If there ain't a Sonny Rollins thread yet, this could be one

I have the vague memory of some academic doing an effusive analysis of his solo on three little words from on impulse as like the best solo ever or something but I can't find it (schuller or someone like that? I know he did something similar for blue 7)

it's a shame he seems so self critical* (but maybe it's partly why he became so good) - does he consider his semi-engagement with the avant garde a failure? it clearly wasn't it from my pov, it gave a real frisson to his playing afterwards even on smoother work (tenor madness on road shows vol. 1 is just mindblowing, the rest of the band kind of stays on the ground as a launching/landing pad while he's off in space a lot of the time)

*in london I remember him telling himself out loud to get it together in the middle of a solo - I couldn't hear what it was about his playing on that number that wasn't good enough but clearly he did

I love the stuff he recorded after his self-exile period, like The Bridge and What's New, can never get bored of them

yeah, that's what I reach for the most — Jim Hall sounds so good on those records.

His discography is tricky since he changed bands so much back then — if he had one or two "classic" groups that stayed together for an extended period (like Miles or Coltrane), there would be an era to focus in on. But that was definitely not his MO.

FWIW, the quintet with Clifford Brown was amazing - I loved that group, even before Rollins joined. Brown was one of the most immeasurable losses in jazz - as great as he was, given his age and abilities, he seemed like someone who could develop even further as a player.

yeah that Brown / Roach band is fantastic. What's crazy is that Rollins was in that band for less than a year (though he continued playing with Roach after Brown and Powell died).

The Brown & Roach band were amazing, but (and I know this is sort of sacrilegious to say) I'm not actually sure how much farther Brown would have developed as a player. Like, he was virtuosic in a bebop/hard bop context, but I can't think of a single moment on any of those albums that shows that he had the capacity to break out of that. I don't know if he could have had a career like Freddie Hubbard, who did the virtuosic-hard-bopper thing but was also the only musician to appear on both John Coltrane's Ascension and Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz, and then made his slick fusion move with CTI in the early 70s...I feel like Brown would have stayed traditional, to his detriment.

I think I agree — though if Miles Davis had died in 1956, I don't know if we'd be able to really predict, say, Agharta.

but I can't think of a single moment on any of those albums that shows that he had the capacity to break out of that.

I can think of many, including (but not limited to) his phrasing in general, but especially his repeated stabs at a phrase in his solo on "What Is This Thing Called Love" (at 2:00 in the song) -- in its way, it's a foreshadowing of Coltrane's use of repeated figures some years later, really digging in and working certain phrases into the ground. And anyway, people said the same about Coltrane up to, and including, Giant Steps -- where could he even go after all that? That's just it -- we don't know what Brown would have done, and what he was doing wasn't seen or thought of as "traditional" when he was doing it.

Freddie Hubbard, who did the virtuosic-hard-bopper thing but was also the only musician to appear on both John Coltrane's Ascension and Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz, and then made his slick fusion move with CTI in the early 70s...

Except Freddie sounded hapless and out-of-his-depth on Free Jazz, and exponentially moreso on Ascension -- he adds nothing to those records (though he works well enough on Ole). If Freddie hadn't appeared on either of those records his career (and the overall curve of the music) would be unaltered.

seems as though Brown and Max Roach were pretty well-aligned and Roach ended up having a fairly adventurous career over the years ... but again, who knows? He was just 25 when he died!

Yeah, Roach never stopped taking risks. Can you imagine? -- Brown and Braxton! Brown with Cecil Taylor! (As it happened, Brown and Eric Dolphy played together informally in the mid-'50s.)

But also, while we don't know what he might have done, we similarly don't know the effect he would have continued to have on the music. Would Miles have risen to prominence the way he did if Brown had lived? Would Brown being straight-edge (though it obviously wasn't called that at the time) have inspired more musicians to get clean?

is the story about roach punching / otherwise assaulting ornette coleman true? if so did he have a change of heart about the avant garde later on or was it something specific about ornette's approach or personality that pissed him off?

I think Roach had an anger/ violence problem in his younger years. I remember reading he abused Abbey Lincoln when they were together.

I never heard that story, and I knew a couple of musicians who were personally acquainted with both Roach and Ornette -- if it was true, I feel like I would have heard it many times by now. That said, Miles's autobiography has a story or two about how Max struggled with alcoholism after Brown's (and later, Booker Little's) death, and would act unpredictably and, in at least one instance, scary and threatening (when he tried to physically break down the door of Miles's house -- Miles was out, but Frances was home and extremely frightened). So it's not impossible, but if it did happen, I doubt it was because of Max's feelings about the new music (and Max played with Eric Dolphy -- I can't imagine he would have dislike Ornette's work much, certainly not enough to assault him).

xp

There was a story in Spin in the 80s about Roach throwing a writer — who had shown up accompanied by Fab Five Freddy — out of his house for being insufficiently accepting of the musical relationship between jazz and hip-hop. I don't think he ever lost his temper. But he was definitely open to new sounds; he played duos with Braxton, with Shepp, with Cecil; he made albums with string quartets joining his band; he founded M'Boom; he did a whole lot of really adventurous shit that I haven't dug into nearly as deeply as I should.

I remember that piece. The writer mentioned Zeppelin samples in hip-hop. Max said, "Hip-hop swings. I never heard Led Zeppelin swing."

some may disagree but he's right

Found it -- not sure if the link will work, but it's on page 60 of the October, 1988 issue of Spin:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ozV_Wa_c470C&lpg=PA60&dq=%22Max%20Roach%22&pg=PA60#v=onepage&q=%22Max%20Roach%22&f=false

xps I really appreciate rollins' respect for the avant garde without diving in with both feet - I'm sure a lot of people in the jazz world wanted to use him as a weapon like they did with others of his generation who were much less open minded

re: Hubbard I agree he sounds a bit lost on those records (it was nice of him to show up) but he's a great ingredient in the "inside out" semi-free post-bop recordings with Dolphy, Hill, Hutcherson, etc I can imagine Brown filling a similar niche

I didn't realize this was the only footage of Brown known to survive - it's from Soupy Sales's variety show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iuP3CfFZDQ

And check out the comments - five years ago, one of Brown's nephews wrote that this YouTube upload was the first time he ever heard his uncle speak (when he talks with Sales at the very end). It's even more sad given that Brown talks about the birth of his son.

Damn, I didn't know that, crazy. Maybe because he didn't get a chance to tour Europe? It seems like that's where most of the well-recorded video footage of earlier jazz comes from, Euro tv shows and filmed concerts.

Quick plug in for The Sounds of Sonny, 1957 on Riverside: it's not as essential as Way Out West, but has a similar funky sound, a pianoless track, and a solo track.

When my dad interviewed James Brown. (Downbeat 1968) pic.twitter.com/cHQet19P4e

— Fitz Gitler (@techdef) January 16, 2023

an amusing little snippet of The Godfather having very wrong opinions on Rollins

Maybe James changed his tune a few years later, because on “Super Bad, part 2” JB exhorted saxophonist Robert McCollough to “Blow me some Trane!” which McCollough duly did, not exactly adhering to the chords.

At 4:00 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV9a3tUPqTo

i'm not reading that extract as being particularly anti-rollins -- JB says he doesn't play melodies, which, well, definitions, and he says others can't follow him all the way bcz he's weird, and he says he JB dug that other stuff but beethoven couldn't have figured out the changes (which tbf is probably true!)

if it was middle-aged beethoven you'd have to notate it for him and he probably would be confused!

And Sonny Rollins could never have the harmonic & rhythmic focus and minimalism necessary to sustain the funk. Good thing we can enjoy them both!

whoa whoa, I'm not so sure about that. Sonny was capable of anything!

I thought things could get pretty funky (in a *Rolling* way),along with R&B & Caribbean, on some of his 70s-80s albums, esp. Nucleus (incl. Darryl Blackbird McKnight and Chuck Rainey), also Sunny Days, Starry Nights.

*Rollins*, I meant, but Rolling too, always.

He had the calypso thing, but they had very different visions of infinity. Or perhaps...not so different after all?

THE NOTEBOOKS OF SONNY ROLLINS came out today from NY Review Books

at a glance, there's nothing to dispel the idea that he is a mad genius

Phew, thought we'd lost him there.

every time this thread is revived

#musingsofmiles #bouncingofbach

Just finished Saxophone Colossus and listening to his entire discography.

It’s now a challops but the Milestone run is better than its reputation and I quite enjoyed The Solo Album even if that one has not been rehabilitated.

Saxophone Colossus the book, that is

had to look up which albums are milestone

I think nucleus and global warming are pretty great but I haven't heard most of the others. I heard bad things from jazz nerds which I took too seriously when I was young and insecure about being into jazz so I'm sure there's lots to uncover

I heard the solo album maybe once as a teen and found it boring because it wasn't accessible hard bop or extreme free jazz so I didn't understand the point of it

I'll link to the three long things I wrote about Sonny in the '70s, which I'm sure are upthread somewhere:

Part 1, Part 2, Part 3

More on the Notebooks of Sonny Rollins

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/18/books/review/notebooks-of-sonny-rollins.html

I'm not a huge fan tbh, but I'm listening to the 40 minute version of 'Four' and it certainly is something (mostly a monument to the rhythm section, sustaining that level of swing and energy and attention at the same tempo for that long).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KCDJtiY8sg

Also kind of amazing that it just keeps speeding up, lol

I'm not a huge fan tbh