to lighten up soon, it's been hard and i hope we can hang out soon" and that has sat on read since yesterday afternoon. To the points made upthread, he may just genuinely not know how to respond or think of what to say, it's a possibility. At the same time, it's kind of shitty feeling to still see no response and doesn't exactly dismiss my (perhaps irrational) thoughts about how maybe I don't "deserve" support.

that's a good start - did you offer any options for hanging out? (would you have time for _____ next week?") _____ could be anything -- a walk a beer anything. it's always easier to open up when you're hanging/talking synchronously. i strongly dislike texting about my problems precisely bc of the asynchronous nature of it.

i would also recommend reading about this -- there are a lot of new books about adult friendships and why they are hard to maintain. most are written by women but i bet they have some good suggestions.

I did not, just mostly because the overlapping family crises have kind of put us in a position where it's really difficult to know our schedule for the next few weeks or months.

that's why you have to ask!!

this is the one i was trying to think of https://weshouldgettogether.com/books

"read a book" may sound pat -- i never thought i would be one of those people who read self-help or psychology books but it has been really useful to read about my now-identified various issues, esp in moments of extreme isolation, to read about other people's experiences and not feel so alone. i'm recommending that in all honesty.

i think that's probably all i have to say about this. i will go back to my regular programming and i wish you all the best.

i can't be upset with people for choosing to focus their lives on other things; not only does being upset at them not make them change their minds, it means I spend my time feeling upset. And that is not what I am after tbh. I don't think they have decided not to like me. But if I need people to keep me company or go for walks with me, I have been going with the people who say "sure, let's go next week" instead of the people I have to negotiate extensively to get a phone call with.

otm! Have I recently told you, LL, how much I value your otm-ness? I forget exactly what the context was ... but I just remember in the past week, thinking about some personal issue, and thinking, LL said something on ilx that was related to this a few years back and it was very otm and I should keep that in mind right now.

If one were to read all the way through this thread, one would know that I have regularly gone through really dark periods and have felt super isolated and rejected, etc. And the thing I would add to what LL said, is that the people will not necessarily be the same ones each time you need support. There were people who were there for me in 2009 who weren't there for me in 2011 and vice versa, and then there was the total collapse in 2018, and the dark times last summer ... it's ... a chronic illness.

Feeling pretty bleak lately, tbh. It's been a really rough year. Regarding my posts from January, I'd been really proud of myself for pushing through my discomfort and the inner voice telling me not to bother and tried reaching out to some folks and being v v diligent about trying to make plans and following up with people. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts and due to a conflation of events and bad timing, nothing much has really panned out. Add in work stress multiplying dramatically due to some personnel changes and the family crises mentioned earlier still manifesting in our lives in frustrating ways, I feel more underwater than ever.

Idk, I know this is probably the stupidest place for me to vent about this, but... whatever. Ultimately I just feel like each successive week is harder, busier and more emotionally taxing than the previous with no easing up in sight and I just don't know how long I can keep moving forward. I mean, obviously I am moving forward, but it feels many days like it's pure survival mode without any joy or enjoyment.

it is not the stupidest place by any means ... US Pol threads, album polls, the Barbie movie thread, post a controversial music opinion ... those would be stupid places.

it feels many days like it's pure survival mode without any joy or enjoyment.

yeah :( I know that feeling, or rather, I have recently been there. For me it's usually just a few months at a time, but I was recently talking to a friend (who is one of those people who rarely has time for me) and he was saying how he has felt that way for years.

Do you get weekends off? Or any kind of chunk of time that is "for you" and isn't either occupied with work or stressful family obligations?

Your last questions there kind of get to the heart of why this has been so difficult, in short - no. Since effectively early March, the weekends that aren't spent at my son's baseball games and tournaments are spent driving six hours each way to go deal with a deceased family member's estate. Those weekends have been to leave immediately after work on Friday and get back (if we're lucky) before midnight on Sunday night.

To be clear, I do really get enjoyment from watching my son play baseball, I don't think of that as a chore or a drain. But most weekends he has two (sometimes three) games a weekend and the accompanying travel, coordination and getting there early for practices and warm-ups really cuts down on being able to schedule anything else those weekends.

So, yeah, absolutely a big part of how I'm feeling is the nonstop go-go-go nature of things right now. Things will lighten up a little bit when baseball ends, but his third(!) season of the year doesn't end until mid-October, which feels forever away from here.

Started going to therapy today, for the first time. For a long time I've been thinking "when _____ is done, things will be okay." But when _____ is done, there's this next thing that needs to be done for things to be okay, and I'm starting to realize that's not how I should be looking at life. Things should be okay even if there are things that need to be done, and there's always going to be a ______. I'm scared of looking back and realizing "oh shit, why couldn't I find some happiness in the day to day instead of just always wanting to get things over with?"

We moved and I stopped working, all of my friends are now hundreds of miles away, I stopped drinking alcohol and caffeine and smoking weed, so my method of coping with stress has been taken away, I feel like I'm drifting. Sometimes I go weeks without talking to anyone but my immediate family or store clerks, and I'm not that social anyways so it's too easy for me to become a hermit. I was talking to my sleep doctor about my CPAP machine and she was asking me if my sleep was normal. I told her that at this point I have no idea what normal looks like.

I'm also not very in touch with myself, I tend to push through whatever is going on. It was weird sitting and talking with someone about me and my brain.

Hopefully therapy can start to help with that. I think still having therapy is probably the only thing keeping my thread hanging on. I've given up on meditation and I've grown really cynical about the concept of self-care (obviously I support it in general and think it's important, but right now it kinda feels like a luxury that really only works for people that spare time).

that "have" spare time

lol for me "self-care" includes ILX and putting some of my drama-prone co-workers on mute during non-working hours

Apparently this hits hardest on Tuesdays. Really been struggling for about a month now, just feeling like I have zero support system and like I'm just a constant disappointment to everyone around me or a burden on them. When I sit and really think about it, I can't come up with anything specific I've done that would cause anyone to be disappointed in me or be a burden to them, but I can't shake the feeling. It's like I only exist as far as serving a specific service to make their lives easier, but once that service is accomplished I'm just in the way.

Yep! That’s real

I’m just so fucking fucked. I’m £200 off paying my rent, which was due 4 days ago, and I just have no fucking clue where the money has disappeared, I haven’t bought anything or gone anywhere or had a fucking social life. I even gave up all my expensive habits like drinking and smoking and don’t have any fuxking hobbies. Even if someone did loan me the money, I wouldn’t know how to pay them back. I’ve reapplied for universal credit but that won’t be assessed until next month. I just feel fucked.

I’ve got fuxking nasty tonsillitis and I can’t fucking get out of bed unless it’s to get my meds.

I just can’t be fucked with life anymore. Im not suicidal like I was a year ago so I guess I’ve just got to sit here and do nothing and feel miserable for ever instead. I used to work so hard and I’ve got less than nothing to show for it.

Do hope it turns around for you. Beginning with your health.

Can we talk meds for a sec?
I’ve been on wellbutrin 450mg and escitalopram 15mg for awhile but over the last year the character of my depression, which has been a prevailing factor in my life for about 35 years, has changed.
Did my best to articulate the changes to my psych dr. and he felt I was describing psycho-motor slowing.
The hallmarks of that do sound a whole lot like what I’m experiencing these days!
He wants me to consider 2mg of abilify as an assistive agent to what I am already taking.
Anyone have any personal experience of abilify as part of a cocktail for depression?

I took abilify alongside citalopram very briefly - the first 3 weeks or so were great because I had more energy. Then that disappeared and I was left with pretty terrible restless leg syndrome. I couldn’t relax, I couldn’t concentrate. So then my psych added a beta blocker but it was kinda pointless because the abilify wasn’t adding anything positive anyway.

So basically RLS is a potential side effect, but hopefully you won’t get it.

How hard was it to taper off?

Pretty easy I think? This was a couple years ago but I don’t remember it being a problem.

lexapro/escitalopram made me zombie slow. i was also taking wellbutrin/lexapro. i now think lexapro is my mortal enemy. it made me feel like death. which is so not what i wanted in an antidepressant. i can't speak to the abilify part though.

no personal experience with abilify but as a psychologist i'd look for a second opinion, reconsidering your antidepressant regimen (dosages, dif meds) seems like a first line of defense before adding an antipsychotic if the main impetus is psychomotor slowing.

nb i am not a prescriber, take this with a grain of salt, but i do know side effects of abilify if you were to end up staying on it can be significant

My therapist recommended Abilify to me, and my doctor scoffed and told me I should start seeing a real psychiatrist. My therapist's experience with Abilify was limited to positive responses in the majority of her patients who had tried it. My doctor counter-argued with other research that demonstrated a limited efficacy for the drug. The result of all of this: I did end up consulting a "real psychiatrist", and I got on an SSRI (Trintellix), and now my medication-needs are met and it has been the case for the last 13 months.

My experience with Wellbutrin has been... mixed. It definitely changed my head-state, but not-necessarily for the better. I recall having to be extra careful about alcohol while on it. As a smoker, too, it messed up my nicotine intake (Wellbutrin acts as an inhibitor, which is perhaps-useful if you aim to quit smoking, but it just made me smoke twice as much, while I was on it.)

I'd definitely get a second-opinion, Jon. My experience has shown me that "getting the right SSRI/SNRI balance is the keystone", and if you're depression has changed, you might consider upping the Escitalopram dosage or changing to another med before adding something new.

*your

nb i am not a prescriber, take this with a grain of salt,

this was beautiful tho

Wow lol

glad you saw what i did there dmac, because i didn’t!

ah the joy of picking up going into therapy again.

i've passed the first stage, which is trawl round the aggregator sites looking at people with indistinct qualifications, who list all forms of therapy in their biogs, and where it's clearly impossible to distinguish between them or get any sense of quality in any way. there was one nearby who looked good in terms of their experience. they were full up (obv), but did recommend me a couple of other names, which I was v pleased about, as any sort of thread through this field is welcome. One of the names got back to me, and although they haven't got any spaces right now, expects to in the next month or so, which, fine, it's not urgent and part of me is just pleased i'm moving this on a bit.

we had a initial chat and it was good. they did say they practice a 'holistic' approach, where the body is seen to be as much a part of the process of therapy as the various ways of making the mind and feelings more legible. in theory this makes total sense and would be foolish to deny; it's seems to me as reasonably clear as it can be that as an organism our emotions, memories, and thoughts - cognitions generally - are embodied and nervous and physical experiences and conditions are intrinsically psychological. i see this in myself as i recognise it in others.

However (obviously), I'm also slightly resistant: I sense 'mindfulness', and I'm wary of it, partly because I saw it appear and develop as a secularised excrescence of spiritual and religious systems (themselves complicated in terms of 'authenticity' and meaning), and meld with that recent popular form of secular humanism that's so unappealing, to me anyway.

So, some objection on broad principles that I don't like the word or what i believe to be the concept, not explicitly stated by the therapist but to me apparent. Seems a bit weak put like that tbh.

It feels like the process will necessarily be also about cognitive states and the recognition and let's say 'management' of them. Now, I've nothing against either CBT or other forms of examining mental states and responses to triggers, which may be causing... let's call it unhappiness or whatever. The identification and exploration of maladaptive cognitions.

And yet, and yet. Is it just a desire for melodrama, self-dramatisation and maybe a form of vanity that makes me feel going back and forth over the ground of how one's memories and representations - a more literary approach - is more appealing to me? Part of it, I think, is that the approach that identifies the areas of fear, tension, anxiety in my existing state may well be efficacious, and to be welcomed for that reason, but that it doesn't end up aligning with my life (put very broadly), that it lacks explanatory force, even if that explanatory force is fictional or synthetic (again, to put one objection to more literary forms of psychotherapy very broadly indeed). Or to put it another way, it seems to me that you can play whack-a-mole with the demons in your head - mole-demons - but that at some point you need to untangle and delve into the tangled roots. in which the mole-demons live. i may be oversimplifying. i'll check when ask the therapist whether they believe they can describe their method as 'whack-a-mole'. see what they say.

The therapist did say 'there's increasing evidence that we need to consider the body in terms of treatment of the mind,' which got my back up slightly. I mean, as I say, it seems more or less axiomatic in one sense, and in another, choosing your methodology may not purely be about evidence of this sort. (i obviously didn't say, well yes, physical explanations for psychic and behavioural states goes back to the dawn of time, but here let me fetch my copy of Burton). i do also realise that understanding of anxiety has improved significantly, and especially in its more extreme forms cognitive approaches have helped people crippled by specific or general forms of anxiety to improve their lives in a way that wouldn't have been possible even fifty years ago.

It's also interesting to me that I'm resistant ofc, and just going along and seeing how I get on is the obvious answer. intellectually i'm not necessarily a dualist, personally there might as well be a 12ft high prison fence between body and mind so, again, maybe it's worth exploring.

anyway, i wanted to set my thoughts down and see if it resonated for anyone. or if the general approach is fgs stop overthinking just go along and see how it is. if you want to pay to be the hero of your own story i'm sure there are places you can do that if this person doesn't provide it.

and if this is not the appopriate thread for what may be a slightly abstract discussion - i've come here before to vent and seek support and it's been a very welcome place to do so - please do let me know and i'll find another or start a new one and leave this one free for more immediate discussions.

'uh sir, is there a question here?'

i guess i'm just asking if anyone has any experience of this 'holistic'* approach and how did you find it.

*i'm not at all clear on the various disciplinary categories and definitions. as i say the self-descriptions always seem to be 'i do everything all the words below'

I think a psychotherapist might be the specific kind of therapist that’ll suit what you’re looking for?

what i'm really looking for is something that will help with underlying anxiety. what i want and what will help may not be the same thing!

Is the tl;dr version of your post that you want to do that thing of delving into your own memories and mind and just talking through stuff?

Wrt physical aspect, psychosomatic and I guess just physical symptoms are a huge component of anxiety, at least for me.

few thoughts take or leave or discuss over a pint sometime as you like

i) you really gonna get anything out of the "explanatory" method?

ii) /abstract/ does one need to feel their therapist/guide/advisor/travelling companion through a journey like this can add something they cannot themselves in order for it to not be a doomed enterprise- to bring it back to the non-abstract youd be a hard man to get and stay ahead of in that sense, is the problem then clarifying into one of having to relax into a process where you dont need to have the other party in that position but they can help anyway

iii) quite genuine, if the above might possibly be serving as some kind of block for you, one wonders if you mightnt get more out of serving in this capacity for others?

i) ime from doing psychodynamic therapy it unlocked stuff that was really important to me later on, though I didn’t realise it at the time. It set things in place for me that had been disrupted and out of sync for decades.

im irrationally annoyed youve gone back to i) there

Is the tl;dr version of your post that you want to do that thing of delving into your own memories and mind and just talking through stuff?

Yes, as just1n3 pointed out, that's what I'm saying really, isn't it. though as i say, what i want and what works may not be the same thing, in fact you *might* argue that what you want and what works probably aren't the same thing given that you're in here in the first place.

i think i massively underestimate the physical impact, gyac. see my immediate response was 'not such a huge component of anxiety for me', but then who occasionally wakes up in the night with their fists clenched? (not in anger, i should stress, at least afaict, but like my body is trying to process more stuff than it as an organism its capable).

darragh:
i) yeah, that's the question isn't it. i'm not sure - practically possibly not?
ii) hang on, i'm struggling to parse this slightly.... yes, ok, i think i've got it. my approach makes it tough for any potential therapist to contribute to my wellbeing. why not instead allow them to contribute and see what happens.
iii) it's an interesting point - i mean in a sense if that were the case, it's not a terrible idea to look around at different things, a tour d'horizon so to speak.

gyac
i) yeah, this is what i'm getting at i think when i used the word 'alignment'.

this is helpful, thanks both - helping me articulate my view of it all a bit better, and also, yes, maybe relax a bit about it.

lol. xpost

im irrationally annoyed youve gone back to i) there

"The therapist did say 'there's increasing evidence that we need to consider the body in terms of treatment of the mind,' which got my back up slightly."

I've come across this in yoga being spoken of as a holistic path to health, where it's talked about how the work on the body has an effect upon the mind. But -- even if in a yoga practice you are effectively learning to do many stressful things without any hint of strain, and part of that is adjusting your mindset -- I find the evidence of wider effects to be very anecdotal, and whenever I hear of studies on this v thing I feel scepticism rise up. But that's me trying to not read about it too much and to just do.

You can only try things. If they work you will just want to carry on doing it, where it will just feel right for you. Good luck!

i don't think i grind my teeth in sleep, though I have been on-off sleeping terribly for some time now. no headaches.

thanks xyzzzz - agreed on the generally open minded exploration being the best approach! it'll be interesting at the very least. and expensive. we'll see. once it's started i'll report back.

I have a bunch of thoughts and not many words right now

Personally, of late, I'm thinking that the processes that help me look after my day to day existence and what I might want to do to explore my underlying distress are quite different, and concentrating on the former seems to help me live much better right now

few thoughts take or leave or discuss over a pint an ayahuasca retreat sometime as you like

(i) if the underlying anxiety seems to be fairly clearly linked to some thoughts or feeling that you keep returning to, then I'd be inclined to seek out someone who works on shorter term issues and try to resolve it, and wouldn't rule out 'holistic' methods;

(ii) if's it's free-floating anxiety of origin not easily traced, then I might be inclined to seek a deeper psychotherapeutic treatment, but I'd research and 'shop around' before committing to a long-term relationship with a therapist.

xpost to NV.

that makes a lot of sense, NV. in fact i was just this second thinking anxiety from eg work, or other day to day matters may need to be separated from being middle aged and often irretrievable sad. i recognise that obviously these can be connected, but resolving the former probably gives more space for the latter, and may even resolve more of the supposedly 'profound' stuff than we may realise. at least i'm coming to this conclusion. which in part is why i'm broadly ok with an approach with which i'm not entirely in sympathy.

what was interesting to me was in the initial phone conversation with this therapist, which was very neutral, just seeing whether their approach and my needs were aligned etc, i was again in the most neutral way explaining why i wanted to pick therapy up again, and it was extraordinary how rapidly i felt myself becoming extremely upset. in an abstract sense it was really interesting. obviously in a direct way it suggest there is some stuff i need to do, to say the least.